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Double fishermans or the overhand knot?
Psychologically I prefer the double fishermans but I have been told the overhand is better ...
Any thoughts oh experienced and opinionated UKC members ?
Psychologically I prefer the double fishermans but I have been told the overhand is better ...
Any thoughts oh experienced and opinionated UKC members ?
In reply to climbingcritter:
what are you tying them together for? If for abseiling, I'd go for an overhand with long tails.
what are you tying them together for? If for abseiling, I'd go for an overhand with long tails.
In reply to climbingcritter: An overhand knot leaves one 'flat' edge to the knot so that it will pull easier with less likelyhood of getting jammed.
Make sure you leave long tails (60cm+) on the knot to allow for 'slippage'!
Make sure you leave long tails (60cm+) on the knot to allow for 'slippage'!
In reply to climbingcritter: Lyon Equipment did a good study on this a couple of years ago.
Double fishermans is good and strong, but more likely to snag.
Overhand is good, but can slip. Less chance of snagging.
Figure of eight is the "European Death Knot". AVOID!!!
Best of all is an Overhand knot, with a second overhand knot tied as close as possible to the first. (the second knot prevents the first from rolling over)
You can pprobably find the report somewhere on google.
Double fishermans is good and strong, but more likely to snag.
Overhand is good, but can slip. Less chance of snagging.
Figure of eight is the "European Death Knot". AVOID!!!
Best of all is an Overhand knot, with a second overhand knot tied as close as possible to the first. (the second knot prevents the first from rolling over)
You can pprobably find the report somewhere on google.
In reply to climbingcritter:
it might make it mentally easier to accept the overhand if you refer to it as the "european death knot".
but seriously it works fine...just leave plenty of tails.
> Double fishermans or the overhand knot?
>
> Psychologically I prefer the double fishermans but I have been told the overhand is better ...
>
> Any thoughts oh experienced and opinionated UKC members ?
>
> Psychologically I prefer the double fishermans but I have been told the overhand is better ...
>
> Any thoughts oh experienced and opinionated UKC members ?
it might make it mentally easier to accept the overhand if you refer to it as the "european death knot".
but seriously it works fine...just leave plenty of tails.
In reply to climbingcritter:
I use an over hand knot with long tails (60cm); it’s recommend in the books as well.
If you prefer you can use a double fishermans but they can snag more when being pulled down and be hard to undo. If you put a reef knot in the middle it can then be easily undone after being weighted.
I use an over hand knot with long tails (60cm); it’s recommend in the books as well.
If you prefer you can use a double fishermans but they can snag more when being pulled down and be hard to undo. If you put a reef knot in the middle it can then be easily undone after being weighted.
In reply to Morgan Woods: the european death knot is the figure of eight! as it literally comes undone with very little force if the ropes are wet or icy and if the knot is not tied tightly!
In reply to climbingcritter:
Are both ropes the same thickness?
Are both ropes the same thickness?
In reply to climbingcritter:
Double fisherman's knot for me...
A quick search will send you to 3 million or so other opinions in numerous previous threads on the subject though!
PS. I can never understand why people choose a knot that they say themselves can slip over one that doesn't! Each to his own though... the snagging of a knot with long tails and second knots doubled up seems unlikely to be less probable than a double fisherman's though?
I suspect that as usual it is a question of fads.
PPS. A double fisherman's knot is not difficult to undo, this is simply not true.
Double fisherman's knot for me...
A quick search will send you to 3 million or so other opinions in numerous previous threads on the subject though!
PS. I can never understand why people choose a knot that they say themselves can slip over one that doesn't! Each to his own though... the snagging of a knot with long tails and second knots doubled up seems unlikely to be less probable than a double fisherman's though?
I suspect that as usual it is a question of fads.
PPS. A double fisherman's knot is not difficult to undo, this is simply not true.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Really? I think it's more due to a refinement of old techniques as we gain a better understanding and learn through experience.
A double overhand (as described above and in numerous other posts) will not slip, is easy to tie, and retains the "one flat side" benefit so I can't understand why anyone would choose to use a double fishermans. Each to their own I suppose.
I'd always use the double fishermans with ropes of different diameters though. Just a question of picking the right knot for the situation IMO.
