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Currently in process of embracing soft shell concept - been reading too many andy k articles
Have discarded heavy duty gore-tex shell some years back in favour of go-anywhere pac-lites BUT now want to find a fleece replacement that is wind-proof and shower-proof (or better).
Anyway, tried quite a lot of soft shells on but struggling to get fit quite right. Whilst you can't help me with that, would appreciate your experiences as to which types work well for you in practice.
Thanks....
Have discarded heavy duty gore-tex shell some years back in favour of go-anywhere pac-lites BUT now want to find a fleece replacement that is wind-proof and shower-proof (or better).
Anyway, tried quite a lot of soft shells on but struggling to get fit quite right. Whilst you can't help me with that, would appreciate your experiences as to which types work well for you in practice.
Thanks....
In reply to JonC-unregistered:
Slow day at work today, seem to be answering all your messages!
I swear by Scholler soft shells. The latest 3Xdry material seems very good. Stretchy and hardwearing make them ideal for climbing. Best to fit fairly tight to help insulation and they are designed so that the heat of your body helps keep the garment dry inside. I prefer a non lined jacket so I can use it in more seasons, then wear a micro fleece underneath in winter. The same sort of trousers are also good, in fact, probably even more useful. Now no need for waterproof trousers. Usually take an additional windproof smock (lightest possible), in winter a paclite occasionaly.
I have a Cloudviel Serendipity jacket (only gripe is no hood) and Mammut base jump pants.
I don't like any soft shell based on a laminate e.g. gore windstopper, or with sealed seams for that matter. The loss of breathabilty for more wind/water resistance, defeats the object of soft shells for me. Pile/pertex garments may be worth a look, not tried them though.
Slow day at work today, seem to be answering all your messages!
I swear by Scholler soft shells. The latest 3Xdry material seems very good. Stretchy and hardwearing make them ideal for climbing. Best to fit fairly tight to help insulation and they are designed so that the heat of your body helps keep the garment dry inside. I prefer a non lined jacket so I can use it in more seasons, then wear a micro fleece underneath in winter. The same sort of trousers are also good, in fact, probably even more useful. Now no need for waterproof trousers. Usually take an additional windproof smock (lightest possible), in winter a paclite occasionaly.
I have a Cloudviel Serendipity jacket (only gripe is no hood) and Mammut base jump pants.
I don't like any soft shell based on a laminate e.g. gore windstopper, or with sealed seams for that matter. The loss of breathabilty for more wind/water resistance, defeats the object of soft shells for me. Pile/pertex garments may be worth a look, not tried them though.
In reply to JonC-unregistered: Bought a Macpac Matrix from R&R last year. Surprisingly wareproof, very breathable and totally windproof. Only wore a base layer under it in Glencoe in March. Carry a paclite smock and Marmot pertex/synthetic down top for belays.
Macpac was £90
Marmot was £40
Was also impressed with Mountain Hardwear jackets(can't remember the names), one has additional insulation. Around £120 mark.
Certainly would never spend daft money on a Gore tex shell again!
Macpac was £90
Marmot was £40
Was also impressed with Mountain Hardwear jackets(can't remember the names), one has additional insulation. Around £120 mark.
Certainly would never spend daft money on a Gore tex shell again!
In reply to JonC-unregistered:
I've got a variety of options.... (what, me, too much gear?)
Cheap & cheerful is a Berghaus windproof - Inferno? It's remarkably waterproof, and the fact it's a good fit makes it pretty warm over just a thin fleece. But also has the flexibility to fit a second fleece under it too. To be honest, I probably wear this more walking/running than I do climbing. Or just carry it as a spare layer - at any rate, I rarely seem to start out climbing in it.
