UKC

Will it be any time soon? 

I heard November I'm afraid. 

The designer told me they were aiming for Easter time a few weeks ago, but these things easily get pushed back.

DMM time operates outwith the standard model

Thanks for the info! I can wait. 

Oct/Nov

Do you have a photo of the New Version of the DMM Switch? 

don't think anyone ia allowed to share

don't think anyone is allowed to share

see here.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/ots_2023_-_climbing_gear-761092?v=1#...

Here's a tease - link should work even without a LinkedIn account. Post is from the official DMM account so I believe it's safe to share.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dmm-international-engineering_fantastic-even...

Sounds like DMM Cortex might be the new name. Interesting whether this replaces the Switch or if there will also be an updated Switch (and Apex) with Cortex being a new and more specialised third technical axe.

Also interesting that they seem to be going all red across all axes...

So it is CNC!

I hope the replacement is lighter than the switch. To plagiarise something else i once read; "only Thor can lift the Switch..."

and a thing of beauty by the looks of it. If only I winter climbed hard enough and regularly enough to warrant a pair!

I hope it's not too flexy (Cryo) but not too stiff (green Fusion). Not sure there is an advantage to one piece axes, the head on my old Nomics are still going strong after I glued them back on. Guess it removes doubt that the manufacturer does a good job.

Slight whiff of the Rebel about them - Lara's going to need to upgrade (and they really should have called them the Raider as a nod to the cosplayers).

Though they also look a wee bit reminiscent of the e-climb axes you could use as an emergency belay plate. 

Thanks. The photo is a real tease. 

I had a set and while there was nothing really wrong with them they just didn't feel that nice.

Not sure where you got that the Cryos are Flexi, mine as stiff as anything compared to Nomic, ergonomics, aspeeds...

CNC would make sense, they can take so much more abuse than a tubular design in my experience, though I'm still yet to test the ergonomics I just bought, maybe the hydro-forming is more robust. I found basing in terriers and bulldogs destroys the nomic and dreams. The only thing I'd say that CNC can be heavy and needs a very good design to be well balanced, which by the looks in the picture DMM have done. Only test riding will tell how good they are. DMM always fails to deliver in terms of axes, good but not good enough to replace they mainstays axes in the market. They always seem to play catch up with other manufacturers, hopefully maybe this is different. What I can say is that the pic looks suitably underwhelming but I assume they have taken the "3rd party supplier" approach as most people now buy higher standard picks from elsewhere

I agree but also, not necessarily, the Entheos II for example comes in at 580g per axe, a hair lighter than the Nomic for example, and swings pretty much the same.

Indeed, but then we need a third party to actually manufacture them!

Out of curiosity, what do you look for in a pick shape? I don't have a lot of experience winter climbing so when it comes to details on pick shapes and features I'm not really sure what to look for. Are you able to expand on why the pick in the image is underwhelming? (Genuine question as I've been thinking about pick shapes recently, especially when it comes to sharpening/filing/modifying them.)

Well it depends for what's being used for. For Scottish mixed is durability and that DMM looks like basic alloy, rather than ballistic steel like Krukonogi or the new Grivel Katana steel. If it's for high end mixed and ice then it would also the stiffness of the steel but also the teeth geometry and bevelled nose for minimal ice displacement, something like the old cool water-jet cut E-climb picks or the sport-steinle ones, although there are plenty of third party suppliers now I haven't kept up with. I mean Petzl standard ones are not the best either don't get me wrong, they try and make them as cheap as possible to keep the RRP  low I guess. 

Sure, but how many DMM Switch do you see in the Scottish hills? I wouldn't go as far as saying the nomics are bombproof but with the head issues mostly resolved it seems to be the go to tool (or so it seems when I'm out anyways). I assume the ergonomics will grow their market share for Scotland too (we are talking the upper bracket of tools where the new DMM will live). I love DMM, I hope the new tool does well, but they have lost valuable years of market ingress (as opposite of the Nomics, which were an amazing tool from the get go, so had years to get into people's mind) by having a mediocre Switch. I got contacted by a DMM person years ago before they launched the Switch, I gave them some feedback, mainly around the weight and handle, but didn't implement it because the tool was basically designed already. I was not surprised it didn't do well, it looked outdated the day it was launched. I hope they do sort the handle out and weight distribution this time around. 

