UKC

I've been climbing now for about 15 years and in that time I've never come across a black climber or indeed a climber from one of the ethnic minorities that enrich our culture in so many other spheres.Indeed,talking to a veteran climber with over 50 years experience on the crag face,he himself confirmed that this too was his experience of climbing. Look through any climbing magazine or internet climbing site and the nearest you will see to a dark skin will be some young rock jock sporting a Californian tan.
Am I alone in thinking this is bizarre in the extreme ! Why do black and Asian people shun the wonderful world of mountaineering or is it a case of the mountaineering world shunning them ?
Climbing has always been essentially a middle class sport and I would say that it is more so today than it was say in the 50's or 60's. The big establishment clubs such as the CC or the Fell & Rock are not exactly accessible to working class climbers never mind those from ethnic minorities. Centres such as Plas y Brenin and Glenmore lodge are essentially catering for the well heeled middle classes. So,apart from tasting the great outdoors through the education outdoor centres,how are black and asian kids going to be encouraged to go climbing.
A bit more pro-activity from the dinosaurs in the climbing establishment would be a start.

Trevor Messiah, Ed February....

good points
...but...
climbing, middle class?? maybe in the early days but i cannot see how "some of the scruffy ruffians who grace our crags" could be described as middle class!

andy r

Danie,
Ed February is a South African who as far as I know lives in South Africa.I confess,I don't know who Trevor Messiah is ?

Yep, I live in a big, multi-cultural city. And
one of the things I first noticed at the main
climbing wall was its peculiar racial
homogeneity. Tried getting other (white)
climbers talking about it, and didn't get much
more than stereo-typing bollocks. A few years
ago a friend of mine was involved in conducting
a survey into why walkers in the countryside
are disproportionally white.... theanswer came
back loud and clear... the racism members of
ethnic minorities encounter in rural areas puts
them off. Same true for climbing???I'd like to
think not, but....

Still climbs though doesn't he!! Regardless of where he lives... I think Trevor resides in the Bristol area... Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone?

Well that may be your view of it but I think you will find it is the insularity of most of the Asian community as if they wanted to climb they would find no problems. The West Indian mentality does not seem to want to do dangerous sports as when I have climbed with them they think it's not for them. If the Asians climbed here they would piss off a lot of good climbers as they live on a better diet than most of us and generally apply themselves to what they do.
As far as the major clubs are concerned the membership has got more egalitarian than in the 60s but will always be largely middle class as they need the reassurance that they are doing the right thing by joining what they perceive as a gentlemans club only to be disabused when they attend a meet of the young hotshots. (They still put the money into the huts though, thanks.)

I realise this probably wasnt intentional on your part, but from reading your message, it seemed to paint the picture that there are no black/asian middle class people.

"Centres such as Plas y Brenin and Glenmore lodge are essentially catering for the well heeled middle classes. So,apart from tasting the great outdoors through the education outdoor centres,how are black and asian kids going to be encouraged to go climbing."

I just wondered whether this really is your view, or just another mistake in interpreation from typed words.
Jamesbmp

James,
There is quite a difference between centres such as Plas y Brenin and Glenmore which are run on a commercial basis and the state funded education outdoor centres which do offer schoolkids the opportunity to experience outdoor activities.The LEA's which run these centres usually offer financial help to those on benefits or low income.
The commercial centres do not,as far as I know,offer any financial help.

Stop picking holes in his words. What he wants
to know is, where are all the black, asian and
other racial minority climbers? And I want to
know, is it because we (climbers) are racist?
And sutty, everything you say would seem very
reasonable, if it wasn't that ever such similar
language has been used, again and again,over
the years, to 'explain' why women didn't do
this that or t'other. And it wasn't true then,
so somehow I doubt if it's true in this case.
Anyway, Jonno is probably mainly trying to
raise awareness of the issue. Right Jonno? To
answer 'why', pretty obviously you need to
address the question to black, asian and other
ethnic minority members, not to an
overwhelmingly white forum, which I suspect
this is.
Good on you Jonno, for bringing it up, it's
been bothering me for ages.
Oh, by the way, I do know some black climbers,
and one asian climber, but not nearly as many
as one would expect.

Kate - my hero(ine)! Yep - I read this thread and was initailly too scared to answer. It's vary hard to post something here without it being misinterpreted. I do see black and asian kids down the wall (Brum) but very few out on the crag. It is notable when you see a non-white person out in the hills and this does bother me. However, I think I've noticed more in recent years. I guess it's a social thing and will just take time. I certainly hope it isn't down to any racism they encounter - the climbers I know strike me as being the least racist bunch of people I know (eg. as compared to some work colleagues). I don't think (or would hope) that your average bunch of climbers would tolerate it - but perhaps I'm being too optimistic here.

Jon C, every message I read from you, I want to
email you, and you never put your email, so
'cuse me Jonno, just a teensy-weensy hijack,
JON C, EMAIL ME!!!!!!

I agree with a lot of what is said here, but I would add the following points. Climbing is predominantly a middle class sport, asian and black communities are disproportionatley working class, so both from a financial and cultural standpoint are less likely to try climbing. Secondly universities are another common entrance point into climbing, and ethnic minorities are still under-represented within higher education. At the university where I was doing my PhD there was a high proportion of particularly asian students compared to other uni's, but in the climbing club the only non-white member was kenyan-asian (where interestingly the asian community make up the business elite and upper middle class!). And of course there is an utter lack of role models (very much like for women climbers even only 15 yrs ago), although I am still a bit dubious on the importance of this and would like to hear others thoughts.

