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Does anybody know what percentage of the Rockfax guidebook cover price (say for the new Costa Blanca guide) goes to the local bolt fund? Us Brits enjoy going over there with our UK produced guidebooks, to crags bolted by the locals but are we contributing anything for the up-keep of the fixed gear?
Cheers,
mr Gimmer
Cheers,
mr Gimmer
In reply to Ben Stokes at Work:
That always should be the first question.
Maybe phrased like this:
"I climb a lot in Spain and always contribute ten pounds to each local bolt fund at the crag where I climb. Does Rockfax contribute to local Spanish bolt funds through the sale of their Spanish guidebooks?"
> (In reply to gimmer)
>
> Are you contributing anything personnally?
>
> Are you contributing anything personnally?
That always should be the first question.
Maybe phrased like this:
"I climb a lot in Spain and always contribute ten pounds to each local bolt fund at the crag where I climb. Does Rockfax contribute to local Spanish bolt funds through the sale of their Spanish guidebooks?"
In reply to Mick Ryan:
In many places you make a donation to the bolt fund by buying the locally produced topo. I've done this in most places I've climbed in, I've also given cash directly out of my pocket to bolt & re-gear crags I've visited.
I'd like to think that Rockfax worked in the same way and donated a percentage of its profits to the upkeep of the crags it is promoting. Just interested to konw if that is the case.
Cheers,
mr Gimmer
In many places you make a donation to the bolt fund by buying the locally produced topo. I've done this in most places I've climbed in, I've also given cash directly out of my pocket to bolt & re-gear crags I've visited.
I'd like to think that Rockfax worked in the same way and donated a percentage of its profits to the upkeep of the crags it is promoting. Just interested to konw if that is the case.
Cheers,
mr Gimmer
In reply to gimmer:
The following is a quote form a thread last Septemeber.
I'd guess the answer is No.
by - Alan James, ROCKFAX on - 16 Sep 2004 - www.rockfax.com
In reply to FH:
This goes along with my point that I raise every time people ask Rockfax for money bolting. Namely that guidebooks are not the only ones making money from people's efforts in bolting up routes. The shops sell quickdraws and ropes and the walls gain the benefits of those inspired by sport climbing in the outdoors.
However, no-one, in my experience, has ever requested money for retro-bolting (there is a slightly grey area where replacing old gear becomes adding bolts that weren't previously there to replace a peg or thread). This was the question asked of the Yorkshire bolters on a thread a while back since there seemed to be a lot of retro-ed routes at places like Trow Gill however we were assured that no funds were used for the retro-ed routes.
The following is a quote form a thread last Septemeber.
I'd guess the answer is No.
by - Alan James, ROCKFAX on - 16 Sep 2004 - www.rockfax.com
In reply to FH:
This goes along with my point that I raise every time people ask Rockfax for money bolting. Namely that guidebooks are not the only ones making money from people's efforts in bolting up routes. The shops sell quickdraws and ropes and the walls gain the benefits of those inspired by sport climbing in the outdoors.
However, no-one, in my experience, has ever requested money for retro-bolting (there is a slightly grey area where replacing old gear becomes adding bolts that weren't previously there to replace a peg or thread). This was the question asked of the Yorkshire bolters on a thread a while back since there seemed to be a lot of retro-ed routes at places like Trow Gill however we were assured that no funds were used for the retro-ed routes.
In reply to Ben Stokes at Work:
Any thoughts about putting a collection box in the shop on the way into Portland.
I have 'donated' as it were by buying every available dorset miniguide/update/bouldering guide etc...
Any thoughts about putting a collection box in the shop on the way into Portland.
I have 'donated' as it were by buying every available dorset miniguide/update/bouldering guide etc...
In reply to FH:
Guess.......as in the American "guess?" I'm sure Alan will respond soon....he's out.
Go grab a Big Mac, FH.
M
> (In reply to gimmer)
>
> The following is a quote form a thread last Septemeber.
> I'd guess the answer is No.
>
> The following is a quote form a thread last Septemeber.
