UKC

Someone I was climbing with recently noticed that I had tied into the rope using a bowline with a triple fishermans stopper.

He commented on this and said something along the lines of "don't you think that a bit of a dangerous knot to tie-in with? I'd be happier if you used a figure of 8".

So I didn't argue, the other guy was a more experienced climber than me so for his piece of mind more than anything, I re-tied-in with a fig8.

Is that really true though, about a bowline being unsafe to tie-in with?

I've always used it for tying in, when I was a beginner I was told either were good tie in knots, I prefer a bowline as it's quicker to tie and easier to undo after it been loaded, so that's what I've used ever since.

Tom

In reply to Anonymous:

I use a double bowline and whatever is left tie a fishermans, 3,4 stopper.

For me it is ideal because i'm heavy and it is a bitch to undo an 8 after it has been fallen on a couple of times.

The bowline is fine, I tie it throught the waist band and leg loop with no slack so the loop of the bowline doesn't ride over the stopper

In reply to tubengen: Never really had a problem with fig. 8s, I weigh 13+ stone, and just break the back of the knot, always opens fine.

Not overly keane on bowlines, they just dont look as sturdy, and I also think a figure of 8 screams at you when its wrong.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

great argument ! bowlines are fine if done as stated above with a stoper at the knot. i know it's annoying when people say this but try a search because there have been some big debates on this in the past

In reply to Bored: I guess Im just a creature of habbit, I dont see what a bow line offers me, apart fromease of undoing, where Ive never hada problem with them, I do use them in sailing, but just prefer f. 8's.

In reply to Anonymous:

There is nothing inherently wrong with the strength of a bowline. The three things that are sometimes levelled against it are:

- Harder for a beginner to learn
- More prone to upsetting if the stopper is not snug to the main knot
- Harder to visually inspect

On the plus side, it is more compact and, with practice, can be tied one handed in emergency.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

Try it when you're 16 stone, mate. Bowline for me, every time!


Weak argument.

In reply to Anonymous:
As others have said, Bowline is fine provided you tie a stopper which should be snug to the knot. Without a stopper it can invert and become a slip-knot..
There are three different ways to tie it, including the boy-scout rabbit round a tree way, the one handed way that others have mentioned, and by tying a slip-knot and inverting it. The latter is my favourite because it's quick and easy to tie, even if you are wearing thick mitts and personally I find it easier to position the knot and length of tail exactly how I want it. The other advantage is you can pass it through a thread or harness without having to tie half the knot first like you do with a fig. 8.
Fig 8 is fine for tying on too though.

In reply to Anonymous: Bowline every time, fig 8 used by lots of climbers when starting out cos schools use it for insurance reasons, it is a v good knott but its a bit slow and clunky to use all time and if your experienced you can tie a safe bowline everytime, both good knotts just ones slower than other.

In reply to Anonymous:

The bowline is ot a dangerous knot to tie in with if you do it properly. If you always use a stopper, and snug it right up against the main body of the knot, it should be fine. Just check that the stopper isn't working loose at every stance.

I've *forced* a cross-loaded bowline (without a stopper) to invert, but I had to work at it.

You can reduce any worries further by making two loops before you "bring the bunny up"...never been able to force a 2-loop bowline to invert.

Or, try the Edwards bowline ( http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/bowline.html )...it ought to satisfy Mr Ridgeway, as it "looks" robust, it doesn't need a stopper, yet it undos as easily as a normal bowline after loading.

An ordinary bowline can easily be tied with one hand...try that with a figure 8, in the dark.

Both knots are perfectly adequate. As long as you're aware of the need for a snugged-up stopper on a single loop bowline, you'll be fine. Most things in climbing come down to informed personal choice. There *are* a few things that have dogmatic hard and fast rules, but your choice of tie-in knot shouldn't be one of them!

