UKC

Sunak has cancelled a meeting with the Greek PM over this issue. It seems obvious to me that they should be returned under permanent loan. 

Yes, something like this which means the UK isn't publicly admitting to any wrong doing, but Greece gets them back, would seem like a sensible solution. With many specimens, think 'where can they be best displayed in context?' should be as much of a consideration as the question of ownership.

Although reading today about some disputed pieces from Crimea being returned to Ukraine, I do wonder if the actual return should be delayed (for their own safety) until the country is in a position to display them.

On an aside, during the Egyptian uprising of 2011, whilst we saw rioting on TV in Tahrir Square. Locals were blockading the adjacent Egyptian museum, to (successfully) protect it from looting.

Absolutely pathetic. At least, he should have met the Greek PM so that they could discuss his outdated position.

It seems obvious to me that they should be returned

Looks good to the gammons if he's seen to be sticking it to Johnny Foreigner.

I recently visited the stunning modern Acropolis Museum which is ready to house them and it seemed obvious to me then too. However, there is an argument that this would set a precedent with arguably undesirable consequences in the dismantling of many museums' collections. It's a tricky one. On balance I think they should probably be returned under conditions which make clear that it is being treated as a special case.

I don’t know whether they should be returned but I’m absolutely certain it’s not a serious enough issue for us our PM to be cancelling a meeting with the PM of one of our allies at this late stage.

That sort of snub is for real serious issues breaking at the eleventh hour not some minor disagreement that has been rumbling for decades. I hate this govt for all the big things they’ve done since coming to power but it’s this sort of low level pettiness that makes them next level detestable!

I think the unstated but implied issue in that statement is that you believe the UK has committed some unspecified wrong.  Please say what that might be.  

That's a key issue; as, also, would be insurance if they were not to be gifted or sold.  That rapidly gets into some deep and murky water around the level of premiums, the financial security of the Greek state and much else that would complicate matters for some years.

There's no easy way round this and it might just be better in the long term to note that this is an area on which disagreement will remain.

T.

Well, it’s called theft. A very specific wrong. On a massive scale, However, the general verdict is that Lord Elgin did everyone a favour by nicking them, because it meant the were kept for over a century in museum conditions, away from atmospheric weathering. But now that the Greeks have created a special, state-of-the-art museum for them, they should of course be returned. With modern techniques we could easily make extremely accurate replicas to keep in the British Museum. 

My understanding is that the person who gifted them to the UK had stolen them, therefore they weren't his to give. Accepting the gift might not have been wrong, but refusing to return stolen goods is.

My suggestion of delaying returning artifacts was in reference to sending items into a war zone where they run the risk of being destroyed, nothing to do with the Elgin Marbles.

Re copies - it seems relatively trivial to do this as you say - you could even fill in the missing bits….

The problem is that these meetings usually are Planned in advance with all the talking points agreed via diplomatic channels.  They are not a free for all discussion. So the Elgin marbles would have been on that list almost inevitably . In turn we do not know if the Greek pm broke some diplomatic rule. 
 

put it this way there has been a lot of wrangling going on as George Osborne who heads the British Museum Tustess is in favour of them being loaned to the Greeks  permanently but ownership retained by the BM . There have been substantive and positive negotiations on this point .

Either way it also looks good to the Greeks when this sort of political spat occurs over the marbles ( which is the other side of the story)

It’s a tricky subject. Do not forget that Elgin saved them from destruction. A point often overlooked. 
 

they were apparently purchased at the time. Also it was Elgin who recognised their value .A complicated position much disputed. 

In the Tory Party* big list of priorities for action, doing what's right or what's good for the country is way, way down the list below things like clinging on to power and maintaining party unity. And the only reason to do the latter is that it helps with the former.

* I'm not convinced the others are any better, it's just that we've been given an awful lot of Tory Party examples in the last few years. See Brexit.

It’s a beautiful  museum and well worth a visit . In a way it adds to the quality by them being elsewhere. It helps highlight the history of what happened in Greece in that period . There are also there artifacts held in other countries highlighted at the museum. 

