UKC

Weird highland, wilderness experience: got the cable-car up the mountain. Got the chair-lift another few hundred metres. Walked for about half an hour to the summit. Maybe 200 climbers on top gearing up. Descended (descended!) to where the routes start, and did a few routes. Had to queue up a couple of times. By Midday there must have been 500 people on top. Snowboarders, skiers, climbers... There was even a couple getting married in long, white coats. There was techno blasting out; there were some Glaswegian lads who had built a bar out of snow and were selling bottles of Stella. Never seen anything like it. It was like a festival. Scottish wilderness experience, no. Loved it. Even my laziest friends are coming out of retirement just coz of Aonach Mor. Norrie, what is going on?

In reply to Steve Parker:

This must be a first for August.

In reply to Steve Parker:

I'm confused. Am I undergoing a Rip Van Winkle experience? Have I fallen asleep in August 2005 and woken up in January 2006?

In reply to Steve Parker:

Meanwhile those who had eschewed the circus and slogged up through the forest and valley sat outside their small tent below the West Face of Aonach Mor. The evening sun shone down on them, the cold wind whipped up the spindrift, they sat in solitude sipping on a brew. They could follow their foot marks in the snow (the only ones in the valley) up to the start of the route, trace the line to the summit and then over to their right the return marks coming down from the Mor/Beg col. It had been a good day.

Tomorrow would be a long one. Up early, back up to the Col, chop a way through the cornice into the corrie then skirt round to the start of North East Ridge. Then back down to the camp and the long walk out to the car park. It would then be a rest day as they travel to the North West with ambitious plans for long routes, long days and longer walk ins. And they say the spirit of adventure is being sacrificed for convenience, only for those lacking the imagination.

In reply to Steve Parker:

the only down side is the surliness from the gondola ticket sales team - "Climbers tickest are sold at 08.00 sharp, you ar eall supposed to be up then, not now " - at 08.30
you would have thought they did not want/need our money

fast overtaking Corrie n Schnechada (sp ?) as the place for the masses - means other places are now quiter

In reply to sandywilson: Hahahaha. Xmas comes early these days. Well, it's p***ing with rain outside and my thoughts have turned to winter. Sorry to raise your hopes Sandy van Winkle.

In reply to Steve Parker: one day steve

In reply to Steve Parker:

...... but the latest MWIS forecast (24/8/05 - http://www.mwis.org.uk/mountain/EH.PDF ) predicts for the Eastern Highlands on Thursday "above 1100m wet snow is likely at times".

A very false dawn, but builds the anticipation up for the new season!

In reply to grumpytramp: Wasn't a false dawn unless you were all dreaming of neve! Just a little recollection that I didn't get around to earlier. Anyway, rock is crap (coz it's raining): bring on the cold stuff!

In reply to Horse: hear hear

In reply to grumpytramp:


Sharpening my axes as we speak...

In reply to KeithW: If you get up there early (very early), you won't have to queue for Jetstream.

In reply to Horse:

I can't wait!!! Looking forward to lots of friday evening drives into the wilderness!

I was over at Aonach Mor last feb, on a Monday, saw 4 other climbers coming out of easy gully area.

I think itcould be a lot like the Peak, 2 charectors, Mid-Week Quiet and Weekend Circus.

In reply to Lancs Lad:


Does your wilderness have roads in it?

In reply to Rid Skwerr:

Only the Bits I drive in!

Obv a significant walk-in will follow the drive

In reply to Steve Parker: Aonach Mor has some gems but in general is mince and a bit of a death trap after SW/W/NW storms, Stob Coire an Laoigh is the place to go for the winter cragging style and top quality mixed climbing on vertical turfy quartzite. In fact you can see it from Aonach Mor. A large number of routes get stars and its only a 2 hour-ish walk-in and the crag bottom is at 1000m.

Since the new Ben guide was published there have been a significant number of quality additions to the crag, quite a few of them done in 2003, you can download them here:-

http://www.smc.org.uk/downloads/new%20climbs%202003.pdf

In reply to Steve Parker:

Choose to climb elsewhere, Scotland is a big place.