In reply to Rob Naylor: Bowline"s are safe as houses as long(as with all), as you tie it correctly with stopper's. I use a fig 8 from habbit, but always use a bowline when I think theres a high chance of me taking a drop, or if I'm doggin somthin I'm workin on.

In reply to Monkeyrock:

Are we talking about a bight round the waist, or attached to a harness?

I tend to go for a figure of eight to a harness, because it is easier to inspect, and a bowline round the waist because it is easier to tie snug to the body.

I have heard that Bowlines can come undone on tape, so I use a beast I have always called a tape knot...

Y.

In reply to Anonymous:
I nearly always use a combination of two bowlines, the double loop and Yosemite.

For Yosemite see...
http://www-sop.inria.fr/agos-sophia/sis/Techniques/knots.html#yose

The loop-back (plus stopper) means that it has less chance of loosening than the standard bowline.

As strong as a figure-8 but doesn't jam as much.

In reply to Anonymous: I think being exact, a bow line reduces the strength of a rope a little more than a figure of eight. However there are probably lots of other places in a system that would be more crucial than this, so it's almost certainly not relevant. I personally use one of each when using two ropes.

In reply to karl walton:

You are absolutely right. The bowline, beautiful knot as it is, is not such a strong knot in that it does not absorb the force of a fall nearly as well as the figure-of-eight. I've actually heard it described (by Richard McHardy) as a 'cutter knot' - the bit that 'goes round the tree' being directly across the 'live' rope. The figure of eight (and many other knots) slip laterally. Of course, all this only becomes critical with very weak, small diameter ropes.

Now, the Tarbuck Knot, that was something ... absolutely brilliant, massively absorptive, but v v prone to falling apart!

In reply to Rob Naylor: which i admit, but you cannot beat that sense of security, I have it with F. of 8's, not with bowlines, simple.

I know that sounds stupid, but iev always used a Fig. of 8, never had any problems, so why change, a bit close minded, but I dont think its being too unprogressive.

and its Ridgway!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Gordon, never heard Richard say that, and he used it as long as I knew him in the 60s.

Fig 8 was brought in by centres to use on those Troll waistbelts with big screwgate onthem so the kids could just clip and unclip when being toproped. It then got accepted as the correct way to do things, after all centre tutors were gods then to the BMC and must be obeyed.

Tarbuck knot is a good knot on thin ropes, use it on guylines instead of metal sliders. Use it in emergency to rescue people as well, lower a large loop to them, they slip it over their head and waist and just slide it tight with one hand. Safe enough if a bit uncomfortable if they are hanging free, but that would not be for long in a lower.

Never heard of one coming undone if tied correctly, and the Drasdoes are reputed to have kept theirs tied for weeks on end when waist loops were in fashion. they were unsure if they could tie it correctly after being shown it. Probably apocryphal though.They are not exactly dense are they?

In reply to sutty:

Richard helped me a lot with the static line work in my Peak book. He was then training people in industrial access work, and was a superb tutor. ... yes, he had obviously changed enormously from his younger, much more dangerous days!

I don't think you're 100 per cent right re figure of 8. It just happens to be about the strongest knot there is. The figure of 9 is even stronger, in fact without equal. Apparently there's virtually no weakening of the rope at all.

The other big merit of the figure of 8 is that you can't tie it wrong without it looking a complete mess. You can tie things that look a bit like a bowline that are not immediately, obviously wrong to the casual glance.

In reply to sutty:

Realised I haven't commented re your v interesting observations re Tarbuck knot!

I exaggerated about them coming apart. The amazing thing was just how reliable they were. My brother and I used them for our first 18 months/2 years of lead climbing, all the time, with never a mishap. It was actually an easy knot to tie, and brilliantly simple to use. Absolutely great for perfecting the belay tension in the days of belaying with the waist belay and gardening gloves.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'd be interested in hearing about any cases you know of where a climbing rope's broken at the knot.

Technically, yes, the bowline weakens the rope slightly more than a figure 8, but with the amount of strength in reserve on normal half or single ropes, the difference is not really relevant.