>
> I suspect that as usual it is a question of fads.
>
> I suspect that as usual it is a question of fads.
>
Really? I think it's more due to a refinement of old techniques as we gain a better understanding and learn through experience.
A double overhand (as described above and in numerous other posts) will not slip, is easy to tie, and retains the "one flat side" benefit so I can't understand why anyone would choose to use a double fishermans. Each to their own I suppose.
I'd always use the double fishermans with ropes of different diameters though. Just a question of picking the right knot for the situation IMO.
In reply to owlart:
The danger with very long tails on the knot is that you can end up absailing off them. Overhand is the knot of choice for joining similar diameter ropes for me in most circumstances.
jk
> Make sure you leave long tails (60cm+) on the knot to allow for 'slippage'!
The danger with very long tails on the knot is that you can end up absailing off them. Overhand is the knot of choice for joining similar diameter ropes for me in most circumstances.
jk
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:
The EDK is the overhand. It was (mis)named that by Merkins who saw Euros using it and thought it was unsafe.
You're correct in saying that the fig-8 is dangerous.
> (In reply to Morgan Woods) the european death knot is the figure of eight! as it literally comes undone with very little force if the ropes are wet or icy and if the knot is not tied tightly!
The EDK is the overhand. It was (mis)named that by Merkins who saw Euros using it and thought it was unsafe.
You're correct in saying that the fig-8 is dangerous.
In reply to mike swann: OK, I sit corrected! I suppose it does look a bit death-defying!
We did an abseil on saturday and couldn't get the knot untied until we got back to the warmth and thawed the ropes out!
We did an abseil on saturday and couldn't get the knot untied until we got back to the warmth and thawed the ropes out!
A method shown to me years ago by a qualified alpine guide was to first tie a reef not then to do the double fishermans either side. The explanation was that this makes it easier to undo. Maybe it makes it safer too?
In reply to climbingcritter:
You have been told exactly right.
> Psychologically I prefer the double fishermans but I have been told the overhand is better ...
You have been told exactly right.
In reply to Clinger:
It doesn't seem to have reduced the number of accidents though, does it?... It's not just knots that get stuck, even the end of a rope can whip into a slot. The question of slippage comes from all those that advise using long tails to avoid it... not me, I don't see the point of changing from a knot that works fine.
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
> Really? I think it's more due to a refinement of old techniques as we gain a better understanding and learn through experience.
It doesn't seem to have reduced the number of accidents though, does it?... It's not just knots that get stuck, even the end of a rope can whip into a slot. The question of slippage comes from all those that advise using long tails to avoid it... not me, I don't see the point of changing from a knot that works fine.
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
In reply to mintcake:
A reef-knot between a double fishermans does make it easier to undo, but it is a big, bulky knot and a fiddle to tie with cold hands.
Don't want to sound like a put-down but one problem with things you learnt years ago is that sometimes they are overtaken by newer, better techniques.
> A method shown to me years ago by a qualified alpine guide was to first tie a reef not then to do the double fishermans either side. The explanation was that this makes it easier to undo. Maybe it makes it safer too?
A reef-knot between a double fishermans does make it easier to undo, but it is a big, bulky knot and a fiddle to tie with cold hands.
Don't want to sound like a put-down but one problem with things you learnt years ago is that sometimes they are overtaken by newer, better techniques.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I don't recall anyone saying either knot was the cause of belaying accidents. I think both are perfectly safe to belay off.
I know, but you were quoting the slippage as a reason not to use an overhand knot so my response was that there is no question of slippage if using a double overhand.
Then don't change. You'd be in the minority but nothing wrong with that. People change because they find that a double fishermans gets stuck more easilly and can be hard to untie. You don't appear to share these problems so don't bother changing. But please don't dismiss other people's experience and opinions as a fad. I think people generally make up their own minds about stuff on here and develop an approach that seems most appropriate to their requirements.
> (In reply to Clinger)
>
> It doesn't seem to have reduced the number of accidents though, does it?...
>
> It doesn't seem to have reduced the number of accidents though, does it?...
I don't recall anyone saying either knot was the cause of belaying accidents. I think both are perfectly safe to belay off.