I would stay away from "mentality" arguments as I think it is much harder to generalise than socio-economic factors that are relevant to say, UK society now. Although there are few asian climbers in the UK, there are plenty in Nepal, Pakistan, India, China, South Korea, Japan, or balck climbers in South Africa, Zimbabwe etc. etc. I'm sure it has nothing to do with some mystical innate "ability".

Are climbers racist? Probably no more so, or no less so than any other comparable section of the population. Perhaps arguably people who are more open to new experiences, and willing to take some risks might be more willing to take a chance on "strangers", to ignore other-ness, but it is a very difficult hypothesis to prove I reckon.

Finally, you forgot the Sidiqui brothers (I think it was Sid who said back in the 70's or early 80's he claimed the first pakistani ascent of point five gully!), there was also a guy with an asian name who was in the mags a lot a few years back for hard grit stuff, who I believe got rescued off Gia by his teeth!!

dalvinder sohdi as well.

m@

and i cant believe i forgot, big sid and little sid who have been more than prominent in their new route activism, amongst other things.

i would tend to agree though there seems to be a sad lack of variety in the uk when it comes to culture and ethnic background.

laterzz

m@

by the way, Sid where are you? i've run out of chalk and fingertape, get yersel down to broughton!!!

I can't believe this bollocks! Climbing needs coloured people??? Coloured people need white people to help them???

ARSE! I imagine there's a lot of coloured people who will be properly offended by your very own middle-class misguided attitude that everyone really wants to be like you, and the only reason they're NOT like you is because they're under-priviledged and oppressed.

Climbing is just a hobby, for goodness sake. Just like stamp collecting, trainspotting, kabbadi and a million other pastimes. Rastafarians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, White people, Black people, Brown people, Yellow people ALL have exactly the same opportunity to participate as one another. A book, some gear and a friend is all anyone needs.

'Multi-Cultural' is good, and should be celebrated. There's NO NEED to try to make them all white and middle class.


Bloody politically correct bullshit.


See ya,

al

Once again, Al has completely failed to read the post properly and just shot his mouth off about something completely unrelated.

Al, drink the coffee and calm down BEFORE you turn on the computer in the morning!!

Sure, hobbies might exist outside racism, but the people who do or don't take part in them cannot exist outside prejudice. But oh, sorry, encouraging more (black and asian) people into the hills would mean Al would maybe have to talk to people, and be sociable, rather than insult from afar.

Jamesbmp / Jonno,
Quite correct, there is a huge asian middle class, but I still don't see them down the wall. I know quite a few Asian people who go walking, or like "the countyside", but don't know any that climb rock. When we did the "three peaks" the fastest guy in the team was Asian (cheap boots, £2.99 daysac).

SP

You are up early Al.

I definitely didn't say anything about helping people from whatever background into climbing, I just offered reasons why it might be the case that they don't climb.

"Climbing is just a hobby, for goodness sake. Just like stamp collecting, trainspotting, kabbadi and a million other pastimes. Rastafarians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, White people, Black people, Brown people, Yellow people ALL have exactly the same opportunity to participate as one another. A book, some gear and a friend is all anyone needs."

To quote you that is utter "ARSE".

If you are poor, no matter if you are "Rastafarians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, White people, Black people, Brown people, Yellow people" of course you don't have the same opportunity.

I can't afford three horses so I'm unlikely to take up Polo am I?

How can answering a question be politically correct? Here we go again...

Toby wrote:



Yet more arse. Granted, you might not be able to go into a shop and kit yourself out with a thousand-quid rack, rope, ropebag, goretex, 5.10 rubber, and all the rest of that shit, but as I've said elsewhere, THAT wouldn't make them a climber anyway.

I started climbing by playing on the Clydeside Expressway wall, in trainers and jeans. Bouldering up the side of the Clydsdale Bank. Sneaking into the Kelvin Hall wall by coming up the back stairs from the museum next door. My brother spent his first summer soloing every route, unless he could find a placement for his one and only bit of gear (a no4 rock). We were using my 15m rope.

It's not about money, or opportunity. It's simply about different cultures and interests.

Does it not occur to you at all that maybe they have no interest in climbing?


See ya,

al

I'm sure their are other reasons that racial minorities don't take up climbing. Personally I think it's due to peir groups, as more people from racial minorities take up climbing then their number will increase exponentially. Not being middle class is a load of bull. It more like my mate does it he thinks it fun or I live near a wall and I want to try it out.
John

SteveP wrote:


Oh yeah? But what about the Eastern Europeans? South Americans? Why have you singled out Black and Asian for your charity?

Standard, narrow-minded, short-sighted, misguided, white, middle-class, christian baloney.


See ya,

al

OK, fair point you can start climbing without any gear, I bought my first rope of my chemistry teacher for a fiver, but nevertheless, the sport is harder to do if you are poor (and I used to hitch-hike from Glasgow or take the bus up north most weekends for four years so I know what a difference owning a car makes).

Of course lots of people aren't interested in climbing. I have lots of white middle class friends who see no attraction in climbing whatsoever, but no one says it is in white middle class peoples mentality not to climb! I agree with you that stereotypes are shite, but it goes both ways.

You still haven't answered the question why climbing is more possible or more attractive to certain types of people.

"Standard, narrow-minded, short-sighted, misguided, white, middle-class, christian baloney."

Christian?!

Have you been reading Nietzche?

>plenty of ... black climbers in South Africa

I remember a documentary a couple of years back (about Ed February perhaps?) in which it was noted that there were in fact very few black climbers in SA.

al,

just out of interest i can appreciate your comments about folks being narrow minded, short sighted, and misguided, but whats wrong with being middle class?

m@

Toby wrote:


Now we're getting to it. Climbing is equally possible to all people, unless they suffer from some kind of physical disability or live in bits of Holland, of course. But I agree that it is certainly more attractive to certain groups, although I strongly disagree with the original poster's assertion that those groups need to be 'encouraged' to climb.

