UKC

Simon Young has finally completed the project on Menachurch Point that he has been working on since last summer. He had the moves wired ages ago but getting the right conditions (ie all the holds dry) was the problem. He's called it "Die Umkerung der Fuge" and has given it 8b+.
So what do people think of the ethics of this in a previously totally trad area? I know Si has given it a lot of thought (he wouldn't accept my subs for the Barn last summer until he'd told me in case I disapproved too much!) Now I'm a fairly keen Culm traditionalist, not opperating at Si's level, in the past, I would have condemed bolts on culm on principle, but I actually support Si here. The line is steeply overhanging, unprotectable with natural gear or pegs, and impossible to organise a top rope (if you tried, you would almost certainly hit rocks when you swung off). It does not impinge on any of the other routes and I do not think it is likely to start an unholy trend turning the culm into a retrobolted sports venue!

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Sounds awesome, are there any photo's?

In reply to Mark Kemball: I suspect it will get the same treatment as Mark Edward's sport routes and get chopped soon enough. It doesn't bother me overly, but current agreed guidelines are pretty clear on unquarried sea cliff rock.

In reply to Chris Fryer:

I bet it doesn't. I'd guessing that Simon has a sufficient monopoly of this area and established trad credentials that the usual over-excitable ethics-nazis will turn a blind eye to this. But I could be wrong. And also: overhanging culm - must be destined to fall down in a year or two anyway.

In reply to tobyfk: well you could say the same about ME's routes; sufficient monopoly and trad credentials, but his bolts disappeared pretty sharpish. Maybe the bolts will hold the layers of culm together and it might even stay up a bit longer than usual.

In reply to Chris Fryer:

Aren't there some (shit) bolts already at Marsland or am I imagining that? I don't really know but Culm's a bit different isn't it. Penwith Granite's often immaculate rock, is fondly thought of like grit. Even though it includes Sharpnose, Culm is often spoken of, with a bit of a knowing air, and isn't there shit loads of potential? I'll check later but this doesn't didn't sound like bolting at an in your face venue like the Red Rose face.

In reply to Paz:

I don't think people are refering to the Red Rose affair but those other routes he bolted on green stone

In reply to Mark Kemball:
Hi Mark,
I've often wondered if Simon would try this. Its a logical evolution of what he's been doing.
I've always been a traditionalist, but I don't see the big deal here. Why not lets have a little variety? No one can accuse Simon of not understanding local history or of being afraid of bold headpointing. Neither is he some young hot shot who is a threat to the estabished clique. If Simon bolts culm, the bolts might just survive.
I wonder whether the days of witch hunts over bolts might be over now, even in rustic back waters.

Paul

In reply to Tyler:
Aah, a School Boy error on my part forgetting about the green stuff. Carn Vellan right? I was thinking of Lands End too.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

In response to 'Monster Munch' 8b+ at Carn Vellan being re-equipped the BMC have arranged a meeting to discuss changes to the existing Cornish Bolt Policy. The date has been confirmed as:

Saturday 7th May, 6.30 p.m.
Cape Cornwall School, Cape Cornwall Road, St. Just, Cornwall, TR19 7JX.

This would be a good opportunity for people to express their opinion of Funky Si's route and the suitabillity of Carn Vellan's roof as a sport venue. It would be ill-advised for any actions to be taken before the current consensus view is established.

In reply to Paz:
I've not heard of any - anyone got any details?

In reply to Paz:
Not on the actual ascent, but quite a few on previous atempts. I think Si will send them to Dave Henderson to put in Climber. It's short, very technical as well as powerful with lots of Si's trademark heelhooking.

In reply to Chris Fryer: I suspect the bolts may well stay, Si has already talked it over with most local activists. To take them out you'd have to be very detirmined. Also a lot of the Penzance area climbers were peed off about the debolting of Carn Vellan (see Barney's post).

In reply to tobyfk:

I bet it does...

In reply to paul:

Nope. The witch hunt goes on; is still in place...

In reply to Chris Fryer:
True. I guess there's a final factorX that dictates 'ethics' in zany old Britland. Having the right mates maybe. Witness the jihad against Gary Gibson's bolts at Pembroke by the Bristol mob in the early 90s, vs the same crew's acquiescence with Martin Crocker's varying tactics around the South West then and subsequently.

LOL ...

In reply to climbright:


I should say that I don't personally think culm or any of the established North Devon/ Cornwall crags should have bolts. If there have to be rules, then at least let them be consistent.

In reply to tobyfk:

One of the refreshing aspects of culm climbing used be its 'anything goes in a fight for survival' approach. Pegs were commonplace (and equally commonly missing - it's the only place where I've ever actually carried and used them) and engineering your own stake belays not uncommon. Ehtics were secondary when the whole experience was so adventurous, whatever protection you used.

That said, bolts were never (to my knowledge) part of the equation. There are plenty of thin, scary runouts on RPs and obviously bolts would utterly change the character of many crags. I'm out of touch with the scene down there now and if, as has been stated, local feeling is in favour of this particular action then I'm not about to question it. The problem, as always, is that something that was carefully thought through and judged acceptable in an exceptional circumstance by climbers at the cutting edge eventually results in poorly thought through and generally unacceptable actions by climbers rather off the cutting edge.

I think we've been here before. I'm pretty pragmatic about this and Mark's position seems reasonable, but I would ask that others considering doing this take a good hard look at some of the stuff that has been led on culm without bolts.

In reply to Dave Garnett:
but I would ask that others considering doing this take a good hard look at some of the stuff that has been led on culm without bolts.