The wobbling heads have now been replaced by snapping handles...

It would be nice to see a tool that's durable enough for Scottish winter all whilst feeling nice to swing (the Nomic is admittedly hard to beat).

These ones: https://barooders.com/products/piolets-eclimb-com-cryo-2-gris?variant=46486...

like a noodle. I had a pair. First time ai used them we laughed how flexi they were. I also had Nomics as a comparison.

If you mean snapping pommel, it is really obvious not to clip a tether to it and expect it to survive a weighted fall. I guess they shouldn't have made it clipable in any way.. I've only seen one other broken handle (at the base of the shaft) with no context If I recall.

Try the X-Dream but a get a decent pick for them, the ones they come with are too fine for Scottish climbing. Weird thing about the X-Dream is that because the head is thinner that the Nomic you can get them into way more cracks, way more than would seem reasonable.

I mean, Petzl fixed the head problem (that their returns department spent years saying didn’t exist) but made the historically most secure part of an axe break easier than the average leash.

I witnessed one plummet off a crag just last week after someone slipped onto their tool and snapped the pommel clean off. Switches may be heavy but my pair lasted 5 seasons and almost every winter route I did in that period (30 a season average). I can’t imagine a Nomic lasting even half of that? The switches have now gone onto a new owner who will keep using them. They aren’t the most delightful to climb with but as a long term investment they are hard to beat, especially when the average winter climber can’t afford to replace tools every seasons or two or be without while Petzl tell you why your warranty isn’t valid. 

I've got a pair of X-Dream Alpines now and with the hammer on, I’ve been mighty impressed with their durability so far. 

You are also correct with the broken handle comment as well, regardless of the pommel. There have been instances of the shaft snapping clean off the handle on the new ergos. I had posted a photo not so long ago but cant seem to find it now. Same issue also with the dark machines though, so its not just a petzl problem.

Sure, but people still buy them and use them for Scotland more than DMM's. It was my point about gaining the market share early on.

I've climbed all my grade IX and M13's with those and don't find them flex at all, I find them super precise and take all the abuse in the world. not sure what you mean. Best tool ever!

No one is arguing with that, but I still see more nomics in Scotland than Switches, in fact I never seen one in the wild (mind I still yet to do a grade V, and only done one VI). Hopefully the new DMM model will change that. Luckily my nomic are first gen so they are amazing once I put a bolt t through the head. 15 years and still going strong. But yes further gens were rubbish. And yet still people prefer that than the Switches... 

Given all the issues I can't understand why people keep buying Nomics now that some of the alternatives have caught up or even surpassed them in terms of climbing feel.

Thought I'd jump in to do my part as a DMM fanboy. Their axes may not be the most popular, but they are impressively durable and I think they perform brilliantly, particularly for Scottish style mixed. I've tried quarks, nomics, x-dreams, x-all mtns, vipers, fuels, the machine 3.0s, tech machines, and a bunch of others. For scottish III to VI I reckon the Apex is in the running for best in class, and it would certainly be my first choice. I've also bought a pair of switches and have been enjoying them a lot. They are heavy, but I have sawed the hammer and adze off mine and done away with the pick weights. While that hasn't removed too much weight, the weight that has been removed is far from the centre of rotation when swinging, so it has drastically changed the balance and makes them much less tiring to swing around. For bulldogs etc. I just smash them in with the side of the axe, and I doubt I'll manage to do enough damage to the aluminium head that way to reduce their lifetime. I love how solid they feel in horizontal torques. With a full weight glove I find the handle holds the hand in really nicely, and there are no concerns about durability whatsoever (unlike other manufacturers). For steeper stuff, X-Dreams are my favourite in terms of performance (and also under-represented in Scotland), but my "diet" switches are bomber and perform well. I hope the switch will be remembered as a design which, though heavy, is good across the board with uncompromising durability.