Some cultures are simply less interested in hobbies. There are more important things: work, family, religion. I expect that these things are sufficiently rewarding that they don't feel the need to escape.

I've heard stories of Bedouin having a laugh by joining in with European climbers visiting Wadi Rum etc, but the impression was that they regarded it as utterly trivial and were simply making fun of the foolish climbers.

See ya,

al

Al, Al, Al,
I fall in awe before your extensive grasp of this argument. You'll be telling us next to treat everyone as individuals.

Yours, Standard, narrow-minded, short-sighted, misguided, white, middle-class, christian baloney-spouting (have I missed anything out?)
SteveP

The middle class are so wrapped up in their own self-importance that they believe everyone looks up to them and wants to be them. Makes me want to puke!

So far..


Can meeting you on the hills in real life really be classed as "charity"?

Steve (I love climbing so much that I don't want anyone else doing it apart from my friends) P

dave,

apparently, B&Q are doing a special sale on 'broad brushes' at the moment, perhaps you should check in and get yourself an even bigger one than you are currently using.

then, after using your new brush to help you generate insightful and educated comments, such as those displayed in your last post, you can clean up your puke with it.

i had hoped for a reasoned response to my question,

laterzz

m@

Matt wrote:



The need to belong to a 'class' for starters.


See ya,

al

Mr Downie is quite right in what he says, those of you that "defend" the black/asian groups are being racist in the fact that you see them for the colour of their skin not for who they are culturaly or as individuals.

There are hundreds of diffrent groups of people all of which are individuals and some may be attracted to climb others not.
A good example being the duo of Don Whillans & Bill Peascod, both working class lads that forced standards beond their time.

Also look at areas we climb in, I live near Brimham, in this area you would think that a large amount of the locals would be climbers because they have more oppotunity than those that live in the inner city, but you would br wrong.

So who cares what colour, race, religeon or what ever the guy next to you is, just have the crack & climb because your both there because you want to be.

Aaah sorry about that M@, but it was a pretty general question. The middle class accounts for a huge amount of people. The question: "What's wrong with the middle class?" deserves a pretty general answer. Which, is what you got!
Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

>>Some cultures are simply less interested in hobbies. There are more important things: work, family, religion. I expect that these things are sufficiently rewarding that they don't feel the need to escape.

Oh yes, when I've finished working all the hours in the day in my clothes shop I go home where my wife has spent all day cooking six different types of daal for me, we discuss my daughter's arranged marriage and then I go to temple. I don't need to go climbing because I'm just a stereotype.

SteveP

SteveP wrote:


I think I know what you're trying to say here, but before I reply I need you to spell it out for me. What's your point, exactly?


See ya,

al

Well it seems no one knows why certain nationalities don't go climbing and we are getting the middle/working class war of words. I tend to agree with Al that it is probably because they don't want to. It may be that certain groups are held back by the prejudices of their parents or they may have better things to do with their time. I don't kmow how many of you have held a party where you are the only englishman there, I have and everyone had a too good time (two day party). There were people from all around the world hauled in from the international centre in Manchester and the only people who were not there were Persians as nobody trusted them so racial prejudice in that case stretched across about twenty nationalities. It is no good saying that my response is measured Kate, it is exactly as I see it I worked with a sikh before stopping work and he asked me if I was racist. I said yes, I cannot stand people who come to a country and don't learn the language. His reply was that isn't racist, he agreed 100% and said that if people could not speak the language after being here for two years they should be denied benefits if they could not fill in forms and if they became a drain on the state deported. I still see him when I go thro to Leeds occasionally. He thought climbing was a daft hobby.

Why is climbing more middle class, define middle class?

OK SteveP made his point in quite a direct manner, its up there with Al's balsa wood plane modeling level 1 badge! But I think he is pushing the argument along the same lines as I would, culture has a role, but socio-economic position is also very important. Climbing is compared to say kicking a football about, not a particularly cheap sport, even if you are a boulderer you still have to get to the boulders!

Most hobbies would seem pretty trivial if say you work seven days a week and have no disposable income as is the case for a massive section of the worlds population.

Al,
You'll have to wait till after lunch - I've got my appraisal now!
SteveP

I suspect he wasn't being as clever as that.

It looked very much to me like he was saying that nobody could possibly like being an Asian, and that we all have a duty to help these less fortunate than ourselves to become white and middle-class.

But I wanted to hear him say it. That would have been good.


See ya,

al

Sorry Sutty but I can't let that one go...

The British Empire had a particularly fine reputation in going round the world and learning other peoples languages didn't it?

Secondly, I currently work in Finland for a international organization, I travel to different countries all over Europe, and am basically monolingual besides a smattering of bad Finnish. Go figure.

oh bugger this is getting far to complex...
If as masses of people (not just elites) around the world become more wealthy, they become more educated, and they tend to adopt attitudes closer to what you call white middle class attitudes (I would add European). Of course you can find examples of this not happening, but it is a trend.

A Cosmopolitan political position where universal human rights and duties are central would see this is as good thing, as it sees global liberal democracy as moral goal.

Postmodernist and/or Communitarians political thinkers, say that lib-dem is just one relative position like any other, and morality just reflects power, only community can create morality. therefore they might argue that "others" loose something if they become more like "us".

SteveP is sorta the first and Al sorta the second, but only sorta.