I know which is easiest to undo; I know which is easiest to tie in the dark, with one hand; I know which is easiest to tie wearing mitts and on iced up ropes.

The variations on the "vanilla" bowline that I normally use absorb more force, too. I'll occasionally use the figure 8 but generally I don't, as I just find the bowline easier, and I don't have any trouble identifying if any of the variations I use aren't tied properly.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I think Sutty's 100% right in his comment about how the figure 8 gained such dominance. He didn't bring up the strenght of the knot at all...he was just stating how he thought it had come to replace the bowline for many people.

I've heard the same thing at one remove from friends of, eg, Rowland Edwards, who apparently says that's *exactly* why figure 8s started to be used in his early instructing days.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

That was more or less what I said.



Whenever I tie directly into the rope I still use the bowline. And as you say, there's the double bowline etc.

In reply to karl walton: One of each, what an odd habit/superstition!

In reply to Yrmenlaf: To the harness.

a bowline round the waist because it is easier to tie snug to the body.

Do you mean rope around your waist. Sorry bit confussed.

In reply to Monkeyrock:

That's how I understood it.

If you tie the rope directly around your waist it's easier to get it the correct tightness using a bowline. Especially if you tie a slip knot first and then invert it.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I have always ignored the strength of knots while climbing. there was some discussion in one old magazine about the bowline reducing the rope strength to %75 and the overhand %80 but as ropes are so strong and never having heard of a knot breaking I ignore it.
If you are hoisting big loads near the breaking strength of a rope or cable then you do have to consider it. One thing I try to avoid is larks footing as that reduces the stregth of slings to 45% of their normal strength if my memory is correct.

In reply to Iain Ridgway: alsoa bowline doesn't leave a knot in the rope !

In reply to Anonymous:

Personally, I use a fig 8, and don't have trouble undoing it, although to be fair I wouldn't fancy untying one that had been fallen on i winter if I had frozen fingers.

Half of the difficulty that people have with untying them stems, IMHO, from the very poorly tied knots that are so common. Very few fig 8's that you see actually lie smooth and flat, and so breaking them open is far more difficult than it would otherwise be.

I step through a double bowline if tying on around my waist. I know how to tie a one handed bowline just in case.

I started climbing using bowlines, but that was with hawser laid ropes. When I got a kernmantel rope it all looked far too slippery - not enough friction involved, especially with a new rope. I changed to fig 8's then, and would feel very incomfortable changing back.

In reply to Anonymous:

In Poland when I first tied in with a bowline a big crowd gathered round to inspect it. There was an intense discussion that I found difficult to follow, then they reached the verdict that it was unsafe and I had to be taught to tie in properly. Afterwards they watched me very closely when I was belaying. I have since used a fig-8.

In reply to Witkacy:

I've used a doubled-back bowline for 6 years (is this the Edwards bowline?). Never had any problems with it, and its definitely easier to undo than a figure 8 after it's been loaded.

In reply to Anonymous:

I use either a bowline or Fiog 8 depending on my mood, same way I belay left or right handed dependign on which way the wind is blowing.

Never had a problem with a bowline and I too have heard what gordon refers to - that the fig 8 is a more dynamic knot.

If an uinstopped bowline can happily tie and hold a foresail in a force 9 then I am happy to climb with it

In reply to biscuits:

I used my bowline (God knows what type – the simple one that you can tie in 2 secs blindfolded, drunk and with one hand) for many years without problems. Now I only tie it as a party trick when requested by Poles who like to laugh at my ‘English knot’. The fig-8 is way too much faff.

In reply to Anonymous:

The main reasons for the fig. of 8 I've heard are

1. Easy visual inspection.
2. If you f*ck it up it still forms a knot, unlike a bowline which forms nought. (haven't actually tried this!)
3. 5% extra strength, like it'll make a difference.

I always use a fig. 8 for leading (habit as much as anything) but if I have to thread through a lower off I tie back in with a bowline as it's less hassle.

