UKC

I'm current thinking of getting some Vivobarefoot shoes for trail running.

I've had problems in the past running that have been mostly sorted by going zero drop and wide toebox (Altras) but now tempted to take it a step further to see if there are any more benefits to be seen.

I'd start by just wearing them casually and build it up with very short runs, taking my time and responding to feedback I get from my body.

But they aren't cheap, so it's a bit of a pricey experiment.

My feet are generally quite week (or at least i think they are) so I'm keep to build up strength in them if I can.

I had a pretty bad injury last year rolling my ankle after a long run on a pothole. I was pretty tired and not paying attention. Didn't realise what was happening until I felt and heard the tendons popping. Fortunately it wasn't too serious, but still get niggles from it. I do wonder if I could feel more of the surface through my shoes that I would have felt the edge of the pothole and done something about it before the rolling had started.

Most reviews I've found are by regular barefoot converts. I seem to hear less from people that have tried them, felt it didn't work, and then gave up, so wondering if there are any here that have any first hand feedback?

In reply to montyjohn:

From experience of running in very minimal shoes, I don't think you will continue to benefit once you've sorted out the running mechanics - as in your case.  Sticking to Altra type shoe will be better for your feet on trail runs compared to something without a midsole.  Zero to 4mm but wide forefoot for non-technical trails will be better for you.  Stack height makes a difference and I really appreciate the difference between, e.g. Lone Peak vs Superior, for happier post-run legs.

In reply to montyjohn:

I'll start by saying outside of running in the mountains, or the super cold, I'm a total convert. I've been using minimalist shoes for 10+ years though, so I have nothing to advise on getting used to them or that they didn't work for me. 

My wife's ankle has a habit of turning and being a bit weak, but whenever she's in Vivo's, she never turns it, as (she feels) that she gets much more feedback from her foot, and she can stop it from turning. She doesn't run in them however, and just walks. She runs in Altra's now. 

As for price, Vivo also have another shop https://www.revivo.com/ where they sell refurbished shoes etc. We now always try here before buying a new pair.  

I think Vivo have the 100 day trial thing, so might be worth giving it a shot either way. 

In reply to druss:

Just to confirm, you're saying you prefer Lone peaks because of their higher stack height. I'm actually running in Timps at the moment that have an even higher stack height, and another option I was thinking of was trying Lone Peaks in the hope they would somewhat reduce the risk of rolling an ankle and provide a bit more feedback.

For reference:

• Timps - 29mm
• Lone Peaks -25mm
• Superiors - 21mm 

In reply to montyjohn:

I suffered from shin splints while running for quite a while. Back in the early 2000s, during peak barefoot running fad I decided to try running with Vibran fivefinger shoes. I would say that it was great for me but I no longer use super minimalist shoes. First of all you have to build up slowly. It forces a forefront strike when you land and for me, a heel striker, it absolutely killed my calves. I went from regular 10k runs to only being able to run 2-3 km in the new shoes. What it did do for me was change my stride from a heel strike gait to a forefoot strike gait. I was living in Canada at the time and when winter came I didn't want to be running in barefoot shoes so I bought some Nike Frees which were pretty minimalist and ran in those and since then I've gone back to more of a normal shoe, with more of a mid foot strike and haven't had any issues with shin splints since then.  I would say I tried them, they worked for what I wanted to do, help to fix my stride, but I appreciated having a bit more padding below my foot when I was running.

In reply to montyjohn:

I use barefoot shoes 90% of the time in my everyday life, and I'm a total convert.

I run in Primus Trails very occasionally, but only for short runs and not often. However, I generally prefer something a little more structured for running. I always go for a wide toe-box. I do like a low drop, as I have one ankle that is quite lax because of a missing ligament and this feels more stable than the drop on traditional running shoes. However, for hilly runs, my achilles thank me for using shoes with a drop that is slightly more than zero. I also like something with a little bit of mid-sole, especially for longer runs.

In reply to peterdavidgrant:

Yours and Gazmataz experience sounds very similar.

I'm currently suffering from mild shinsplint. Gets worse if I do sprints, then slowly get better if I stick with long slow runs.

In reply to montyjohn:

Barefoot shoes is an oxymoron.

The danger with minimalist shoes is that there's enough abrasion prevention to allow slightly poor form, and therefore increase the risk of injury.

I find that it's best to keep mixing in actual barefoot running with the minimalist shoe running to avoid regressing in form.

In reply to montyjohn:

Have a go.  They're basically like running in PE plimsolls but a bit fancier.

Start slowly, though, or injury is likely.