I kind of support the first, although I do believe it is riddled with inconsitencies and dangers.

I think there there are socio-cultural factors in this, but I don't want to end up stereotyping so here goes. I started climbing out of an interest in the great outdoors, because my stepfather was a climber, my ex boyfriend was a climber, and I have spent most of my holidays since I was a child in the mountains. It was a logical step and my role models/people I respect were all doing it. If I were to generalise grossly, I would say that most black and asian kids are not in this situation, and so are a) not interested, and b)don't have the opportunity to try it.

This is exacerbated by the fact that there are very few high profile black or asian climbers (with the exception of Ed, who is not that well known over here), and that ethnic minorities generally don't live in rural areas.

Catch 22?

BTW, Ed is, as far as I know, the only high profile black climber in RSA too. He started climbing because he was in the fortunate position that his parents were quite wealthy, and so could take him abroad to climb, and they were into mountains too.

Blimey, a hornets nest, or what? I've been in
jazz clubs, in Chicago, where my friends were
the only black people present. I've been in
jazz clubs, in Chicago, where my friends and I
were the only white people present. I've been
told, by senior academics, that maybe the
reason more women didn't do maths PhDs was
thatthey 'wanted to get married'. I am not
saying that white middle-class culture is
somehow better, and needs imposing on black
people. (Is it true that climbing is
predominantly middle-class activity? It
doesn'ttally with my experience, but that may
be unusual. climbers aren't a very
class-obsessed bunch, in my experience).
My point about jazz clubs, if it needs
spellingout, is this: the apparent interest a
group of people shows in a particular activity
may be more a reflection of the situation they
live in than an accurate reflection of what
they feel about said activity. And before any
fool jumps down my throat with the info that
Chicago is a special case, yes it is, I picked
an extreme example to make a point.
What is definately bollocks is a predominantly
white forum trying to decide, on the basis of
personal experience, why there aren't more
black climbers.

Toby, you are talking bollocks refering back to the days of empire and if you don't think you are you should not be working for an international organisation. IT'S HISTORY. When I go to a foreign country I brush up on a few phrases to smooth the way and pick up more when there. A friend who lives in Switzerland speaks 3 languages fluently and two others enough to have a conversation. His 7 year old daughter speaks French, English and German in two dialects as it is not cool to use her native one at school. When I had my annual talkfest at new year I heard her say in perfect english how long are you going to be daddy, in other words she spoke in the language that was currently in use.
If you are in Finland for any time and you have an ear you will pick up the language SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT MIX SOLEY WITH ENGLISH SPEAKERS.

Oh and to confirm Simon C's query about the number of black climbers in RSA, I lived in Cape Town for 3 months and Ed was my landlord. I met dozens of climbers and went to a number of MCSA functions, but Ed was the only black climber I ever heard of except that there was a token black woman in the '96 South African Everest bid, but apparently she was an athlete not a climber and the team leader never planned to let her leave base camp because he never arranged her permit.

Sutty,

As to Finland, I don't mix with any native english speakers, but I know virtually no Finns who speak no english at all, and most are fluent. Try having a conversation in language you are awful at whilst the other person speaks yours perfectly, they need the patience of the saint, or a very wicked sense of humour to last more than 10 minutes. If you were dumped in Helsinki and only spoke Somali, you would probably learn Finnish, but most metropolitan Finns expect everyone else to speak english!

As to history, it should never be allowed to determine the present as it will be twisted to serve those who have power. The Balkans being a case in point. BUT if we forget history that is just as bad, and I fundamentally believe that Britain owes the rest of world much for what it did under the label of Imperialism. I think the UK can hold its head high in comparison to French or Belgian "cooperation" with former colonies but that still leaves Britain a long way from perfect. The intervention in Sierra Leone shows that military power can be used as a force for good, and shows that the UK has forgotten the commonwealth.

One of the great achievements of post-war Europe has been the way Germany has fundamentally changed in to a truly democratic and fundamentally peaceful state. If Germany had been told it could ignore its past, Europe would be a radically different place from what it is today.

I guess this is moving a long way from climbing though.

sorry on Sierra Leone, that should be:
"not forgotten the Commonwealth."

Kate why do you think it is bollocks? Sure, If we were to do it properly we should probably go and interview 200 people from ethnic minorities and do some complex stats etc... Or even better get a black climber to do the interviews... And run a pilot study to make sure that the right questions are being asked...
IMHO it is interesting that we live in such a multi-cultural society but that ethnic minorities do not take part in the sport we on this forum enjoy so much. Do you think that because none of us are really qualified to speak for ethnic minorities that we should just ignore the question?
I don't mean to be belligerant about this but I get annoyed when people are frightened off racial issues because it is such a minefield.

what a load of toss. i agree with al. i mean, who cares? all this patronising socio-cultural catch 22 nonsense - i am not saying its not true, but does it really matter? if someone's role model was your bufty-tufty white grandad who was a climber, and someone else's was their impoverished grandad who survived famine and sickness to still bring up ten kids, why should we somehow imply that the former makes more sense? in the same way, if someone came to me and said that i had inappropriate role models as i ended up a (cr@p) climber, and they want to convert me to whatever their thing is (islam, sheep-shagging, drum n bass, polo) i would tell them where to go.

(not that its relevant to what i am saying, but in any case, i have seen quite a few non-white climbers at the leeds wall recently.)

I wish this thread was easier to follow. It's all happening in the middle, and not at the end. That's not a value judgement, only an observation that it's becoming very important to check the times of postings to make sense.

I put off my appraisal.

I was doing the balsa-wood modelling bit, but now no one will believe me because Al got in there first. Good technique Al, I must remember that one for next time.