In reply to Erik B: 2 hour walk-in! Are you mad? I'm English for God's sake! I want a cable car and a hot-dog van!

In reply to Steve Parker: fair enough, dont say I didnt try.. theres so much more to Scotland than the Northern corries and Aonach Mor.. Laiogh is a fantastic addition to cimbing in Lochaber, up to you whether you sample its delights or not...

PS 2 hours isnt a long walk-in and its an easy gentle walk-in at that

In reply to Erik B:

Spoken like a tiger and not a sheep Eck.

In reply to Erik B: Only joking. 2 hour walk-in sounds okay as long as it's totally flat or downhill. I especially like the gentle bit you mention. Only joking - I don't mind a hike. I wasn't actually complaining about the Aonach Mor roadshow, it just completely took me by surprise. It was especially busy that w/e as there was just about nowhere else climbable. Fort William was a little clear spot surrounded by blizzards. But you are absolutely right and I will try and get to more obscure places. Difficult to explore when you have limited time and knowledge of the area, so only been to reliable, well-known locations - Northern Corries, Ben, Glen Coe etc. Cheers for the tip.

In reply to Steve Parker: best bet is to give laiogh a chance to come into nick, the turf takes a while to freeze, but the crags are very exposed to northerlies and perhaps a NE or NW wind is best as it will scour the cliffs more than a northerly. So in other words it wont come in as quickly as the NC's but is definetly a tail- end early season choice. Also the good thing about it is you cant really climb on it unless the turf is bomber as it is so steep, if you do you do so at your own peril! It can also take a lot of ice, the first year it was developed there were times when it was plastered in thin ice and neve, one of the perks of it being on the west rather than gorms..

In reply to Steve Parker:

Even in some of those popular areas it is possible to escape and find some solitude. Aonach Mor West face can be good and I don't recall ever seeing the climbs on Aonach Beg mobbed. Both are accessible from the Gondola. If you avoid Corrie Nan Lochan one can still escape the hordes even in Glen Coe.

In reply to Horse: Bad w/e in Glen Coe a couple of years ago. Nothing in condition so headed up to do Curved Ridge as a last resort/easy option. Everyone in the whole world and his 3 dogs had done the same. Including several guides with clients who complained all the time about us soloing past them. Must have been 300 people doing Curved Ridge. Bloody dangerous actually, coz people get caught up in the atmosphere and banter and forget what they are doing. One guy took a fall on the descent as he was too busy having a laugh to pay attention. Fortunately he was okay.
But I appreciate the info as local knowledge is what I am lacking. Cheers guys.

In reply to Steve Parker: one of the fascinating things about scottish winter is that in a small area conditions can vary greatly and each crag or hill requires different conditions and weather patterns, last year the southern highlands were brilliant, whereas many other areas where poor, and the southern highlands are relatively low, you just need to sniff the conditions out, makes the game so much more rewarding having this variety factor.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Curve Ridge, I remember this a while back. The weather had got very warm and humid and like you say every man and his dog were heading up there. We were late starting and on the way up through the damp cloud most parties were heading down. We stuck with it and had a fantastic day culminating in popping out of the clag on the top pitch and reaching the summit to a collection of Broken Spectres. A few others on the top and a bit of a party spirit was abroad. Fine day.

I may be wrong on this one but another alternative in Glen Coe is to go into Corrie Nam Beith and/or continue up to the higher corrie and the Church Door Buttress area on Bidean.

In reply to Erik B:

You are of course right but it can be a bit of a p*sser if you play the hunches and get it wrong only to be told in the pub that night by everyone else they had been to X and had a fantastic day. X of course was your Plan B!!!!

