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Just a bit of a moan because in general I like the place, but the Ice today was so thin. Every swing was followed by a loud clank of metel on concrete. It really ruined the Ice experience for me. Yes I know sottish Ice can be thin, but this was really thin. The snow blower doesn't seem to get much above half way, and then your on to really crap stuff. I'm no expert but something must be able to be done, as the last time I went the ice was much fatter and I enjoyed, the climbing and found it useful. Today I just feel dejected as tools kept popping in really thin Ice. Didn't feel like I got much ice climbing done, more dry tooling in a cold room!! Felt like asking for my money back!
In reply to Willber:
Dry yer eyes fer chrissakes.
I'm sure JamieB will jump in shortly and plead that the Hydro board cut them off for an afternoon...........
Dry yer eyes fer chrissakes.
I'm sure JamieB will jump in shortly and plead that the Hydro board cut them off for an afternoon...........
In reply to Willber:
Sounds like ideal training for scottish winter ice...
> the Ice today was so thin. Yes I know sottish Ice can be thin, but this was really thin... and then your on to really crap stuff. Today I just feel dejected as tools kept popping in really thin Ice.
Sounds like ideal training for scottish winter ice...
In reply to Willber:
Hi Willber, sorry you had a less than enjoyable experience yesterday. I'll hold my hands up and say that the ice is not as thick as we would like, especially on the top half of the walls. The hose we have for the snow blower is too rigid to direct easily at the top of the walls and it is proving difficult to get the ice as high up as we would like.
This week we will be packing for 2 days compared to one last week. We will be hand packing the upper parts of the wall to fatten them up and we are actively trying to get a different type of hose (but, typically, the machine is American and the hose dimaeter is not standard and we need a smooth bored hose etc. etc. and things are rarely as simple as they seem.)
We reckon the snow blower is still a good idea because the lower,easier slopes are fatter than they have been for a while. We have been caught slightly on the hop beacuse we had expected to be quieter in November but are pleased to see that we are still seeing lots of climbers at the weekends. We will be trying to increase the amount of maintenance we do during the week over the next 2 months and will probably go back to night time packing from Xmas onwards. You will already have seen the beginning of our attempts to clear the ice level back to the floor and reclaim the bottom 50cm of climbing!
I could timetable people on to this 5 days a week but I'd have to put the prices up to cover the staff hours so I will keep juggling and trying to get the maximum thickness on I can without hitting your wallet too hard!
P.S. glad that 'in general you like the place' and we're always willing to listen to constructive/reasonable criticism.
Regards,
AlH
The Ice Factor
Hi Willber, sorry you had a less than enjoyable experience yesterday. I'll hold my hands up and say that the ice is not as thick as we would like, especially on the top half of the walls. The hose we have for the snow blower is too rigid to direct easily at the top of the walls and it is proving difficult to get the ice as high up as we would like.
This week we will be packing for 2 days compared to one last week. We will be hand packing the upper parts of the wall to fatten them up and we are actively trying to get a different type of hose (but, typically, the machine is American and the hose dimaeter is not standard and we need a smooth bored hose etc. etc. and things are rarely as simple as they seem.)
We reckon the snow blower is still a good idea because the lower,easier slopes are fatter than they have been for a while. We have been caught slightly on the hop beacuse we had expected to be quieter in November but are pleased to see that we are still seeing lots of climbers at the weekends. We will be trying to increase the amount of maintenance we do during the week over the next 2 months and will probably go back to night time packing from Xmas onwards. You will already have seen the beginning of our attempts to clear the ice level back to the floor and reclaim the bottom 50cm of climbing!
I could timetable people on to this 5 days a week but I'd have to put the prices up to cover the staff hours so I will keep juggling and trying to get the maximum thickness on I can without hitting your wallet too hard!
P.S. glad that 'in general you like the place' and we're always willing to listen to constructive/reasonable criticism.
Regards,
AlH
The Ice Factor
In reply to AlH:
Thanks for the honest approach, I appreciate the constraints of budget, ideals, and not so useful machines! On the whole like I said it has been a useful experience in the past, and I will be down again in the not too distant future.
What about the areas above the platform/cave none of those routes have been touched! Could you set up a two pitch approach?
