UKC

Having climbed some long, exposed and reasonably steep predominantly ice / neve routes on Ben Nevis over Easter (I am thinking in particular of standard grade V routes such as Hadrian's Wall Direct etc) I am very interested to hear of instances where double ice screw belays have been 'tested' by falling / slipping leaders or seconds on this sought of route. What stresses / forces are involved in general? Is the runout below survivable if the belay fails totally? In short if both axes rip together is it wipe out? Just been thinking thats all - long drive home and all that...

In reply to Alex Lynch: Hi Alex, I'd try to concentrate on something else on the next long drive home if I were you!! Best not to think I reckon....

In reply to Alex Lynch:

Depends on the quality of the ice....and numerous other variables.

In reply to Ben Nevis Ice:

Know of a recent 'incident' where a single 13cm screw held a 40 footer directly onto the belay on the Ben. However I wouldn't advise repeating the experiment....

In reply to Alex Lynch: Saw a leader fall ,30ft,onto 1 screw,short,which I retreived,on good ice on Meggie,but best not to think about it,especially as I go with the Scottish mind-set that you are belayed to yer tools.

In reply to Iain C:

Hi Iain! Was on the Ben 2 weeks ago with Dave Hunter of RT. We did Indicator Wall - more vertical mush! At least we did not go to the Albatross which was his first aim! mushy thin ice!!!

If you go the Alex McIntyre hut say hello to Ron and Ruth from me. They are there as temporary wardens.

In reply to the thread: had a long fall leading and was held by a little screw but in good ice.

In reply to Alex Lynch: Alex, its one of John's climbing buddies here, we met in Aviemore earlier this year. Good effort on getting Hadrian's done. On the ice screw thing, I can't offer much help. I was on the Ben recently and did not place one peice of rock gear in two days, all screws, some, good, some shite. I do have quite a lot of faith in screws, not sure why, I've just learned to get used to them I suppose. My approach is to spend as much time as it takes to set up a belay I'm happy with, if there is no reasonable ice about, just dig in and hope for the best. I can't help you in the testing dept as I have never fallen on a screw. And I'd rather not think about the consequences of a belay failing. Anyway, good to hear you've had a good end to the season though.

Sandy..

In reply to Alex Lynch: on psychedelic wall recently i held a 40 foot factor 2 leader fall on my thoroughly inadequate single stubby screw belay. in good ice two normal screws will be fine.

In reply to d hunter:

Hi Dave! Viva the short stubby screws!

In reply to francoise: Hi ,hope u liked the Ben,I have just finished work but couldn`t resist a look on here.
Prefer long screws mesel & as many as possible.
Will b up North this w`end if u r about give me a bell.

In reply to d hunter: Hmm that brought back a few memories from early eighties on psychedelic too. my partner came of on the crux bulge, went past me for another distance we reckoned he went about 150 ft on 2 thin hawser laid ropes no runners, except my kidneys, with two screws, one chuinard, and a snarg on a really lousey stance (one of those sideways stances as wide as your feet, toe to heel) Anyway he was not too heavy and i am 16 stone (plus) little weight on the screws on a long fall (figure eight device belay) Mate hurt his foot so i abbed of belay, shitting bricks abundantly..month later who else but Robin Clothears returned the gear which he found whilst wandering about on albatross! Moral is get a good stance on ice and you cn get away with quite a lot, but i still prefer a nice big rock peg Dek

In reply to Alex Lynch:
Both the Americans and the Canadians have done tests on ice screws - mostly with screws placed in water ice. As I'm sure you can guess, the screws are only as good as the material the are placed in. Dense blue ice generally equates to good placements - provided the ice has not dinner plated, cracked etc. In these tests the screws are holding in the region of around 1363 (except some Russian made jobbies which failde at far lower loads). So if your ice screw belay is placed in good ice, and yer tied intae it fine then you mat stand a chance. The thrill factor comes when you know or judge that the screws are not that great (like in snow ice/neve)then best just to work on the basis the leader will not fall! From accidnets I have heard of if the main belay goes then the team are usally all killed - there are some exceptions, but not many. For seconds slipping off even with a poor belay if you are using an indirect belay with a good stance, keep the rope tight and are using stretchy ropes e.g. Beal icelines you will porbably get away with it.If you want to try out the worst case look at the Petzl website they have a fall factor programme where you can recreate the worst scenario - and live to tell the tale. One other thing from the tests was that axes i.e. drving the picks of your tools into the ice and belaying of them are not worth a w###k.
If like me you have no friends and want to spend spend your social life looking at this info drop me an email with a fax number and i'll post the stuff i have to you.

In reply to d hunter: As a matter of interest where did the leader come off? third pitch bulge above the slabs?
Dek

In reply to Dek: yes. it was very good conditions for the most part but just a little chossy where nick fell. i led until the rope ran out then we moved together til i reached the top of the slabs. i put in a stubby screw to bring nick up and he led through. now nick is a very talented climber so to give the route a chance he was climbing with extremely well worn axes and crampons. about 20 foot above me with no gear placed he hit slightly chossier ground then fell very unexpectedly. i had just enough time to think oh dear we are going to get back to the bottom a little sooner than id hoped then he came onto the belay. we had a little laugh then continued without further incident to the top.

In reply to Dek: Was that Doug Lang took that fall? if so I remember it well, not as well as you though! Same year I think that Cube held John Murphy on a full rope length fall on Hitchiker, 2 snarg and axe belay. I guess the things do work but like you give me a nut or a peg anyday (pbly the prejudice of middle age) I can still taste the fear of holding 16st of Chris Rice on a snarg belay and he was seconding.

In reply to roger webb:

Aye, your no far off 16st yoursel big boy.

Always liked the idea of Murphy goin back up for his tools, with gloves still insitu, the next week.

ha ha

In reply to roger webb: Yes Roger thats the man! he is past sixty now and still goin strong..i really dont know how he does it!1 BTW when i was sixteen stone iwas a lean machine..now ive chucked the scales away (mirrors next)
Seriously though the angles not too bad and he went down the slabs so that helped absorb the impact a bit, though i did have funny blue black lines down where i guess my tendons are, not unlike black stocking seams....kept away from the swimming for a while!
Dek

In reply to turfty: I'll have you know I'm only 14st15.99999ozs, in training for the Highland Cross, I get a 'Lardy Bloater" 3hr handicap start!

In reply to roger webb: Same weight as my boots!
Dek