In reply to Horse: aye the top crags of bidean round church door buttress are in nick loads, super exposed to the elements and high up

In reply to Erik B: That's what makes it so damn difficult when you live 5 hours from Glen Coe. You have to more or less ignore the weather forecast and drive up hoping to find something. Then you waste a lot of time trying to get some info about conditions in different areas etc. This is what makes English visitors sitting ducks in Scotland. Half the time they are so frustrated that they are going to head out even in marginal conditions just because they have driven all that way and haven't got any time to hang around. Plus half of them can't navigate and can only handle being in busy areas anyway. Boy, I have seen some stupid goings-on!
For real stupidity though, you have to go to the lakes, where every di**head with a car and a mobile phone thinks he is suddenly a mountaineer. I have been asked on several occasions 'How do you get down, mate?' 'Which way did you come up?' I asked. 'Up that path there,' they replied. One group of Americans even asked me 'Is this the way to the top?' I was sitting next to the summit cairn. 'Can you see anything higher?' I asked. Then they asked me how to get back to their car. Like I knew where their car was.

In reply to Steve Parker: you have to love the shell suit crew!

In reply to Steve Parker: theres quite a few sheffield, geordie, cumbrian and yorkshire teams who drive ridiculous distances and find the nick, even in the NW, respect!

In reply to Steve Parker: Look what Fowler achieved from a southern base?

In reply to Iain Ridgway: Fowler's trips are obviously legendary, but what isn't normally taken into account is the amount of wasted weekends he had too. I went to a talk he gave about that period. But sure, commitment like that will pay off. He didn't have much else going on in his life at the time as I recall. I've got a kid and commitments and time away is rare and precious.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Likewise. Go with no agenda and take whatever is on offer, there are few wasted days if you approach it in the right way.

In reply to Horse: Yeah, you're bang on. There's nothing wrong with hillwalking in the rain if there's nothing else available. Kind of leave your agenda at Gretna and see what comes up.

In reply to Steve Parker:

"Aonach Mor, the future of ice climbing!"

hardly.

its just the alp-isation of the scottish wilderness and scottish winter climbing.

i dont really like Aonach Mor(i was there twice this season). but then again i dont really like the alps either. its got a lot to do with all the people.

like was said above if you look hard and think about it a bit then you can happly find places where people dont climb as often. we climbed itailan climb this year and watch no less that 15 teams climb the curtain.

and dont hide behind the "ive got to travel futher than you" nonsence. we go to glen etive or glen nevis for the day because its worth the effort (leave ED 8am- arrive back 6pm). you could get allmost anywhere in scotland for a good weekend if you live on mainland uk

bugaboos anyone?

In reply to Steve Parker: If you have a car walking in the rain can be avoided, we were out every weekend almost, for two years, and rarely walked in the rain, in Scotland the weather varies regionally, you just have to have contingency plans and watch the weather.

I normally planned a few weekends each weekend, generally somewhere was dry.

In reply to Rob Reglinski: I think you are forgetting finances, even going out from Glasgow every weekend wasn't cheap.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

maybe true but you dont get out every weekend if you coming from surrey, its like every other weekend (keeps the nonclimbers happy too)

if you get 4 in a car then the petrol cost comes down majorly.

need advice on cheap climbing weekends. speak to the students

In reply to Rob Reglinski: Yeah, we only go out as two as we are people phobes.

Here the hut system makes the weekends very cheap.

In reply to Rob Reglinski: Not hiding behind anything, geezer, just the reality of living 5 hr drive from Glen Coe and being a parent. You have to go up the night before. If the conditions are marginal and you don't have local knowledge you can waste a lot of time. I've also had plenty of hits, obviously, even in poor conditions. Tower Ridge in a hurricane and a blizzard was a good one, although my mate dropped one of MY axes down Glover's Chimney and nearly creamed some guy coming up. Why my axe and not his? As for AM, the future of Ice Climbing? Are you sure it's not? Seems to be a slow but sure drive to make the hills more accessible. Cairngorm etc. I think we can expect more of the same, in a limited way, anyway.