However, since Al asked me to spell it out for him, and I am enjoying myself immensely, here we go.....

>>Some cultures are simply less interested in hobbies. There are more important things: work, family, religion. I expect that these things are sufficiently rewarding that they don't feel the need to escape.

Some cultures ? - which cultures, Bengalis, Punjabis, Sikhs, Hindus? White working class youth, Afro-American middle-class - Al, don't talk in riddles. "Some cultures" seems to be more like "other cultures", marginalised ones.

...are simply less interested in hobbies..
you really don't expect us to believe that do you? a) hobbies are mainly the preserve of us white folks? well, there's at least ten centuries of culture, poetry, art, music, sport and games out the window. So either you are dismissing all that, or
b) This is an assumption due to not knowing anyone outside your own small group who have shared their hobbies / interests / personal life with you.

...There are more important things: work, family, religion...
This sounds like a typical Asian stereotype. Hard working, everyone lives in one house, and there are loads of mosques everywhere. After all, they are not ordinary people, with hopes, who get pissed off with children, argue, fall out, hate work, have illnesses. Al, you've said you climb to get away from work and domestics, but you assume that "some cultures" (and that would be foreign cultures, and specifically Asian cultures), don't have that same desire, sometimes / often. That's more than a tad narrow minded.

...I expect that these things are sufficiently rewarding that they don't feel the need to escape.

The word "escape" here betrays you. Obviously you don't find them sufficiently rewarding, but these "cultures" are so odd that these things are "sufficiently rewarding". Al, we are not talking about Aliens or other species here, we are talking about fellow human beings. The fact that they don't go climbing is no indication that family / work / religion is "sufficiently rewarding", nor is it an indication that they have no other hobbies, nor it is an indication that they have no need to escape. It is an indication of your lack of knowledge and glibness.

So, Al, you've made a totally unfounded statement which veers very close to racial stereotyping, although in your case I'll assume you meant well.

Toby,
Actually I'd like to think I went for the more Po-Mo point of view, which, I guess, sorta puts you, me and Al on the same side, sorta.

Smashing
SteveP

I certainly didn't intend to be patronising, but I guess that is an argument that anyone can level at someone white attempting to discuss race issues. I would like to point out however that I am not implying that we should all rush out and convert black people to climbing like some bonkers 19th century missionaries. It is interesting, thats all. Except to you and Al, who don't care either way, which is fine!
I quite like drum and base by the way, and I'm on a mission to convert the world.

This thread has now deviated, and it's full of chummy little chats, and name dropping.

I demand it be stopped and withdrawn right now!!!
SP

That should have read drum n bass I guess I need to free myself from my white mddle class language a bit more!

Steve,

I promise not to write "sorta" again. Next time I will type "sort of", "kind of" or "approximately". It will take just a wee bit longer!

As to you being a PoMo, I'm not sure - you definitely seem to me to be pointing to a universal human experience. I'm all up for that, in fact thats something I like about climbing, being out from your gear and scared stupid has to feel pretty similar to everyone who has been to that point!

Toby.

no, lucy, i do care, i care that you and others are so patronising
e.g.
"Sure, If we were to do it properly we should probably go and interview 200 people from ethnic minorities and do some complex stats etc... Or even better get a black climber to do the interviews"
i mean for chrissake, 'get a black climber to ......'
how insulting is that to any black climbers on this board or anywhere else for that matter?

Joke.

I was being sarcastic because somebody implied that we weren't qualified to be discussing this at all.

oh. sorry. i wasnt paying attention.

Just a little aside...

How many asian footballers do you see? How many
asian athletes are there? What about swimming? Most
swimmers are white.

What I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't take the lack
of 'minorities' in climbing personally, it is endemic in
british sport as a whole.

i dont even need to bother to read this thread to know that whatever al downie says will be a bag of whoofed up shite and steveP is one cool dude.

Jude, you're oh so right

Steve, I ummed and aahed about mentioning the South African thing, but I decided that as someone else brought it up, I would give my honest impression, and own up to my reasons.
Sorry you thought I was name dropping. I've come over all ashamed. Won't do it again.
The powers that be can feel free to delate that particular entry and this one.

Monk wrote:


I used to be a swimmer. The popular theory was that black people have a different bone structure and were too heavy in the water. Sounds stupid, but in all my time as a swimmer I never came across one black person who could float! I do think there might be something in the physiology argument; clearly some race groups are suited to particular types of athletic activity - Kenyan long distance runners for example. Scottish darts players. Only joking.



But it only seems to be a problem to a few white folk.

See ya,

al

Toby,
"sorta" is fine. I'm all for less typing.
To digress - I didn't know that Post-Modernism denies any universal human experience - but I'm not terribly well read.

Regards
SteveP

Jude, if you forgot about your ego for about 30 seconds you would see that Al is actually talking complete sense.

Lucy,

You didn't honestly think I was serious did you? I don't think you did, but, either way you must go straight to the "climbing confessions" thread and admit your transgressions there.
SteveP

out of his arse. c'mon man, this isn't about me (for once Al belongs in the corner of the uni union bar muttering to himself. i think some of his slacked about comments are grossly insulting.

"The popular theory was that black people have a different bone structure and were too heavy in the water. Sounds stupid, but in all my time as a swimmer I never came across one black person who could float!"

Al, yer talking shite now!

I can't float - nothing to do with bone structure, something to do with not being able to swim in my case

>BTW, Ed is, as far as I know, the only high profile black climber in RSA too. He started climbing because he was in the fortunate >position that his parents were quite wealthy, and so could take him abroad to climb, and they were into mountains too.