I understand a major factor in the cancellation was that the Greek PM discussed the Elgin Marbles (amongst other things) with Sir Keir the day before

In reply to neilh:

From the Ottomans. If the purchase had been from the Greeks, it would be more clear cut.

Come on Neil, how often have we heard a British PM promising to raise an issue of recent and populist domestic UK concern ahead of a planned meeting with one of his foreign counterparts? 

The whole subject is shrouded in politics on both sides. It’s a tricky subject for both and the Greek pm probably put his foot in his mouth by touching on a raw nerve. So he should have kept his mouth shut in my view. You can imagine both the BM and the Parthenon museum trustees throwing their arms up in the air and saying this. It’s a fraught subject with years of wrangling that had come to an acceptable position on a permanent loan. Diplomacy recognising both sides position is part of it. 

Yes, although I can’t help thinking that Sunak suddenly saw the danger of the obvious Daily Mail headline, ‘Rishi loses his marbles’.

Mostly armless though.

I don’t agree, some may lose their heads over it

Cracking headline …anyway see them at the BM for free whilst you still have the chance.its almost inevitable that at some stage they will go back on loan. O

Is it a problem if artefacts are displayed ina different museum closer to their origins?

Sadly it's not that simple. Plenty of damage was caused to the friezes and the Parthenon in removing and shipping the sculptures. London's smoggy atmosphere and successive attempts by the museum to clean* the marbles have caused irreparable damage.

For what it's worth, I think the row benefits both Sunak and Mitsotakis. Both of them have far more important things to worry about, but now everyone's talking about the marbles instead!

*When was the last time you cleaned something with a chisel?

They should give them to the Spanish to look after 

Depends on the circumstances - if they'd just been overlooked and left behind by the original owners then they should be returned. If they'd got stuck in place and had been abandoned then they're legitimate crag swag.

Brilliant! Was the restorer going through an Impressionist phase?

Yes Gordon's point is a little silly to me. The Elgin marbles had been in situ for over a thousand years before we took them, and their removal has surely caused more damage it has prevented.

They should be given back, and we should apologise for their removal.

Yep, saw that. Spun on the news this morning as Labour's fault. FFS.

E

Neo-impressionism, if you please.

Or it could be that because Rishi is already losing his marbles, he doesn't want to lose any more.

Which news was that?

Everything that I have seen and heard relates to something that was said in a TV interview on Sunday with no mention of a meeting with Keir Starmer.

There you go

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67551159

Not entirely sold on an apology for something no living person had a part in. The apology should be for continuing to hold on to them long after we'd run out of excuses.

I've initiated a petition to return the marbles

 It needs five signatures to go live. Link here:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/652310/sponsors/new?token=rnfnnsGE... 

Ah, that makes sense.  My understanding is that Lord Elgin, seeing that the Turks who occupied Greece at the time were taking things like this down and breaking them up for use in road building, purchased them and had them shipped back to the UK.

Obviously, the receipt has been lost, the Turks kicked out of Greece, many years have passed and it serves the Greek administration well to have a populist issue like this to distract their public.

So, rescued and purchased rather than stolen and smuggled, saved from destruction and eventually sympathetically housed in public view too.

I may be swimming against the stream of popular opinion, but I'm very much not in favour of just handing them back like a kid that's been caught pinching toffees.

T.

There is no contemporary evidence that a sale was agreed and money changed hands. The Greeks had no say in the matter. They were under Ottoman rule. They're removal also resulted in damage to the Parthenon.

It is to the museum which loses one of its biggest treasures and attractions. They are the main reason I have visited the British Museum anyway.

Cold marble carvings don't do a lot for me, I prefer paintings. But each to their own. Hanging on to them because they attract tourists is not an adequate justification IMHO.

