UKC

What would people think if the pegs on the start of London Wall were removed?

They're old, rusty and ugly. I think they detract from the route (especially with the old tat that's always there) and would be a better experience without the in-situ gear.

Opinions?

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

I've always been a bit uneasy about pegs in rock-climbs. It seems to me that they've been consistently used to blur the edges between trad and sport climbing. When they are initially placed it is an acceptance that the climber cannot to commit to the route without in-situ gear, and could be thought of as a poor man's bolt. As they age, they become progressively less trustworthy, and ultimately end up making the route MORE bold. A peg stub is liable to forever mask a potential placement, so remove them while this is still possible I would suggest. If anyone complains stick a bolt next to it; effectively that's what the FA did anyway.

JAMIE B>

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

Remove all pegs

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

The start of London Wall is pretty brutal, and I for one was glad of that first peg as something solid to clip quickly. Flashing LW is hard enough without taking out the one peg which enables you to press on quickly, just as your arms are giving out.

My twopenneth.

Neil

ps. I was amused to see LW in the ludicrous "Beta Cheater" feature on Planet Worried recently. It occurred to me that if you are going to give out LW beta, you might as well include the most useful piece of beta there is - which PW ignored completely.

What beta, I hear you cry?

Well, I suppose it is relevant to this thread, but promise not to tell anyone:-


By far the best finger jam on the start is the one hidden behind the tat on the aforementioned peg!

In reply to Neil Foster:

Hmmm... not sure about that beta! The horizonal scars just to the left are pretty bomber and you can stem out left with your foot if you're flexible!

Anyway, yes - the pegs do give some psychological advantage, but I think that the natural gear on it is so easy to place and there's so much of it that they are redundant nowadays. Also, the second peg really isn't very good so the confidence that you place in the in-situ stuff is a bit dodgy IMHO.

Just think what an beautiful line it would be without that tat. One problem with removing the pegs is that it makes the guide book a bit out of date on its description!

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:
LW would not be anything like the route it is without the pegging that went on. Widen it to take the RE chockstone, now you're talking.

In reply to wire:

Aaah! Now that is inviting controversy!

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

I'd rather you didn't remove the pegs becuase I still have aspirations......

The argument about the second being poor is a bit bogus, everyone should be able to make their own judgement about what to trust.

Do you remeber the hoo-haa when DT removed the bolts from Wall Street Crash?

In reply to Jamie B.:
Yeah sticking a bolt next to it is a great idea mate

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

What about filling ALL the finger holds on London wall WITH pegs, as that is how they came to be there in the first place?

In reply to Baz47:

I doubt the ace of spades that let me down on it would even fit sideways in the place I used it now. How much it has changed, perhaps you have some pictures from then, mine have all been lost.

In reply to sutty:

Sutty, you know as well as I do that this thread is ridiculous. Without the original pegging of 60% of the Millstone routes they would be impossible as free climbs. So the argument as to whether a single peg runner on London Wall is still valid is fatuous! The 'oldies' and yes I'm afraid I include you in that Neil, are aware enough to see the benchmarks/guidelines that need to be stuck to.
Dont come on heavy and tell us we are old farts, you're teaching your granny to suck eggs. Climbing is fun, its a fun sport otherwise why are we still doing it?
Theres lots of examples of this, the peg on Eroica being a perfect example, it goes, its gone, its not replaced, that is serendipity. The same will happen to the peg on London Wall, UNLESS, the consensus is different! The same argument has been recently applied to Right Eliminate's chockstone. Discuss it yes, but dont predetermine the outcome.
Al

In reply to Al Evans:

Just going to get the rockfax guide out to see which would be impossible pre-pegging.

Twikker, Knightsbridge, Great North Road, (it may have gone free with a lot of cleaning but the layback groove may have been too thin for fingers.), all the Embankment routes, Covent Garden, The Mall, London Wall, Oxford Street, Coventry Street, Jermyn Street, Regent Street.

