UKC

Hi, 

I'm looking to find the biggest snap gate carabiner I can, ideally something as big as the dmm shadow ( https://dmmwales.com/professional-products/alloy-connectors/shadow-hms )  as a snap gate/ wire gate. 

It's for the "looping tie offs" method of rope management when multi pitch sport climbing. http://www.climbingtechniques.org/rope-management.html

Thanks.

Wow... sometimes you do see overthinking in action on these forums!

1. Don't use this method, just flake the rope over your tie in.

2. No. Just.... no.

3. Or... if you really must... don't tie knots and flake it through a sling instead.

If it's just for hanging rope and gear off, how about a Petzl Caritool? Big and lightweight.

But I have to agree with C Witter, I wouldn't ever carry special gear just to manage the rope at stances. Just flake it into a sling.

Maybe someone else will come along with a helpful response later which answers the question I asked, rather than giving their unwanted views on rope management techniques?

This looks pretty big:

https://www.climbers-shop.com/climbing-equipment/non-locking-carabiners/cli...

If it's for non weight bearing purposes you can get really big carabiners from Amazon for about £5

The Grivel Carryabiner https://grivel.com/collections/carabiners/products/carryabiner is pretty much the identical size and shape as a DMM shadow.

That's pretty condescending pal. Each to their own. It's not my go-to either but there might be a good reason for James opting for this. 

To the OP:

Have you looked at kayaking wiregates? They're large (to clip a paddle) and some are fully rated. 

Alternatively, as someone's said, the large Caritool (petzl ice clipper) might be even larger I think, and v light, but you might prefer to only take up stuff that is fully rated (that would certainly be my preference).

Sometimes the best advice on here is the stuff you didn't ask for. That's the beauty of web forums.

Another condascending piece of advice, but I don't think this will work for multipitch sport as you'll need to be unknotting the loops as the leader climbs, and hopefully climbing quickly.  It would be fine on a slow moving big wall ascent, but I wouldn't be comfortable with my second doing this just as I was calling for slack

In thirty years of climbing I've never seen anyone do what your link describes. Isn't it it just going to be a huge amount of hassle tying and later untying all those knots? Why would you do that rather than flake the rope over the sling/connector between you and the belay? Metolius even has a widget to make the latter at least theoretically easier https://rockrun.com/products/metolius-rope-hook?variant=31453863176

I've got a couple of the huge DMM HMS Shadow screwgates by the way. I got mine when R&R were selling them cheap a few years back and they come with special "helicopter proof" screwgates - supposedly more vibration resistant. But anyway, they are very nicely made, I don't see why you would need a snap gate or wire gate one to do what you want to do. Just fully unscrew (open) the screw gate. It stays there, then you can just use it as a snap gate to put your knots of spare rope onto. That would also have the advantage that when you try the system and find its a massive hassle and not worth the effort, you'll have a good quality, large HMS screwgate krab that you can now use on belay masterpoints and the like.

search "scaffold carabiner"

Beal also do have something called the Ringo,

I have used a large screw gate in the past (Williams) as mentioned above and works well but then you can't use it for anything else as it's tied up in this system 

More techniques discussed in this post. 

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/rope-belay-wrangling

Fair enough. I've used it a lot on steep-ish multi pitch day routes (sport climbing) and have had no issue. Likewise for partners using this system as I lead.

I thought that, but most "scaffolding hooks" have a sort of double action to the gate which would be a pain in the proverbial for this use, oh and they'd be super heavy.

However, they can be pretty huge though

No, as I just said in my previous post I've used it a lot multi pitch sport climbing after being taught it by a very experienced friend. I find it fine to tie/ retie. It's also a cleaner system than the stacking the rope over you method and easier to swap the ropes over if you are block leading (all you need to do is unclip, flip the knots and reclip). I've never used it trad climbing. 

As for the HMS point - yes, fair point, maybe more multifunctional. 

I use this method relatively frequently. I like it.