I think the fact that his parents were interested was important, plus the rather little-known (even in Cape Town) history of the local coloured groups walking on Table Mountain. Beyond that, you'd better ask him. I know him far too well to risk putting words in his mouth!

Dave,
I'm the "cool dude" here, so it's my ego we are discussing, not Jude's.

Dave, coming from the man who said....

"The middle class are so wrapped up in their own self-importance that they believe everyone looks up to them and wants to be them. Makes me want to puke!"

....I think we can put you in the corner with Al. The one for all the people with big chips on shoulders.

In the 50s people thought that there was something genetic about the Finns, that they kept turning out amazing distance runners, Paavo Nurmi being the most prominant. Now they are crap at it, but everyone says it is the Kenyans who are superior genetically.

Well how about another explantion. Back in the 50s Finland was dirt poor, so people did cheap sports, a few get good at it and become heros, loads more take it up, you find some more good uns etc. Same with the Kenyans now, add to this you have plenty places to train over 3000mtrs and bobs your uncle. Moroccans and Algerians are no slouches either, but thats along way from Kenya.

For along time most heavyweight boxers where Irish, then Italian, then Black. This says more about US society than it does about race.

And you can talk about fast twitch muscle fibres in west africans as much as you want, but it was a Greek who got silver in last years Olympic 200mtrs wasn't it?

That bloke who everyone laughed at so much in the Olympic swimming came from a country with one swimming pool! Strange about there not being too many african swimmers.

Although from my own limited test sample of myself, I would say the British are genetically unsuited to X-Country skiing, or maybe its just another sport I'm crap at!

I guess you'd be the centre of attention in the uni bar, huh?

out of his arse. c'mon man, this isn't about me (for once Al belongs in the corner of the uni union bar muttering to himself. i think some of his slacked about comments are grossly insulting.

It IS funny that this is an issue that bothers white people but probably isn't important to most black people. I think I have just got Al's point. (Shock, I am beginning to agree...) Interestingly a certain person I shan't name didn't really seem to care that he was the only black climber in his country. What pissed him off was that he wasn't allowed to climb in his own country for most of his life and that other climbers never questioned this.
My point being that it is good to wonder why.

Oh since I started writing my last post this has gone off the boil and got all personal. Is this a private slanging match or can I join in?

Please, feel free

Middle class scum the lot of ya

God, you late risers. Me and Al were at it at 8.30 this morning. Stop butting in on our argument. We've got quite personal as well you know, so some recognition of our venom wouldn't go amiss. (thanks Toby)
SteveP

I'd like to shout at SteveP for making me feel guilty about name dropping, Felix for being grumpy, Al for taking 10 years to fully explain his point, Toby for being in Finland and Kate for being so sensible.

But I appologised for that - read the middle of this thread and not only the end. All the good stuff's in the middle!!
SP

Yeah, I saw the apology. Doesn't mean you are forgiven!

nice one!!

Ho hum. Yes it did occur to me that he would be most miffed about being mentioned on this thread. I didn't know about coloured groups walking on Table Mtn though.

Eh? When was Sutty praising the British Empire? And isn't there a difference between settling in a country and being sent there for work?

Can't be bothered to read it all, but wanted to contribute to this pc game

Sid siddiqi

Some little grand prix driver who was around about 5 years ago called Ukyo Katayma, think he drive for Tyrol, albeit unsuccessfully, before quitting to climb mountains, for his sake I hope more successfully.

Wasn't Tenzing foreign to these shores, and didn't he climb the biggest first? Ohh controversy.

I've just scanned through the site, and Jonno you are naughty aren't you.

al wrote:


But it only seems to be a problem to a few white folk.

Er, no actually.

I was watching late night TV the other night (I've just had ligament reconstruction surgery on my knee so sleeping can be a problem) when I stumbled across an Asian Awards show. This was a really big do where they were giving out awards for Asians who had made the biggest contributions in different areas of British society. What was interesting, relating to Al's point, was that the award for achievement in sport went not to Nasser Hussein, captain of what is now one of the most succesful England cricket teams in memory, nor to a wheelchair tennis player whose name escapes me, but who I remember seeing do really well at Wimbledon, but to a guy who runs a scheme to try and get more Asian kids involved in playing football. This suggests, to me at least, that there are those within the Asian community who are concerned about their levels of under-representation in sport, and that the problem is more one of lack of opportunity than simply not wanting to participate.
That's how I see it anyway, feel free to disagree, I just wanted to comment as I was a little concerned about certain people using the word "they" to refer to entire cultures of people. Dangerous game.
Andy.

Yes, you're right in relation to what I'd said above. It was glib.

But with regard to the original question, climbing and football can't really be compared. To be a serious climber, all you need are shoes and a chalkbag. To be a serious footballer, you have to rely on the cooperation of many other people to organise teams and fixtures, and I imagine that brings the possibility of hostility, be it racism, bigotry or misogyny. In an environment like that, the only way to get over these hurdles is by positive discrimination. It's not necessary in climbing.


See ya,

al

I've just come in from work and jeeez,what's been going on ? I'm glad that this topic has caused some debate.I really think it needs debating.However,I will agree that most climbers are usually 'right on' when it comes to the big issues - not the John Dunne climb you moron.
Of course even climbing has its share of slackbrains.Who could forget those odious creeps down at Newbury who took the state's twenty pieces of silver and sided with the police and private security forces against Swampy and co.
As a career option that has to be up there with loan shark,bailiff,DSS snoop,TV licence snoop,and debt collector in the gobshite stakes !
Anyway, let's get back on message. Any British Ed February's out there ?

