UKC

So some scroat has deliberately felled the iconic tree on Hadrians Wall.

Words fail

It's reported in local news sites, but I'm not going to inflict the Reach pop up hell on you by linking

What possible motivation could there be?

From the photos in many news articles, it’s been felled without any de-limbing and dropped landing partly on the Roman wall so very unlikely to be a professional job.

Sheer malice?  

So depressing

No professional would take on that job. This is just vandalism done by someone with some fairly serious issues.

It looks pretty well done in terms of skill. Vandalism but done by someone who knows what they are doing cutting big trees.

I did wonder if it was storm damage - given the timing - needing urgent remedial action for public safety, but one look at the photos blew idea out of the water.

whatever the motivations, some people’s selfishness is hard to comprehend. 

My only thought would be a disgruntled farmers because of parking problems, has it become an Instagram or similar hotspot? 

Is it some internet/social media thing?  We're getting a lot of reports this year of people going to islands in the Lake District and vandalising trees, including use of chain saws.  Presumably the same people who abandon all of their camping equipment on the islands.

Who are these bastards who are stealing our oxygen?

Devastated!!

I've climbed at Crag Lough for over 50 years, can't believe someone could be such a C@nt to go and chop this!!!

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/sycamore-gap-tree-nort...

Its been popular for a long time for photos. At least since Robin Hood Prince of Thieves spotlighted it.

I suspect the person who did it is more stupid that we can possibly imagine, given they've clearly timed it to coincide with a storm (that wasn't as bad as forecast?) -- as if a naturally felled tree has such a clean cut! 

Very sad! What a pointless act of vandalism 

Upsetting that such an iconic and stunning feature has been destroyed before its time, for no obvious reason.

I reckon it should be replaced with a large-growing native tree, though, if possible. Oak gap? Pine gap?

Yeah, but the internet has escalated many places, like the fairy pools etc..

Awful to hear this. I used to lead walking groups regularly along the Wall and this tree was known all over the world since the famous film. Anyone familiar with the location will know that there is a small, circular walled stone break close by, a little further out from the Roman wall. This was supposed to protect a 'replacement' sycamore for when the iconic one went. The poor puny thing looked pretty unhappy last time I was there a few years ago and would have required decades to get anywhere near the size of big brother. AFIK the original tree was impinging on the Wall itself, undermining it, and was eventually going to be removed. When, I don't know. Is it a hit job by a rogue archaeology nut?

Beat me to the thread. I've been reading some Twitterers and there are some locals who are genuinely heartbroken. (There's one odd twitterer who is trolling and reveling in others' distress too, which is very odd).

I live nowhere near it and have only ever seen it on the tellybox, including of course the daft but completely watchable film which made it famous, and I feel a real sadness and sense of loss.

Sycamore are quick growers but 150 years is a long time.

Given its remote location, will there be any method of tracking or getting clues as to who is the lamentable lumberjack?

Edit: What will they call the place now, just 'Gap'?

That had crossed my mind.

BTW, you were beaten to it by three minutes:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/sycamore_gap_tree-764307

Whilst a popular theory on the internet, the land is owned by the National Trust who are famously not averse to tourism so that seems unlikely.

Pure malice then.

Any arborists/horticulturalists in the house? I have a genuine, if fanciful question.

Could someone, who could act quickly, not treat this as the country's biggest graft project, in the same way that you can graft another branch to a root stock.

You can get large grabbers which are used to fell trees, cant they be used in reverse to hold it in place whilst it is fixed to allow the stump and trunk to fuse. I know time of year is against it though.

Short answer is almost certainly no, although it should coppice back, that would be a very different tree

I wonder if it is some sort of a poke at the NT. They are going through the now annual tussle with Tufton Street and Restore Trust have been stirring up bad feeling in the name of the war on Woke

It's just over three quarters of a mile on foot from the Steel Rigg car park: https://tinyurl.com/mvcxb52k following IIRC a clear and reasonably well made path.  If people have been parking obstructively elsewhere to visit it e.g. around Peel Cottage, or maybe on the main road here: https://tinyurl.com/bdzxe9a4 (which has a good view of the gap, but it's a pathless hike across some boggy fields to reach it, and parking there would quite likely obstruct access to the field gate) then they're pretty ignorant IMO.