Expensive is the MHW Alchemy (but then, it was half price). Manages to achieve an even more bombproof feel than 3 layer goretex, so it depends if that's what you're looking for. Works for me because it's a good fit, but it'd be a bit restrictive if it wasn't. On the positive side, this means it doesn't tangle up in your gear when you're trying to get things back onto gear loops (my niggle with the windproof option). But certainly not lightweight - best for days where you have it on from the start & expect to keep it on (at least after the walk-in). Coped with Scottish blizzard with no problem (apart from the fact it'd be better with a hood). Fine in light rain, though you'd want to add a thin waterproof in a downpour.
Somewhere in between is a TNF top I've got - no idea what it's called, I think it's just a sample anyhow. Apex fabric, I think - very simple pullover design, windproof with a bit of insulation. Doesn't feel as likely to snag on stuff as the windproof (though in practice that's lasted very well), but not as heavy as the MHW thing. Bought a pair of trousers to match in Spain, which I reckon are going to be great for winter (if we get one this year!).
Simon's managed to find a synthetic duvet to add as a layer on top of this kind of stuff, but I ain't found one to fit yet.
I've got a variety of options.... (what, me, too much gear?)
Cheap & cheerful is a Berghaus windproof - Inferno? It's remarkably waterproof, and the fact it's a good fit makes it pretty warm over just a thin fleece. But also has the flexibility to fit a second fleece under it too. To be honest, I probably wear this more walking/running than I do climbing. Or just carry it as a spare layer - at any rate, I rarely seem to start out climbing in it.
Expensive is the MHW Alchemy (but then, it was half price). Manages to achieve an even more bombproof feel than 3 layer goretex, so it depends if that's what you're looking for. Works for me because it's a good fit, but it'd be a bit restrictive if it wasn't. On the positive side, this means it doesn't tangle up in your gear when you're trying to get things back onto gear loops (my niggle with the windproof option). But certainly not lightweight - best for days where you have it on from the start & expect to keep it on (at least after the walk-in). Coped with Scottish blizzard with no problem (apart from the fact it'd be better with a hood). Fine in light rain, though you'd want to add a thin waterproof in a downpour.
Somewhere in between is a TNF top I've got - no idea what it's called, I think it's just a sample anyhow. Apex fabric, I think - very simple pullover design, windproof with a bit of insulation. Doesn't feel as likely to snag on stuff as the windproof (though in practice that's lasted very well), but not as heavy as the MHW thing. Bought a pair of trousers to match in Spain, which I reckon are going to be great for winter (if we get one this year!).
Simon's managed to find a synthetic duvet to add as a layer on top of this kind of stuff, but I ain't found one to fit yet.
In reply to JonC-unregistered: I have a macpac matrix jacket, and I can't recomend them enough. They have a fleece lining so they are fairly warm, they are very breathable and totaly windproof. plus the actual fabric can be washed and dried like any normal coat and it'll rejuvenate its charectaristics. I believe its epic fabric.
In reply to Carolyn:
Is the MHW thing your grey jacket? If so, yes, like that a lot and almost bought one at the weekend. Just a sizing issue. Med was too tight by quite a margin and large meant the sleeves were a tad too long and it felt a bit bulky generally. Think the latter is partly because the material feels quite stiff. Does the material soften up over time and washing (or is it best not to wash too often anyway?)?
Found an ultra-lightweight Berghaus pullover thing which very silk pertex outer/inner and very warm. Just a bit too delicate as an outer layer when climbing IMO. Good extra layer though which would pack down to nothing.
Like the feel of Marmot DriClime but their basic version is loose at the bottom hem. If I could find a better jacket version I'd be interested.
Is the MHW thing your grey jacket? If so, yes, like that a lot and almost bought one at the weekend. Just a sizing issue. Med was too tight by quite a margin and large meant the sleeves were a tad too long and it felt a bit bulky generally. Think the latter is partly because the material feels quite stiff. Does the material soften up over time and washing (or is it best not to wash too often anyway?)?
Found an ultra-lightweight Berghaus pullover thing which very silk pertex outer/inner and very warm. Just a bit too delicate as an outer layer when climbing IMO. Good extra layer though which would pack down to nothing.