There are probably some more that I do not know of.

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training: In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training: Your sentiments are bang on. Why not remove non-essential fixed gear from gritstone rather than wait for it to disintegrate naturally?.

My experience suggests you may get a backlash from a bunch of reactionaries who will put in new pegs that will outlast what you have removed.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Ok, if you wish to remove it do so. Only proviso is you do it on the lead of the route and if you cannot do it replace it with a new one.

Sound reasonable?

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

They are there, they are history, leave them there as a reminder.

Somehow it is reassuring to come across an ancient decomposing peg on a route, even if its of no real use.

In reply to sutty: more reasonable than your outburst the other day - do i get an apology ?

In reply to Simon Lee:
Why not remove non-essential fixed gear from gritstone

Who decides which bits are essential?

In reply to Simon Lee:

For what? I still think you are a bit of a pratt for ignoring the majority wishes on RE but will excuse you as with a name like Lee you may have the traits of another person with the same name, Guy Lee.

Climbing is done with the consent of the majority, and those who go against them end up running courses in Spain and Cornwall, well away from the forcing grounds of climbing.

In reply to sutty: Argue with the issues rather than indulge yourself in name-calling.

Just to remind you of what you said....... 'what an absolute tosser you are, all the people who I mentioned could outclinb you any day and you STILL think you are gods gift. In truths name you are an arrogant wanker who knows SFA about SFA.'

In reply to Simon Lee:

Ah yes, I did say that. does the truth hurt?

In reply to sutty:

Forget it. I thought it was a late night outburst you might have regretted. I am sorry to have given you the benefit of the doubt.

Good night.

In reply to Simon Lee:

That's ok, nice fishing you

In reply to sutty:
When browsing the forums after a few pints down the pub, I often wonder why I did, when I come across threads like this. While browsing in the back of my mind there's always the worry that I will stumble across a really pitiful thread or comment that just winds me up, and I can't help but reply. This is one of those threads.

Sutty, I think you're out of order and I suspect that you do not live a fulfilling enough existence, otherwise you wouldn't act like you are/have.

You seem to forget that the majority view on RT does NOT represent the majority view of the climbing community!!!

In reply to sutty:
Get a life man!!

In reply to Andy S:

hey, Simon was a pratt and that is what I said. Or do you think it would be right for me to go and place pegs on routes, bolts etc where and when I felt like? He asked the question, got told to leave well alone and then went against the majority of posters.

I am winding him up, and he should see that. If he is so sensitive he should comply with other peoples wishes then we would leave him alone.

No I do not live a fulfilling existence now, in fact if I did not have this machine to communicate with I would comit suicide. being tied to a 24 hour caring situation is crap.

In reply to Andy S:

>Get a life man

would that I could, piss off

Firstly, I am well aware that half the routes at Millstone would never be the way that they are now if it wasn't for the aid climbers and their hammers. I'm actually glad they did what they did - I LOVE climbing pin-scarred cracks - whether it be at Millstone, Lawrencefield, Yosemite...

Secondly, I would definitely NOT replace the pegs with new ones, that would be lowering the level of the route.

Finally, I only used London Wall as a case study for what could be done. There are many other routes that don't need to fixed gear with the availability of modern gear (Regents, Embankment, Saville etc).

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

Indeed, they'd also not be the way they are without having been quarried so to use that as an argument for leaving the pegs is no different from saying we should re-open the quarry

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

My vote is for leave things the way they are, if the pegs are that dodgy and the other pro is that good, then a cleaner route will be with us shortly without major incident.

Cheers,

In reply to Al Evans: Is the Peg gone from Eroica now?

In reply to sutty: I reckon I could touch Great North Road without the layback crack, though it'd be hard and bold. Amongst the friction skills I've lost I've forgotten how to layback and bridged it. A lot of routes might still be doable by some folk, but as far as I'm concerned some of the finger locks aren't wide enough as they are now. Pre-pegging it might have been an impressive hardcore `RP' crag that I detest.