> The question of slippage comes from all those that advise using long tails to avoid it... not me
I know, but you were quoting the slippage as a reason not to use an overhand knot so my response was that there is no question of slippage if using a double overhand.
> I don't see the point of changing from a knot that works fine.
Then don't change. You'd be in the minority but nothing wrong with that. People change because they find that a double fishermans gets stuck more easilly and can be hard to untie. You don't appear to share these problems so don't bother changing. But please don't dismiss other people's experience and opinions as a fad. I think people generally make up their own minds about stuff on here and develop an approach that seems most appropriate to their requirements.
In reply to jkarran: You're not going to abseil off a 60cm tail! I said overhand too!
In reply to Clinger:
I though he wanted to abseil, not belay?
It's also noticeable that training programs have normalised and changed practices and attitudes in Britain. Elsewhere people use slightly different methods... all work, more or less, so I don't see why the present UK normalised methods should be any less of a fad than those used elsewhere.
People seem to get very uptight anytime someone suggest other methods... like not using chalk, clipping two ropes into the same crab, not using ski sticks for hiking... there seems to be a climbing version of "politically correct" these days.
I blame all those SPAM thingies myself... turning out a generation of robots...
<darlek voice>
"There is no other solution.... There is no other solution.... There is no other solution.... There is no other solution.... "
</darlek voice>
I though he wanted to abseil, not belay?
It's also noticeable that training programs have normalised and changed practices and attitudes in Britain. Elsewhere people use slightly different methods... all work, more or less, so I don't see why the present UK normalised methods should be any less of a fad than those used elsewhere.
People seem to get very uptight anytime someone suggest other methods... like not using chalk, clipping two ropes into the same crab, not using ski sticks for hiking... there seems to be a climbing version of "politically correct" these days.
I blame all those SPAM thingies myself... turning out a generation of robots...
<darlek voice>
"There is no other solution.... There is no other solution.... There is no other solution.... There is no other solution.... "
</darlek voice>
In reply to climbingcritter:
Overhand? are you kidding me?
NEVER use an overhand (or "granny") knot for climbing purposes, ever.
For tying two ropes together the double fisherman's is best.
Overhand? are you kidding me?
NEVER use an overhand (or "granny") knot for climbing purposes, ever.
For tying two ropes together the double fisherman's is best.
In reply to Mystery Toad: I always thought a granny knot was a mistied reef knot? Either way, your statement is ridiculous.
In reply to Mystery Toad:
I don't think you know what you're talking about. Neither in this instance in particular or, in fact, in general. A granny knot isn't even the same thing as an overhand.
I don't think you know what you're talking about. Neither in this instance in particular or, in fact, in general. A granny knot isn't even the same thing as an overhand.
In reply to Mystery Toad:
You have so much to learn about the language an overhand is NOT a granny knot (but I'm guessing you already knew that ?).
You have so much to learn about the language an overhand is NOT a granny knot (but I'm guessing you already knew that ?).
In reply to Mystery Toad:
This is a granny knot - it's a reef (or square as I think you colonials call it) knot tied wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granny_knot
This is a good discussion on knots to ab off - the conclusion being the overhand is best all round:
http://www.psychovertical.com/?abseilknot
This is a granny knot - it's a reef (or square as I think you colonials call it) knot tied wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granny_knot
This is a good discussion on knots to ab off - the conclusion being the overhand is best all round:
http://www.psychovertical.com/?abseilknot
In reply to Beowulf:
I think you'll find a reef knot is a mistied Granny knot.
Agreed.
> (In reply to Mystery Toad) I always thought a granny knot was a mistied reef knot?
I think you'll find a reef knot is a mistied Granny knot.
> Either way, your statement is ridiculous.
Agreed.
In reply to quadmyre:
Did you read down to the end of the text pointed by the second link?
I reckon life's short enough as it is without taking unnecessary risks.
Did you read down to the end of the text pointed by the second link?
I reckon life's short enough as it is without taking unnecessary risks.
In reply to Beowulf:
my statement is ridiculous is it.
If I've mistaken the "overhand" for a "granny" that's hardly the point here.