As an aside, unrelated to the ethics of returning the marbles (which surely could be done on some 999 year "loan" to Greece if a compromise is needed) but wasn't most of the damage to the Parthenon and friezes etc caused by it being used as an ammo magazine (powder store) by the Turks and getting a direct hit from the Venetians, resulting in it all being blown everywhere and what we see today is the bits reassembled as best people could https://www.historytoday.com/archive/months-past/parthenon-blown

There is so much tremendous stuff in the BM it's difficult to pick just one thing, but I make a point of viewing the Marbles when I go.  Most of the time they've just been interesting; nothing special when judged against their reputation.

But once, one of those unexpectedly alpine days in February that you rarely see in central London, I went in to see them and the angle, the colour, the intensity of the light was just so and they became absolutely breathtakingly, jaw-droppingly beautiful.  I had to tear myself away from them to go and catch a train.

The next time they were back to the way they'd been before, but I've not forgotten the way they appeared to me, once upon a time.

T.

You surprise me. For a mathematician, it's the Rosetta Stone. I doubt there's an item of greater historical significance in British possession.

Why don’t they get a facsimile set made, and agree that each country claims to have the original?

It should be given back to the French! And when are the Italians going to pay the ground rent on Hadrian's Wall?

I think they would be even more beautiful in the extraordinary Acropolis Museum, which mirrors the actual Acropolis and Parthenon opposite in the window, set out as they were on the Parthenon and lit by the real Greek light.

Yes, that was the other thing I particularly wanted to see. Historically maybe more important but culturally nothing matches the marbles.

Well, I'm sure we can agree to disagree like civilised chaps.

The other place in the BM where I routinely spend a lot of time is the mediaeval gallery, for the Sutton Hoo helmet, the Lewis chessmen and Lindow man.

Top spot, the BM.

T.

That's enough about the royal family, can we get this thread back on track please. 

I see your point and to a certain extent I agree, but governments, organisations and corporations apologising for the actions of those who held the roles previously is normal.

Looks at the apologies that families of Hillsborough or Stephen Lawrence received. They were needed, an explanation that all those officers have left, or are dead now so no apology can be given would have been beyond the pale.

You’re right that the continued retention should also be apologised for, but I think the original act ought to be too.

We should hold on to them for now.

Certainly no apology.

Now about the Lewis chessmen......

An apology wouldn’t ultimately be coming from an individual though, not as I see it. It’s coming from a state; a legal entity in its own right. The apology is just delivered through a person on behalf of the state. 

I do think that’s an important distinction. We create legal entities like states and companies and give them many of the same rights and privileges as a human; they can own property, open bank accounts, file legal proceedings, etc etc. The other side of that coin is that we expect them to be accountable for their actions, regardless of whether the person representing them is personally responsible. 

I can’t be the only one who has apologised at work for something my employer has done that was nothing to do with me. The apology wasn’t from me, it was on behalf of the organisation. Similarly, if a company or state wrongs me then I expect an apology. I don’t care if the specific individual involved has retired, or that the person handling the call/case wasn’t involved; I want the organisation to acknowledge the issue.

I see these situations in the same way; the people involved might be dead, but the state they were acting on behalf of lives on as a legal entity with rights and responsibilities and it is the state that is being asked for an apology. 

Care to elaborate on your position? 

Propaganda from colonial pillagers. Even at the time this looting was seen as wrong and as destructive theft. That it is recast as a "rescue" because "the locals were too uncultured to appreciate these artworks" is just doubling down on white supremacist colonial mindset, which underpins the British Museum as an institution.

There are different views on that, depending on which side you listen to.You also need to remember that Elgin was a proponent of Greek independence from Turkey and avidly supported the Greeks position on this when they fought their war of independence. So portraying him as the baddie...is plain daft.

As I said before George Osborne (who chairs the Trustees of the BM) has proposed a permanent loan back- discussions have been ongoing for a number of years along these line- and in return the BM will get a similar artifact to display ( I have forgotten what it was, but its a significant piece).

Rubbish.Maybe do a little research.Like visiting and seeing which parts were destroyed by Turkish gun fire onto the Acropolis etc. during the independence battles.

There really is nothing to apologise for.