Oh, hang on: the car park is pay and display.  So ignorance or tight-fistedness.  Or both.  Quite possibly coupled, as you suggest, with Insta-driven sheep-like behaviour.

Than goodness it was there when I walked the wall in June 

From the BBC article:

Northumberland National Park Authority said it "had reason to believe" the "iconic North East landmark" had been "deliberately felled".

Unless someone just happened to be walking along the wall, in the dead of night, carrying a running chainsaw, and they tripped and fell against the tree for an extended period, I think it's a pretty safe bet it was "deliberately felled"!

Time to start fencing areas of to allowabitbofplanting and lots of natural regeneration. Replace the one tree with ten thousand.

It seems that absolutely nothing is sacred. It's one of those things that makes your spirit sag.  Only one thing is cheering: the almost universal sadness and outrage at this spoiling of beauty.  

Indeed, and it looks like quite the diameter so not a standard, small saw, right.

That is one beautiful photo, thanks. And it shows what a tree it was 

Heartbreaking.

We were there last July on a weekday before the school holiday, the size of the car park is probably inadequate for the number of visits that the instagram fuelled numbers that could be expected just one week later.

Add on to that the fact that the ticket machines were were really hit and miss when it camme to buying a ticket abd you have the perfect  recipe for chaotic parking

FWIW I thought that it was a beautiful tree but no more so than hundreds of other less notorious trees that we saw during our trip. For me the wall was a far greater attraction than the tree.

I live 20mins from Sycamore Gap and I'm absolutely devastated! I've been taking my children there since before they even could walk.

In terms of motivation I can think of 4 - two of which I'd rule out right away, one would have confirmed soon if true, and other which I believe it is.

1) lone madperson not doing it for attention

2) line madperson doing it for attention

3) some sort land/access/use disupute

4) politically-motivated 'attack' on one of the National Trust's Crown Jewels (at least up here) in the context of all the 'anti-woke' heat they've been getting in the last few years; the 'Restore NT' group trying to take over the council, fume about renaming things, bans on foxhunting etc.

This was not some opportunist event - it was PISSING down here last night - someone has walked probably 20-30mins in that to get to to the spot (assuming they didn't park right opposite on the road), carrying a full-on chainsaw.

The wind was mad last night too, so I'd suggest this has been planned a while and they've been waiting for a night when the sound of the felling would be masked (it carries a long way on a still night in that area).

What I'm getting at is that there had to be a seriously strong motive to do this very specific thing.

Depressingly, I suspect we'll never find out.

Those Instagram fuelled numbers definitely didn't include you, though.

My rational was the average vandal wouid be too lazy to carry a chainsaw that far. 

Or, tangent, bloke proposed to women there, married, divorced, bitter, chops try down to hurt her? 

If someone is angry enough to be that motivated, and pig headed enough to do this, they’re going to have a really hard time keeping quiet about it.

There’s some great photos on the Twice Brewed Inn’s Facebook page of the aurora borealis seen through the gap and almost engulfing the tree.  A random aside but they’ve been building a really strong reputation for stargazing events as some staff moved on from another venue in the general area and I’d been looking forwards to taking the little ones for a day out to climb the mod at Crag Lough, see the tree and visit the Inn.  

5: I did wonder if it might be storm damage rendering the tree unsafe, then felled after a quick inspection by arborist and approval from Historic England, but HE would never ever approve felling something like that in the direction of the wall. 

I suspect we might, and I also suspect that whoever did it will be deep in the chocolate logs.

What a depressing story. My bet goes on some sort of local grievance but I'd hedge it with a smaller one on a crank with ideas about how the wall should be presented.

jk

For such a felling, it would have been a pro contractor, who would have cut the branches off first, and removed the debris properly, and wouldnt have done it overnight in some pretty horrible weather. This was

The BBC is now reporting that a 16yr old boy has been arrested in connection with this!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-66952980

That was fast. Probably thought they had to get him off the streets before some irate locals strung him up.