> I'd guess the answer is No.
Guess.......as in the American "guess?" I'm sure Alan will respond soon....he's out.
Go grab a Big Mac, FH.
M
In reply to Mick Ryan:
Dear Mick
Yanks like you won't like climbing in Spain. Spain is full of English lager louts. Worse still is drunken Scots.
Norrie
Dear Mick
Yanks like you won't like climbing in Spain. Spain is full of English lager louts. Worse still is drunken Scots.
Norrie
In reply to Wilbur:
That will probably be enough for a few years to come...
> Any thoughts about putting a collection box in the shop on the way into Portland.
>
> I have 'donated' as it were by buying every available dorset miniguide/update/bouldering guide etc...
>
> I have 'donated' as it were by buying every available dorset miniguide/update/bouldering guide etc...
That will probably be enough for a few years to come...
In reply to Mick Ryan:
Mick, Look at it a slightly different way (from rockfaxs perspective). People have enough of a sense of ownership over rockfax that they feel they can criticise you lot for not doing this in the same way people criticise governments and their own places of work for not doing enough about things that matter to them. I know your a business though and don't 'expect' you to do anything, though I know you contribute a reasonable amount. I don't contribute anything to bolt funds as I don't sport climb.
Pete
Mick, Look at it a slightly different way (from rockfaxs perspective). People have enough of a sense of ownership over rockfax that they feel they can criticise you lot for not doing this in the same way people criticise governments and their own places of work for not doing enough about things that matter to them. I know your a business though and don't 'expect' you to do anything, though I know you contribute a reasonable amount. I don't contribute anything to bolt funds as I don't sport climb.
Pete
In reply to Ben Stokes at Work:
Maybe not with the amount of whippers i take
> (In reply to Wilbur)
>
> [...]
>
> That will probably be enough for a few years to come...
>
> [...]
>
> That will probably be enough for a few years to come...
Maybe not with the amount of whippers i take
In reply to Hotbad Peteel:
I look at it all ways and I think you will find that Rockfax is very open to criticism, both constructive and otherwise. The Rockfax mantra has always been, "what does the climber want, what does the climber need", I'm not saying that we always get it spot on but it's not through lack of trying. The philosophy behind that mantra is that if we can produce what climbers want, the guides will sell and we can be repaid for our work.
On the issue of bolt funds, this is a question directed at Rockfax UK and Alan will, as always, post an answer as he always does, a thoughtful answer I can assure you.
From my perspective, the purchase of bolts is primarily the responsibility of those who put up first ascents.
Re-equipping (not retro-bolting) is better organised as a local collective funded by a variety of sources; donations from individuals, climbing organisations and climbing businesses that benefit from climbers climbing: these climbing businesses include guidebook publishers and authors, climbing photographers, climbing magazines, climbing shops, climbing walls and equipment manufacturers. And also local businesses that benefit from visiting climbers.
The subject of foreign climbing business donating to local bolt funds however is not as straightforward as some might think. I'm sure Alan will talk further about this.
Mick
> (In reply to Mick Ryan)
>
> Mick, Look at it a slightly different way
>
> Mick, Look at it a slightly different way
I look at it all ways and I think you will find that Rockfax is very open to criticism, both constructive and otherwise. The Rockfax mantra has always been, "what does the climber want, what does the climber need", I'm not saying that we always get it spot on but it's not through lack of trying. The philosophy behind that mantra is that if we can produce what climbers want, the guides will sell and we can be repaid for our work.
On the issue of bolt funds, this is a question directed at Rockfax UK and Alan will, as always, post an answer as he always does, a thoughtful answer I can assure you.
From my perspective, the purchase of bolts is primarily the responsibility of those who put up first ascents.
Re-equipping (not retro-bolting) is better organised as a local collective funded by a variety of sources; donations from individuals, climbing organisations and climbing businesses that benefit from climbers climbing: these climbing businesses include guidebook publishers and authors, climbing photographers, climbing magazines, climbing shops, climbing walls and equipment manufacturers. And also local businesses that benefit from visiting climbers.