The Sutton Hoo is superb. Always a highlight for me when I visit. And as for the Rosetta stone, very humbling. There is a dispute on that, but its a bit unclear who it reaally belongs to- is it French, Egyptian etc etc. nobody reaaly knows so i suspect it will stay with the BM.

Its always free to visit, something we should be proud of here, as I have never neen to any other big Museum which is free ( theu usually charge).

I do think if you have been to the Acropolis Musem you will understand that it should be loaned back.

Not rubbish at all. I'm not saying it wasn't damaged by others during the course of history. But, the marbles and the Parthenon were also damaged by this removal. The fact that the marbles also constitute an important record of the history of the city (e.g. wars) is not a justification for removing them! Imagine if someone had removed significant parts of one of our castles or cathedrals because they'd been damaged in the Civil War?!

They are far more significant than any Civil War in the UK.

Definitely this^^

He's like a petulant child.

Are you suggesting, there are going to be more wars in Greece?

Sky News. "We also believe Starmer met the Greek president yesterday which didn't help matters" etc etc etc 

E

Yep. You'd also think that a PM whose primary goal is to reduce illegal immigration from mainland Europe would try to remain on good terms with a country that is one of the most important players.
The guy is so full of shit.

E

Where on earth did I suggest that ?

Byron not only supported the Greeks' fight for independence, he sold his English estate to help fund the struggle and joined them in the fight. He took an extremely dim contemporary view, regarding Elgin as a "plunderer" and a "spoiler" who had "defaced" the Parthenon and "snatched" the sculptures. He takes joy in the fact that Elgin was a son of Caledonia rather than England and describes him thus: "Cold as the crags upon his native coast, His mind as barren and his heart as hard."

Superb quote.

Funny that the only people in the world who think that happen to be British isn't it?

I think this is nothing to do with the Elgin Marbles and is all about putting a marker in the sand.

The Greek Prime Minister, and just about everybody else in the world cab see that Sunak and the Tories days are numbered and that more likely than not it's Starmer and his team that they'll be speaking to in the future.  So to that end they held a meeting with them.  The "optics" as they call it of this are bad for Sunak and the Torys.  Makes then look weak, impotent and further concretes the view that they're on their way out.

How to deal with that, and stop other leaders doing the same?  Invent a cock and bull story about an agreement that no public proclamations would be made about the marbles, use that as justification for Sunak pulling out and send the message out that they will not stand for other world leaders diminishing them in this way.

It's petty and obvious, and discussions regarding the marbles themselves are a distraction from the real issue.  The torys are tanking in the polls and on their way out, and are going to find themselves increasingly sidelined as the election looms.

Personally, I can't wait to watch it all play out.

Take that up with other countries who also have Greek artifacts the Greeks want back-- quite a few.Its not particularly unique.

They are all highlighted in the Acroplois museum.

The size, scale and importance of the Elgin Marbles is though isn't it?

Each one is significant

But the Elgin Marbles were the only collection for which the Acropolis museum specified designs had to have a gallery for weren't they?

Like I said they are unique in their size, scale and importance.   

One of the major reasons the Greek government built the Acropolis museum was to house them, and counter the argument the British had made for decades that they didn't have a suitable facility to house them.

They haven't gone to those lengths that for other collections held by other nations.  That makes them unique.

Is that spinning it as Labour's fault or highlighting the fact that our PM acted like a spoiled child?

 

Quite possibly both.

"They're all as bad as each other" is what many in the right-wing media would want us to (falsely) believe, now that they've run out of ways to even pretend the Tories have anything positive to conribute.

Yes it’s like when we had Johnson in power and he frequently got caught lying. Standard Tory response was “oh well they all do”.

Once had a very long discussion with a guy who said that after I criticised Boris’ lies and he couldn’t think of a single one told by Corbyn or even Blair for that matter.

And no, WMD lie doesn’t count. He believed the intel, there was no attempt to mislead on his part. 

Starmer was pretty good at PMQs today on the subject.

I actually did a LOL today watching it. 