In reply to Steve Parker:

i hate what theve done to caringrom and loch lomand. i wish we could go back to private ownership and leave the hills the way they are.(do we really need jenners by the shore side!!!!!!!)
if we keep going its gonig to be like yosemite where climbers are between hippys and bears and we are only alowed 2 weeks stay for crowd control

(yes sir thats 20 quid park entrance, you cant park your car there you have to move it and take the shuttles, sorry the path to the lost valley is closed becasue its too wet and dangerous, sorry you can put your tent there you have use the camp grounds)

i have a pic of when i was 4 on top of lochnager and the place has changed so much in 16 years

Rob

In reply to Steve Parker: Don't miss Erik's earlier point about watching forecasts and thinking about areas such as the Southern Highlands. Last winter I had great days on the Brack, Beinn Udlaidh, Meall Bhuidhe (nr. Achaladair), Beinn Dothaidh and Ben Lui. All usually when things further north either weren't in such good nick or were in pretty bad weather. All of the above could save you a couple of hours driving in to the bargain. In the past we've even chosen to head south to nr. Moffat and do routes down there because anything further north was getting hit by a storm.

Best of luck. Wilf.

In reply to Wilf: Yeah, want to check out the Southern Highlands. Normally just drive straight past in the dark heading for the same old honeypots like everyone else. Any good winter stuff on the Cobbler BTW?

In reply to Steve Parker:

yes but you need the right weather system becasue its low and near the sea

In reply to Horse: Wow! I'm inspired. What grades we talking? Look about 4ish? 5? Hard to tell from pics obviously and a lot of variation possible on the Croc by the looks of it. Good man. This is what I need!

In reply to Steve Parker: I'm no Cobbler expert, but the answer is an emphatic yes.

You do have to pick your route/conditions well for the Cobbler though as it's relatively low and effectively south facing. Frost to freeze the turf; say followed by some snow from the N/NW and a thaw to consolidate the snow; followed by some more frost; then climb on a day with the cloud base at 3000ft so the sun doesn't strip the routes would probably be ideal (but you'd get away with the turf being well frozen plus a dusting). However, if you get all of the above except the day you want to climb isn't sunny you can head round the corner to the Brack (mostly east facing) or Beinn an Lochain (spl?) (mostly north facing).

Get the guidebook if you haven't got it (Arran, Arrocahar and the Southern Highlands), and think about what the conditions are doing for the week or so before you head up and vary your choice to fit. Not far away and with just a (longish) cold spell and no snow you've got the water ice of Eas Anie or Beinn Udlaidh.

The routes don't tend to be as long as places like the Ben obviously, but that and the location can make good choices if you're on the way up or down or if a front's coming in and you're trying to beat it.

In reply to Horse:


The Scottish Portland?

In reply to Rid Skwerr:

Naughty, I believe bolt croppers are optional

In reply to Wilf: Never climbed on turf. Quite a bit of ice and mixed. Can you trust it? Obviously you can, but I'd be a bit tentative to start with just coz it's unfamiliar stuff.

In reply to Steve Parker: Turf, if well frozen can be amazing good for both placements and pro (warthogs etc.), if you've done much in Scotland you've probably relied on it without knowing. It's not just a case of a good frost though, it definitely helps if the turf was wet before freezing or goes through a few cycles. Stob Coire an Laoigh for example, mentioned by someone above has routes relying on steep turf (if you search for photo's there'll probaly be some). As usual, start with a route you feel comforatble with in what you think are the right conditions and get a feel for it.

In reply to Steve Parker:
Even my laziest friends are coming out of retirement just coz of Aonach Mor. Norrie, what is going on?

Dear Steve

I am too young to climb on Aonach Mor, when I get old I will go there.

Norrie

In reply to Horse:

What Grade is that Ridge on Aonach beag?

In reply to Steve Parker:

Dear Steve

There are good routes on the Cobbler and the Brack, well worth the short walks. Mind you, the routes are short.

Norrie

In reply to Lancs Lad:

NE Ridge of Aonach Beag is Grade III, not far short of 500m long I think.

In reply to Lancs Lad:

Seem to recall the guidbook saying something about it being wild and in a remote setting too, sounds like a fantastic day out.

In reply to DougG:

Im thinking on similar lines, wonder of anyone has done it??

In reply to DougG:

Give it a couple of years: Winter M2, Summer D2.
1000m rope required to lower off.