Toby, you are talking complete nonsense. If you want to climb, poverty is no obstacle.
Kev

Ethnic Minorities. They are minorities in our society aren't they? Do you think that might be why there might be a minority of them down the wall?
Kev

not in Ladbroke Grove they're not in the minority. and there's a wall down there under the Westway. probably full of white people.

"Who could forget those odious creeps down at Newbury who took the state's twenty pieces of silver and sided with the police and private security forces against Swampy and co."

And all so we could drive down to Portland a wee bit quicker, oh the shame of it!
There's a lot of it about though - I was walking through my local Forestry Commission woods and some evil bugger has chopped some trees down - disgraceful.

Most of Steves arguments are falacious and give a perspective from the "white man" and Felix, what can I say. You said it is patronising to ask a black person to ask the questions, why? If you said that you could ask a man to describe the pain of childbirth the women would hang your testicles from the Christmas tree, patronising indeed.

Gridge,
So,those immortal words of Joni Mitchell 'They've paved paradise and put up a parking lot' would be a bit wasted on you eh. Never mind perhaps in the future there will be eight lane motorways linking all your favourite venues.

Probably?

"'They've paved paradise and put up a parking lot'would be a bit wasted on you eh"

but they didn't - they just build a bypass round Newbury. Newbury may be many things, but surely not 'paradise'.

"Anyway, let's get back on message. Any British Ed February's out there ?"
Jesus what kind of a request is that, why not ,Anyone with an unusual allele frequency is most welcome, if a few poor people would join in it would really boost the credibility of this thread.

I'm sorry Kev but obviously rubbish. If you are a skint 16 yr old living in London, how much does it cost to get to say sheffield?

Suppose you have to recruit your own mates to climb with you as you don't know anyone else, even a basic top rope set up is probably going to be 100 quid and thats using slings as harnesses.

When I was a teenager and living in Worcestershire, climbing was really difficult. Now having some wages and access to a car it is easier.

My first harness I made from an old car seat belt, we abseiled and top roped using some blue nylon rope my mates dad had nicked from one the trucks at the factory where he worked, and our only carabiner was a steel oval that Dad had from when he did a bit of climbing in the early 60s. Huge amounts of climbing were impossible because we had no money.

You don't have to go to Sheffield to climb. Particularly if you're 16, and have a bit of imagination and initiative, there are PLENTY of opportunities to climb in the centre of London, without spending a penny. And when the time comes that you do decide to get out to a crag, it's not unheard of to hitch and doss.


See ya,

al

Jude,

I was down the Westway wall before it closed, and I didn't see any "non white" skin tones.

When I lived in Brixton I used the wall (?) there, and there were no "non white" skins.

SteveP

"Any British Ed February's out there ?"

Hah! There's only one Ed February, believe me!

Come off it. OK, so you *can* climb if you're skint, you can hitch, doss in ditches, use old shoe laces for a rope, etc etc. But it's far hgarder than if you can just hop in a car and drive to Stanage. Hence poverty *is* an obstacle - not an insurmountable one, but an obstacle nevertheless.

This reply isn't restricted to climbing.
Over recent years I have noticed an increase in nonwhite folk in the hills of the Lake District. From a complete absence to a point where I see some, albeit a small number. Have also seen more in the streets of tourist spots. I think far more asian families are coming here for holidays too. Maybe sad that I notice it at all! I have to say that I have encountered a strong racist feeling in one or two of the people I know in the Penrith area. Maybe a hangover from the days when rural folk didn't go far or se much - there are still some like that round here.
I suppose that if tourism increase then more will want to explore the mountains as well. But the numbers are very small still, and the only people I've seen climbing have been with the forces at Shepherd's

When I was at Leeds Wall last week, it was noticable hpow few people there were with red hair. Any thoughts on why gingers are so under-represented in the world of climbing?

Because people take the piss out of them for having Ginger hair. They shout "Oi Carrot-top", and "What you wearing a helmet for? Oh, you're not, it's just your red hair! Ha ha ha ha" How my sides did split.

Alternatively, there are lots of gingers down the wall, but they've all dyed their hair different colours so people don't notice.

If Al is right, and all you need is a book, a mate and some rope, then the Gingers haven't got any mates.

SteveP

Following on from Daves point, I would like to say that I actually regret using Ed as an example in this argument. He isn't here to speak for himself, and as Dave pointed out, he wouldn't appreciate having words put into his mouth. Sorry Ed. I think foot and mouth has spread to humans.
Lucy.

he he he you are a wag SteveP. kev, ive never been to any london walls, thats why i said probably. ive had two emails from people saying "god youre not agreeing with al downie are you?". to clarify my position. no i am not and never will agree with anything al downie ever says ever. i have not had time to read the whole of this thread as yesterday's sun was more important and vital to my mental health than sitting in front of a computer like a saddo (ie like now but for 10 mins only). my take on it is that climbing IMHO is mainly done by white middle class laddos. as can be seen from this board which presumably is populated by "average" climbers, then the "average" climber is mysogonist (and one well known climber's DEF got a bit of an obsession in that direction too i can tell you matee) and is also racist against..........FAMOUS CLIMBERS FROM SHEFFIELD. So how welcome then is a West Indian climber or and Asian climber going to feel on the crag or down the wall? I reckon if both these ethnic minorities got into climbing they'd burn the lot of us off. Look at the Pakistani cricketers, or black athletes. i am not coming back to this thread again i'll leave you all to it. too busy.

Following on from Daves point, I would like to say that I actually regret using Ed as an example in this argument. He isn't here to speak for himself, and as Dave pointed out, he wouldn't appreciate having words put into his mouth. Sorry Ed. I think foot and mouth has spread to humans.
Lucy.