Like the feel of Marmot DriClime but their basic version is loose at the bottom hem. If I could find a better jacket version I'd be interested.
In reply to tom_dixon:
Think I saw the Macpac jacket you are talking about but not in my size again. Looked good though.
No one seems to be plugging Arcteryx stuff as yet - is this because no one wants a 2nd mortgage?
Think I saw the Macpac jacket you are talking about but not in my size again. Looked good though.
No one seems to be plugging Arcteryx stuff as yet - is this because no one wants a 2nd mortgage?
In reply to JonC-unregistered:
try the power shield stuff its very good. arcteryx do a cople that are excellent with or with out hood. gamma mx hoody is what i have and its the best. used in scotland in hozizontal snow and rain, ski, climbing. Have a cheap waterproof (mhw epic) to go with it.
however if you get hot try schoeller (sp?) and i cant recomend the driclime option enough. they do a stretch one now which fits better.
avoid the mhw ones. they do not breath and you get sweaty.
try the power shield stuff its very good. arcteryx do a cople that are excellent with or with out hood. gamma mx hoody is what i have and its the best. used in scotland in hozizontal snow and rain, ski, climbing. Have a cheap waterproof (mhw epic) to go with it.
however if you get hot try schoeller (sp?) and i cant recomend the driclime option enough. they do a stretch one now which fits better.
avoid the mhw ones. they do not breath and you get sweaty.
In reply to JonC-unregistered:
I bought and Arc'terix Gamma MX Hoodie and wore it for 2 weeks in the Alps. It was FAB. Really windproof so I only wore an Icebreaker Merino base layer under it all week.
> No one seems to be plugging Arcteryx stuff as yet - is this because no one wants a 2nd mortgage?
I bought and Arc'terix Gamma MX Hoodie and wore it for 2 weeks in the Alps. It was FAB. Really windproof so I only wore an Icebreaker Merino base layer under it all week.
In reply to JonC-unregistered:
MHW thing is the blue/grey thing I was wearing on Saturday, yes. I don't think it's softened up particularly, though I've only washed it a few times on fairly gentle cycles.
MHW thing is the blue/grey thing I was wearing on Saturday, yes. I don't think it's softened up particularly, though I've only washed it a few times on fairly gentle cycles.
In reply to Carolyn:
I thought something ponged a bit
> I've only washed it a few times on fairly gentle cycles.
I thought something ponged a bit
I've got a Cloudveil Serendipity and it's great. My only gripe is I expected it to be a bit more water resistant than it is, but for £70 I'm not complaining. Comfy, good fit, and good as a windproof.
In reply to JonC-unregistered:
Depends what you want it for IMHO. I think you can't expect one thing to do everything perfectly. I use a TNF bilayer jacket - basically the same as a driclime, but a better fit, better pockets and better cuffs than my old driclime. It doesn't have a hood which would make it perfect - I tried on the Rab version (vapour-trail or something) and was impressed - can see why Andy K bigs it up a lot. Anyway the bilayer plus a spraway pertex shell and a Patagonia puffball vest has done me proud ski touring in Arctic norway, whilst over a light thermal and with a paclite for back up is plenty for summer mountain rock. I used my old driclime loads in the alps, often not need much beyond it and tech-T. I've used the bilayer next to the skin with my montane extreme smock over it for iceclimbing on cold days (-15 ish) and for a route on the Ben - very successful. Walking in wearing the bilayer is like wearing a thermal plus pertex shell but much more ventable. Then just slip the climbing layer over the top.
I'd like a scholler top as well, but mainly only because I'm sucked in by the consumerist culture like everyone else. My mate loves his Gamma Hoody and uses it loads for iceclimbing - but he owns a gear shop so gets Arctryx on special deals. Also its not very light either and I don't think nearly as warm as buffalo type top - Dave often wears his shell over it. Bilayer/dri-clime/vapour-trail is the way to go for maximum value for money vs. preformance.