In reply to Lancs Lad:

From memory it finishes on the summit so take a flag, St Georges cross should do nicely.

In reply to Horse:

Since he'll be living the expat life he'll probably have a native bearer in Aberdeen who could come along to carry the flag. Winning hearts and minds and all that. A pith helmet might be a bit chilly in winter mind.

In reply to Rid Skwerr:

You may be onto something...... what with all the un-employment up there etc etc

In reply to Rid Skwerr:

True, DougG lives over that way perhaps he could be persuaded to do the honours with the flag and give a rousing rendition of God Save The Queen.

In reply to Horse:

He'd certainly top my list of likely St Georges bearers.

Or something...........

In reply to Steve Parker: Stuart the Postie can comment on the Cobbler as hes done nearly every winter route there, more than anyone else I know, and nearly up there with Rab Anderson I would imagine.

my experience of it is limited, but it offers short but intense technical mixed climbing, pretty unique. Norrie's route Northwall Groove is a must, and a hard V in modern conditions of no ice and just snow. According to the postie, if Arran has snow on it(he can see arran from his house), then the cobbler should be in nick. Beinn an Lochain has some good climbing on it and is higher up so in nick quite often and a really nice short walk-in up the right skyline ridge from the rest and be thankful. monolith grooves is the classic of the crag and a good wee route. The Brack looks brilliant, but Ive never seen it in nick when ive been up in Arrochar unfortunately.

In reply to Steve Parker:

If Aonach Mor is the future of ice climbing I'm taking up golf.

Fortunately I think the future of ice climbing is one of some climbers seeking wilderness and variety while others cue up to climb hacked-up trade routes in an avalanche-prone death trap.

In reply to Steve Parker: All this talk of lovely ice and climbing has prompted me to book some ridulously cheap flights from Southampton to Glasgow in November & January - fantastic value, the tickets were only 54p each!!! £1.08p return (plus £40 is rip-off taxes).

In reply to Horse:


What do you take me for, a Rangers fan?

In reply to DougG:

Do you really want me to answer that?

In reply to DougG: clean your mouth out!

In reply to Wilf: Cheers for that. I think I'd be doing about Grade 3 on turf to get the idea.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Well, Steve, a bit of hillwalking pays dividends. I've got a couple of grade IV/ V waterfalls to do this winter, unclimbed as yet. A bit higher and a bit more scenic than Easy Annie. It's great to be in a country where new lines don't just equal boulder problems.

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:
I've got a couple of grade IV/ V waterfalls to do this winter, unclimbed as yet.

Where might they be then, God? Map references would be good. Hee hee...

In reply to Steve Parker:

As they say in Paisley, 'Get it right up ye'.
read the SMC book next year!

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre: That's it I am following you everywhere you go. I'll whup you with a frozen haggis when you get near a waterfall, then claim it.

In reply to Horse: Coire nam Beith is always quieter than coire nan lochan, don't know why coz the routes are 3 times as long on stob coire nam beith, 3 times more climbing for less walking, ideal. I did cleftweave and summit gully last winter, both were fun and long.

I walked to the base of the NE ridge of aonach beag last winter from glen nevis, it would be fine normally but there was a big storm on so we were up to our knees in powder for most of the way. It is definitely the way to do the route though, walk all the way, I want to go back this year.

In reply to the OP.

It is well possible to get many good routes done in weekend trips to scotland, I go from sheffield about 4 times a winter, I just keep a selection of weekends free and go on whichever ones the nick is good somewhere. After a few seasons you get a feel for which weather patterns bring which cliffs into nick. My sucess rate last winter was about 75%, the year before similar and the year before that too.

I have less sucess when pre-booking trips more in advance, then you are into the realm of pot luck regarding the conditions and being willing to drive from 1 side of scotland to the other is essential.

In reply to MattG:


Somewhat less reliable though, from what I've observed.

In reply to Jamie B.: I suppose you're right thinking about it, I've climbed in good conditions in coire nan lochain when coire nam beith has not been in, but there's always the cliffs under the top of bidean, they must be reliable.

