UKC

Hello,
So I have over 20 various cams. They are a variety of makes including Wild Country friends (old style fixed bar and 'newer' flexible), a couple of Camalots, some others... All of them are over 10 years old (and some a lot older) but I am happy with the metal work... Aware that the slings need replacing.
My question is 'What is the currently the best advice on replacing the slings on my cams?'
If you don't know the best current advice, then may I ask 'What have you done similar that has proved successful?'
Many Thanks,
Jim

In reply to jimmccall:
You can't get it done by a third party in the E.U. because of the rules on modifying PPE, only the original manufacturer can do it, and if a cam is older than the recommended maximum life span specified for the metal parts (often 10 years) then they probably won't.

If you want sewn slings then the only option I am aware of is to send them to the U.S.

Or you could do it yourself...
http://www.kakibusok.plus.com/Equipment/ReslingCams/Resling.htm

In reply to jimmccall:
I used to regularly replace the slings on my older cams with lengths of coloured nylon tape, and use a tape knot, with plenty of overlap, to join them into a loop. Never had an issue, even fell on them. I'm still here.
I still have some WC replacement trigger wire repair kits which may be hard to find now.

Sadly if you send them back to the manufacturer you will most likely be told they are past their sell by date.

In reply to brianjcooper and EddInaBox:

Ok Guys, Thanks.
To Edd... the website did crop up in my online checks... But good to see it again, thanks. I was initially slightly suspicious with its 'death' reference but it gave me confidence that a 30cm sling was the way forward... and I haven't seen that technique in covering the sling before...
To Brian... I am glad you are still here and good to know this method works. Thanks for the info. I am guessing that the use of a sling looped through will be stronger but I don't actually know that to be true... I have used a pair of pliers to gently straighten the wires over the years and have never replaced them. I think you are correct that, if the manufacturers (and I suspect, many others) looked at them, then they would conclude they are past their sell/use by date (I know what you mean!). My only consolation is that most of the metalwork alongside it is in a similar state of being. Some of the nuts are looking less angular and more pebble-like... But like its owner... it is all still working and still getting up the routes...
Thanks to you both for your time,
Jim

In reply to jimmccall:

There is a guy called Mike who owns a repair shop called The Blue Light in Sisteron France. He will resling and repair cams, you'll have to dig a bit for contact information though.

In reply to Alex Riley: If you don't fancy sending it to Wild Country (who will break it and give you a generous discount on a replacement) or doing it yourself, why not get Bernie in Curry Village to do it next time you're in Yosemite? Sounds like a great excuse to go

In reply to Alex Riley:

Thanks, I am probably looking for the easier 'Don't send it abroad' option now but this is good to know,
Thanks,
Jim

In reply to pencilled in:

I like what you did there... After stating that I want an easier option... I read this and thought... Hmm Yosemite eh? Never been there... Better chat to the wife... I will need more cams, quickdraws and slings... I will need more kit... Then I went full circle and thought... I will need to train, better just update some of my old kit...D'oh! Vicious.
Got it logged though...
Thanks,
Jim

In reply to jimmccall:

I'm about two ticks away from using 60cm slings on mine tbh. More than likely with a bowline on a bight.

In reply to jimmccall:

Do not send them to Wild Country. They will not only refuse to re-sling them they will refuse to give them back to you. They will tell you that they are not allowed to return them. That's what happened with a pile of mine. I was really pissed off.

In reply to jimmccall:

I used 5.5mm marlow cord when reslinging mine and it seems to have worked fine and is cheap and easy to do. Needlesports and Dicks climbing both stock it.

In reply to ericinbristol:

That's just taking the piss, don't blame you for being unimpressed.

Wild Country can't (or won't) re-sling even brand new WC cams any more. Don't think I'll be buying any of their gear any time soon.

In reply to zimpara:

Not entirely sure what you mean... Could you clarify?
Jim

In reply to Andrew W: (and ericinbristol)

Thanks for the replies.

In reply to jimmccall:



Don't take anything Zimp says seriously

In reply to Andrew W:

Pure 5mm dyneema (white cord) also exists (and Beal also do a 5.5mm dyneema-core cord in purple). If using dyneema core tie at least triple fishermans. Honestly, I can't remember if that advice is for the dyneema-core, nylon outer or pure dyneema or both, but it doesn't hurt either way... Dyneema is very abrasion resistant, strong and slippery.