I wear them for day to day shoes at the moment but not for running, I'm too fat at the moment and it's a bit harsh on my tendons etc.

In reply to montyjohn:

I use them on paths as you can feel every stone through the soles. However as someone else said it's very unlikely that you would have rolled your ankle wearing them.

In reply to montyjohn:

Yes, but I've not tried anything higher.  I went from no midsole trail and road (5+ years of running) to the Superior and finally settled on Lone Peak stack height.  Not seen a need to go higher for the distances I cover.  Personally it was much more comfortable adding some cushioning.  Going from Timps to no midsole for 10 - 15km distance, I think would be challenging physically with an unclear benefit when your running mechanics and strength is already optimized,

You could consider Inov8 which are a firmer ride and super good.  There was a period of time they didn't have a zero drop wide option so I ended up on Altra's.  

In reply to montyjohn:

My personal view is that they are worth taking the risk - the Primus firm ground shoes are the shoes that I use just generally in life and I love them. So even if you don't get on with running in them, they are still great shoes for daily life/walking - mine have lasted regular use for ca. 8 years now. 

Personal experience is that I run 3-5km in barefoot shoes, but for longer runs I switch to Topo Terraventures.

In reply to montyjohn:

I had them for a while and was happy running in them up to about 6km and used them for everyday walking. Now currently using hokas for trail running, hardly minimal, and On running shoes, but one of their least cushioned models, for road running, up to half marathon. Both models serve their purpose, not sure I would like to be bounding down a rocky trail in vivobarefoots. But I love them for walking around etc.

In reply to montyjohn:

I don't have first hand experience (I quite like a bit of drop/cushioning) but this article by Fliss might be worth a read: 

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/series/skills/barefoot_walkin...

In reply to all:

As a slight hijack, my everyday shoes are on their way out, and I'm interested in trying out a pair of barefoot style shoes for everyday walking as apposed to running, perhaps also some shorter hikes/scrambles (thanks Dan Bailey for the link, interesting article). Can anyone recommend a model (I've got quite narrow feet with high arches if that makes a difference)?

And to anyone who uses barefoot style shoes for everyday walking, did you have any issues transitioning from more conventional shoes?

In reply to montyjohn:

I think and if I get chance I'll try and find the journal, I don't think there's any correlation between barefoot running and reduced injury rates. I think the correlation is with mileage, and both barefoot/cushioned shoes see similar injury rates as mileage increases. What you tend to see is barefoot acolytes preaching about the sins of maximal shoes. I remember a blog post about someone doing the fellsman in barefoot sandals and being forced to carry shoes with him to pass kit check, it's zeal of the convert.

As one poster said above, mixing it up seems to be the optimal choice. A bit of minimal shoes running, some cushioning on other runs and then mixing up paces to ensure you keep that range of movement and cadence good. 

But at the end of the day, it's whatever works for you. If you like the feel of barefoot shoes crack on, but keep it sensible in the build up.

In reply to MikeR:

So I've had my Vivobarefoot Primus FGs for two days now form revevo (went for great condition, instead of excellent condition, and they still look new to me), so obviously way to early to tell you anything useful, but first impression is they feel like any other shoe to me.

I was expecting to feel every stone and I'd need to toughen up the soles of my feet, but the feedback from the ground is very minimal. I went for a very slow half mile jog and nothing felt out of the ordinary.

I guess we'll see. I'm going to be careful with them, but my early prediction is that I'm not going to need much of a transition, at least for walking and short runs.

[worth noting, the FGs I guess have a much tougher sole than most bareroots, I'm also used to running in Altras so already well accustom to zero drop and wide toe boxes]

In reply to MikeR:

in terms of transitioning for walking I didn't find any troubles. I put them on for the first time before going round Malham and all I noticed was my feet felt very tired at the end of the day.  Since then they don't feel tired anymore after long walks unless for whatever reason I have spent a period of time in normal shoes or not going on long walks. 

This page has an image towards the bottom showing brands from narrow to wide. FYI you also don't have arch support in barefoot shoes as your arches are meant to get stronger without it.  However YMMV

https://anyasreviews.com/best-barefoot-shoes-foot-type/

I wear some leather vivos for work, I often stand on my feet all day and did notice that my feet took a couple weeks to adapt. Nothing more than a bit more ache than usual. The biggest difference I find now is that my feet recover from standing all day much quicker and at the end of the day I never get that feeling that I desperately need to remove my shoes!!

I also use a pair of primus trails for hill walking/approaches in dry conditions. Have no problems there but I do go for my boots in the wet/rough or when carrying an overnight pack.