Im looking forward to the winter already

In reply to MattG:


They are, but most of the routes are quite hard, particularly without ice build-up. West Chimney is a cracker by all accounts; I'm keen to get on it this season.

In reply to Jamie B.:
Climbed West Chimney a couple of seasons ago and didn't have any ice on it. The tunnel pitch however seems to be blocked. I couldn't push my helmet through, never mind my sack or not too tubby body. There wasn't much snow so I couldn't dig out more and to the best of my knowledge couldn't find another tunnel.

There is a wide crack on the right, go up this to a small ledge, a long reach and moves left leads to easier ground at the tunnel exit and continue as normal.

We emailed Andy Nisbet about this afterwards and he knew nothing about this. I would like to know if anyone else has found this so?

The route is still well worth doing and by including this variation, possibly lives up to its grade 5?

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the postie:

I don't have a problem with soft Vs, in fact if you would care to suggest any other giveaways?

In reply to Stuart the postie:

We did West Chimney last March or thereabouts. The tunnel pitch was narrow but passable. I managed to break a gear lop in the process - could have been expensive if I hadn't been in a cave at the time, but then again it probably wouldn't have broken if I hadn't been thrutching up the cave...

The conditions were good - not much snow but tonnes of hoar. The entrance to the tunnel was pretty easy to spot in the wall immediately L of the first belay.

Neil

In reply to ngadams: good that the postie found a variation as the tunnel pitch is a piece of nonsense really and a waste of energy and sweat with all that rabbit-like burrowing which is required. Good to add some technical climbing to the route rather than just Raeburns chimney.

In reply to Erik B:

I actually really enjoyed the tunnel pitch. I admit it's not exactly difficult but it's good fun and definitely a bit out of the ordinary.

Neil

In reply to ngadams:
You must be skinnier than me or less claustrophobic, well done.

Stuart

In reply to Jamie B.:
Savage Slit, Hadrians Wall.

In reply to ngadams:
Agreed, it's a strange wee pitch and good to hear that's it's not blocked after all. If you liked it, try Crypt Route, the tunnel pitch on it is similiar but narrower and a lot longer. Myself and a good pal did both routes the same weekend about ten years ago (think it was '96). Conditions were amazing with a lot of ice about, and we felt that Crypt Route was by far the better and harder of the two.
Trying to think of other strange pitches like that, have you done Scorpion (on Carn Etchachan)? It's another one where you can climb up the outside instead, but it seems a shame to miss out on the good old thrutching (I had to take my helmet off on it, and thought i'd have to take my harness off at one point, i was so well wedged in).
There's a route in Arrochar, McLaren's Chimney which is another 'into the bowels of the earth' weirdo as well.

In reply to Stac Pollaidh:

In a moment of stupidity / ambition / hung-overedness, I tried Crypt Route at the end of my first proper winter season. Took me an hour and a half of blood, sweat and brown trousers to lead the first pitch, then backed off. It was just too difficult for me at the time, although I fancy going back and having another crack at it now that I'm a bit more experienced.

We were planning to go over and try Scorpion (and a couple of other routes in the Loch A'an basin) last winter but thought better of it in atrocious weather and dubious conditions. Next time...

In reply to ngadams: were we?!?!?! so you had other ideas up your sleeve eh!!!!!

In reply to andyinglis:

Was it not your mate who had said that the top pitch of Scorpion was pretty much impossible in duff conditions? If it wasn't you then it was Junior. Either way, it was a bit out of the question at that point.

Really want a wee trip over there this year to do Deep Cut Chimney, Route Major, Sticil Face...

In reply to Stuart the postie:


Didn't find the former particularly easy but agree it'd be hard to hurt yourself on it.

Your assesment of Hadrian's has been backed up by friends. Any more?

In reply to Stuart the postie:

I found the only grade 5 pitch on this route to be the little corner above the great arch, it's also the crux of Crypt route.

In reply to estivator:
I would agree that this is the only real pitch on the route. My wee variation to the tunnel pitch is certainly more strenious and thinner (possibly a move of tech 7).