The subject of foreign climbing business donating to local bolt funds however is not as straightforward as some might think. I'm sure Alan will talk further about this.
Mick
In reply to gimmer:
Well the short answer to your question is - no, none of the cover price of the latest Costa Blanca guide goes directly to Spanish bolters.
We did once donate to the climbers in El Chorro but never really got any idea about whether or not that money actually went towards any bolts or just into some guy's pocket. We also offered free books to the climbers at Sella once but these were turned down (although the story is a bit more complicated than that).
The thing about climbing in Spain is that it isn't organised to any great degree and where you would actually donate to is totally unclear. A book like the Costa Blanca would probably mean making donations to around 15 separate groups of climbers since there is no central fund. Once that donation had been made there would be no guarantee that it would be used for re-equipping and not for developing some secret crag or just disappear. It wouldn't be right of us to build something like that into the price since we couldn't make any guarantees about it.
In actual fact guidebooks funding bolting is an extremely poor method of generating funds and is often used as an excuse for just producing poor guidebooks. It is also said to happen in loads of places where it doesn't really happen. Often it is just the case of the book being written by the local climber or climbers, who then use their commission from the publication to bolt new routes and occasionally re-bolt old routes, or more often just as reward for the efforts that they have already put in. In other cases it is just plainly not true despite it being a popular myth. In all cases there isn't really enough money in guidebooks to generate both large funds for bolting and sustainable high quality guidebooks.
This isn't to say that we don't acknowledge a degree of responsibility in this respect but we have made the decision to confine our bolt fund donations to the UK where we are the largest contributors to bolt funds amongst the guidebook-producers having made donations to Peak, North Wales, Dorset. The latter includes the very successful initiative run with Ben Stokes where his superb Portland Update has generated a healthy surplus of funds for bolting in Dorset.
In Spain and other non-UK areas I hope that the general contribution we make to the local economy is significant enough. Certainly in areas like the Costa Daurada, where a lot of the local refuges and camp sites are run by climbers, the only complaints we get are that the area has become too popular. In the Blanca it is difficult to assess since there are so many different groups but we have tried to promote the areas and the local guides in the latest book and there is no doubt that the area benefits tremendously from the business that the Rockfax and Craggs' guides have generated over the years. There is probably better climbing near Madrid than on the Blanca but very few non-Spanish go there. I am sure a Rockfax would change that.
I hope this answers your question. Please don't think that we are rolling in money because we are ripping off local climbers in Spain - this couldn't be further from the truth.
Alan
Well the short answer to your question is - no, none of the cover price of the latest Costa Blanca guide goes directly to Spanish bolters.
We did once donate to the climbers in El Chorro but never really got any idea about whether or not that money actually went towards any bolts or just into some guy's pocket. We also offered free books to the climbers at Sella once but these were turned down (although the story is a bit more complicated than that).
The thing about climbing in Spain is that it isn't organised to any great degree and where you would actually donate to is totally unclear. A book like the Costa Blanca would probably mean making donations to around 15 separate groups of climbers since there is no central fund. Once that donation had been made there would be no guarantee that it would be used for re-equipping and not for developing some secret crag or just disappear. It wouldn't be right of us to build something like that into the price since we couldn't make any guarantees about it.
In actual fact guidebooks funding bolting is an extremely poor method of generating funds and is often used as an excuse for just producing poor guidebooks. It is also said to happen in loads of places where it doesn't really happen. Often it is just the case of the book being written by the local climber or climbers, who then use their commission from the publication to bolt new routes and occasionally re-bolt old routes, or more often just as reward for the efforts that they have already put in. In other cases it is just plainly not true despite it being a popular myth. In all cases there isn't really enough money in guidebooks to generate both large funds for bolting and sustainable high quality guidebooks.