I typically carry a couple of Camp Photons with me to use in the belay and I find that they are good for this. I can fit a decent number of loops on a Photon that's already part of the belay. I carry the Photons because they're light (29g I think) and big as snapgates go.

To the various doubters up thread, give it a go, you might like it. Tying and untying the knots is very easy, they're just loose overhands. I've used it in the UK for trad and abroad for trad/sport/bigwall/ice, single rope and doubles, so can confirm that it does 'work'. Best on relatively steep routes imo. I probably have screwed my partner once or twice by forgetting to undo a knot, but I have also definitely screwed my partner in the past by getting a rope flaked though a sling or over a tether tangled, ymmv.

I think Peak and Climbing Technology make the kayaking carabiners I'm aware of

I’ve used this method quite a bit and in certain situations it’s really good. Can’t see why people knock something they haven’t tried, it’s not morris dancing 😉

I’ve found it good on steep routes with bolted anchors when either block leading or as a rotating leader 3 person team where there’s a lot of untying and retying nonsense going on. The longer I’m likely to be on a hanging stance (aid/hard climbing/general leader indecisiveness) the more appealing this system is. The best bit is that depending on which way up you flip the karabiner the knots can come off in a ‘first on first off’ or ‘first on last off’ order without unclipping or restacking anything.

I often use spare slingdraws on the anchor bolts instead of lockers (naughty naughty I know) and then if you put the anchor sling/cordalette into the top end the bottom loose end is free to gather the rope knots into. If I run out of space I just chuck another quickdraw onto somewhere and keep going. I’ve used an open big screwgate before and a kayaking biner that a mate used for his aiders but overall I found I didn’t like carrying extra heavy kit and just used multiple quickdraws.

YMMV and I can see the appeal of a big hms krab to keep them all together if there was a reason to have one with you anyway.

I'm going to have to give it a go now! 🙂 Multi pitch ice, where hanks of rope can get caught behind icicles below the belay is about the most serious place I can think of where you have to keep control of the rope, so I could see it's a useful technique there.

I did see these advertised on DMM's Instagram feed recently. https://dmmwales.com/professional-products/accessories/mega-vault The Mega Vault is pretty huge!

Fair enough, my bad. Sorry, I was in a flippant mood this morning! As someone else already said, Camp Photons are big, cheap and light.

When you tie and untie the knots do you not have to take your hands off the belay device?

Don't listen to the naysayers! 

I use this a lot on multi-pitch, expecially if doing any light pack hauling. My personal favourite is just using a ice screw clipper. (obviously it means it doesn't have a double use in emergency AND you need to be careful not to clip into it by mistake as its not rated) 

I've used a big HMS in the past and just find it less useful. 

Nope. It's a slip not, you can easily unclip it and either just drop it and hope the knot pulls (usually does), or with a bit of finger magic just one handedly untie it. 

A few years ago (well, probably over a decade) DMM made a big snapgate for winter/professional use called, if I remember rightly, the Eclipse. Might be worth having a hunt around for some of those - though I'm not sure they'd be any bigger than the Shadow HMS

I was taught this by an aspirant guide when climbing Astral Stroll as a rope of 3 with my young son in the middle. Very useful for keeping the ropes (2 pairs of 50m) tidy and out of the sea! I use it occasionally when appropriate ad find it much better than looping lengths of rope over my legs or belay ropes. However, I don’t see the need for a special crab I just use whatever is left over at the stance and when I run out of room on a crab, I just use another. 

https://www.inglesport.com/product/ct-kayak-karabiner/?gclid=CjwKCAjwitShBh...

https://www.go-kayaking.com/equipment/safety-rescue/2023-palm-equipment-wir...

Both are huge, and light. (I use them on cow's tails for mine exploration as they'll clip onto old ironmongery such as Victorian era fixed metal ladders.) I strongly suspect that the Palm branded one is actually made by CT as well.

Either design should meet the OPs requirements....

I have about half a dozen of those, the wiregate version, bought in 2005.  I don't use them now.  I'd happily pass a few on to the OP if they want to e-mail me through UKC.