It is textbook from a failing government. A good nationalistic existential crisis is always the first option, see Galtieri and the falklands.

Not that Sunak is quite as bad as Galtieri or that this is quite as severe, but the principal stands.

Or, using the excuse that the request for the return of the stolen goods is based on false pretences is a good enough guise to refuse their return?

It's simple- the UK stole them. And any time is never the wrong time to return them.

From all I recall on my visits there were spaces let for those other missing exhibits and an equal claim to them by the Acropolis museum.  Have you been to either ?

As I said earlier the permanent loan negotiated seems a good compromise in the fraught and highly politics world  of museum pieces. I can really see no  reason for an apology.

And part of the history of those pieces is what happened to them over the last couple of hundred years. Adds to them.  
 

I think a Scottish person acquired them, and then sold them to the British museum. Not direct theft by the U.K.

The Acropolis Museum has replicas of the panels in the British Museum as well as of a few which are elsewhere in Europe. Clearly designed to be simply slotted out and replaced with the originals. 

The British Museum also has the frieze from the Temple of Apollo at Bassae. This seems to have been bought by the museum from the archaeologists who rediscovered the temple. I wonder whether this is also contentious.

In reply to Dr.S at work:

Aren't they in the British Museum in London? And the guy who took them a British Nobleman?

Yes, and yes 

Just return the stolen goods.

Agreed

"Re-discovered"  can you say the same about folks that remove the copper pipes and wiring from unoccupied houses ?

I think "reduscovered" to describe some archaeology is entirely appropriate. Tutankhamen's tomb would be an obvious example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassae

There are going to be alot of political fun and games with these artifacts over the next  few decades.The growth in tourism to these big museums especially in the oil reach  Middle East , China wanting back culutural artifacts, and the return of colonial pillaged items.Challenging to say the least.

I think it was Neil Mcgregor who refocused the BM as being A World Museum and very much open to all and part of the London experience.At the same time Londons Museum district also has history behind it and the way these things developed is historically and culturally fascinating. including the shifting out of London of exhibits to Welsh slate mine etc during WW2.

You see all this type of issue being played out in Ukraine- the deliberate targeting/destroying  of cultural and historical monuments by Russia. A spat over the Marbles is mild compared to this.

I’m trying to understand what on earth you mean by ‘rediscovered’. How can anyone have ‘rediscovered’ such an enormously grand building on top of the Acropolis? Have you ever been to Athens and seen it? The Parthenon's not exactly difficult to spot. Lord Elgin simply went up there with some navvies and removed all the sculptures on the facade.

The destruction of large parts of Palmyra by ISIS is another example.  Once it's gone, there's no getting it back.

Indeed.

T.

Any issue can be seen as mild when compared with the right example, that doesn't mean they have no right to be upset about it.

In a modern context you are right, a few hundred years ago its debateable whether it was noticed or understood as significant to everybody.

An old article in the Guardian gives a slightly different viewpoint on things, including the contribution made by Byron:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2004/jul/21/highereducation.parthenon
Being old, the article is now inaccurate in some areas - In particular, the lack of a suitable museam in Athens to house them.

I've no objection (indeed support) the marbles being back in Athens - but Elgin acted in a private capacity, it was not a state action.

The fact there was a parliamentary investigation around the sale to the BM makes it clear the British state at the time was alive to the issue, but concluded at the time that the actions of Elgin were reasonable.

Given the recent history at that point, there was an argument for removal to preserve - thats certainly not the case in the modern context.

Being hung up on the how's and the why's of the BNM's acquisition of these items is unjustly deflecting from the return of the stolen goods. 

Returning these items would undoubtedly be very good for Britain on the global stage.

But as this would require a bit of leeway from the posh'os in our society, I don't reckon it will happen because imho they are the stingiest b****rds going. Sue me.

True dat - so maybe be accurate in what you post, as its less likely to lead to deflection?