This isn't to say that we don't acknowledge a degree of responsibility in this respect but we have made the decision to confine our bolt fund donations to the UK where we are the largest contributors to bolt funds amongst the guidebook-producers having made donations to Peak, North Wales, Dorset. The latter includes the very successful initiative run with Ben Stokes where his superb Portland Update has generated a healthy surplus of funds for bolting in Dorset.
In Spain and other non-UK areas I hope that the general contribution we make to the local economy is significant enough. Certainly in areas like the Costa Daurada, where a lot of the local refuges and camp sites are run by climbers, the only complaints we get are that the area has become too popular. In the Blanca it is difficult to assess since there are so many different groups but we have tried to promote the areas and the local guides in the latest book and there is no doubt that the area benefits tremendously from the business that the Rockfax and Craggs' guides have generated over the years. There is probably better climbing near Madrid than on the Blanca but very few non-Spanish go there. I am sure a Rockfax would change that.
I hope this answers your question. Please don't think that we are rolling in money because we are ripping off local climbers in Spain - this couldn't be further from the truth.
Alan
In reply to gimmer:
In a perfect world local climbers would produce mullti-lingual guides in a collaborative effort. They would do this for the love of sharing local information to a wider audience. Income in excess of production, marketing and distribution costs would go to covering the expenses of those who wrote the guide, toward mitigating climber impacts, toward safeguarding access and toward funding the replacement of fixed gear.
Maybe even, collaboration between climbers on a regional basis would produce foreign language versions of local guidebooks with the monies directed as above.
So when you went to an area, in Germany, or Spain, or England when buying the guide to that area you would be contributing toward access efforts that allows you to visit the crag and the upkeep of fixed gear that allows you to fall in relative safety.
This model does work to a certain extent, except for the multilingual aspect. If you (of whatever nationality) buy a UK guidebook to a UK area you do know that the publisher is a supporter of the BMC and may contribute toward re-equipping. But as regards cross-border contribitions between say a German producer of Spanish guides it has yet to be worked out fully, if indeed it will be ever worked out. Perhaps best to keep it local and so Spanish guidebook publishers contribute to their own areas and UK publishers to theirs.
M
In a perfect world local climbers would produce mullti-lingual guides in a collaborative effort. They would do this for the love of sharing local information to a wider audience. Income in excess of production, marketing and distribution costs would go to covering the expenses of those who wrote the guide, toward mitigating climber impacts, toward safeguarding access and toward funding the replacement of fixed gear.
Maybe even, collaboration between climbers on a regional basis would produce foreign language versions of local guidebooks with the monies directed as above.
So when you went to an area, in Germany, or Spain, or England when buying the guide to that area you would be contributing toward access efforts that allows you to visit the crag and the upkeep of fixed gear that allows you to fall in relative safety.
This model does work to a certain extent, except for the multilingual aspect. If you (of whatever nationality) buy a UK guidebook to a UK area you do know that the publisher is a supporter of the BMC and may contribute toward re-equipping. But as regards cross-border contribitions between say a German producer of Spanish guides it has yet to be worked out fully, if indeed it will be ever worked out. Perhaps best to keep it local and so Spanish guidebook publishers contribute to their own areas and UK publishers to theirs.
M
In reply to gimmer:
Personally I don't care whether Rockfax gives money to bolt funds, that's not why I but them. If you want a guide book buy a guide book, if you want to give money to a bolt fund do so. I don't expect a percentage of money I spend on booze to go to the AA (not the automobile associatiion before some RT wag jumps in)
Personally I don't care whether Rockfax gives money to bolt funds, that's not why I but them. If you want a guide book buy a guide book, if you want to give money to a bolt fund do so. I don't expect a percentage of money I spend on booze to go to the AA (not the automobile associatiion before some RT wag jumps in)
In reply to Mick Ryan:
I changed my Burger to a Burger King burger!
F
>
> Go grab a Big Mac, FH.
>
> M
> Go grab a Big Mac, FH.
>
> M
I changed my Burger to a Burger King burger!
F
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Thanks for taking the time to answer this Alan, I can see exactly where you're coming from.
Cheers,
mr Gimmer
Thanks for taking the time to answer this Alan, I can see exactly where you're coming from.