> (In reply to Willber)
> Hi Willber, sorry you had a less than enjoyable experience yesterday. I'll hold my hands up and say that the ice is not as thick as we would like, especially on the top half of the walls.
> Hi Willber, sorry you had a less than enjoyable experience yesterday. I'll hold my hands up and say that the ice is not as thick as we would like, especially on the top half of the walls.
Thanks for the honest approach, I appreciate the constraints of budget, ideals, and not so useful machines! On the whole like I said it has been a useful experience in the past, and I will be down again in the not too distant future.
What about the areas above the platform/cave none of those routes have been touched! Could you set up a two pitch approach?
In reply to AlH: are you going to ofer him a free seesion as he wasn't satisfied? that what i would do.
In reply to Bruce Allmighty: I don't want a free session, I would rather my money was used along with the others to pay the staff that pack the thing. It must be a pain in the arse repacking the whole thing by hand, and I guess in times of heavy use this has to be done more often? Just venting a few thoughts thats all.
In reply to Willber:
At the moment the only people we allow to use the ledge are parties under instruction. This is largely due to worries about people making themselves safe on the ledge. 95% of the people who use the ice wall independently could probably use the ledge safely but if one person were to stumble back through the archway at the front we would face a caning from HSE and potentially insurance claims about why it was possible for this to happen. We have explored ideas like using a cowstail system on the ledge but again it only needs one accident from soemone using it inappropriately/not at all and we have a lot of explaining to do. We try to keep the molly coddling to a minimum safe level but haven't come up with a safe way of overseeing this one yet.
AlH
The Ice Factor
At the moment the only people we allow to use the ledge are parties under instruction. This is largely due to worries about people making themselves safe on the ledge. 95% of the people who use the ice wall independently could probably use the ledge safely but if one person were to stumble back through the archway at the front we would face a caning from HSE and potentially insurance claims about why it was possible for this to happen. We have explored ideas like using a cowstail system on the ledge but again it only needs one accident from soemone using it inappropriately/not at all and we have a lot of explaining to do. We try to keep the molly coddling to a minimum safe level but haven't come up with a safe way of overseeing this one yet.
AlH
The Ice Factor
In reply to AlH: Hang on a minute - if the ledge is the bit I'm thinking of ie the roof of the cave then aren't there railings all round it?
A few weeks ago, one of your instructors suggested that we try starting out on the arete at the left of the cave, then stepping across the mouth of the cave to the wall on the right. The rule was that you were only allowed to use the ledge for your axes - feet had to stay on the ice walls. That involved being tied on to the top ropes for both lines. One of my friends tried it and ended up hanging upside down, much to everyone else's entertainment. I can't help wondering whether the HSE would have been so amused, seeing as how we apparently can't even be trusted not to fall over railing...
A few weeks ago, one of your instructors suggested that we try starting out on the arete at the left of the cave, then stepping across the mouth of the cave to the wall on the right. The rule was that you were only allowed to use the ledge for your axes - feet had to stay on the ice walls. That involved being tied on to the top ropes for both lines. One of my friends tried it and ended up hanging upside down, much to everyone else's entertainment. I can't help wondering whether the HSE would have been so amused, seeing as how we apparently can't even be trusted not to fall over railing...
In reply to Willber:
Your not wrong Willber. We are a business feeling our way through our first year. Support from sensible and understanding customers is a highly valued commodity. Capital outlay, maintenance of the ice wall, routesetting, staff wages (and I cant pay them half what some of them deserve) and of course the everpresent insurance (you wouldn't believe the quoted increase we have been told to expect despite an excellent safety record) it all mounts up quite quickly, but so far so good for the Ice Factor, at least were not in receivership (and that isnt a dig at Ratho)!
As a climber I am keen to keep prices realistic, as a climbing centre manager I want to provide fat ice and interesting and regularily altered 'rock' routes, and that costs (holds, cleaning, ropes, routesetting kit and hours).
You see regular debates over the prices of climbing walls on these forums and whilst I want to make walls (especially ours) financially accessible I know that other wall managers are in the same position as me- walking a fine line between turnover and costs. You (should) get what you pay for but many climbers appear unaware of the hidden costs of running a wall. It takes a lot of £6.50 all day rock tickets just to cover the Duty Manager's annual wage and they need to spend time out walking the floor so that means reception cover etc. etc.