Sure, no worries 👍

You seem to be confused, Robert Durran was NOT referring to the Parthenon, to quote :-

"The British Museum also has the frieze from the Temple of Apollo at Bassae. This seems to have been bought by the museum from the archaeologists who rediscovered the temple. I wonder whether this is also contentious."

(My enhancing in bold).

I can't comment on the scholarship in the rest of the article, but the supposed quotation from Byron's Childe Harold's Pilgrimage is a dreadful butchering of the original. It reads like something lifted from a Cole's Notes paraphrase for GCSE students. For anyone who wants to read what he actually wrote, I assume it's purporting to be Stanza XV from Canto II. The superficiality of her other comments on Byron make me rather doubt she's actually read the original - or indeed anything by him.

A Guardian article with fake information?
Whatever next...

Yeah, they should go back. Yeah, the current government’s reaction to Greek demands has been predictably crappy, but a little graciousness on the Greek side wouldn’t go amiss. 
 

I visited the Acropolis museum (a wonderful space) in August and took a tour that included much talk of British theft. Notable amongst the blank spaces were several black and white photographs of pieces that had gone missing under Greece’s watch. Gone forever with no idea what happened to them. Not something that has befallen any of the British Museum pieces, despite 200 years, two world wars and a blitz.

Also no mention on this thread of the sensation their original exhibition caused across Europe, the reigniting of interest in all things Greek, enhanced regard of Greece as the mother of western civilization.
No doubt this increased public awareness had an impact on the subsequent intervention of Britain on Greece’s side in its war of independence a few years later.… sometimes even morally dubious acts can have a positive influence.

I was referring to the temple at Bassae, not the Acropolis.

Yes, most recently just last month.

Having also visited the amazing site of Bassae, I am now inclined to revisit the frieze in the British Museum. It would be quite something if that were returned to Bassae itself (I noticed while in Greece that they are now trying to exhibit things where they were excavated - Delphi and Olympia as well as the Acropolis Museum).

Are those other spaces as large as that for the Elgin marbles? Are those pieces as important as the Elgin marbles?

No, and no again.  

For the third time, it’s the size, volume and importance of the Elgin marbles that makes them unique.

Your point about our theft of them adding to them is a view that I’d imagine would be shared by very few people outside of the U.K., let alone by those who live where they belong.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-67144607.amp

If this was a story at the Acropolis museum we’d be using it as a point as to why the marbles should not be returned.

Plus repeated cleaning attempts have caused irreparable damage, plus there have been minor thefts, vandalism and accidents. 

Doubt it. The thefts in question were small pieces, easily smuggled out and easily overlooked. Not massive, world renowned sculptures forming one of the centre pieces of the museum.

I think you need some historical perspective on that damage. Maybe read up a little on the huge and entirely deliberate damage done to them pre-Elgin? Maybe read up a little on what happened to the sculptures Elgin didn't make off with?

https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2002/12/01/a-short-history-of-the-parthenon...

As I said previously, what has been preserved should be returned.

Yes agreed the stolen pieces weren’t anything like the size and significance f the Elgin marbles, but I still think if this happened at the Acropolis museum it would be brought up in discussions of this nature.

And of course, those that weren’t removed have also been damaged etc, but I wanted to make the point that we’ve not been entirely perfect curators of them, which is particularly key as we shouldn’t even have them in the first place.

Minor points really though I guess, we both agree that they ought to be returned, that’s the important point which I’m glad we agree on. 

It’s a bit more than that in the historical and cultural significance of that whole area. . Never denied that. And as I said have repeatedly said before a permanent loan is the negotiated way forward. An apology though, no.

Everything I've heard has made it sound like Sunak 'has mishandled yet another thing' and that seems to be what a lot of his own MPs think.

Interesting article by the way.  

This paragraph in particular caught my eye:

"Unesco guidelines on the restitution of cultural properties call for the return of those objects which are “central to the cultural identity and national heritage of a people”, and whose removal “divests that culture of one of its dimensions”. Do these guidelines apply to the Parthenon sculptures in London? I believe not. The modern Greeks are not the sole heirs to the achievements of the ancient Greeks, and, moreover, those achievements are not the sole or even the most important component of their present-day identity. Nor can it reasonably be argued that modern Greece has been divested of an entire dimension of its national heritage by Elgin’s actions."