This story just gets more bonkers. How's a 16yo even getting out there in the dark, in the rain.. with a chainsaw?!

I was fuelled by secondary school history lessons back in the days of the ZX81

And as they're under 18 they will not be named so some scrote will get no further comeuppance than a youth court for criminal damage and a slap on the wrist. 

They should be getting a life-sentence of community service. 

Won't be named officially, but I bet it'll leak out over soshul meeja!

I agree in the main but as someone who used to be/still dabbles as an arborist... definitely not necessary to climb it and remove branches when there is so much space to fell. Just not directly on to the wall as this little prick has done.

If it was him, put him to work paying his debt by helping to restore native woodlands.  He can then cut down sycamores in a beneficial way.

Make him walk the Pennine Way in shit weather? 

And back!  He can clean up some giant hogweed too.

Bonsai Gap

Does anyone really think some 16 y/o scrote really did this on his own? A 20 - 25 min walk with a larger than average chainsaw in that weather; as someone said upthread, whilst storm Agnes wasn't as severe as forecast, it was pretty wet and windy up here. If, and its a big if, he even used the chainsaw, he was given a lift up there and was acting with others, or "under guidance" of other(s).

It looks like a neat job. I doubt at 16 he'd had that kind of training- he's just about old enough to do it under supervision, but I reckon it was an older / more experienced person who actually did the deed.

Reckon there's more to come

I reckon he was put up to it by an elder. 

He should be given the birch.

Yew can’t be serious ?!

I suppose he’d be taking drugs, smoking ash n all sorts. 

Tell you what, when the locals find out it was him he won’t be very poplar. 

Carrying the chain saw he used in his hands.

Maybe it was the guy from Evil Dead and he already had the chainsaw handy. 

Has anyone walked it in good weather? 

This is going to turn out to be some kind of inane tik tok challenge, isn't it?

It seems a tad unlikely. I would assume he was the one stupid enough to talk about it and the cops are currently politely suggesting he names the others.

I was really lucky in 1981. Set off on the day of the Royal wedding and had one day of rain going from Tan Hill to Middleton. Got sunburn going over Black Hill.

 “He can clean up some giant hogweed too.” - with bare hands… 😉

These puns must stop, I feel like I'm about to oak

+1 for a Pennine Way in good weather. 

No us. I still have my Wainwright guide with comments on weather written in. Comments like Rain you bl**dy…

So sad to hear this today. 

Yes!  Did it 1-18 September in mostly hot weather with a couple of wet days towards the end.  Plus 1976 of course.

That's a great photo, Dan. Virtually all of the 'iconic' shots are taken from the other side. I suspect you'd have to be a climber to visualise this aspect. It's a shame that most (all?) of us won't ever see this again.

Great shot, Dan

I'm concerned that an alleged moron idiotic enough to cut this tree down also has access to a chainsaw.

Looking at photos of the cut I’d suggest whoever did it knew what they were doing ie not a moron

You can know what you're doing and still be a moron. 

Don’t get you there - you can still be clever but do stupid things. 

To the thread: it’s interesting how bothered we are about this - it’s just a 300 year old tree, that cliff is 300 million years old.  It’d probably blow down (or be sawn down) in a matter of decades.  Just shows how us humans have such connections to nature and aesthetics. Which is a good thing. But what that lad has done is insignificant really. It’s only significant because of the value us humans put on aesthetics etc. 

What is life without aesthetics, Bottom Clinger? We are not here merely to 'exist.'

Definition of moron - “a stupid person”

ie not clever

I think there's just something so depressing, that we all connect with, about utterly needless destruction of nature like that.

In the same way that we tend to get more upset about the one girl who fell down the well, than the million children who died of malaria; and in this case have a more visceral reaction to one tree being cut down in a beauty spot, than the acres of the Amazon destroyed daily to grow palm oil etc. We care more and can generate more outrage about the footballer who kicked their dog, than the 9 million pigs gassed to death in the UK each year for our eating pleasure..... Our empathy and outrage sensors are not rational or tuned to respond proportionately. I guess that's a bug, not a feature, due to the small communities with very limited knowledge that our species evolved in. We can't comprehend global-scale suffering and destruction, but we can empathise very strongly with individuals. 