In reply to Anonymous:

It's easier for novices to learn a fig 8, and as others have said, it's easy to inspect and if tied incorrectly it usually ends up as either a fig 9 or and overhand knot which are both safe, even if the latter is harder to untie.

The bowline is great if you know how to tie it, and it's worth practicing to get it perfect in my opinion because it's so versatile. One thing about the method I keep harping on about, where you tie a slip-knot first and then invert it, is that it requires a certain amount of practise. This is because it matters which bit of the rope you tuck in to make the loop of the slip knot. Make the loop from the "standing part" i.e. the long or live side and you get a bowline, make the loop in the short side and you get a joined-up sheetbend, which may well be safe enough if it has a decent stopper knot, but the forces are coming through the knot differently and I don't know how that affects it's strength.

In reply to Anonymous:
Is there a significance in the way the tie in loop is used? I use a fig 8 when trad climbing and bringing rope from belays back to the tie in loop, as it seems that this knot is less likely to invert when pulled from the 'wrong' side. I use the bowline when sport climbing as I'm more likely to fall, in which case it's easier to undo, and it's easier to retie at the lower off when climbing on portland staples.

I have-took a big fall and the figure of eight came undone fine once i`d lowered off.

Figures of 8 are easier to learn, easier to check, strong and i`ve not heard of one coming done in use whereas there are tales of bowlines coming untied. That may be due to them having been incorrectly tied but the simplicity of the fig 8 akes up for that.

Dave

In reply to DaveN:

It's true that fig 8s are not likely to come untied if you are using them to tie in as we have been discussing in this thread, or in any circumstance where the load comes across the length of the knot rather than accross it's width.

However; a cautionary note. The figure of 8 is not a universally safe knot and if used incorrectly can come untied alarmingly easily. You can pull the knot open by pulling the "legs" apart on one side and putting both under load. In this circumstance the knot repeatedly inverts and can roll down the rope. If it is used for joining two ends it can roll off the bottom. It's common to abseil by tying the ends together using an overhand knot. Substitute the overhand knot with a figure of eight and you have the European Death Knot; so called because people have died using it. I'm sure this will have been discussed to death on here in the past, but new people may not know this and it's important.
Lots of tests have been done, and an overhand knot can roll a bit too, but not nearly as easily as the figure of eight, and it's unlikely to roll off as long as the ends are long. A lot of people nowadays suggest two overhand knots next to each other are safest of all.

In reply to Alison Stockwell: Once a bowline man, always a bowline man...never failed me.

In reply to Tom the tall:
bowlines are for sailing

fig8 for rock climbing

No need to get the 2 confused!

In reply to all:

Assuming you know how to tie the knot properly, then both of them are good.

Anyone who tells you not to use a particular one is a control freak.

btw Alison - EDK is also used to refer to the overhand by a lot of people.

In reply to Marc C: I think your spot on there, once your happy why change?

Peace of mind and all that, we can all argue this and that, but its hard to beat the peace of mind of what we know.

In reply to uriel: so true, don know why I use bowlines at sea, yet fig. 8's on crags. just do.

In reply to Marc C:
lol!

In reply to uriel: i though they were for stringing a bow?

In reply to John Wellbelove:

Ah ha, so that's what it's called. A friend of mine (who instrcuts a lot) uses this regularly - he swears by it. How's a Tarbuck knot go?
I have a friend in Austria, a senior Alpine Guide and trainer of same. He often uses re-threaded overhand knot. He recons its perfectly safe and likes the simplicity of it and well as it's small bulk. Not sure myself, anyone else seen anyone doing this?

In reply to Jules King: I thought overhands can slip through?

I thought thats why the fig. of 8 came about, which is an overhand not just with a modification to prevent it slipping?

In reply to Jules King:

A rethreaded overhand knot(ie the live ends emerge from opposite sides of the knot) is a tape or a water knot, isn't it ? The normal, and even faster method, is to simply lay the two strands side by side and tie an overhand knot (the live ends emerge from the same side of the knot).