I wonder if the author of the article would share this view had a wealthy Greek removed Stonehenge a couple of centuries back?

This part of the article is hilarious. Rarely ever is the ancient culture of a society the most important component of modern society, especially in a hyper-modernised world where culture is shared across borders with ease.

As you bring up Stonehenge, our British modern culture is not owed primarily to the culture of the inhabitants of the British isles from 3000BC. 

On one hand Stonehenge’s geographical location and orientation with the Sun is sort of the whole point.

On the other hand the author is a Greek American so he probably couldn’t give a toss.

From the way he comes across in that article I’d suggest he’s no stranger to a toss.

King Charles seen wearing a tie with a Greek flag on it at COP conference. Respect from a republican.

His dad was Greek so he'll probably get into the Athens museum free if the marbles go there

My own position is that, yes, it is time to return the Parthenon Marbles to Greece but, and not replying or taking exception to Tony's post, but to place that 'at that time' in context.

The Turks conquered and occupied Athens in 1456. When Elgin started removing some of the Parthenon Marbles in 1801, that's 345 years - as much separation as we have from Charles II and The Restoration.

Whilst there were contemporary voices that called for keeping them in place (most famously Byron), it's not like it was an obviously temporary occupation or the Ottomans were very good custodians of these treasures. It is quite possible for removing them in 1801, keeping them in London until recently and giving them back now to all be for the best.

And the previous occupiers had been there since 86 bce.

The Rosetta stone is interesting since its historical importance is mostly due to its use in French and mostly British hands once we nicked it off them. It was a mass produced decree and there have been several other copies found since.

I find the Shabaka Stone particularly humbling. A pretty triumphal piece of text which has been worn away when it was reused for other purposes quite possibly as a millstone.

Ozymandias in miniature.

An amusing tale in the Marbles.

“The essex antiquities” doesn’t have quite the same ring. The sculptures that were hacked from the Parthenon in the early 19th century go by many names. They are called the “Parthenon Sculptures”, the “Parthenon Marbles” and, by traditionalists, “the Elgin Marbles” but never known by the name of the county in the south-east of England. Yet in 1902 part of the frieze from the Acropolis turned up in a rockery in a charming garden in Essex. Quite how it got there, as Mary Beard, a classicist, puts it, “we have no idea.”

It is commonly said that the Rosetta Stone has three scripts on it but as Neil MacGregor, a former director of the museum, has pointed out, it has four. On the side it reads “Captured by the British Army in 1801”.

I can see both sides of this argument but tend to come down on the side of them going back to Athens as they will be viewed in context and there is a apparently a great facility to house them, and the BM has an awful lot of other great pieces.

But the caveat I would give though is that the museum where they are housed should be free of charge to enter, access to culture and art should not be limited by money. Some museums I know give free access to locals but pieces like this belong to humanity, so should be free to all, or at the very least if one pays to enter once, that should entitle to free entry thereafter.

A joy of visiting a UK Art Gallery or Museum is that one can enter and view one or two select pieces (and not feel one has to get ones moneys worth), unlike many European Galleries where one has to pay €15 or more and fill ones boots so to speak. I was pleasantly surprised by in Madrid and Valencia were the Prado and Reinia Sofia have two hours free most evenings and the Bellas Artes in Valencia is free of charge and a gallery well worth seeking out.
 

Reading the economist by any chance?

great article on it......

I have changed my mind.  They should be returned to Athens.  Make some copies first etc.

Steady - I'm not sure that's allowed round here...

If you cannot change your mind, it is not fit for purpose.

An historian presents some facts...

youtube.com/watch?v=4petLw58Ofg&

Athenian rather than Greek.  Arguably, the defeat of the Persians, by the Athenians et al at the battle of Salamis in 480 B.C., was the most significant event in European, hence British, history.