Sorry, that was a bit of a brain fart. I can recognise in myself a little bit of my heart dying when I see news of this sort of thing. One tree being felled in a beautiful place. It's somehow so offensive to the sensibilities of any civilised person. Some people just want to watch the world burn.

Which had been considered and so they had planted a "replacement" looking towards that time. Just it was expected to be in a few decades.

I like Macfarlane’s idea, plant a Sycamore Gap forest to replace it…

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/sep/29/sycamore-gap-tree-attac...

There’s a new wood near Willington that got vandalised 4 times around 2010.  In one of the instances, 75% of the trees planted by the community were damaged or destroyed. 

Doing it for the lolz. There have always been people of that sort, and will always be such people. 

I hope we do get some sort of explanation about this tree, and whether the motivation runs any deeper than an idiotic tiktok craze or just doing it for the lolz etc. 

To play devils advocate. Yes, it was a very nice cut, good hinge, all lined up nicely. But it's not a particularly hard thing to do. There seems to be marking paint around the stump. That makes it easier still. To me it's not impossible that this was indeed done by a 16 year old. Son of a forester, arborist, whatever. 

And re the saw size. It's not a particularly big stem. And even a large chainsaw in a backpack weighs less than my sport climbing pack and 80m.

But yes, I agree... in all likelihood there's more to it.

In addition to what ChrisBrooke said in his great post there, I think there's something particular about big trees that we can relate to - they're individuals of a sort, and live significantly longer than us but not quite so long we can't grasp it, they're a bit like wise elders (pun intended) that have "seen" and lived through so much happening, we can almost relate to them (well, probably not really - but it feels that way).

Also, I can't resist a little pedantry - the rocks that cliff are made from may be 300 million years old; the cliff won't be anything like that, it's probably "just" a few thousand years old, from the last glaciation there. Lots of things we imagine to be ageless or permanent are not (and everything passes, and all that).

Not since the Indecent/Body Machine tree felling has there been such UKC condemnation..

There is indeed something about big trees. Lots of nature stuff makes me go ‘wow’. On my morning shuffle, I heard a few pink footed geese, couple small skeins, and then way behind them a skein of over 200+ !!  My sister in law studies ‘values’, and I was analysed as having a main value of ‘the awe and wonder of nature.’ No surprise really, and I guess this value would be strong amongst UKCers, less strong in the wider community though?

FWIW, my money is on a ‘lovers fall-out’.

Ed: I really should’ve known better about the geology. 

It's interesting to me that people are more annoyed about this very small and specific piece of nature destruction than they are about the bonfire of UK environmental protection that's been going on. Concerned about new oil licenses? Nah, but a kid chopped down a single, albeit aesthetically pleasing, tree.

Wasn't The Lemming asking about cutting down trees just a couple of weeks ago... coincidence 

The senselessness, finality and loss produce a particular emotional response that the other somewhat more abstract stories/issues just don't. It's a feature, not a bug.

The tree shared headlines all day with the poor girl senselessly cut down in Croydon. For me as an outsider to both stories they trigger similar emotions for similar reasons thought the latter does touch a particular nerve.

jk

What a load of bollocks, there has been plenty of discussion on here and elsewhere about the big picture environmental stuff. Outrage is limitless and it's possible to be annoyed by both the big stuff and the little stuff.

The rumour I saw was 'disgruntled former employee'

The Sycamore Gap Tree was an employer? I’m bloody impressed with that.

What a strange post, how do you work that out?

I haven't seen anything in this thread that could be inturpreted that way. 

reminds me of this:

https://longnow.org/ideas/humans-and-trees-in-long-term-partnership/

This is a really interesting comment and chimes coincidentally with a conversation I was having with a friend not 90 minutes ago. He was talking about a book he was reading (I cant remember the title), loosely about philosophy, of which one of the central points was about one's mental health in relation to incidents/issues that you can influence and ones you cant i.e. only worry about the things one can actually change and try not to get bent out of shape about the things you can't.