The fisherman's is UNQUESTIONABLY best for not just tying ropes together, but most PARTICULARLY when said ropes are abseiled off.
I dunno what you lot think you're doin here. Being funny?
You're being irresponsible when you take the opportunity to slag me (which is fine) on a very serious subject especially when you're DEAD WRONG (which isn't fine). k? do whatcha like, just don't encourage newbies to do things that may result in DEATH FFS. nevermind.
my statement is ridiculous is it.
If I've mistaken the "overhand" for a "granny" that's hardly the point here.
The fisherman's is UNQUESTIONABLY best for not just tying ropes together, but most PARTICULARLY when said ropes are abseiled off.
I dunno what you lot think you're doin here. Being funny?
You're being irresponsible when you take the opportunity to slag me (which is fine) on a very serious subject especially when you're DEAD WRONG (which isn't fine). k? do whatcha like, just don't encourage newbies to do things that may result in DEATH FFS. nevermind.
In reply to Mystery Toad:
what are you on about?! Overhand knot is fine, I've never heard of it failing before, and most people I know use it.
what are you on about?! Overhand knot is fine, I've never heard of it failing before, and most people I know use it.
In reply to climbingcritter: 3 options here (double fisherman's, rethtreaded fig of 8, and overhand). Can't say I've even worried about which knot to tie in end of abseil rope...usually just tie an overhand (easy and saves time).
http://climbing.about.com/b/2006/10/24/the-knots-used-for-tying-two-ropes-t...
http://climbing.about.com/b/2006/10/24/the-knots-used-for-tying-two-ropes-t...
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Yep. That's why the text and photos recommend the double overhand (overhand backed up by overhand) rather than single overhand which most people use fine. I also read a good article where someone did some actual pull and shock-testing of various knots and concluded that the worst that could happen with an overhand is that it may roll once. The double prevents this happening. I tend to go for the double myself.
I can only assume mystery trump is either on a wind-up drive or is confusing the overhand with the fig-8 tied the same way which actually IS dangerous (will roll endlessly at low loads).
Yep. That's why the text and photos recommend the double overhand (overhand backed up by overhand) rather than single overhand which most people use fine. I also read a good article where someone did some actual pull and shock-testing of various knots and concluded that the worst that could happen with an overhand is that it may roll once. The double prevents this happening. I tend to go for the double myself.
I can only assume mystery trump is either on a wind-up drive or is confusing the overhand with the fig-8 tied the same way which actually IS dangerous (will roll endlessly at low loads).
In reply to climbingcritter: double overhand knot
In reply to DaveR:
Of course they do, thanks to SPAM!
<darlek voice>
"There is no other solution.... There is no other solution.... There is no other solution.... There is no other solution.... "
</darlek voice>
> and most people I know use it.
Of course they do, thanks to SPAM!
<darlek voice>
"There is no other solution.... There is no other solution.... There is no other solution.... There is no other solution.... "
</darlek voice>
In reply to quadmyre:
I think he is confusing it with a reef knot... this could be generation thing though, I had never heard of an overhand knot until I started posting on UKC a couple of years ago. I left the uk in 74 and had had no contact with British climbing circles since... didn't realise he was that old though!
I think he is confusing it with a reef knot... this could be generation thing though, I had never heard of an overhand knot until I started posting on UKC a couple of years ago. I left the uk in 74 and had had no contact with British climbing circles since... didn't realise he was that old though!
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Haha, I think most people have used both at some time and just decided which one they prefer. Nothing to do with what the latest fad is or spam.
Haha, I think most people have used both at some time and just decided which one they prefer. Nothing to do with what the latest fad is or spam.
In reply to Mystery Toad:
Uhm but he / we are not dead wrong and our advice will not result in death.
The double fishermans is a strong knot but has the disadvantages that it takes longer to tie (and probably very difficult in winter conditions with gloves on). It is also much harder to untie after being loaded (again especially so in bad conditions). It also is not asymetrical so does not roll over edges so well so can be more likely to jam.
No-one has a problem with you using whatever knot you prefer but stop making a tit of yourself by spreading misinformation.
Uhm but he / we are not dead wrong and our advice will not result in death.