The Schoeller tops look really nice - but from my experience of Scoeller trousers (Patagonia guide pants) - not particularly warm or windproof - they aren't quite the miracle that some say.
Depends what you want it for IMHO. I think you can't expect one thing to do everything perfectly. I use a TNF bilayer jacket - basically the same as a driclime, but a better fit, better pockets and better cuffs than my old driclime. It doesn't have a hood which would make it perfect - I tried on the Rab version (vapour-trail or something) and was impressed - can see why Andy K bigs it up a lot. Anyway the bilayer plus a spraway pertex shell and a Patagonia puffball vest has done me proud ski touring in Arctic norway, whilst over a light thermal and with a paclite for back up is plenty for summer mountain rock. I used my old driclime loads in the alps, often not need much beyond it and tech-T. I've used the bilayer next to the skin with my montane extreme smock over it for iceclimbing on cold days (-15 ish) and for a route on the Ben - very successful. Walking in wearing the bilayer is like wearing a thermal plus pertex shell but much more ventable. Then just slip the climbing layer over the top.
I'd like a scholler top as well, but mainly only because I'm sucked in by the consumerist culture like everyone else. My mate loves his Gamma Hoody and uses it loads for iceclimbing - but he owns a gear shop so gets Arctryx on special deals. Also its not very light either and I don't think nearly as warm as buffalo type top - Dave often wears his shell over it. Bilayer/dri-clime/vapour-trail is the way to go for maximum value for money vs. preformance.
The Schoeller tops look really nice - but from my experience of Scoeller trousers (Patagonia guide pants) - not particularly warm or windproof - they aren't quite the miracle that some say.
In reply to TobyA:
HAve just splashed out on a Rab Vapour rise. Tis very nice, but like so many things it'll almost certainly boil down to fit, which seems to me to be critical with a pertex type soft shell (i.e. close fitting but not restrictive).
I had a look at a few others: Montane something or other, Macpac Matrix etc etc. Of those that I tried but didn't buy, the Macpac was the best - a great outer fabric that should shed more water than the Rab VR; nice long sleeves; the hood it a bit poxy - unlined, too small & bit of an after thought IMHO, really. BUT the outer fabric makes up for it. The only reason I didn't buy it was because it didn't quite fit properly - too tight across the back of my shoulders, which caused the whole body to lift when my arms were above my head.
I still have a driclime and, to be honest, the fit is even better than the Rab. It does have a slightly weird hem that seems to flair out a bit, but that part is tucked inside a harness most of the time so its not a problem. The face fabric is OK, but not as nice / tough as the Rab (or Macpac) - still fine though. On the whole I think its still a great piece and, given the fit, for me at least as good as anything out there. It has a powerstretch hood which is great under a helmet. If I need anything more I usually pull out a light 'waterproof'.
Not tried the Schoeller tops, but I have a pair of Eider Schoeller pants. They are very good in certain conditions (typical spring skiing conditions in the Alps for example), versatile, VERY comfortable. But, as Toby says, they're not quite suited for Scottish winter knarl or even heavy, prolonged downpours in the summer. The fabric also doesn't dry anywhere near as shelled micropile.
Oh. And the Macpac Matrix is on special offer from Up and Under in Cardiff at the moment (£60 or thereabouts), which is nice.
HAve just splashed out on a Rab Vapour rise. Tis very nice, but like so many things it'll almost certainly boil down to fit, which seems to me to be critical with a pertex type soft shell (i.e. close fitting but not restrictive).
I had a look at a few others: Montane something or other, Macpac Matrix etc etc. Of those that I tried but didn't buy, the Macpac was the best - a great outer fabric that should shed more water than the Rab VR; nice long sleeves; the hood it a bit poxy - unlined, too small & bit of an after thought IMHO, really. BUT the outer fabric makes up for it. The only reason I didn't buy it was because it didn't quite fit properly - too tight across the back of my shoulders, which caused the whole body to lift when my arms were above my head.