Stuart

In reply to Jamie B.:
To me grade V is a serious route. Savage Slit although sustained (6) not serious because gear everywhere.

Western Route is easy for the grade if given V,6
Shelr Route (Buchaille) is easy for the grade if given IV or V

At the end of the day I think grade V means different things to different people.

In reply to Stuart the postie:

My God, there are some squatters living in my derelict thread! Black Bob noticed a plume of smoke, so I came up to investigate. Ah well, just don't burn the floorboards, guys!

In reply to Steve Parker: aye, the pitch above the arch is the crux and aka raeburns chimney after the FA in summer, god knows why as it isnt a chimney! tricky though and I wouldnt like to fall off over the arch, just as well theres a good hex at the bottom of the corner, MIGHT just stop this happening! the rest of the route is about IV 5.

Postie, I dont know, savage slit is a V in my opinion, as you well know conditions in the lochain are quite often verglassy and therefore making routes more serious despite all the cracks and the length of the routes. Mind you, Ive always thought Fallout Corner is V 7! but there wasnt too much of a verglas problem on it when I did it. Auricle and Houdini are both a full grade harder whatever it is. I agree, Western Route doesnt deserve V, a hard IV 6 early season. What do you reckon to Stirling Bomber being upgraded to VI? I reckon its a V, but one of the harder V's about.

In reply to Erik B:
I haven't done Stirling Bomber so I don't know. I've done the first pitch of Conundrum as you already know and I thought it was desprate, harder than Hookers.

Coronary Bypass V,7 I did with Andy and thought it was only a few moves up a short corner. I've seen it given VI,7 in a picture with Alan Mullen from a Troll catalogue.

I guess you could say both SB and Con are harder than other V,7's but they are still short so I think V is ok.

This all goes back to a descussion we had a few years ago and we still haven't come up with an answer.

Finally Crest Route V,6 in Stob Coire is much more sustaied than Chimney Route Vi,6, should we then change these?

It's all really pointless anyway, grades are only an overall indication of any particular route.

Enough talk, I wish it would hurry up and snow.

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the postie:
Exactly. What are winter grades based on anyway? The grade on the day of the first ascent? The hardest it's likely to get? The easiest? The average? I've only rarely done a winter route that was about right for the grade, but that's probably coz I'm always driving up from Yorkshire and having to do routes in whatever condition I find them as I have no time to wait around. One of the earliest winter routes I did was Raven Crag Gully in the Lakes, and some of it was about VI on verglassed rock with no protection, instead of III, which is the guidebook grade. Almost died several times. Good day out though, once I'd got up!

In reply to Stuart the postie: I totally agree, but its good to talk about these things at this time of year! Coronary Bypass is never VI, V 7 is fine as the difficulties are so short lived. A block was ripped off at the crux by Nisbet who was seconding it with Dave McG before I led it, it is bolder now, but I managed to wobble a knife blade in at the scar, but this was maybe body weight only. Crest Route is definitely a V, dont understand why VI keeps getting mentioned.

I wish it would hurry up and snow too.

In reply to Erik B:
Why do you think Chimney Route warrents a VI when Crest Route is technically as hard but more sustained. Any thoughts?

In reply to Steve Parker: Generally winter routes are graded for the conditions on the FA. If over time those conditions prove unlikely to be recreated/infrequent the grade may change to reflect "average " conditions. You use your judgement to decide whether a route is climbable at the guide book grade, easier or harder.

Iain

In reply to Stuart the postie: a VI 6 in my eyes is a relatively bold route, crest route isnt, so has well protected tech 6 climbing (albeit lots of tech 6) so V 6 is fair.

In reply to Jamie B.:


Point Five Gully.

In reply to Erik B:

I keep on saying it, scrap the tech grade...

My email's up the spout. When's a good time to catch you on t'phone?

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:

I only hear from Erik when he's in deafening pubs, so when the phone goes and there's a total incomprehensible racket you'll know that it's that Northern loonie with the chimp's arse...
; )

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run: ill send you a text with my desk phone number

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:

Don't forget me Dave.

Mick