Hear, hear. Fortunately I don't spend a great deal of time in Berkshire but I am aware that it does not quite compare to the Amazonian rainforest.
Why is it assumed that proper climbers should all adhere to the same soft left Guardian reader views? It is a hobby like any other; as far as I know cricket magazines, for example, do not presume their readers are a homogenous herd who all share the same political outlook. Cricket is very popular amonst the Asian & West Indian communities (even in Aberdeen). Perhaps there is a moral here?
The reality is that many climbers don't pass the Guardian test - Aleister Crowley, Jorg Haider, Chris Woodhead to name but 3. Are they not part of the "climbing community"?
Climbers who assisted in the eviction of the Newbury protesters had just as much right to do so as climbers who use their skills to take part in environmental protests such as the Brent Spar episode.

Legal right or Moral right Ninian? They are not necessarily the same, but perhaps it should be discussed in another thread...

Sutty wrote "Felix, what can I say. You said it is patronising to ask a black person to ask the questions, why? If you said that you could ask a man to describe the pain of childbirth the women would hang your testicles from the Christmas tree, patronising indeed."

Sorry, but I stand by that comment. Of course it's patronising for someone to act the imperialist and assume that they can 'get a black person' to do something. And to assume that some black person wants to. Patronising. Indeed.

As felix's criticisms were levelled at a comment that was deliberately patronising, in a tongue in cheek well-meaning sociology project kind of way, can I argue that there is no point fretting about whether what I said was patronising or not? ie it was and it wasn't. Depends on which way you want to look at it.
Confused?
I am.

Well Steve you are never going to get their point of view with that attitude. If you want someones opinion you ask them. You don't say this is what they will think cos you don't know .All people are different, as you mentioned in the comment on red haired people. As it happens there were two originally red haired people at leeds yesterday although mine is white now. It is the same as saying that people with rhesus negative blood cells are under represented at the wall. No they are not it is just there are less of them. Ask a child of four if there is any difference between them and they will have to think beyond knowing that there are two sexes. It is the prejudice you learn that causes trouble. If you don't understand that you need to reassess your thinking.

Sorry Steve I meant Felix.

sutty, i never said anything about redhaired people, maybe that was steve

you just dont get what i am saying. i'm not saying to anyone 'dont go and ask people of the ethnic minorities what they think'. i am saying it is arrogant and patronising to say 'let's get that coloured chappy to do this' when you don't know if he or she wants to, and it immediately conjures up images to me of a white master. the thing is i had kind of missed the point anyway, as the original comment was tongue-in-cheek sarcasm, and it was MEANT to sound patronising - i apologised to lucy for misunderstanding.

It doesn't seem that there us anything else to be said as we seem to be getting our wires crossed. Should we leave it there then everybody? Thanks for the debate, at least it has made us think of something else.

I've come across a very few asian or black English (I think that's important here) climbers, walkers, mountain bikers, cavers, in over 25 years of indulging in these activities, yet when I worked as an instructor, the large numbers of kids from such ethnic backgrounds really enjoyed the activities. It's an odd paradox, I know, but i suspect that cultural and social traditions within ethnic communities play a part.
Remember that climbing has a huge history in white English society and it is, to an extent, interwoven into our social fabric. I strongly suspect that the more broadly egalitarian and tolerant society which we are hopefully heading for, coupled with the greater integration of ethnic minority communities into the wider community, will at some point lead to more people from these communities being attracted to such things as climbing etc.
There is however, strong evidence that many people from non-white ethnic origins, particularly, are discouraged from excursions into the british countryside, by a higher proportional expression of racism than they encounter in towns. I have suspected this maybe the case, but a recent article in the outdoor press, with numerous case studies, seemed to bear this out. Now, before all you rural types leap to your keyboards to decry me as a generalist who seeks to demonise country folk, let me say that I know it isn't everyone, nor even a majority of country dwellers, but that I am convinced that in naturally insular and conservative rural communities, individuals or groups who harbour racist views feel more free to express them openly, and my feeling is that thisis a reality, which also seves to put asian and black individuals off.
I know climbing, in particular, is not just a country pursuit, but it is perceived as such amongst the wider public.
I disagree about it being a class divide. There are no clear divisions between classes anymore. From so-called "working class" upwards, there is a gradation which has nothing like the cut-off points which existed 50 years ago, and which were based largely on social acceptance. Most kids coming through schools now could take up climbing or mountain biking or any number of outdoor pursuits, whatever their background. It isn't a question of money (how many kids have a mountain bike, or cheap version thereof, yet never go off-road with it?).
As I said above, I believe things will change as we become more racially integrated. If we head down a path of separatism, then it will be reflected in a continued lack of black or asian participants in such activities as climbing.

Do you think Kabbadi websites are full of Asians agonising about why honkies aren't interested in Kabbadi?

Get a grip. If there were any evidence that lots of non-whites WANTED to get into climbing, but were being put off/prevented by racist attitudes, it might be worth discussing it, but so far as I can see there isn't any. Non-whites don't hill walk a hell of a lot, either, and since anyone with a car can do that, my guess is that for reasons which are doubtless extremely various and not worth speculating about, non-whites just aren't that attracted to the whole mountaineering/climbing/fell-walking thing.

Would be a lot more interesting to hear from any non-white climbers out there what they think.

As far as mountaineering/winter climbing goes, I would in my blinkered ignorant way have thought it quite possible that, as a generalisation, people who originate a generation or two back from hot countries might find it harder to put up with the cold than Europeans.