I still have a driclime and, to be honest, the fit is even better than the Rab. It does have a slightly weird hem that seems to flair out a bit, but that part is tucked inside a harness most of the time so its not a problem. The face fabric is OK, but not as nice / tough as the Rab (or Macpac) - still fine though. On the whole I think its still a great piece and, given the fit, for me at least as good as anything out there. It has a powerstretch hood which is great under a helmet. If I need anything more I usually pull out a light 'waterproof'.
Not tried the Schoeller tops, but I have a pair of Eider Schoeller pants. They are very good in certain conditions (typical spring skiing conditions in the Alps for example), versatile, VERY comfortable. But, as Toby says, they're not quite suited for Scottish winter knarl or even heavy, prolonged downpours in the summer. The fabric also doesn't dry anywhere near as shelled micropile.
Oh. And the Macpac Matrix is on special offer from Up and Under in Cardiff at the moment (£60 or thereabouts), which is nice.
In reply to GBR:
Yep - very similar conclusions myself. They are fine for 'crag' ice climbing on decent days but even with thermal long-johns under, a bit of wind and temps of say -5 and they aren't enough if you are not moving. I still wear my buffalo salopettes in Scotland and on cold days up here in Finland. I have thought about getting a pair of zip-over primaloft troos to go over my scholler ones (as they are better for technical iceclimbing than the buff sallies) but when I was fondling them in the shop my missus' look suggest that it was a bad idea to add yet more clothing to my gear cupboard!
I've also managed to get a few wee holes in them, so the idea that it is mega-tough isn't totally true either. People always say they worry about pertex not being tough but I have done as little damage to my various pertex clothing in years of good use as I have to the Schoeller trousers.
On the upside they are great for summer alpine and mountain rock, spring ski touring and ice climbing in fair weather. They also look a lot less stupid than buffalo sallies when sitting in a pub.
> But, as Toby says, they're not quite suited for Scottish winter knarl or even heavy, prolonged downpours in the summer.
Yep - very similar conclusions myself. They are fine for 'crag' ice climbing on decent days but even with thermal long-johns under, a bit of wind and temps of say -5 and they aren't enough if you are not moving. I still wear my buffalo salopettes in Scotland and on cold days up here in Finland. I have thought about getting a pair of zip-over primaloft troos to go over my scholler ones (as they are better for technical iceclimbing than the buff sallies) but when I was fondling them in the shop my missus' look suggest that it was a bad idea to add yet more clothing to my gear cupboard!
I've also managed to get a few wee holes in them, so the idea that it is mega-tough isn't totally true either. People always say they worry about pertex not being tough but I have done as little damage to my various pertex clothing in years of good use as I have to the Schoeller trousers.
On the upside they are great for summer alpine and mountain rock, spring ski touring and ice climbing in fair weather. They also look a lot less stupid than buffalo sallies when sitting in a pub.
In reply to JonC-unregistered:
at a tangent...and not a very useful one, but:
soft-shell? contradiction in terms surely? if it's soft it's more of a skin isn't it?
J.
at a tangent...and not a very useful one, but:
soft-shell? contradiction in terms surely? if it's soft it's more of a skin isn't it?
J.
In reply to GBR:
Tnanks for helpful comments.
Is the Vapour Rise the Trail (unhooded) or Smock (hooded) version?
Tnanks for helpful comments.
Is the Vapour Rise the Trail (unhooded) or Smock (hooded) version?