For instance; to my shame, I get very annoyed about seeing people litter, I get frustrated with people who dont indicate at roundabouts, I get annoyed at people laying plastic grass and covering their gardens in concrete. As my more chilled pal rightly points out, I cant change these things and getting frustrated only makes me suffer and only increases my blood pressure.

All I can do is ensure that I dont litter, pick up litter near me and ensure my kids dont do it. I can make sure that I drive considerately and use my own space as the most nature friendly it can be. I do all of this.

The big environmental challenges are so beyond the capability of the average person to influence and our leaders seem so determined to ignore the obvious slow-mo train crash. Perhaps this is why it almost too big a thing to think about and therefore in some way worry about.

I might be making the wrong point but to me it seems that a treasured and memory evoking tree, isolated, loved, much visited and so public would obviously be beyond attack. That this small piece of nature is protected and emblematic of something we could 'own' and which has been so senselessly killed perhaps triggers something in us because the bigger challenges seem so detached.

Makes the heart swell with patriotic pride, doesn't it? Lets see Johnny Foreignyouth managing something like this

Has anyone been to lay flowers on the site yet? The whole thing makes me very sad but I would find some solace in that irony. 

Yes. Saw a photo somewhere...Instagram maybe?

Found it....although maybe just left by the journo for the photo opp

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/gallery/devastating-sycamo...

In reply:

I imagine there'll be a round the clock guard at the [not so] Lonely Tree at Llanberis

As long as they are not sycamores.   This tree's value was in the aesthetics of the location rather than the invasive weed thing.  

(I have sycamores, too many of them, but they are almost indestructible.)

--

Lonely tree, Llanberis:  Reminds me of the Arbre de Tenere, Niger. Only tree for tens if not more km and somebody drove a truck into it.

That's privet enterprise for you

I've been waiting for this to happen for a while, to at least one of the 'lone' trees that have become popular with landscape photographers and instagramers. Wouldn't suprise me if it happens to others.

Local farm boy perhaps? I know the type, reckon they own the land.

I see the conspiracy theories are already flying.

Ironically, after the current wave of disease, sycamore is quite a popular tree for ash replacement in conservation circles!!!

Do you see what you did there...?

Well yeah, that part of this discussion was kinda freaky. My son who's the definition of a nerd got his first chainsaw at 14 to knock down 2ft trees and the kids on the farm drive kinda big tractors into the forest and come back with trees before they are 16.

Hmm.

Where was your son on the night of Wednesday 27th September, 2023, Jim?

You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.

Exactly my thoughts. An acquaintance in NE England has already expressed his Sherlock Holmes level analysis online: "It'll be some gyppo." 

I’m from the area, and am beyond devastated at this news.

Saw the Robin Hood film as a kid at the cinema, and one day looking out the window of the car on the way to my grandparents recognised it from the film and couldn’t believe my eyes.  A big Hollywood film came to our area?! Wow.

Our little area where nothing ever happens and which was never on telly or films was in the biggest film of the time!  It made me feel like the rest of the world knew we existed, which growing up in a small town in that area was important. It was something. 

Became obsessed with seeing it, always asked my mum if we could go via that road instead of the other way literally just so I could look out the window and see it as we passed.  And it always looked beautiful, no matter the season or the weather. It was a symbol of the area, something that was beautiful, and was ours. 

And now it’s gone. Forever. And nobody can put it back. 

I’m devastated that some idiot has destroyed something that meant so much to me, and so many others. 

That’s the word on the street in Haltwhistle at the moment.

in a 4wd pickup driven by another disgruntled person. Allegedly.

What's your association with Haltwhistle? And what exactly is the 'word on the street' there?

i’m typing this while at the in-laws in Haltwhistle….

Ah right. Do they have a particular 'disgruntled former employee' in mind? Or is this merely their speculation?

