In reply to DR:
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> Contrary to what Stephen Reid says, I don't think people were largely in favour of the FRCC taking a stance. Many people shouting to be heard over the din said it depends what that stance is. Better info on plant communities definitely but a holier than thou attitude about scratching rock I'm not so sure.
No one was suggesting the adoption of a holier than thou attitude at all. I simply was trying to gauge the majority view and the majority (of those who voted) seemed to support the notion that the FRCC should have some involvement. Those who shouted that "it depended what the view was" (and I heard only one) wanted to have their cake and eat it I suspect - ie they wanted the FRCC to have a view but only if it agreed with their own. Actually, if you look at the intro to the current winter guide, then we already do hold a view on conditions and rare vegetation.
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> I also think it takes a hell of a brass neck for someone who admitted to abbing down a summer line with an ice axe clearing out vegetation to support some sort of limitation on mixed winter climbing in the Lakes.
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I didn't support any limitations - I simply asked people to raise their hands if they did and then raise them if they didn't. The result was inconclusive, numbers were about 50/50 of those that bothered to vote. On that basis, there is no way that the FRCC would be supporting any "bans", even if such things were possible, which I doubt.
Instead of brass neck, try honesty. Yes, I've cleaned up new routes using an old ice axe in the past. I've also used a nut key. The blade is about the same length in each case but you don't tend to bash your knuckles with an ice axe. The room was full of keen new routers and without doubt virtually all of them, if not 100%, will have used similar methods to create their masterpieces. What are now classic clean Lakeland routes once had vegetation all over them and this has been removed either by the first ascentionist or by those making repeat ascents. To pretend otherwise is at best naive and at worst self-deluding. Were the end results worth it? Who can say? If you take routes like the Crack on Gimmer or Grooved Wall on Pillar, both of which had loads of vegetation removed from them, I would say yes in terms of their popularity as climbs. If you look at routes like those on Grange Crags in Borrowdale which no-one climbs on now, then the answer would have to be no. When I started doing new routes in Galloway twenty years ago, I didn't know as much about crag vegetation as I do now and my enthusiasm may have got the better of me at times. But, as I said to Steve Ashworth, sometimes one does things when you are young that you regret having done when you are older.
I suspect that even if chaired differently the debate would not have reached a firm conclusion. Nevertheless, I am glad it went ahead. As editor of the FRCC guides, I find issues like this difficult to resolve and yet everyone expects you to do something (as long as it's what they want). I now know that the stance we are taking on the especially rare plants of the Helvellyn Escarpment is correct, that routes done over two days rather than one are perfectly valid in most folks' eyes (the guidebook writer by the way is strongly opposed to this), that drytooling is a no-no on established routes, and that there is a fair amount of concern about damage to rock climbs but not enough for people to feel various areas should be banned so perhaps a general appeal for people to be sensible about where and what they climb is what is called for. These views will hopefully gel over time to produce a few guidelines, which, at the end of the day, pleople can choose to heed or ignore as they wish.