In reply to JonC-unregistered:
they are both vapour rise, ones a top, ones a smock, most people like the smock, i have the top, as i didnt want a hood
> Is the Vapour Rise the Trail (unhooded) or Smock (hooded) version?
they are both vapour rise, ones a top, ones a smock, most people like the smock, i have the top, as i didnt want a hood
In reply to JonC-unregistered:
I think all these comments sayin gjust ge ta soft shell are a bit stupid. They arent completely waterproof and I would certainly always want a waterproof shell with me in case it pissed it down, even if I wasn't wearing it. In which case, since a waterproof/fleece/base-layer combination is easily good enough, a soft-shell seems a bit of a waste of money seeing how expensive they are. If youre rich then granted they may be a slight improvement, but as a poor student I certainly won't be shelling out...
I think all these comments sayin gjust ge ta soft shell are a bit stupid. They arent completely waterproof and I would certainly always want a waterproof shell with me in case it pissed it down, even if I wasn't wearing it. In which case, since a waterproof/fleece/base-layer combination is easily good enough, a soft-shell seems a bit of a waste of money seeing how expensive they are. If youre rich then granted they may be a slight improvement, but as a poor student I certainly won't be shelling out...
In reply to gear boy:
I realised that - I was asking the poster (GBR=you?) which he had bought - and, implicitly, why.
> they are both vapour rise
I realised that - I was asking the poster (GBR=you?) which he had bought - and, implicitly, why.
In reply to JonC-unregistered: I'm waiting for the otherworldy dave henderson to descend upon this topic and give his first class advice and that is meant with no sarcasm.
In reply to SidH:
You don't have to be rich...
SOME soft shells are actually a vast improvement, some (as you say) only a slight improvement.
The point is rather how you layer rather than the total money you spend. Waterproof-fleece-base layer is an ineffecient use of your waterproof (you have to use it as a showerproof/windproof as well as a waterproof and so you its relative lack of breathability compromises your comfort level).
If you're interested enough do a search and trawl through the numerous threads on soft shells.
Some waterproofs represent incredibly poor value for money. Others good. The same is true of soft shell.
You don't have to be rich...
SOME soft shells are actually a vast improvement, some (as you say) only a slight improvement.
The point is rather how you layer rather than the total money you spend. Waterproof-fleece-base layer is an ineffecient use of your waterproof (you have to use it as a showerproof/windproof as well as a waterproof and so you its relative lack of breathability compromises your comfort level).
If you're interested enough do a search and trawl through the numerous threads on soft shells.
Some waterproofs represent incredibly poor value for money. Others good. The same is true of soft shell.
In reply to JonC-unregistered:
No, the other bloke isn't me !
Bought the smock version, as
1) it has a hood
2) It is a slimmer (better for me) cut. Much less like wearing a tent, which is how I found the hoodless version.
No, the other bloke isn't me !
Bought the smock version, as
1) it has a hood
2) It is a slimmer (better for me) cut. Much less like wearing a tent, which is how I found the hoodless version.
In reply to JonC-unregistered:
Try www.beyondfleece.com
US company who make custom made tops and bottoms in schoeller. Exchange rate makes them quite attractive.
Try www.beyondfleece.com
US company who make custom made tops and bottoms in schoeller. Exchange rate makes them quite attractive.
In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:
The problem is that for your outer shell you are tempted to buy a lightweight but hi-spec and costly version. Like the Haglofs ultra lite thing, or an Arcteryx SL. Brilliant pieces of kit but quite pricey for something that, if you stick to the lightweight and softshell concept, may well stay in the bottom of your sac for 95%+ of the time. I opted for the Marmot Precip cos it does the job, is very light, is really quite low-tech and only costs c£70.
> Some waterproofs represent incredibly poor value for money. Others good. The same is true of soft shell.
The problem is that for your outer shell you are tempted to buy a lightweight but hi-spec and costly version. Like the Haglofs ultra lite thing, or an Arcteryx SL. Brilliant pieces of kit but quite pricey for something that, if you stick to the lightweight and softshell concept, may well stay in the bottom of your sac for 95%+ of the time. I opted for the Marmot Precip cos it does the job, is very light, is really quite low-tech and only costs c£70.