I have a pre-barefoot Achilles injury that prevents me from running but may be interesting to note that I have no issues with day-to-day barefoot shoe wear.

In reply to montyjohn:

Absolutely not fashionable or cool bang on-trend but if you want to be 2/3rds the way (between giant wedge heels trainers and minimalist shoes) you can buy "Chucks" (Converse Chuck Taylor, as a shoe not boot)

They are flat (i.e. not raised heel), have a wider toe box and thinner sole. Some cheapo copies have an even thinner sole! Cheapo copies might set you back anywhere between £5 and £30 depending on your bargain hunting powers.

If you see anyone out running in them, they're either an idiot or a genius (probably not inbetween) 

In reply to montyjohn and Inhambane:

Thanks for the link, that's a useful site. I'd missed the revevo link further up, seems like a great idea.

I've now ordered myself a pair of Tracker Decon Low FG2's from the revevo site, looking forward to trying them out.

In reply to MikeR:

I had been barefoot running and hiking for a while before I started using minimalist shoes in day to day life, so the only transition was getting used to the improved comfort.

In terms of model, I've never found one that's uncomfortable - I wear cheap shoes off Amazon most of the time, and have a couple of fancier branded pairs for when the occasion demands I look smartish.

I'd say just buy whatever you think suits you style and price wise.

In reply to montyjohn: they didn't work for me and i dont know anyone who used them.  If you're going to try commit upfront to a year of building up.

Chuck have nothing going for them .  Cheap, rubbish upper, not great sole. For fashion only

In reply to montyjohn:

A bit of a thread hijack, but I really want shoes which are the shape of barefoot shoes, but with a more normal sole unit!!

Barefoot shoes are roughly the right shape for my feet (but often not wide enough!! Can't get my feet into the Vivo ones), but I don't want them quite so thin on the sole. I just want something wide enough that my toes aren't squished. 

I used to have  a pair of Altras which were reasonably comfortable, but then I got a new pair and they were too narrow too. I think they must have changed the last. 

In reply to montyjohn:

Ok, so I'm back to cushioned shoes after going down that road. It didn't work out for me.

Just be very careful. It's more about your running technique than the shoes. I have chronic injuries from forefoot striking.

Midfoot striking without over-striding is key, beyond that it takes a whole book to explain further! Forefoot and heel striking are both problematic and high drop cushioned shoes tend to force the latter whilst going barefoot tempts people towards the former.

I can highly recommend a couple of books which might help:

Shane Benzie - The Lost Art of Running

Keith Bateman and Heidi Jones - Older Yet Faster

I've met Shane and had some video analysis done...what an eye opener! Anyway, good luck and take it slow

In reply to mountainbagger:

I've got a gate analysis booked for next weekend. It's a 1 hour session so hopefully fairly thorough. Planning on taking a few pairs of shoes so they can tell me what is currently influencing my biomechanics in the most positive way (if they can do this).

In reply to girlymonkey:

Is it the toe box of the mid foot you're struggling with? I believe the Olympus has the widest toebox and the Torin has the widest midfoot, but this may be way out of date. I assume you're also selecting the wide fit.

I would just email them, be specific about where you struggle and see what they recommend. 

In reply to girlymonkey:

My daughter didn't get on with Vivos, too narrow sole too thin, I bought her a pair of Belenka boots and she loves them, so much she now has multiple pairs and styles from them.  They are a Czech brand but available in the  UK from Happylittlesoles.co.uk.  They also stock Bohempia who make canvas sneakers that look like Converse Allstars but with a correctly shaped toe box, my daughter also has a  pair of those.

In reply to montyjohn:

Barefoot shoes aren't really any more expensive than quality shoes from big name brands. My daughters Belenka boots cost less than a pair Dr Martens.

Its important to take it slowly, I learnt to run about 4 years ago after switching to barefoot shoes over 10 years ago giving my feet  plenty of time to build up the necessary strength and resilience. When its warm enough ( above 5degC) I prefer to run in "barefoot" sandals for an even more grounded feeling. I've never had any injuries, despite not starting running until my 40s.

Barefoot shoes will absolutely prevent you from rolling your ankle, due to increased proprioception and the fact that when the sole of your foot is only a few mm off the ground it has nowhere to fall, most sprains are caused by you rolling off the sole of your shoe.  Neither my wife nor I have sprained an ankle since we started wearing them over 10 years ago.

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

Thanks, I will look into those

In reply to montyjohn:

I don't remember which models I tried, it was quite a while ago. But I think it was likely the same model I bought the second time, I usually do once I find something I like