My two favourite local crags, Scugdale and Crag Lough. 300 years and no one thought to harm this tree. Young people seem to be developing collective psychosis. Or maybe that's what all 40 year olds think

A second person, a 60 Yr old man has been arrested. Not surprised

Fascinating.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/plankey-mill-northumbe...

This is an unnecessary comment, and comes across as speculation of who might be involved. Persons named in the linked report.

Best removed, I think. 

That person has named themselves in this slightly bizarre article posted an hour or so ago.. 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24211890/walter-renwick-sycamore-gap-tree-van...

Someone needs to tell The Sun it’s too soon to start punning.

Apparently some people have been trying to cut off branches as souvenirs: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/29/public-urged-not-to-take-br...

I misread that as 'it's too soon to start pruning'...

Ebay's going to go in meltdown in the next few weeks  ...

Well, he did tell them they were 'barking up the wrong tree'

I reckon the trunk could be processed into half a million or so laser cut pendants of the tree.  Sold at £25 a pop with certificates of authenticity it could make perhaps £6-£10m net for the National trust.  

Tacky?  Subjectively yes but that cash could go to creating a broad-leafed forest to join the wall to the Kielder plantation.  I’d put a week of my annual leave in to volunteering to plant trees, as would many others I’m sure.   Might be more practicable to forest to the south on trust owned land.

Finding some positive and constructive use for the wood would certainly seem like a very good idea. 

I've seen suggestions it could be used to build the frame of a nice big wicker man to (temporarily) house the miscreants.

Or stocks?

Or shove the trunk up their arse(s)?

Not entirely bizarre if you're in danger of being lynched based on rumours circulating on social media.

The saddest thing about this lone tree is that it was solitary, whereas it ought to be part of a forest. The rest felled no doubt by humans for agriculture, firewood, shops etc.

If it was part of a forest it wouldn't have been anywhere near as impressive as it was as a single specimen. Also, Sycamores aren't native trees, so it's only there through human intervention in the first place. I understand your point though and would personally prefer to see the area still covered in native, ancient woodland. 

This tree was born long, long after the forest that’d have been here pre-human intervention was felled. It was only a couple of hundred years old. There won’t have been forest there even when Hadrian built his wall, so to think it a last memory of a bye gone time is a lot of a stretch. Then we remember as a sycamore it’s not even a native species, rather introduced sometime around 15-1600, and if we were serious about ecological restoration then it’d have been for the chop anyway.

This tree has told us a lot about the typical Brit’s idea of what nature, and the countryside actually is. And it’s so far removed from reality it’s quite sad. 

Nothing wrong with with so called non native trees. The fact remains that there are no other trees there because it suits the aims of the landowners, and probably some sheep.

You'd have to go back millennia to find anything like that. The Romans arrived to find an area already quite well populated by British farmers. Dozens of them have been found by aerial archaeology even very close to the Wall. Ironically, you can see the area is more densely forested now than prehistoric times if you stand at the Wall and look north. You will see the massed ranks of conifers in their uncountable millions.

Incorrect. Historical records show it was where Robin Hood hid from Roman Legionnaires.

There might not be anything wrong with them per se, but there’s not much right either when native trees can better serve dependent invertebrates etc. So a sycamore might not harm anything, but neither does it provide as much as other species might so the net effect is/can be a negative. 

I'd very much doubt there is much difference in invertebrate support due to it being a non-native, since it's an introduction from central & southern Europe; really not that different in terms of ecology.

Different species support different numbers of other species, native or not; is it that different to the native acer campestre (field maple)?

There are some publications showing that Sycamore hosts less spp of insects than Oak, can't remember how it compares to other trees such as the other Maples. But it is native right up to the north coast of France where it occurs in vegetation very like those found in southern England and if the Channel hadn't formed after the last Ice Age it would very likely be native - it was just a bit too slow in spreading back northwards. 

Pretty sure oak is long known for being the most supportive tree. Just the native oaks, of course, none of those showy foreigners, coming over here, putting down roots...

that would be before Blake's Seven landed at Bamburgh Castle?

It'll be that pop music they're all listening to on those fangled transistor radios. 