In reply to GBR:
aaaargh i'm fat!! where's atkins i need him now
> (In reply to JonC-unregistered)
> No, the other bloke isn't me !
>
> Bought the smock version, as
> 1) it has a hood
> 2) It is a slimmer (better for me) cut. Much less like wearing a tent, which is how I found the hoodless version.
> No, the other bloke isn't me !
>
> Bought the smock version, as
> 1) it has a hood
> 2) It is a slimmer (better for me) cut. Much less like wearing a tent, which is how I found the hoodless version.
aaaargh i'm fat!! where's atkins i need him now
In reply to SidH:
I'm going to go with Dave on this one, I reckon the concept makes a lot more sense than layering, and the way I did it was fairly cheap as well.
I have never had a breathable enough waterproof that I can walk uphill in it with a sack on without ending up dripping in my own sweat. If one exists, I will be happy to try it out, but to be honest i doubt one does, and if it did it would cost a bomb. And that's in the dry - breathability decreases in the rain, so I would personally doubt that I could find a waterproof which would keep me dry walking with a pack in a storm.
So I gave up on it. I bought a pertex windproof, which allows me to walk in the dry without any breathability problems at all. And if it rains, as long as I'm still moving, my body will be generating plenty of heat, which is enough to drive out the water which seeps through the pertex back out again - I've tried this a number of times in manky weather, and it works well enough, I've not been cold yet. If it stops, I have a non-breathable sheet of plastic waterproof which cost me nothing which I put on. This I'll also wear if I'm retreating in the rain, abbing etc, since I'm not generating a lot of heat then either. Its the uber-cheap version of a micropile top thing.............. 15 pound for a cheap microfleece, 20-odd for the windproof, waterproof was free (but for something of similar quality, expect to pay at least £0.15 from a market stall (-: )
OK, so its not perfect, if the rain is heavy and I'm not moving I will get wet, although not cold, and if I put the waterproof on over damp clothes, theyll stay wet for longer because it doesn't breathe too well, I may get a cheap (£40 or so) lightweight (it doesn't need to be tough, it will spend 99% of its life in the bottom of my rucksack) breathable waterproof if I see one in a sale. And currently I've put too many holes in the windproof, but this will cost me a lot less to replace than a waterproof, and has stood up to as much abuse as I would have expected a waterproof to.
Think about it some more, see if you think differently,
AJM
I'm going to go with Dave on this one, I reckon the concept makes a lot more sense than layering, and the way I did it was fairly cheap as well.
I have never had a breathable enough waterproof that I can walk uphill in it with a sack on without ending up dripping in my own sweat. If one exists, I will be happy to try it out, but to be honest i doubt one does, and if it did it would cost a bomb. And that's in the dry - breathability decreases in the rain, so I would personally doubt that I could find a waterproof which would keep me dry walking with a pack in a storm.
So I gave up on it. I bought a pertex windproof, which allows me to walk in the dry without any breathability problems at all. And if it rains, as long as I'm still moving, my body will be generating plenty of heat, which is enough to drive out the water which seeps through the pertex back out again - I've tried this a number of times in manky weather, and it works well enough, I've not been cold yet. If it stops, I have a non-breathable sheet of plastic waterproof which cost me nothing which I put on. This I'll also wear if I'm retreating in the rain, abbing etc, since I'm not generating a lot of heat then either. Its the uber-cheap version of a micropile top thing.............. 15 pound for a cheap microfleece, 20-odd for the windproof, waterproof was free (but for something of similar quality, expect to pay at least £0.15 from a market stall (-: )
OK, so its not perfect, if the rain is heavy and I'm not moving I will get wet, although not cold, and if I put the waterproof on over damp clothes, theyll stay wet for longer because it doesn't breathe too well, I may get a cheap (£40 or so) lightweight (it doesn't need to be tough, it will spend 99% of its life in the bottom of my rucksack) breathable waterproof if I see one in a sale. And currently I've put too many holes in the windproof, but this will cost me a lot less to replace than a waterproof, and has stood up to as much abuse as I would have expected a waterproof to.