In reply to Woolly:

Thanks... Judging my the number of likes, your opinion is well validated... I have noticed a certain feature of Zimpara's commentary over time but thought it only polite to take all responses on face value... at least in the first instance. I am sure he was just trying to jolly us along and raise a smile... although I have to admit, whatever his meaning, it completely eluded me. Time may tell.
Jim

In reply to Andrew W:
Genuine question ... is tied 5.5 cord going to be as strong as old tape?
Unless the tape is worn I think I'd keep it on.
B.

In reply to Hay:
I've got some 5mm Kevlar cord on one or two of mine - something like this. https://www.mec.ca/en/product/4012-641/5mm-Techcord
I can't remember the maths exactly but I looked into it when I was a real Captain Busy about safety and it was ok.

In reply to jimmccall:
I'm crossing off the days on a little private calendar in my mind.

In reply to jimmccall:
For rigid and wire stem with forged eyes poke a thin, sewn 6 or 8mm sling through the old hole, either clip both ends or arrange a sort of larksfoot as simply as you can. Check for sling running over sharp edges, rub them down if it's a problem. For sling running over wire designs replace the slings like for like or clip direct to the wire with a QuickDraw. Works for me. No guarantee obviously.
Jk

In reply to jkarran:
People seriously don't like zimpy if you can give that sort of advice and be fine, and I give half as risque advice and get slammed. Funny thing is the internet.

Ps got no problem with your advice. It does a job.

(Jim) if you dont know what I'm talking about then let me refer you to this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYxgupaW4Fw&

In reply to jimmccall:

I sent a rack of camalots I'd been building over the years that I no longer trusted to black diamond in the states, I was honest about age and use, they reslung all of them, repaired trigger wires and posted them back free of charge.

I did check before I sent them that black diamond would do this, some cams were 13 years old. Cost me about £25 for the postage. Seemed really good customer service to me.

The wild country issue may be with insurance, I don't think they make their cams, therefore the may not be able to check them to a competent standard?

In reply to zimpara:

Hello,
Apologies, it is not my intention to offend. I have watched the video link and am still not the wiser... Specifically, re your comment...
'I'm about two ticks away from using 60cm slings on mine tbh. More than likely with a bowline on a bight.'

I read this as a bit of a 'tongue in cheek, raise a smile' comment in the style of many of your posts. If I am wrong then please tell me what you mean. If I am right, then I can only hope that my comments haven't offended you and apologise. Either way, I don't think we need to fall out over it.
I hope you have a good New Year.
Jim

In reply to jkarran: (and jonnie3430)

Good to know, thanks for your responses.
Jim

In reply to jonnie3430:


About a year ago someone asked them and the response was that they didn't own the sewing machines to do it any more.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=628405&v=1#x8169703

In reply to zimpara:

The bowline on the bight thing is not "half as risque" as the larksfoot jkarran is suggesting (though it does strike me as a bit odd to use a 60cm sling for that). Both are compromises - bodges that may or may not be perfectly good enough, which therefore require judgement and understanding on the part of anyone deciding to use them.

I think the main reason you get slammed is your many other posts and threads suggesting you're so clueless that frankly you offering advice to anyone, on anything to do with climbing, just smacks of hubris - the living embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

It's more to do with UKC being a forthright forum and somewhat grumpy about that kind of thing than to do with the internet being funny in general.

In reply to EddInaBox:

Indeed. Which is less than impressive from a manufacturer of technical gear imo, even if they do outsource the bulk of the manufacturing.

There's no excuse for refusing to return cams sent to them in error though. (See ericinbristol's post above.) That's just piss-poor customer (lack of) service.

edit: SPaG

In reply to zimpara:

Risqué: replacing the slings on your cams with stockings and suspender belts.

Risky: replacing the slings on your cams with a sling without knowing which designs of cam the method is appropriate for and which will likely cause the sling to fail at significantly less than its rated load.

Reslinging cams has been done to death on here and other fora, for those that know the issues jkarran's post shows that he understands them too; the advice is good even though he hasn't elaborated on the underlying reasons. Your post does not demonstrate any depth of knowledge.

In reply to Hay:

I would strongly suspect new 5.5mm dyneema core or 5mm pure dyneema would be much stronger than old tape... for a start slings get much weaker as they get fluffier as in that classic BMC demonstration where a sling rubbed on a rock for a bit is weaker than a sling cut half way through...

figures from
http://www.beal-planet.com/img/cms/sport/Tableau/cordonette-2EN.jpg
for Beal accessory cord (figure in brackets when used as a sling):
5mm nylon: 6.5 kN (9.5 kN)
pure 5mm dyneema: 12 kN (15 kN)
5.5mm dyneema core: 18 kN (20 kN **)
6mm nylon: 8.1 kN (12 kN)
7mm nylon: 11.7 kN (16.8 kN)
8mm nylon: 15.3 kN (22 kN)

so the 5mm or 5.5mm core is plenty strong enough as a sling (triple fishermans recommended by me) and stronger than 7mm cord.