The double fishermans is a strong knot but has the disadvantages that it takes longer to tie (and probably very difficult in winter conditions with gloves on). It is also much harder to untie after being loaded (again especially so in bad conditions). It also is not asymetrical so does not roll over edges so well so can be more likely to jam.
No-one has a problem with you using whatever knot you prefer but stop making a tit of yourself by spreading misinformation.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Sorry mate, I meant abseil.
I agree that a lot of people get overly concerned with finding the one "correct" answer for isuues where they'd be much better served understanding all of teh solutions to the problem and selecting the one that most fits their current circumstances.
That said, the use of chalk has been hotly debated since its introduction to climbing. As usual it's abuse rather than use that creates the problem. If too much is used and it's not cleaned off afterwards, then it can ruin the challenge of route-finding.
Not clipping two ropes through the same draw is again very good advice as doing so can be dangerous IF you aren't doing so for the whole route, as in a fall, the ropes will move at different speeds resulting in a lot of friction / heat, thus knackering your ropes.
Walking poles = Coulnd't give a fig eitehr way! Why do people care? Use them if you like them and don't if you don't. Simple.
Sorry mate, I meant abseil.
I agree that a lot of people get overly concerned with finding the one "correct" answer for isuues where they'd be much better served understanding all of teh solutions to the problem and selecting the one that most fits their current circumstances.
That said, the use of chalk has been hotly debated since its introduction to climbing. As usual it's abuse rather than use that creates the problem. If too much is used and it's not cleaned off afterwards, then it can ruin the challenge of route-finding.
Not clipping two ropes through the same draw is again very good advice as doing so can be dangerous IF you aren't doing so for the whole route, as in a fall, the ropes will move at different speeds resulting in a lot of friction / heat, thus knackering your ropes.
Walking poles = Coulnd't give a fig eitehr way! Why do people care? Use them if you like them and don't if you don't. Simple.
In reply to Mystery Toad: You really need to check your facts before you make statements like this. I don't appreciate your tone, especially when what your saying is quite clearly wrong. My view is backed up by several articles on the British Mountaineering Council site as well as the personal experience of probably thousands of other European climbers who use overhand knots for abbing, including I imagine many of the users of this site. Now please be more careful of your reactionary language in the future, you're not presenting yourself in a good light.
In reply to Mystery Toad:
Was about to respond to this but see that many otehrs have already. Make your own choice, but my decision was to choose based on solid research.
> (In reply to climbingcritter)
>
> Overhand? are you kidding me?
> NEVER use an overhand (or "granny") knot for climbing purposes, ever.
>
> For tying two ropes together the double fisherman's is best.
>
> Overhand? are you kidding me?
> NEVER use an overhand (or "granny") knot for climbing purposes, ever.
>
> For tying two ropes together the double fisherman's is best.
Was about to respond to this but see that many otehrs have already. Make your own choice, but my decision was to choose based on solid research.
In reply to Mystery Toad:
Normally I ignore your witterings; but on this you are plain wrong.
Stick to Monty Python & pictures of toads.
> Overhand? are you kidding me?
> NEVER use an overhand (or "granny") knot for climbing purposes, ever.
> NEVER use an overhand (or "granny") knot for climbing purposes, ever.
Normally I ignore your witterings; but on this you are plain wrong.
Stick to Monty Python & pictures of toads.
In reply to Mystery Toad:
I would be genuinely interested to know where a chap can gain his climbing experience and never have come across the (quite legitimate) use of an overhand knot for joining two abseil ropes?
> (In reply to climbingcritter)
>
> Overhand? are you kidding me?
> NEVER use an overhand (or "granny") knot for climbing purposes, ever.
>
> For tying two ropes together the double fisherman's is best.
>
> Overhand? are you kidding me?
> NEVER use an overhand (or "granny") knot for climbing purposes, ever.
>
> For tying two ropes together the double fisherman's is best.
I would be genuinely interested to know where a chap can gain his climbing experience and never have come across the (quite legitimate) use of an overhand knot for joining two abseil ropes?
In reply to karl walton:
America?
America?