In reply to Carless:


Probably, but then the invasion of Iraq is called defence by a lot of people !

In reply to Carless:
>>

Yes I know; incorrectly so. There's a lot of misunderstanding about it. Tests have shown that it's the fig 8 that's the deadliest one. As long as the knot is correctly tied, tensioned and has reasonably long ends, it's rare for the overhand to slip. Not so the fig 8.

In reply to uriel:


Fig 8 is often used in sailing as a stopper knot and bowlines predate figure of eights when ropes were tied round the waist.

I blame the demise of the scout movement for the general lack of appreciation of knots now days.

In reply to GrahamD:

The latter is the one I'm talking about when I say never do this with a fig 8 because it will roll off the dead end if both live ends are under tension in opposite directions.

In reply to GrahamD:

But would you use a overhand knot rethreaded to tie into a harness? As I said this Guide thinks its OK but I'm not sure? (qualified that there needs to be a 15cm tail)

In reply to Jules King:
A rethreaded overhand knot with a decent tail and/or with a stopper knot is perfectly safe for tying into a harness. I know guides who like it too. The disadvantages of it are that it is more difficult to untie if it's been loaded, and it weakens the overall strength of the rope by more than the fig 8 and bowline, but not by enough to worry about.

In reply to Jon Greengrass:
exactly! brilliant when constantly loaded!

In reply to Anonymous:

i weigh 13st and when i fall more than 15 feet i have to cut out of the knot. i'v fallen 40 foot on a bow and it was easy to undo

the new inproved bowline with two loops and then threded back and back is even easier!!

In reply to Anonymous: I have always tied in with a bowline and never had any problems whatsoever. Always back it up with with a double overhand knot, that way it won't come loose. If someone told me otherwise I'd just point this out......climbed regularly since 1980, had a few falls over the years etc..never had any knot problems. If it aint broke don't fix it.

To all those who are concerned about the relative strengths of the bowline and fig. 8, read the following:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/safety/tech/articles/ropes17.pdf

Modern climbing ropes don't break at the knot.

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

No, the 'bow' in 'bowline' refers to the bow of a boat. the bowline was a rope from the bow of the vessel to the luff of the sail (square sail in those days) used to help tension the luff to improve windward performance. The 'bowline knot' is/was the knot used to attach said bowline to the sail.
If anyones interested 'The Ashley Book of Knots' is the bible on this subject!

Duma

In reply to Anonymous: I tie in with a bowline, I run a climbing club at my school and teach the kids to tie in with a fig 8 - it's an easier knot for them to tie (especially if you put one in the rope to start them off) and it's much easier for me to check that they've got it right.

In reply to Anonymous: Well I tie in with a bowline cos I'm an old fart (also its the best knot) but I found out last week that Neil Gresham ties in with a bowline ( I was climbing with him on a course) enough said! Theres loads of reasons why its better than the figure of eight, but we've done this thread before and I cant be bothered to read it all again.

In reply to Jules King:

I personally wouldn't tie in with an overhand knot, probably through habit. I tend to lead on a fig 8 with the tail tucked back through the knot rather than use a stopper but if I want a quick tie in for seconding, I use a bowline.

What I wasn't clear of is what people called a rethread overhand knot - is it the one with tails on the same side of the knot (used for joining abseil ropes) or on opposite sides (like a tape knot) ?

In reply to GrahamD:

A rethreaded overhand knot is the same idea as a rethreaded fig 8. You tie an overhand knot a metre or so from the end of the rope, thread the end through your harness and then follow the overhand knot back again like you do with a fig 8 so that the tail ends up parallel to the live rope. Then you can tie a stopper knot.

Although it's safe and favoured by a few guides, it's hard to untie if it's been loaded and most people prefer a fig 8 or bowline, me included.

In reply to Paul Winder: I had a feeling I had copied it from somewhere.