That said it does need to be checked carefully, and regularly, for abrasion - but this is equally true of the skinny 8/9mm slings often used on new cams...

** this is with 'quadruple pecheur' which translates literally as 'quadruple fishermans' according to Google, but I assume is actually double fishermans? The strength may be higher with a triple fishermans if I am right; I vaguely remember some failure mode involving slippage of the sheath through the knot on the slippery core or something. Also the diagram shows a double fishermans, so I don't know why they even say it - perhaps because they advise using a triple fishermans on this cord?

edit: http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/49/cthsc/cthsc.html
yes, I think it is a specific failure mode of the mixed cords (but not something to worry about. Just tie a triple fishermans!)

(interestingly, but on another topic, Beal recommend 7mm nylon or 5.5mm dyneema core for prusiks; they specifically advise against using 5mm for 'self-locking knots' which I assume means friction knots due to the low melting temperature of dyneema, 145 C)

In reply to jonnie3430:
Which is what you would expect from BD. 1week into my first trip to Yosemite, the penny dropped that there is simply no benefit to owning friends over camalots, not a single one.

In reply to andrewmcleod:


I don't think any of this is to do with the strength of the sling on it's own, it's the design of the cam and how the sling sits under load. There are plenty of articles and video's out there on this topic and I think the bottom line is unless you are an expert you should only replace them with equivalent slings. I suspect replacing the sown sling with a knot is likely to be okay but again it's hard to be 100% sure without proper load testing.

Personally I'd use the excuse to buy shiny new cams, but then I'm not on as tight as budget as some.

In reply to springfall2008:
Agree, esp on cams with thumb loops.
Personally I would not use 5.5mm on them ... it will stretch the loop and probably cut the cord. Camalots have that double-loop configuration on the sling for a reason.

Unless the slings were bleached or abraded I would still reckon on them being strong enough. They sling itself will have been 22kn to start with.

In reply to Hay:


No, the cord will probably cut the thumb loop cable........Camalots have that double-loop configuration on the sling for a reason.

I was only commenting on the relative strength of the cord/old tape and was only really thinking about rigid friends; I would be much more nervous doing it (even with big fat tape) on Camalots/flexible friends etc...

I would probably still do it (actually I would just buy new cams, but let's ignore that for a minute) but I would either beef up the cable loop with some kind of metal tubing or make sure there were many loops of the cord and work out some way to equalize them. Then I would decide it was a deathtrap and throw it away :P

It is highly unlikely you will ever get any DIY repair 'signed off' as safe, as it were, after all

In reply to andrewmcleod:

No real need with a thumb loop though, it's big enough to clip with a carabiner or attach a sling with a maillon.

I still have a few of the first model Camalots on my rack - they were sold without any kind of sling on them in the first place. You just clipped into them with a QD, same as a nut.

In reply to scott titt:

BD lab has the result the other way round but I think both are likely/possible.
No matter either way. Broke is broke!

Bruce

In reply to jimmccall:

In the States it's pretty easy to send cams off for reslinging. Lot's of third parties will do that for you.
For you folks in the EU, here's something that I've thought about but have not tried.

On the BD thumbloop Camalots (and maybe some other cams) the manufacturer uses a double loop configuration to "pad" the cable and prevent damage/distortion. Some tests by DMM and suggestions by Chris Tan seem to indicate that a basket hitch sling would work. But, what if you were to tie a sling with a water knot and leave one tail long enough to make the double loop? Maybe use a TieWrap cable tie or a bit of hand stitching to keep in in place?

Don't know. Like I said, here it's easy to send cams back for reslinging.

In reply to zimpara:


Fixing a sling in place as you suggest with a bowline would be plenty strong enough but it's rather pointless and has the down sides that once the knot is set in place the high wear areas can never move and a cam on a sling long enough to form that knot would be a clunky pain in the arse (or kneecaps).

I guess I get away with making this suggestion because it's what I've been climbing and falling on for years. I know from practical experience it works but also I recognise and acknowledge its potential weaknesses: sling on unfinished edges, stem/eye bending load or risk of cocking up clipping both loops. Nothing is perfect but luckily good enough will do.
jk