UKC

As 80% of the topics on here this winter seems to have something to do with leashless winter climbing or adding bits to your tools to make leashless climbing easier, I want to know how many people have tried it and given up?

I've got classic Quarks, now with a Dave Hunter design trigger loop on them, but I have also climbed with friends' Grivel Taa-k-oons, Simond Scuds and Simond Coyote Lights.

My experience is that on ground that you climb within your comfort level, leashless is great, you can move fast, make less placements, place screws very quickly (and take them out quick if seconding), warm your hands up easily, etc etc. Basically all the stuff that the leashless prophets tell you.

But when I get on to stuff that is hard for me - which at my punterdom level is four or five metres of 'real' vertical ice - I'm just too weak to hang on to them, particular in the one arm locked off position whilst you swing the other tool to get the next placement.

I think that generally I have weak arms - on rock I can climb E1 vertical or off-vertical, but fall off overhanging HVS routes (for the peak-obsessed amongst you as an example - that E1 at the Embankment at Millstone was easy, but I fell off the Sloth). I also don't think my hands are very strong - I much prefer hanging from a jam than hanging from even a good jug on steep rock.

The equivalent in ice climbing to the jam has got to be hanging from your wrist-loop i.e. you are using your skeleton to hang rather than your muscles. Whilst even with modern leashless tools, holding on by hand is more like holding a good jug on a rock route.

Does anybody else's experience lead them to think that leashless climbing favours those with strong arms? One of my mates who climbs at a very similar standard to me on rock and also on ice, has led WI5 since going leashless which impresses me a lot; whilst I think that if I threw away my leashes my ice climbing would probably drop back a grade.

Any thoughts?

In reply to TobyA:

I don't have strong arms. I can't hang around on steep rock for long BUT I think this is to do with poor footwork/body position rather than arm strength. In other words, for whatever reason, my teqhnique is worse on rock as opposed to ice.

I agree with the jam/jug analogy.

The crux of an ice route is, for me, placing adequate protection rather than placing tools or making individual moves. As leashless speeds this considerably (and makes resting your arms easier as you can swap from hand to hand very easily) I'm utterly convinced its better.

Everybody's different I suppose...

ps I didn't design the loops, it was a Norwegian fellow called Rein.

In reply to TobyA:

I use left hand in a leash, can hang from a good placement no problem and leashless for right hand, for placing screws and shaking out.

In reply to TobyA:
Interesting topic - I have been giving it a lot of thought recently. I have both classic Quarks and Ergos. I don't have trigger loops, just a clipper leash on the RHS on the classics.

I find that climbing stuff that I am comfortable in, with some less steep patches, snow to clear etc, that the classics are better. However, when it comes to the vertical, sustained stuff and beyond (5+/6) the Ergos come into their own. As has been said, it's not the climbing that is the difficult bit - it's hanging around placing screws (blunt ones usually!) I find it's much quicker, less tiring and you can shake out if you want.

I think there is a subtle physiological diffrence in the two types of axe. I have done a lot of training with both types recently and really tried to understand what part of your body is being used in each case. The classics tend to use forearm and lats much more - the Ergos more the bicep. This would explain why non-rock climber types coming from other sports (like me for example) find the Ergos easier to use. We tend to have more developed arms, esp. biceps, that are really not that useful in rock climbing.

If Joe average tries to do pull-ups, he'll usually be able to do more palms facing than palms away - because it uses a more worked and stronger muscle - the biceps. This may not be the same for most climbers, because we all tend to train pull-ups , palms away as its much more sport specific. Maybe you should try doing some pull-ups, palms facing and a few biceps curls in the gym?

I now find that I have no mental comfort from having leashes - to start with I felt more secure but that has changed in a short space of time. I find the Ergos handle much easier to hold for a longer period of time. The only place I don't like them is when space is quite constricted and you have to make a short swing to get a placement - then I find the angle of swing difficult and go often take a few goes to get a "stick".

In reply to TobyA:

Totaly agree, I was glad of leashes in La Grave on one steep route in particular when I ran out off steam. I manage to recover my strength after resting on my leashes and placing a lifesaving Grivel 360 icescrew in a fluting. Probably wouldn't be typing this if I didn't have the leashes. Though some British folk I saw climbing leashless had the axes tied to their harnesses and I could see how that would work if you get the length right and don't get yourself in a fankle...!
As I don't climb on adrenalin anymore (most of the time!) and can now usualy get protection in even vertical to overhung ice with the new state of the art ice screws I still probably use up my strength placing the screws. On easier WI3 and 4's I probably don't require them for resting apart from getting over a 20 plus years habit of letting my axes drop onto my leases.........! They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks and I kinda understand that now, If I were to go leashless now I think I'd lose a lot of axes due to old habits and be a real danger to those below!