But very high insect biomass. Few species but many more animals. Swings and roundabouts, innit?

I respectfully disagree with you on that point. Not many people would really miss half a dozen ancient native oaks that were hidden in a wood made up of thousands of similar trees if they were felled for no reason. And the damage to the ecosystem would be fairly small and insignificant. But the loss of just one iconic and highly visible and aesthetically pleasing tree can be a really big deal.

Negative compared to what? We aren't living in an undisturbed post-glacial environment. Moreover the climate is changing rapidly so "native" trees soon won't be the best adapted to current conditions. The idea we go around cutting down sycamores (and beech and myriad other species?) to try and get back to a an unrecoverable past is nuts.

Beech is native, for a start. 

Has this not been a matter of disagreement? I've heard it said that beeches were introduced to Scotland and the Roman Wall is of course the right, true border...

Ask the scientists.. https://www.stir.ac.uk/news/2017/07/beech-trees-native-to-scotland-after-al...

Possibly. Hardly the point.

Besides which, it already sort of happens. Perhaps not in a joined up concerted effort of eradication, but in any woodland management, non-native species will always be the first to go in any maintenance work. As a local example in the valleys above Hebden Bridge which are largely beech and oak woodlands, errant sycamores are being felled to create dams in the cloughs to ‘slow the flow’ for flood prevention and allow for native species to flourish in the clearings. 

..and if you’re given up on striving to maintain (as best as possible in our completely engineered environments) a naturally evolved ecosystem then where do you draw the line? Himalayan balsam has made itself quite at home… should we stop efforts to remove it due to a changing climate and native species soon not being the best adapted? That’s a mighty poor outlook on its own, I must say, and that’s before you get to the knock on effect on birds, mammals and invertebrates. 

Your Google-fu is strong.

I must admit it was news to me  

Interesting, United Utilities and probably more importantly Cumbria Woodlands don't regard them as native to Thirlmere, hence the number that have been and continue to be felled. 

Sorry but that's cobblers. Most commercial species are non-native and most woods are at least partially commercial.

Himalayan balsam is nothing to with climate, it's just invasive. Practically all land in the UK is and needs to be managed and there is no good reason I know  of to have HB dominate. So no we should not ignore it.

Maybe they should be got rid off with a Beeching Axe?

Cobblers. And obviously commercial plantations are a different matter entirely from what might be considered part of the natural ecosystem. Walk around any Peak plantation and they’re closer to an industrial landscape than they are a natural one. 

I’d like to see your evidence for your claim that most woods are commercial, all the same.

You were talking about "woodland management," (your words), not natural ecosystems (of which there probably none anyway)

Yes. Your point?

Sure. 

https://www.forestresearch.gov.uk/tools-and-resources/statistics/statistics...

Antonine?

Yes, I was talking about woodland management, in the overall discussion of natural ecosystems. That doesn’t equate to commercialism. As we have agreed, all our environments are managed. Even the most natural ones - mostly to keep them the most natural. 

That’s an excellent link and handily proves my point, thank you. 3.25m ha of woodland, of which 1.44m ha is certified. 44% of total coverage. That’s not ‘most’ by a long, long way. Unless I’ve missed something? It’s not even a given that a crop is taken from 100% of those certified woodlands. It is possible to be certified and not commercial - I know this, as I lived on a small holding that was so. Given the size of plantations, especially north of the border, it’s not really fair to lump those in with the countless small privately owned and not commercially managed (but still managed) woodlands that exist and provide what is likely to be most biodiversity.

Certified doesn't mean commercial or not. You are misunderstanding.  It's about management practice (see below).  The link shows a little under half woodland is coniferous (pretty much all this is commercial to some degree) and a good proportion of deciduous will be too.. And commercial doesn't necessarily mean grown for a crop as such. Some is carbon offset. 

https://ukwas.org.uk/getting-certified/#:~:text=By%20getting%20their%20wood....

This is what I wanted proof of, if you’d be so kind? 

..and this will eventually be cropped and sold as a building material, locking away the carbon for decades to follow.