Since your post we have spent an hour planning what we can do to improve the ice on the walls and juggling the icepacking rota for the next couple of weeks to squeeze some more packing time in. Like I said we do try to listen to constructive feedback like yours.
Cheers,
AlH
The Ice Factor
Your not wrong Willber. We are a business feeling our way through our first year. Support from sensible and understanding customers is a highly valued commodity. Capital outlay, maintenance of the ice wall, routesetting, staff wages (and I cant pay them half what some of them deserve) and of course the everpresent insurance (you wouldn't believe the quoted increase we have been told to expect despite an excellent safety record) it all mounts up quite quickly, but so far so good for the Ice Factor, at least were not in receivership (and that isnt a dig at Ratho)!
As a climber I am keen to keep prices realistic, as a climbing centre manager I want to provide fat ice and interesting and regularily altered 'rock' routes, and that costs (holds, cleaning, ropes, routesetting kit and hours).
You see regular debates over the prices of climbing walls on these forums and whilst I want to make walls (especially ours) financially accessible I know that other wall managers are in the same position as me- walking a fine line between turnover and costs. You (should) get what you pay for but many climbers appear unaware of the hidden costs of running a wall. It takes a lot of £6.50 all day rock tickets just to cover the Duty Manager's annual wage and they need to spend time out walking the floor so that means reception cover etc. etc.
Since your post we have spent an hour planning what we can do to improve the ice on the walls and juggling the icepacking rota for the next couple of weeks to squeeze some more packing time in. Like I said we do try to listen to constructive feedback like yours.
Cheers,
AlH
The Ice Factor
In reply to AlH:
Thanks for your replies, it is refreshing to see a considered and constructive response from a facility operator.
For us it is interesting to see exactly how complicated running something the Ice Factor actually is - plus it builds up a dialogue so that you guys can get good feedback on areas where you might be weak.
As for ice packing situation, I suggest you upgrade "the Stick" and beat Jamie harder with it - it will increase his productivity no end..
Thanks for your replies, it is refreshing to see a considered and constructive response from a facility operator.
For us it is interesting to see exactly how complicated running something the Ice Factor actually is - plus it builds up a dialogue so that you guys can get good feedback on areas where you might be weak.
As for ice packing situation, I suggest you upgrade "the Stick" and beat Jamie harder with it - it will increase his productivity no end..
In reply to Martin W:
Hi Martin,
the ledge is only partially surrounded with railings. The large archway at the front is the area where potential for a fall would occur if someone was not attached. As I said the vast majority of climbers using the wall are to be trusted, but the consequences of an accident here, even given the small chance of it happening mean we are unwilling to take the risk. Sorry.
As to the route you describe, yes there is potential for someone to invert whilst stepping across the gap hanging from their tools. If the instructor suggested that to you they probably had made a judgement as to your ability to protect the route safely using an extension of a simple toproping system (which you have stated you are competent to use by registering with us). At the moment using the ledge safely is not practical using the same system (yes it is possible, you could figure out a way of doing it with minimal effort but again I have the problem that not everyone would get it right).
Like I said to Wilbur we try to keep the mollycoddling to a minimum and to keep things on as informal a basis as posssible, hence the tip from the instructor on an interesting variation on a route on the wall, but if we provide a facility we are liable for minimising the risk to users. This means we have to make informed judgements often based on a worst case scenario. With climbers we can see in front of us we are sometimes able to revise our judgements on a case by case basis where staff have the time to give you individual attention but otherwise we have to keep a larger safety margin.
Believe me I am no fan of the litigious aspects of the society we live in but I do have to operate the centre in a sustainable fashion, this means making decisions based on personal experience and advice from wall manufacturers, technical experts and lawyers and insurance companies.
AlH
The Ice Factor
Hi Martin,
the ledge is only partially surrounded with railings. The large archway at the front is the area where potential for a fall would occur if someone was not attached. As I said the vast majority of climbers using the wall are to be trusted, but the consequences of an accident here, even given the small chance of it happening mean we are unwilling to take the risk. Sorry.
As to the route you describe, yes there is potential for someone to invert whilst stepping across the gap hanging from their tools. If the instructor suggested that to you they probably had made a judgement as to your ability to protect the route safely using an extension of a simple toproping system (which you have stated you are competent to use by registering with us). At the moment using the ledge safely is not practical using the same system (yes it is possible, you could figure out a way of doing it with minimal effort but again I have the problem that not everyone would get it right).