I'm pretty excited to see DMM's latest creation. I hope they have brought down the weight, taken some notes from the X-Dream for the feel, and made no compromises on durability.

Having had a play (not on a route) with the new DMM Cortex that could be about to change, I'm not a winter expert but I was super impressed. The new Switch seemed like a massive improvement too. Roll on winter 2024/25

I'm pretty certain Caroline George the mountain guide snapped a Nomic last winter - probably saw it on her instagram https://www.instagram.com/carolinewaregeorge/ 

Found it: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cl1_yYtPu7O/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&ig... and she reports it's the second one she has broken! 

Her most recent post is climbing in Scotland, so she can see if she can break what ever the replacement is over here!

So there's going to be a new Cortex, and a new Switch? And a new Apex too?

no, the Cortex replaces the Switch and the Apex is updated. For easier gullies/mountaineering etc the already available Vertex is nice too

Gotcha, thanks. Are you able to share any more details? I'm interested in what might change about the Apex.

Obviously no worries if you've been asked not to disclose, I can be patient...

There’s a short video of the cortex? tool on the IG account of the Norwegian DMM distributors (xcsportsequipment)

https://www.instagram.com/xcsportsequipment/

Nice, good find. Interesting to see even less of a 'spike' than the Switch. I do note the red metal exposed in the bottom... I wonder if there will be some kind of optional spike?

For those on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2NZjK3qu-k/?igsh=d3N3dHdycDY2dW9s

Great to hear. No one is doubting DMMs quality here, we all agree they are bombproof. And perhaps therein lies the problem, that most people prefer sacrificing a bit of the robustness for a bit more versatility. Just a thought. The new model looks great I'll admit, but there a design choices that might hinder its popularity. For starters there's no pick weight, which for me is essential in continental ice and mixed, specially on seam cracks were the weight jams in nicely. Second the grip rest is non-adjustable, which can be a deal breaker for girls with small hands or blokes with massive hands. It doesn't bother me btw, but might affect buyers choice. I think the points above were that the lack of appeal perhaps is their lack of versatility. Maybe people still buying more Nomics in the chance that they go to Europe to do some ice, in which case the switches have nothing on the nomics. But question remains, if they are the most specialised tool for Scotland how come there are so few about in Scotland? They should be ubiqutous like the Wallnuts. Anyways good discussion, I don hope they do well, I'd love to try them out.

I don't necessarily disagree with the points you make, but I thought people might read this thread and condemn all DMM climbing axes. There is room for improvement and I am excited to try the latest iterations, but in my opinion DMM have done an awesome job. That said, climbing ice is a weak point for the switch. I mean, it works fine (and certainly better than I expected) but if you only ever climbed ice you would choose something else. The handle size is an important factor that I think is overlooked. Two of my climbing partners have a pair of aztars which they have kept because the handle fits small hands. They're pretty rubbish to climb with, but options are limited. I like the all-in-one handle with the switch, and I wouldn't want DMM to sacrifice durability for reconfigurability. However, I would love to see them offer the handle in a couple of sizes. And the pick weights on the apex/switch are great for the reason you gave- slightly nut shaped for crack placement. That's the feature I miss most after taking off my pick weights. It'll be a shame if that feature is gone with the cortex. As for the appeal, it's really hard to try tools out before buying them so popularity is presumably based on reputation. It seems likely that one or two internet reviews or forums backed nomics as "the best" or "revolutionary" and that others were consigned to the rubbish heap of mild praise, fairly or otherwise.

I think it's more that they were the best and revolutionary when they came out. That established a market dominance which is difficult to shift and not helped by the fact that it took other manufacturers a while to catch up.

It's very good you like DMM, good on you, but I think you are taking this too personal relating to your own experience. No one is condemning DMM tools as you say, we are discussing as to why they are not more popular in Scotland since they are a British tool and should be ubiquitous in UK, like nomic are France, xdreams in Italy and BD's in US/Canada. Yet in UK people might still prefer say Nomics even if they might shit. Why is that? I just find it interesting how the whole climber buyer psyche works. I know of about 20 climbers that climb VII and above and only one uses DMM (Tim Neil), most use Nomics, Ergos or Ergonomics and some, but a lot less, Grivel and BD split equally. So DMM has some deep mindsets to fight against in the market. 