In reply to owlart:
You could just! However, I was really pointing out the danger of leaving very long 1m+ tails (as some people do) where it's quite possible in windy/rushed conditions to accidentally ab off one of the tails
Good? I wasn't having a pop
jk
> You're not going to abseil off a 60cm tail!
You could just! However, I was really pointing out the danger of leaving very long 1m+ tails (as some people do) where it's quite possible in windy/rushed conditions to accidentally ab off one of the tails
> I said overhand too!
Good? I wasn't having a pop
jk
In reply to Paddy Duncan: home of the american death triangle and the very unsafe web-o-lette amongst other dodgy techniques...
In reply to Paddy Duncan:
You may well be right, but I can't really say it's a perculiarity I have noticed in other climbers from that neck of the woods!
> (In reply to karl walton)
> America?
> America?
You may well be right, but I can't really say it's a perculiarity I have noticed in other climbers from that neck of the woods!
In reply to Mystery Toad:
Very few things in life are or should be unquestionable MT.
Just because he does things slightly differently to you doesn't make him DEAD WRONG.
jk
> The fisherman's is UNQUESTIONABLY best for not just tying ropes together, but most PARTICULARLY when said ropes are abseiled off.
Very few things in life are or should be unquestionable MT.
> ...a very serious subject especially when you're DEAD WRONG (which isn't fine). k? do whatcha like, just don't encourage newbies to do things that may result in DEATH FFS. nevermind.
Just because he does things slightly differently to you doesn't make him DEAD WRONG.
jk
In reply to karl walton:
Hmm, quite the reverse for me, if you are talking about thinking there is only one way to do things, and only that way is right.......and not just referring to climbers
> (In reply to Paddy Duncan)
> [...]
>
> You may well be right, but I can't really say it's a perculiarity I have noticed in other climbers from that neck of the woods!
> [...]
>
> You may well be right, but I can't really say it's a perculiarity I have noticed in other climbers from that neck of the woods!
Hmm, quite the reverse for me, if you are talking about thinking there is only one way to do things, and only that way is right.......and not just referring to climbers
In reply to Paddy Duncan:
I was talking specifically about the use (or otherwise) of the knot in question.
I was talking specifically about the use (or otherwise) of the knot in question.
In reply to Dom Whillans:
A Web-o-lette isn't a technique, it's just a brand of snake-sling. It is both incorrect and inflammatory to imply it is unsafe just because it comes from the States; it's just a sling. No need to join MT in talking pish.
http://www.psychovertical.com/?snakecord
http://www.mtntools.com/cat/mt/webolette/webolette.html
> (In reply to Paddy Duncan) home of the american death triangle and the very unsafe web-o-lette amongst other dodgy techniques...
A Web-o-lette isn't a technique, it's just a brand of snake-sling. It is both incorrect and inflammatory to imply it is unsafe just because it comes from the States; it's just a sling. No need to join MT in talking pish.
http://www.psychovertical.com/?snakecord
http://www.mtntools.com/cat/mt/webolette/webolette.html
In reply to Mystery Toad:
Of course its the point. It shows you know Jack about knots.
> (In reply to Beowulf)
>
> my statement is ridiculous is it.
> If I've mistaken the "overhand" for a "granny" that's hardly the point here.
>
> my statement is ridiculous is it.
> If I've mistaken the "overhand" for a "granny" that's hardly the point here.
Of course its the point. It shows you know Jack about knots.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Best take up basket weaving, then.
> I reckon life's short enough as it is without taking unnecessary risks.
Best take up basket weaving, then.
In reply to Beowulf:
Are you sure you mean reactionary? I suppose being 1200 years old you may not be used to modern English
> Now please be more careful of your reactionary language in the future...
Are you sure you mean reactionary? I suppose being 1200 years old you may not be used to modern English
In reply to karl walton:
Quite simple really... I last climbed in the UK in the early 70s and have lived in France since and I'd never heard of this knot until I started reading these endless threads about what I thought was a non-issue on ukc I'd never seen chalk either till it started invading Fontainebleau a few years ago... as for the horror of ski sticks on footpaths, I've still not got used to this plague.
> I would be genuinely interested to know where a chap can gain his climbing experience and never have come across the (quite legitimate) use of an overhand knot for joining two abseil ropes?