I couldn't agree more! It's really my only concern that bolting might spread. However Si's route is so unlike anything else that has been climbed on Culm (except perhaps some of his boulder problems) that I don't think it is likely to set a precident.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Would like to see pics for the 'environmental impact'. Seems weird to bolt a route in an area which is known for scarey trad. And an 8b+ that's rarely in condition...I can see them lining up for the 2nd ascent. What's the point really, other than for Si's own personal satisfaction? I always thought that the pegs on those routes at Speke's Mill Mouth made the place look a right mess and don't agree generally with fixed gear in predominantly trad areas. St Bees, for example, looks a right mess.

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

An observation, I don't have a moral take on this: isn't the issue with those routes and some others (Ian Vickers' route at Dyers Lookout is a prime example) that thin blade pegs are the only possible gear? Certainly that's my recollection of Down to a Sunless Sea at Speke's Mill which I think is one of the routes you're refering to.

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor: What indeed is the point of climbing lets face it, it's almost as pointless as trying to kick a ball between two sticks! Yes, I'm sure it was for Simon's personal satisfaction, but that's why we all climb isn't it. Seriously, I think he wanted to get stuck into a really hard project without having to make a round trip of 300 miles or so every time he got on it (a bit difficult when you are the only person running a climbing wall which is open 6 days a week). As for envronmental impact, the route is inside the mouth of a cave and you have to be almost standing under it and know exactly where to look to see the bolts.
As for Speke's Mill, there really is no alternative protection to pegs on most of the routes, and the climbs are well worth a visit.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

He must be driving slower these days then! 300 miles used to be an sedate afternoon trip

This is no surprise, indeed, I am only surprised that it has taken him so long to bolt a route there.

I fully agree with the comments re Simon's experience and knowledge of the area and local scene/ethics and that he isn't going to now run round bolting everything in sight. However, as always, once Funky Si's bolted route is up and accepted what is the argument against non-funky colin bolting his E1 project because it is a bit bolder than he is comfortable with?

I haven't seen the route but from your description it sounds as if, in isolation, it justifies bolts and hence I have no objection other than the example it might set to others without Simon's experience and judgement.

I just hope that the route is left as is long enough for some sort of local concensus to be reached and isn't chopped immediately by the rabid self-appointed ethics police. I have to say that I question the wisdom of posting news of it here.

Also I don't know what type of bolts he used but I would have doubts over the safety of bolts in culm.

Anyway it is good to hear that he is still keen and climbing hard. I still think he could be quite good if he crimpped more

In reply to BigBrother:


Hello. Could I mention that I recently added a line between Blisterin' Barnacle and Not Blisterin' Barnacle, "Disco Emission Shag Pants", E1/2 5b? Just bring eleven quickdraws.

In reply to Mark Kemball: I'm all for it! No one would climb anything like that if it wasn't bolted. You're right you can't see the bolts, so unless they're leaking some kind of poisonous chemical, i can't see that huge amounts of environmental impact has or will occurr, no more than say running your polluting car 300miles away to go and do someone elses bolted climb. pollution might just wipe out a lot of sea cliff climbing worldwide the way the sea level's rising. But i don't want to preach about that really- I just want to show that I support this decision and am very impressed with Si's effort here because it's an amazingly original climb.
I don't believe anyone bolted an E1! Really? That is silly because you could lead an E1 and should just progress to that level without going and bolting everything you cant do- If everyone bolted the easy climbs then we'd be like all other European sport climbers! And I think we pride ourselves that Britain has plenty of Trad climbing accessible to everyone of all levels.

In reply to non-funky colin:

It's not often I have a chance to do an Al Evans, but I'll have you know that Not Blisterin Barnacle is one of mine and I'll be down to sort you out directly.

In reply to Stef:

I think that's someone being rather tongue in cheek!

In reply to BigBrother:
Well, before posting, I did say to Si that I would! He was concerned that the ethics police might be out there chopping before he completed the project, but now the deed is done, it's time to open up the discusion.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Cool, good to see hes finally done it!

What does the name mean??

last time i spoke to him (a while ago) he said he thought it would be 8c, but i suppose things often seem easier once you've done them.

ive not seen the route, but it sounds pretty unique and i dont think it will set any bolting precedents.

Dave

In reply to Dave-Westlake:


It's spelt wrong

The reversal of the Fuge. A Bach connection?

In reply to Kipper: Sorry I spelt it wrong! It's from a Motzart piece Simon was working on when he started on the project. (Reversal or inversion of a fuge).

In reply to Mark Kemball: I put a little more thought about this- and i read all the messages and lots of people think that bolts should be snipped- One person said that people would be lining up to do the second and what's the point..Well that'd be great wouldn't it!? If people got into trying to do this hard route, sounds exciting- isn't that the entire point?!

In reply to Mark Kemball:

You don't mean fugue, do you?

jcm

In reply to Anonymous: Yes. Spelling has never been my strong point and I'd only seen it written in German on the score Si was using.

In reply to Mark Kemball: Although Si has a website for the Barn, he doesn’t actually have easy access to the web, so I took him a print out of the thread and asked him if he’d like to add anything. He sat there giggling for a few minutes and penned the following:

“Regarding my new route: The name is “Die Umkehrung der Fuge” (8b+). It seems that would be second ascensionists are “baching” up the wrong tree with their wild guessing regarding the route’s name! Sadly some of them can’t spell! The Italian equivalent is “L’inversione della fuga” (X+). I guess it means “The inversion of the fugue” (5.14a). The fugue in question is actually by Beethoven – part of his op 110 piano sonata.”

He also added that my original description as “steeply overhanging” could be misleading, it is a horizontal roof with an overlap.