I think Tim just doesn't like spending money

He seemed to like the new axes though and certainly put them through their paces last winter.

Having re-read my response, some of my comments which were intended to sound tongue in cheek/exaggerated for humour come across as stand-offish- this was unintended and my apologies on that front. I love the fact that on UKC forums a simple question like the one posted by the OP can lead to a treasure trove of information. These discussions become a great record of information which someone else is likely to find when searching for (often hard to find) information on a particular topic. I certainly use UKC forums a lot when looking for niche product information. In this thread, not only can you find out when the new axes are expected to be released, you can find photos of them in action, videos showing the design, linkedin posts from the company, pros and cons of these designs compared to prior iterations and alternative options, a rationale of why we perhaps don't see many previous designs out and about in Scotland, anecdotes and evidence regarding the performance/reliability of these and other axes, insights into product testing for climbing equipment manufacturers and much more. All of this is information (to which Ramon has contributed significantly, btw) is going to be awesome for the next person who stumbles across it looking for info on the new axes. This may well be the most comprehensive collection of information on the DMM Cortex anywhere in the public domain. A reasonable question for someone interested in the DMM Cortex may be "what's the general consensus on DMM's ice axes?", and my impression from reading through the thread was that DMM's previous offerings were lacking (well deserved) praise. After all, they are the best thing since DMM pyjamas.

One question I have for the hive mind relates to product testing and R&D. Does anyone know what budgetary constraints there are on prototyping ice axes for a company like DMM? I'm less interested in the money side, more on how many prototypes and design iterations are possible between product releases? How many goes do they have to make a better tool?

I don't know how many iterations, but Peter has been working on the design for 5-6 years.

I don't know either, but I would imagine 3D printing and CNC machining would make it pretty cheap to prototype. My friend just got his own design of handle for the Xdreams to fit his hands  using 3D printing prototyping and CNC stock Alu and wasn't expensive at all for what I remember. So for someone like DMM using CNC for the shaft you could build endless, really accurate samples I guess. I noticed on the Cortex the left a lump close under the pick I assume to help with the swing and counterbalance not having a pick weight, probably that came out of 3D modelling and then testing maybe. I would love to give the cortex a good test see how they perform. 

So handle size is an odd on, If you look at the BD Reactor, Edelrid Rage II, Cassin X-Dream, the handles do not adjust for size. In the BD and Edelrid there are some pointless plastic inserts that go in above your hand that do nothing. On the X-Dream the pinky rest adjust by about 2mm but the handle size doesn't adjust, so overall I'm not worried that the DMM doesn't adjust. This is an issue for people with big hands though for sure. Looking at the photo DMM have kept the second handle nice and low on the shaft which is really stable for hand changes on marginal placements so excellent for Scotland. Grivel and to some extent the new Nomic (caveat I've not used it) have allow the second handle to creep up the shaft which is excellent if you're yarding between drilled holds at a Euro DT crag but not so good in the wild. 

If you want a technical axe for small hands try getting the old Edelrid Rage, definitely the smallest handle I've seen but getting hard to find.

Which bit do you mean is pointless?

Oh yeah. I took them off mine immediately and forgot about them. I also took the pick weights off as well and was wondering the other night where I put them. Must be the same place as those plastic bits! 😆

I suppose the idea is that if you want a slightly more closed in feeling around your hand you can keep those bits there, but yeah, I take your point, I'm not really sure they would make much difference for small handed people.

Makes you wonder doesn't it. Those rages looked really good but there's no way I'm buying another pair of axes for the next couple of years.

I really hope there is the option for a spike on these, I find it almost essential on a tool. Fingers crossed because these look epic!

To change the subject slightly I've been lucky to play around with the new Black Diamond Fusions, which are very nice. Takes the best bits of the Nomic's and improves them. If I weren't tied into Petzl tools I would consider switching. 