Quite a few Northumbrians and Cumbrians might take issue with this

Looks like they are the second arrest:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-arrested-over-sycamore-gap-310756...

I can’t make head nor tales of the “f***** bear grylls” quote in the article.

From the context I think what she means by "living like f****** Bear Grylls" is dressing for the outdoors while staying in a five-star hotel.

Plankey Mill is a wonderful spot but a bit to rural for Bear; in isolation of more recent - and yet to be understood - events, it’s always difficult when another multi generational farming tenant is evicted by absentee landlords.  The picnic field there was much loved and used by many seeking a break from the city.  Big change in tone from the surrounding National Trust land.

Will be keeping an eye on what becomes of the property now.  The potential for a COI with an alleged complainant against the tenant is significant.

Yes, that is a cracker of a piccy Dan. My main memory of climbing here is of the very frictionless quality of the rock after a shower,  worse than Chudleigh. I consequently failed to register this iconic landmark, but it was perhaps 40+ years ago, and so not as renowned as it is today.

On a related theme, if the felling of one lonely tree causes this much outrage what would be the response to felling the Amazon Rain-forest!

Do you really need to ask? Thousands of buildings were bombed in the London blitz. If St. Paul's Cathedral had been levelled then then the emotional effect would have been orders of magnitude greater. This was far more than just 'one lonely tree' to many people. I have a German friend who walked past it a couple of weeks ago doing the Hadrian's High Way and she is completely dumbfounded.

Theodosian.

I have knowledge of at least one pig-headed destructive action against wildlife which ended up being a case of "everyone round here knows who did it, but no-one's telling".  A bit like the Llyn Brenig osprey nest incident (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56955084) for which AFAIK no-one has ever been prosecuted.

One can imagine not wanting to incur the wrath of someone crazy enough to do something like that - especially knowing that they have a chainsaw...

A chainsaw is a poor choice of weapon, you could never sneak up on anyone with a running chainsaw

Those leccy ones are perfect for the job..  

Tell that to the demons in Doom

They are lovely, no faffing around with fuel and choke, just squeeze the trigger and off you go. I bought one for hedgelaying. Quiet and clean.

But no good in the rain!!

In a similar vein of mindless vandalism I've just heard the boots, coats and bench in the quarry hut in Dinorwic have been burnt, people who have visited this particular place  know that these items have remained  relativity undisturbed through countless visits and even 90’s raves and were a haunting reminder of the the men who worked that hard job.

Greedy!

I don't think I'm acquainted with the demons in doom, are they related to Bedfordshire demons

You use a chainsaw for hedgelaying, the youth of today have no stamina

Groovy.

Words fail me.

[I assumed this was a recent event, but google found this UKH article that suggests otherwise]

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukh/welsh_slate_to_be_nominated_for_wo...

The general pilfering and vandalism has been a feature, however the place I'm speaking of was seen as untouchable, a solitary window into the past and a favourite with photographers.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/scouserdaz/4817831042/

Yes, that was the one I was thinking of. I have photos somewhere, too... [checks: yes, almost identical, taken 19/10/2005]

Is the fire recent, then?

This weekend 😕

Beat me to it….chainsaw melee mode!

The caban stuff was burned and the graffiti wall trashed at least a decade ago. Mindless. 

Jk

You just need good stamina to chase them down - suggest you watch Texas Chainsaw Massacre - a classic of its time.

I'm not feeling tempted.

If we start judging our risk of getting killed by a chainsaw wielding maniac by a tacky film it is only be a matter of time before others start comparing politics to sci-fi, Harry Potter or some other work of fiction and before you know it we are stuck in today's total sh1t3sh0w

Ah, so you've been following the tories Manchester conference.

Rishi's been looking for a magic wand to make his problems go away. I'm wondering if its a sycamore wand. It has certainly been a handy distraction for the last week or so.

Johnson spent a lot of time playing with his wand, too...

Just a suggestion for a new Tory party logo.

https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd1e0...

Cutting the tree down was an act of wanton vandalism but perhaps a fitting metaphor for what the Tories have done to this country.