Quite simple really... I last climbed in the UK in the early 70s and have lived in France since and I'd never heard of this knot until I started reading these endless threads about what I thought was a non-issue on ukc I'd never seen chalk either till it started invading Fontainebleau a few years ago... as for the horror of ski sticks on footpaths, I've still not got used to this plague.
In reply to Bruce Hooker: You're right, wasn't what I meant at all, apologies.
In reply to Chato Fan Club: i consider it to be unsafe because building a belay out of static cord / tape rather than climbing rope removes a whole bundle (note scientific terminology!) of shock absorbance from the system. Webolette type slings are also notoriously difficult to equalise properly. Rope isn't. i use a long sling as a long sling. i build belays from rope.
In reply to climbingcritter: As I often climb on two ropes of different diameters, and am a big believer in knowing a minimum number of knots, but being able to tie them blindfold, I always use a double fishermans to join two ropes for an abseil.
In reply to Mystery Toad:
What you write is utter toss. From observation - several periods climbing and descending desert towers in Utah and similar - I can assure you that the EDK/ overhand is a standard rappel knot in the US. If you think otherwise it is because your experience is now out of date, period.
> The fisherman's is UNQUESTIONABLY best for not just tying ropes together, but most PARTICULARLY when said ropes are abseiled off.
> I dunno what you lot think you're doin here. Being funny?
> You're being irresponsible when you take the opportunity to slag me (which is fine) on a very serious subject especially when you're DEAD WRONG (which isn't fine). k? do whatcha like, just don't encourage newbies to do things that may result in DEATH FFS. nevermind.
> I dunno what you lot think you're doin here. Being funny?
> You're being irresponsible when you take the opportunity to slag me (which is fine) on a very serious subject especially when you're DEAD WRONG (which isn't fine). k? do whatcha like, just don't encourage newbies to do things that may result in DEATH FFS. nevermind.
What you write is utter toss. From observation - several periods climbing and descending desert towers in Utah and similar - I can assure you that the EDK/ overhand is a standard rappel knot in the US. If you think otherwise it is because your experience is now out of date, period.
In reply to Mystery Toad:
I beg to differ
<anyway this has been done to death on here before>
> (In reply to climbingcritter)
>
> Overhand? are you kidding me?
> NEVER use an overhand (or "granny") knot for climbing purposes, ever.
>
> For tying two ropes together the double fisherman's is best.
>
> Overhand? are you kidding me?
> NEVER use an overhand (or "granny") knot for climbing purposes, ever.
>
> For tying two ropes together the double fisherman's is best.
I beg to differ
<anyway this has been done to death on here before>
In reply to nz Cragrat:
and BTW what they refer to as the EDK is not the overhand but the Fig8 version!!! There has been a lot of confusion (as usual) in the US forums over this.
and BTW what they refer to as the EDK is not the overhand but the Fig8 version!!! There has been a lot of confusion (as usual) in the US forums over this.
In reply to climbingcritter:
and ...
in my view the overhand is great. I have used it for aeons and am happy with it. If you ave any doubts do what has been mentioned and do a 2nd knot up against it. My tails are usually only 30cm....
and ...
in my view the overhand is great. I have used it for aeons and am happy with it. If you ave any doubts do what has been mentioned and do a 2nd knot up against it. My tails are usually only 30cm....
In reply to nz Cragrat:
As I said earlier in the thread, Merkins started calling the overhand the EDK because they didn't like the look of something so simple. Their useage may have changed recently, but it was originally the overhand that was called EDK, NOT fig-8.
> (In reply to nz Cragrat)
>
>
> and BTW what they refer to as the EDK is not the overhand but the Fig8 version!!! There has been a lot of confusion (as usual) in the US forums over this.
>
>
> and BTW what they refer to as the EDK is not the overhand but the Fig8 version!!! There has been a lot of confusion (as usual) in the US forums over this.
As I said earlier in the thread, Merkins started calling the overhand the EDK because they didn't like the look of something so simple. Their useage may have changed recently, but it was originally the overhand that was called EDK, NOT fig-8.
In reply to mike swann:
the issue was two different knots and one term.