Like I said to Wilbur we try to keep the mollycoddling to a minimum and to keep things on as informal a basis as posssible, hence the tip from the instructor on an interesting variation on a route on the wall, but if we provide a facility we are liable for minimising the risk to users. This means we have to make informed judgements often based on a worst case scenario. With climbers we can see in front of us we are sometimes able to revise our judgements on a case by case basis where staff have the time to give you individual attention but otherwise we have to keep a larger safety margin.
Believe me I am no fan of the litigious aspects of the society we live in but I do have to operate the centre in a sustainable fashion, this means making decisions based on personal experience and advice from wall manufacturers, technical experts and lawyers and insurance companies.
AlH
The Ice Factor
In reply to AlH:
Why not offer "ice packing" courses. You could then get punters to pay for the priviledge of maintaining an ice wall, while also keeping it in good shape!
I'll happily forward my bank details to you so that you can deposit my commission earned on this excellent idea
Why not offer "ice packing" courses. You could then get punters to pay for the priviledge of maintaining an ice wall, while also keeping it in good shape!
I'll happily forward my bank details to you so that you can deposit my commission earned on this excellent idea
In reply to AlH: Just to give you a bit more feedback (and no, don't duck when you read this....)
My wife and I came over to see you a couple of weeks ago when on holiday, never having climbed before, and you've managed to get us completely hooked! Not only were all the staff helpful and informative, but everyone was so friendly. Both of us are looking forward to coming back next year and having a go at some of the more difficult routes you've got set up, once our tendons and muscles are stronger (and I've lost about 3 stone in weight).
I hope the Ice Factor is a roaring success, and all the climbers I've spoken to that have heard of it want to try it out - so fingers crossed!
BTW I'm an accountant that has contact with an insurance broker that specialises in risk management (eg specialist woodlands insurance, battle re-enactments etc) so I'll have a word with one of the business development directors to see if they can set something up with a specialist insurer for climbing walls. I've read an enormous amount recently about how premiums have quadrupled in just over two years, seems like you are being targetted for unjustified increases.
Watch this space.....
My wife and I came over to see you a couple of weeks ago when on holiday, never having climbed before, and you've managed to get us completely hooked! Not only were all the staff helpful and informative, but everyone was so friendly. Both of us are looking forward to coming back next year and having a go at some of the more difficult routes you've got set up, once our tendons and muscles are stronger (and I've lost about 3 stone in weight).
I hope the Ice Factor is a roaring success, and all the climbers I've spoken to that have heard of it want to try it out - so fingers crossed!
BTW I'm an accountant that has contact with an insurance broker that specialises in risk management (eg specialist woodlands insurance, battle re-enactments etc) so I'll have a word with one of the business development directors to see if they can set something up with a specialist insurer for climbing walls. I've read an enormous amount recently about how premiums have quadrupled in just over two years, seems like you are being targetted for unjustified increases.
Watch this space.....
In reply to AndyK:
Placing the pick in an existing hole is pretty common, especially on the well travelled routes and is an effective way of conserving enrgy and ice.
The trick is to make an effiecent flick of the writs, rather then a real thwack. this is particularly true in this country whereby the generally crappy ice will just dinnerplate and fracture.
I am not the most delicate of sorts, but I tend to prefer using a well aimed chip into the ice, rather than a knackering frontal assualt.
Additionally, a solid swing of the feet, preferably wwith monopoints with the heels at 90 degrees to the ice is best, remebering that the feet should relive a great deal of the exertion in the arms.
In essence, i think the lack of fear prevents the desperate thwacking with a much more effiecent and considered climbing technique.
Placing the pick in an existing hole is pretty common, especially on the well travelled routes and is an effective way of conserving enrgy and ice.
The trick is to make an effiecent flick of the writs, rather then a real thwack. this is particularly true in this country whereby the generally crappy ice will just dinnerplate and fracture.
I am not the most delicate of sorts, but I tend to prefer using a well aimed chip into the ice, rather than a knackering frontal assualt.
Additionally, a solid swing of the feet, preferably wwith monopoints with the heels at 90 degrees to the ice is best, remebering that the feet should relive a great deal of the exertion in the arms.