Cheers Ron

In reply to TobyA:
Glad to hear from another weak armed warrior! Used these new fangled ta-k-oon's from grivel in rjukan last week, both leashed and leashless. The freedom of l-less is a real eye-opener, and weirdly I found the steeper the better. However, I kept the clipper leashes on to use if real pump ensued. What made most difference was the trigger.I hereby swither.

In reply to TobyA: Simple do more pull ups, bicep curls, sholder press, and tricep over head extensions! Another words get stronger!

In reply to Ron Walker:
Probably wouldn't be typing this if I didn't have the leashes.
Maybe if you had leashless tools with an easier holding position you wouldn't have been pumped in the first place?
Or maybe not.

In reply to all:

Dave - the crux of an ice route for me is often resisting the temptation to stop at another service station on the way to the crag for another coffee and donut... More seriously, I can normally hang alright (leashless I sometimes hold the head of the axe, rather than the handle - although I suspect if I try my mates Coyotes a bit more the handle on them is no harder to hold than the head - unlike with my quarks). For me the crux is holding on with one arm bent whilst swing my other tool.

Alii - I might give your idea a go, but don't you find your hanging hand gets very very cold? One of the nice things with clippers is that you can easily use either hand to place screws keeping them both a bit rested and warmer.

Dean - pull ups... Isn't that what footwork is for? It allows you to avoid needing to be able to do any pull-ups?

In reply to Dean:

I haven't been in a gym since leaving school. I hope to keep it that way.

In reply to TobyA:
Ha - I'd hoped to avoid it after spending far too much time in the gym earlier in my life. But...... when it's steep and you're scared there's nothing like having a bit of extra power to rely on.
I do think that ice climbing as opposed to rock has a certain amount of brute strength needed. One you place your axes and walk your feet up, your doing some sort of pull-up or lock-off every time. Good technique can certainly minimise it but the strength needs to be there.

I think climbing to WI5/5+ is more in the head than conditioning anyway. After that we'll see ..... (next week!)

In reply to TobyA:
There is no doubt that when it comes to all forms of climbing, the stronger the better. I have heard Ben Moon say that his hardest boulder problems now come down to how hard he can pull, and legend has it that the infamous Stevie Haston used to to upwards of a thousand pull ups a day during peak training.

That said, they both are also blessed with awesome climbing technique. I consider myself quite strong ( I can pull up with 30kilos of weight added) but have failed on routes that considerably weaker climbers cruise up.

There is a compromise to be found, the complete climber these days should be strong and have good technique. As to leashless, the more you try it, the stronger you will get.

In reply to Morrison, Dean and others: The point about being stronger is obviously true, but my real point is I can climb better with leashes than with out. If I got stronger I could surely climb better with or without leashes, but I think that I could probably still climb better with leashes. The only argment for leashless tools then for me is that its better style - but my missus will be dead angry if I go out and buy a pair of Quark Ergos, so my ethics will have to remain compromised!

Anyway, all you ice climbing chappies, I've already been out and done three little steep ice pitches today, placed... ummm... six or so ice screws and even had to battle a cornice all before lunch and after dropping by the office to sort some papers out. Cool eh? I did use my leashes though...

In reply to TobyA:



Yeah, you need to do less iceclimbing. All that yomping about and loading your calves builds way too much lower body mass. Basically your power-to-weight is screwed.

Hope I haven't missed the point ...

In reply to TobyA: only reason t have leashes is if u let go. dont do it. goodaxes cost bout 130 squid.

In reply to shaundkia:

Ummmm... ok.... thanks. Profound. Really.

In reply to Dean:

Your two statements are a bit contradictory, non?

But I agree with the second.

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:
Not really. I think first and foremost it's a head game. How many falls have I had ice climbing? - one whilst seconding my first grade 5 in my first season. How many falls have I had rock climbing - 100's I guess. How nervous do I feel before I try an ice climb at my limit (or new ground) - very. Hyped up but not that nervous rock climbing.
After that comes technique - but to me there is so much more to the technique of rock climbing than ice. Sure - there are a few tricks to learn with ice but nothing compared to rock.
Then comes conditioning - brute strength and endurance help here in both, more so in the grand scheme of things with ice than rock. Without your head sorted and technique the strength and endurance won't see you through. But, and it's a big but, we all make so many of our decisions pre the climb. Because, we can't afford to fall, and very rarely do, we are all conservative in the routes we attempt. Having a bit extra in the strength and endurance dept. helps you go for that extra grade. Also, we have such a short season to climb ice, it's give us something to do the rest of the year!