EDK was applied to the safer O/H knot as you say because it looked less safe yet it was the fig 8 version that is the weaker and the true EDK. You will probably also find that EDK is or has been applied to both forms
the issue was two different knots and one term.
EDK was applied to the safer O/H knot as you say because it looked less safe yet it was the fig 8 version that is the weaker and the true EDK. You will probably also find that EDK is or has been applied to both forms
In reply to nz Cragrat: Exactly. There is so much misleading terminology used in climbing for knots.
People here have been referring to the tying of two overhands as a double overhand. Unfortunately that's the knot used for a stopper (often referred to as half a double fishermans, how unwieldy is that). It would, perhaps, be better called a twin overhand, or even just 2 overhands.
Is it time for a thread on knot names? Nah, that would go on forever.
People here have been referring to the tying of two overhands as a double overhand. Unfortunately that's the knot used for a stopper (often referred to as half a double fishermans, how unwieldy is that). It would, perhaps, be better called a twin overhand, or even just 2 overhands.
Is it time for a thread on knot names? Nah, that would go on forever.
In reply to all:
[nb: "message contains words that are consdiered unsuitable..." ???? I don't see!? ]-:
The EDK (an Offset Water knot) has been used for ages w/o much trouble, so far as I'm aware.
But taking the Fig.8 bend into an offset orientation, also used by many, HAS resulted in some
accidents, even fatalities. An **offset** knot is favored because of its greatly improved flow
over edges & impediments on a rock surface; the EDK (Offset Ring Bend/OffsetW*terKnot) is
also quickly tied, compact, and readily untiable after loading by abseiling.
And, as a consequence of the EDK being asymmetric, it happens that it can work particularly
WELL with the sort of mis-matched, different-diameter ropes often seen in abseiling--e.g.,
one 10.2mm climbing rope paired with a 7mm haul line. Tie the knot such that the THINNER
rope is what makes the initial choke of the loaded parts.
There are some quite simple means to "backing up"/securing the Offset Water Knot:
tie the end of one rope around the other end, snug against the knot body (preferably, tie the
thinner end around the thicker, if different dia.s);
make an extra, full turn around the loaded ends with the rope that will first choke them,
before leading its end out in parallel with the other (this makes a Fig.9 knot in this rope).
These precautions remove the need for "leaving long ends"--a bit of advice that certainly goes
a way to making the EDK seem dubious! (-:
*kN*
[nb: "message contains words that are consdiered unsuitable..." ???? I don't see!? ]-:
The EDK (an Offset Water knot) has been used for ages w/o much trouble, so far as I'm aware.
But taking the Fig.8 bend into an offset orientation, also used by many, HAS resulted in some
accidents, even fatalities. An **offset** knot is favored because of its greatly improved flow
over edges & impediments on a rock surface; the EDK (Offset Ring Bend/OffsetW*terKnot) is
also quickly tied, compact, and readily untiable after loading by abseiling.
And, as a consequence of the EDK being asymmetric, it happens that it can work particularly
WELL with the sort of mis-matched, different-diameter ropes often seen in abseiling--e.g.,
one 10.2mm climbing rope paired with a 7mm haul line. Tie the knot such that the THINNER
rope is what makes the initial choke of the loaded parts.
There are some quite simple means to "backing up"/securing the Offset Water Knot:
tie the end of one rope around the other end, snug against the knot body (preferably, tie the
thinner end around the thicker, if different dia.s);
make an extra, full turn around the loaded ends with the rope that will first choke them,
before leading its end out in parallel with the other (this makes a Fig.9 knot in this rope).
These precautions remove the need for "leaving long ends"--a bit of advice that certainly goes
a way to making the EDK seem dubious! (-:
*kN*
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:
Thanks for that link,
and WOW, what a debate!
Thanks for all your advice and opinions, at least now I know overhand knots are safe, I still don't think I could psychologically trust a single overhand, it'll be 2 overhands for me.
Much appreciated,
Sal
Thanks for that link,
and WOW, what a debate!
Thanks for all your advice and opinions, at least now I know overhand knots are safe, I still don't think I could psychologically trust a single overhand, it'll be 2 overhands for me.
Much appreciated,
Sal
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