In essence, i think the lack of fear prevents the desperate thwacking with a much more effiecent and considered climbing technique.
In reply to AlH:
Despite venting a few frustrations, perhaps more at my poor technique in this thin ice, I must add that I really hope you manage to do just that. Operate the centre in a sustainable fasion. It is an assett to the climbing community, IMHO, a venture we should support, like I said I will be returning soon and this time will speak to someone there with feedback, at least I know positive or negative it will be listened too. A rare thing to find a customer focus centre. Hope to be failing around on the ice again soon.
> Believe me I am no fan of the litigious aspects of the society we live in but I do have to operate the centre in a sustainable fashion,
Despite venting a few frustrations, perhaps more at my poor technique in this thin ice, I must add that I really hope you manage to do just that. Operate the centre in a sustainable fasion. It is an assett to the climbing community, IMHO, a venture we should support, like I said I will be returning soon and this time will speak to someone there with feedback, at least I know positive or negative it will be listened too. A rare thing to find a customer focus centre. Hope to be failing around on the ice again soon.
In reply to AndyK: It is better than nothing you are right, and perhaps it is a case of developing a less than brutal technique, maybe an ice factor specefic one!!
For example I am sure this " ice hooking approach" will work, however not sure how confident I would feel leading a pitch knowing the tip of my tools was only resting on top of the ice. In addition how do the people I saw successfully using this technique on sunday pull up on it? As soon as I raised my centre of gravity slightly I found the tools just kept popping, unless they were burried in the ice. More than willing to take advice on that one!
It is the same question about mixed climbing, when you have hooked over a rock or ledge, whatever when you pull up how do you ensure the axe doesn't lift?
For example I am sure this " ice hooking approach" will work, however not sure how confident I would feel leading a pitch knowing the tip of my tools was only resting on top of the ice. In addition how do the people I saw successfully using this technique on sunday pull up on it? As soon as I raised my centre of gravity slightly I found the tools just kept popping, unless they were burried in the ice. More than willing to take advice on that one!
It is the same question about mixed climbing, when you have hooked over a rock or ledge, whatever when you pull up how do you ensure the axe doesn't lift?
In reply to AndyK: i definetly found that a gentle swing into existing holes made the best placements on the hard wter ice higher up. although i uaually gave up when i hit this as i just tended to bounce off it.
In reply to AlH: I'm actually glad to hear the ice was a bit thin yesterday - I thought it was just me being crap! Fantastic place though, we really enjoyed ourselves yesterday. Hope it goes well in the future.
ps - we had a quick bolder at the start too; do you think there'd be space for a few easier problems :os ?
pps - That's rather a lot of people who were at the Ice Factor yesterday online here. Blimey! Good for a bit of free market research I guess.
ps - we had a quick bolder at the start too; do you think there'd be space for a few easier problems :os ?
pps - That's rather a lot of people who were at the Ice Factor yesterday online here. Blimey! Good for a bit of free market research I guess.
In reply to AndyK:
LOL, late season in Canada and you'd probably be able to climb virtually every route just hooking others' placements so on that basis I'd say very realistic!
Still haven't ice climbed at the ice factor so can't really comment much more.
> Now, my question is this: How useful is climbing on the wall in preperation for winter or a frozen waterfall climbing trip?
LOL, late season in Canada and you'd probably be able to climb virtually every route just hooking others' placements so on that basis I'd say very realistic!
Still haven't ice climbed at the ice factor so can't really comment much more.
In reply to net:
I found two very easy problems to warm up on! Then have a play around on the featured bit to the left, I am not very good, but found enough to keep me busy for 1/2 an hour or so whilst I waited for people to arrive!
> ps - we had a quick bolder at the start too; do you think there'd be space for a few easier problems :os ?
I found two very easy problems to warm up on! Then have a play around on the featured bit to the left, I am not very good, but found enough to keep me busy for 1/2 an hour or so whilst I waited for people to arrive!
In reply to net:
Hi,
we recently added some easier problems to the upstairs bouldering area but it sounds like we need a few more! Also we dont mind bouldering in the rest of the centre (subject to the conditions of use displayed) and have put easier traverses the length of the right hand walls of both climbing bays.