Cheers,
mr Gimmer
In reply to gimmer:
Actually I have just had a very interesting chat with Sue at The Edge Shop about this very issue since she spent a lot of time in Spain last year and got to know several of the local groups.
If the local climbers were to approach me with a re-bolting plan for some crag, then it would be very easy for me to donate some funds to that and I'd be perfectly happy to do so. The problem with general donations is the ambiguity about where the money goes and I am not prepared to finance the bolting of some wonder crag or in fact any new routing in general.
In fact this is exactly how Rockfax donate money to bolt funds in this country. I am in contact with some local like Gary Gibson and I let him have a bit of money for bolting which comes out of my pocket instead of the business for liability reasons. We never build any donations into the price of any of our books since people wouldn't be aware of what they were donating to when they bought the book and, in this country, people buying Northern Limestone might not want to contribute to bolting.
So, in response to this thread and the chat with Sue, I'll send an email to some of my contacts in the Blanca and mention this as a possibility.
Alan
Actually I have just had a very interesting chat with Sue at The Edge Shop about this very issue since she spent a lot of time in Spain last year and got to know several of the local groups.
If the local climbers were to approach me with a re-bolting plan for some crag, then it would be very easy for me to donate some funds to that and I'd be perfectly happy to do so. The problem with general donations is the ambiguity about where the money goes and I am not prepared to finance the bolting of some wonder crag or in fact any new routing in general.
In fact this is exactly how Rockfax donate money to bolt funds in this country. I am in contact with some local like Gary Gibson and I let him have a bit of money for bolting which comes out of my pocket instead of the business for liability reasons. We never build any donations into the price of any of our books since people wouldn't be aware of what they were donating to when they bought the book and, in this country, people buying Northern Limestone might not want to contribute to bolting.
So, in response to this thread and the chat with Sue, I'll send an email to some of my contacts in the Blanca and mention this as a possibility.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I think you should include the proviso that they don't keep the crags a secret!!
Chris
I think you should include the proviso that they don't keep the crags a secret!!
Chris
In reply to Alan
I have several French locals, mostly localy produced to one or a few crags. All of them (with the exception of a guide for PenHir) have something along the lines of 'buy this book & help (re)-equip the crags'. Are you saying that this statement is wrong ? that buying guides doesn't help ? The only case I know much about would be the guide for the local crags crags produced by the CAF in Nancy (I used to be a member) and although the money from guidebook sales didn't go directly into a bolt fund as such, bolting was subsidised by the club, using money raised from the sale of guidebooks amongst other sources of money.
I have several French locals, mostly localy produced to one or a few crags. All of them (with the exception of a guide for PenHir) have something along the lines of 'buy this book & help (re)-equip the crags'. Are you saying that this statement is wrong ? that buying guides doesn't help ? The only case I know much about would be the guide for the local crags crags produced by the CAF in Nancy (I used to be a member) and although the money from guidebook sales didn't go directly into a bolt fund as such, bolting was subsidised by the club, using money raised from the sale of guidebooks amongst other sources of money.
In reply to Doug:
No, I am saying that it is not always true. I have also heard it said of crags where there is no such claim in the guidebook.
France also has the worst guidebooks around and they all cover tiny areas. I don't think that the France model should be held up as a way of funding crag redevelopment and producing good guides. A decent general guide to areas in France would attract loads more people and almost certainly increase business in the local climbing communities and probably sell more local guides as well.
> All of them (with the exception of a guide for PenHir) have something along the lines of 'buy this book & help (re)-equip the crags'. Are you saying that this statement is wrong ? that buying guides doesn't help ?
No, I am saying that it is not always true. I have also heard it said of crags where there is no such claim in the guidebook.
France also has the worst guidebooks around and they all cover tiny areas. I don't think that the France model should be held up as a way of funding crag redevelopment and producing good guides. A decent general guide to areas in France would attract loads more people and almost certainly increase business in the local climbing communities and probably sell more local guides as well.
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