Interesting, that. What do you find them essential for?  I was pleased to see the rounded bottom to the handle as I personally hate spikes, to the point where I've cut them off my beloved x-dreams.  For the purposes of a walking support in hard snow turning the axe upside down and using the serrations on the top of the pick gives adequate grip for me.  It does look like DMM have a left a few metal serrations on the handle though.  

Anyone else see the below?

The tools look very funky but anyone else think Ms Harrington should get her heels down a bit? ;⁠-⁠)

If you look at the background the photo is quite substantially tilted!

It's funny, I did notice that, but even twisting my phone, her heels are still up. I suspect more boringly the real answer is her feet are on neve, so her feet are very securely in, and it doesn't really matter if you pull up on tippy toes to eyeball your next placement. Before anyone tells me, I know Brette Harrington is a very strong climber on ice as well as rock.

So is there going to a new Switch, and the Cortex coming in as the Ergonomic/Reactor more aggressive version? Or is the Cortex replacing the Switch?

Cortex is replacing the switch, apex is getting a facelift 

Good find, thanks for posting. The heels up/down comment seems unnecessary though.

This looks like a new pick for the Cortex. Interesting how they don't feel wed to a certain design unlike say BD who are still using the same design since way back.  

Any info on the Apex updates?

I'm guessing/hoping that they're going to make technical picks compatible across the Cortex, Apex, Vertex models, as per Petzl Sum'Tec/Quark/Nomic etc.

No idea, probably just a colour change

Yeah. That is strange… IIRC BD has kept the technical tool pics attachment the same ever since the X-15. DMM has changed the pick fastening 2 or 3 times already. That being said Grivel has done it like 4 or 5 times… and Petzl Atleast once.

Of course it might be good good for business (your old spares will not work with the new tool). But I do not like that kind of designer end-of-life approach, especially for hardgoods with replacable wearing parts.

CNC is certainly a great option for making a bunch of slightly different tools. The flexibility is partly why this would be a good design to make a couple of different handle sizes for- just load a modified file to the CNC router. On the other hand, compared to tubular aluminium the raw material requirements will be way higher- they will be generating a mountain of aluminium swarf! It's also a slightly awkward shape- you would basically need to start with a sizable (500x200x50?) plate and cut the vast majority away. Or perhaps they cut out or forge the basic shape and then CNC out the details. They should be able to recycle swarf which should bring raw material costs down a bit. But I would have thought the raw material costs involved in prototyping would be significant, even if the cost to amend the design is extremely low. In terms of 3D printing, it would be epic to throw an ice axe design into a powder bed laser sintering 3D printer with a material like titanium... But expensive, I imagine!

That photo really shows the curvature of the tools. They look extremely aggressive to me!

I have an old Quad pick on my Nomics at the moment. Just needed to cut the hammer attachement off. Bolt holds/angles were the same. Same with the latest Grivel picks, I have just ordered a bunch of the Dry+ picks and will simply cut the + bit off and forego the Vario attachment.

Yeah, I was trying to remember the X15. The picks used to have a bash area above the head for hammering into Ice and still had the current attachement method showing you how old it is. It does work though so why change it but it does mean the are still using steel in the head correct me if I'm wrong? One disadvantage with the Reactor is that you have to replace the alloy plate with a steel hammer plate which is quite alot of weight for adding what is in the end a small hammer. There current pick are seriously expensive as well, 20% more than most others.

X-15. Are out earlier, but Black Prophet came out in 2002… so DB has not changed the pick attachment in over 20 years… 

As for the pick costs… who buys the ones from the manufacturer? Aftermarket ones are often better and cheaper. Granted Berg-Steile is spendy (~70 a pop), but it is also the same for all brands. And Kuznia are a lot cheaper (seem to be in the ~25 a pop ballpark, so a few more eur than last time I ordered)…

ice climbing mansplained to Brette Harrington…ffs ukc 

I agree that the nomic must be pretty bloody good to continue to be the most popular technical tool despite having a glaringly obvious design flaw. I’ve climbed a few pitches borrowing friends and they are great. However I know at least four climbers who have had nomic handles fall apart whilst climbing, one person on multiple occasions. 