The feedback is useful. Also hearing that their efforts are appreciated is a real boost to the staff team. They are all climbers who are keen to provide somewhere for climbers to enjoy themself and work in a climbing based job.
My own ice technique has always been quite mediocre (more of a mixed man) but between instructing novices and taking lessons with our Chief Instructor I noticed a real improvement last year.
The moderators may think this is a bit close to advertising but I am curious: Last year we ran a few 'Improvers' Sessions for those looking to work on technique, there was a little interest but not a lot. We charged a few pounds per person mre than than a regular 2 hour slot and our Chief Instructor ran all the sessions (he is not a mixed fan and is looking forward to his Rjukan Ice courses this year with glee). The objective was to brush up on peoples classical ice climbing technique and introduce a few more advanced techniques too. Is there a demand for this type of thing?
Al
The Ice Factor
Hi,
we recently added some easier problems to the upstairs bouldering area but it sounds like we need a few more! Also we dont mind bouldering in the rest of the centre (subject to the conditions of use displayed) and have put easier traverses the length of the right hand walls of both climbing bays.
The feedback is useful. Also hearing that their efforts are appreciated is a real boost to the staff team. They are all climbers who are keen to provide somewhere for climbers to enjoy themself and work in a climbing based job.
My own ice technique has always been quite mediocre (more of a mixed man) but between instructing novices and taking lessons with our Chief Instructor I noticed a real improvement last year.
The moderators may think this is a bit close to advertising but I am curious: Last year we ran a few 'Improvers' Sessions for those looking to work on technique, there was a little interest but not a lot. We charged a few pounds per person mre than than a regular 2 hour slot and our Chief Instructor ran all the sessions (he is not a mixed fan and is looking forward to his Rjukan Ice courses this year with glee). The objective was to brush up on peoples classical ice climbing technique and introduce a few more advanced techniques too. Is there a demand for this type of thing?
Al
The Ice Factor
In reply to AlH:
Can I just say how refreshing it is to have someone come on here and answer questions in such a positive way, rather than just ignoring them as most do, or in one case, saying "if you don't like it then go somewhere else".
I've still not been to the Ice Factor, our one attempt was thwarted as they were still clearing up after the new years party, but look forward to visiting in the future.
Can I just say how refreshing it is to have someone come on here and answer questions in such a positive way, rather than just ignoring them as most do, or in one case, saying "if you don't like it then go somewhere else".
I've still not been to the Ice Factor, our one attempt was thwarted as they were still clearing up after the new years party, but look forward to visiting in the future.
In reply to AndyK:
I think that it probabally depends on how much you've done before. The ice at the ice factor does resemble normal ice to some extent, but is very, very plastic. It feels similar to the very best kind of snow ice that you sometimes get on the ben (although is steeper than snow ice usually forms at). I think that it would be of limmited benefit for climbing water ice as it is very forgiving of bad technique, but is very good for learning the basics of moving on ice in a safe environment. Treat my opinions with caution, however, as I have only visited the place once, and I'm not sure wether the quality of the ice changes from week to week.
Mark
> Now, my question is this: How useful is climbing on the wall in preperation for winter or a frozen waterfall climbing trip?
I think that it probabally depends on how much you've done before. The ice at the ice factor does resemble normal ice to some extent, but is very, very plastic. It feels similar to the very best kind of snow ice that you sometimes get on the ben (although is steeper than snow ice usually forms at). I think that it would be of limmited benefit for climbing water ice as it is very forgiving of bad technique, but is very good for learning the basics of moving on ice in a safe environment. Treat my opinions with caution, however, as I have only visited the place once, and I'm not sure wether the quality of the ice changes from week to week.
Mark
In reply to AlH:
I took an 'Taster Session' at the Ice Factor earlier this year, I had a great time on the Ice and Simon (not 100% of name) was a good instructor and my only regret was that I didnt have longer!
I took an 'Taster Session' at the Ice Factor earlier this year, I had a great time on the Ice and Simon (not 100% of name) was a good instructor and my only regret was that I didnt have longer!
In reply to J2: Just like to say that I think it's a great place. I've been about 3 times in the last few weeks and each time the ice is different ...which makes it even better in my book!. Last time I was there 2 weeks ago the ice was fantastic and we had the place to ourselves.
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