Think about it some more, see if you think differently,
AJM
In reply to Anonymous:
I would say that was the third paragraph. Mayhap you were
considering AJM's opening sentence as a seperate abstract?
A different AJM
I would say that was the third paragraph. Mayhap you were
considering AJM's opening sentence as a seperate abstract?
A different AJM
In reply to Andy Myles:
OK, yes, you are right, it was the third paragraph. I'd say that in fact I intended the opening sentence to be a separate abstract and not a paragraph, but that would be a lie, i'm afraid I just can't count.
AJM (we seem to be multiplying)
OK, yes, you are right, it was the third paragraph. I'd say that in fact I intended the opening sentence to be a separate abstract and not a paragraph, but that would be a lie, i'm afraid I just can't count.
AJM (we seem to be multiplying)
In reply to JonC-unregistered:
Probably chucking a spanner in the works here, as I'm not up on current soft-shells, but wouldn't something like a Paramo Velez smock do everything? It's windproof, it wicks sweat, has a degree of insulation and does away with the need for a waterproof shell? It'd probably work out cheaper as well. Or is there some advantage to the softshell/waterproof mix that I'm missing?
Probably chucking a spanner in the works here, as I'm not up on current soft-shells, but wouldn't something like a Paramo Velez smock do everything? It's windproof, it wicks sweat, has a degree of insulation and does away with the need for a waterproof shell? It'd probably work out cheaper as well. Or is there some advantage to the softshell/waterproof mix that I'm missing?
In reply to Ridge @ work:
I think it pretty much does do everything, yes. Only disadvantage is the insulation might make it too warm in summer? (not used one, and so can't say, but I've heard you can get very warm in them)
AJM
I think it pretty much does do everything, yes. Only disadvantage is the insulation might make it too warm in summer? (not used one, and so can't say, but I've heard you can get very warm in them)
AJM
In reply to AJM:
(Ridge not @ work)
I've got a Paramo jacket, and yes, it's warm, but no warmer than a fleece and I assume many of the softshells would be. Being a walking jacket I wouldn't use it for climbing, but I'm just summarising that the cheapest Paramo smock would do the job of a soft-shell, but with better waterproofing.
(Ridge not @ work)
I've got a Paramo jacket, and yes, it's warm, but no warmer than a fleece and I assume many of the softshells would be. Being a walking jacket I wouldn't use it for climbing, but I'm just summarising that the cheapest Paramo smock would do the job of a soft-shell, but with better waterproofing.
In reply to Ridge: You might recall the recent-ish article in Summit, sponsored by ME, where the writer was discussing the various merits of shells for Scottish Winter conditions...the comment was that Paramo was the choice of many professionals working in the Scottish Winter environment. I've used Paramo since '93, it is warm for Summer use and, depending on the garment, heavy. However, I've used it in tropical wet - Darwin (and all round Oz, including the temperate Tasmania) - the Alps and in Scotland. It's what I take with me when I know conditions will be bad. In winter, I've found that for 'hot and sticky' walk-ins a very lightweight windproof over a thermal suffices, then throw the Paramo on for full weatherproofing when climbing. Stopping for a break means pulling a synthetic duvet over the top. Easy.
In reply to Removed User: Forgot to add this bit:- In Spring, Summer and Autumn (British) and Summer Alpine, Schoeller trousers and Dri-clime top for light rain and snow - with lightweight paclite/pre-cip shells for heavy rain - does everything....again a lightweight synthetic duvet as back-up insulation if going high. I'm not keen on getting absolutely drenched to the skin and then relying on moving to keep warm; this is fine if you're only looking after yourself and are descending after a day route, but you are relying on not getting into any trouble yourself or with your partner/group.
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