My personal view is that all modern ergonomic ice tools are pretty good and that the limiting factor of my climbing is not by a long shot going to be my ice axe. The logical conclusion to this is to just buy the switch since it’s the most durable. However…I just couldn’t get on with it mostly for the points that have been made above. I love the idea of the switch being a bomber axe, I just think it was not executed quite well enough and then went years and years without any attempts to bring it up to date. So I’m excited to see how the new Cortex is, and if they iron out the issues with weight and weight distribution I think they’re onto a winner! 

I thought the winking emoji might show I got that, but just in case I didn't, I did explain it the next post down. But, you're probably right, attempts at ironic humour often don't work very well when just written down. Meanwhile, back to the tools...

Black Prophets were from the mid 90s, I've still got a set in the loft. The X15 and the pick attachment design date all the way back to the 80s when it was still Chouinard Equipment.

I've also got picks from the 90s that I still use (very blunt) for scratching about in poor conditions. The sticky-out bit on top did make some sense when everyone carried axe + hammer so you could belt the axe in with the hammer if you were desperate for an anchor in turf or whatever. They started flattening it off around when the original Cobra came out, 1999/2000ish IIRC.

I’m just taking the piss Toby

Debating ice axe design is surely the apex of ukc forum content. As a slight side note, I’m also backing DMM as they’re the last company making ice axes in the UK since probably Mountain Technology went under in glencoe? Fingers crossed for the Cortex. 

Hmm, if I were a female I'd still think her heels were too high (you missed the pun there)..

You wrote, "...the nomic must be pretty bloody good to continue to be the most popular technical tool despite having a glaringly obvious design flaw."

What flaw are you referring to?  Do you mean 1) the old wobbly head issue, 2) the delicate nature of the pink rest, or 3) the very few known cases of the handle snapping? 

I'm not claiming any of these were not or are not a problem, but I'm just curious what you see as the "obvious design flaw."

Lots to be debated here.  For example, what tool is "safer"?  A tool that is durable but swings, sticks, and cleans poorly, or a tool that is less durable, but swing, sticks, and cleans really well? 

I climbed for many years on old black Nomics, then switched to X-Dream, now switched back to the new Nomics, mostly because of the overall balance and swing, and the subtle features of the grip, like the cross section where you hold the tool, the shape of the pinky rest, and the shape of the upper portion of the grip, which allows you to comfortably swing not only from the pinky but from the forefinger, giving you options to moderate the power. These kinds of ergonmic features are really important, and I don't think anbody has done it better than Petzl with the Nomic.

The new BD tools look nice...it will all depend on the swing.

I'm gladd DMM are making a unique tool again.  I really hope the suceed.  I love their products.

Here's a video demo

youtube.com/watch?v=ytCeOPZBI5E&

New Apex: https://www.instagram.com/stories/dmm_wales/3293863911689118594?utm_source=...

https://dmmwales.com/collections/ice-axes/products/cortex-pre-release

Aha! Awesome, thanks!

Brilliant, nice to see the modular pick and pick weights is confirmed. It’s still a shame they haven’t been able to add a spike but at least the cord attachment is neat. 
 

Do they look incredible, yes! Am I gonna get my hands on a pair and compare every minutiae to the Entheos II… absolutely 🤓

the design looks great 

weight comparison 

cortex 589g

nomic 585g

Looks like a very competitive tool, lots of good detail. Whilst I'm not loving the pure ice pick nose, that's easily corrected with a bit of filing. The other two picks actually looked better than what we seen before. The rest looks great, very neat cord system. It mentions pick weights but no other detail, I'm sure more will be revealed. Now let's hope people actually buy them.

Spikes are really handy on walking axes, pain in the butt for most other uses. Looks like you can get a crab through the handle and there is a nifty tie-in point if you must use a tether. 

This is the axe they should have come out with in 2008 after the Nomic was released. If I were to loose all my axes somehow and start again, I think this would be on the list but I would have to wait to test them. As it is the glued up Nomics are still going strong and the X-Dreams are there for serious stuff.

Exactly that!

Shame that given CNC is a very expensive way to manufacture chances are these will be very expensive unless DMM are willing to make a loss on them....

£700 a pair