UKC

I do worry sometimes about the anchors I see people using at crags....I was wondering what is the worst people have seen?

Personally I've seen one guy using an earth "thread" as his solitary anchor for a top-rope, and also seen a guy using a solitary anchor which was a rock moveable by hand (I'd considered and dismissed it about an hour earlier as entirely unusable as it was a smallish rock (call it a foot cubed) that was just resting on the ground.).

Also, if you see someone using something that you consider dodgy, do you tell them?

In reply to John_Hat:

My 'mate' on a single warthog belay in soft snow on Left Twin. Psychological belay, I thought.

In reply to John_Hat:

My own 'bomber' massive spike belay used on Lliwedd backed up with two non-nut placements. My mate arrived at the belay pulled on the spike and it nearly came off.

In reply to John_Hat:

The worst I've seen (although you'd be hard pushed to call it an anchor!) was a bloke at Hobson Moor Quarry who had his 10 year old son tied to a car tow rope whilst he lay at the top with his hands dangling over the edge holding the rope in case his son fell.

In reply to John_Hat:

Fresh Air!!!

Aonoach Mor, someone belaying second, standing on cornice, no anchor!

In reply to John_Hat:
Stick with me on this one, a semi tensioned line between to points, plum horizontal above 3 pebble slab. I tried to poin out if either of them failed, they'd be shagged (weren't fantastic placements either) but they failed to understand.
"I've got two points though!"
"Yes, but if either of them fail so does the whole system"
"But I've got 2 points though"
well not really, perhaps if you detensioned the line put a knot in middle attached a beener then the top rope would stand a chance, "
"but I've got 2 points"

"PHYSICS????"

"But I've . . . ."

oh sod it you're on your own!

In reply to John_Hat:
Whilst at hawkcliff, there were a couple of kids with no idea of a safe belay, trying to set one up of a dead tree-trunk wedged (read 'lying') in a crack, I think one of them might have even abbed off it. We lent them a sling so they could belay off a decent-sized living tree.

I think they had borrowed the gear from one of their dads, not sure if he knew how they were using it.

In reply to John_Hat:
a gorse bush (honest)

In reply to John_Hat:

I climbed a 7 pitch route on the Peñon de Ifach that ends right on the summit, where the trig point should be used as a final belay. The girl from my club with whom I was climbing (for the first time) had demostrated solid rope work through out, but after leading the last pitch decided there was no point of setting up an anchor and just sat down.
I decided to try out some alternative moves to the easy finish, as I felt save with rope from above. I couldn't believe my eyes when I got to the top. She only weights about 60% of my own body weight as well, so we would have found ourselves 200m lower, had I come off.

In reply to John_Hat:

fave work based one was a guy in full body harness, back attachment point tied into 30ft of blue polyprop (read more static than static!) with a loop in the other end thrown over one of the protruding forks on a JCB bucket. workin/Standing on cliff edge Excellent!

Again tried to point it out, no use shouldn't have bothered

In reply to John_Hat:

Saw a Toppy set up at Burbage North, gear part of anchors seemed fine, however they used such a long sling, it came 1/3 of way down face of climb!

In reply to phatlad:

I've only intervened twice. Once was where someone was about to climb with his harness on upside down, and the other was the guy with the moveable rock belay mentioned above.

The thing was, it looked like a decent spike. It was only when you actually tested it you realised it was more or less just resting on the sand...

In reply to John_Hat: A sky hook on a hanging belay, the gear on the rest of the pitch was sawn off logs sat on a tiny ledge with a cam on top against a roof. He is still alive btw.

In reply to phatlad:

I'm with you Though by the standards of some of the other replies on this thread (Fresh Air? Gorse Bush?) they had, in comparison, a bomber system...

In reply to John_Hat:

honest a gorse bush i could not believe it or the fact that the bloke ignored me when i pointed out a bloody big boulder nr by!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to John_Hat:

In my younger days I was tied off to a rotten fence post when I was taking a long time seconding a route. It's the scariest top-out I've ever done. I now take an inordinate amount of interest in the people belaying me.

In reply to sandywilson:

sounds like the belays at rivelin for the face routes. Take a rope to a rotten fence post about 10 metres back, tie off as near to the ground as possible, repeat with other rope and dont sit too near the edge
p

In reply to pigeonjim:

One sees a fair amount of anchors set up in the Peak, which are safe, but could be better. Small cracks and cam placements near the edge are snapped up fast, whilst Large boulders and solid threads further back are ignored.

In reply to John_Hat:

Aberdeen sea cliffs, after climbing some vertical grass at the top of the route my mate belayed to a fence post and a tussock of grass. He told me that the post was a bit iffy. I walked over to it and gave it a shoogle, it just crumbled bits in a rotten heap. I'd have used the same mind you. Wonder why he shouted to me not to come off...

In reply to John_Hat: Anchor butter spreadable

In reply to Lancs Lad:

aye fair enough it is the peak!!! but a bush. a thin manky bush with the breaking strain of a womble's pubes

In reply to Lancs Lad:


I've seen belays set up with 20m of rope and no allowance made for rope stretch. When I mentioned it in passing all I got was a blank stare.

In reply to sandywilson:

Also seen this, someone actually fell on it and the rope stretched so much Belayer was moved from stance.

I believe Lessons learnt on that one. I wasnt aware that the stakes were so far back.

Next time we visit that crag, we wil take some Static rope with us.

In reply to John_Hat:

Top-rope party at Burbage North: Single anchor was a sling around a smallish, rounded boulder; with potential for slipping upwards as soon as the weight was off the rope.

Worst one I've done myself recently, was a H-U-G-E spike I dropped a sling around; then sat back onto as my leader started climbing. It moved. But that was The Alps, so it doesn't count. (Does it?!)

In reply to John_Hat:

My favorite was a sling over a decent sized & solid spike. Unfortunately, the spike pointed, almost horizontally but slightly downwards, in direction that any pull would have come from. So had the belay been loaded, the sling would have pulled straight off!

Given I'd just been belayed off it, yes, I told him. And set up my own anchor to bring up the third person....

Next day, he repeated the performance by belaying off a 'thread' - formed by a small slab, easily moveable by hand, balanced against a wall. Haven't climbed with him again!

In reply to John_Hat:
Was relatively recently told "Climb when ready and don't fall off!". When I got to the top I discovered that the belay consisted of my intrepid leader sitting on the smooth turf with his feet braced against a pile of small stones. This was the only available belay in a sea of smooth turf . . . walking off, we found a local-style belay which consisted of a small pit dug into the turf with two indentations in the front edge for one's feet.

(Probably a good case for (a) carrying a couple of warthogs and a hammer and (b) the placement of belay stakes.)

In reply to Richard Horn:


Yeah, those seem to be quite common on Lliwedd

K

In reply to John_Hat:
Actually on a less conventional note - there were a couple of climbers in leeds whose bathroom door kept getting jammed. This happened to one of the climbers who then got his mate to throw up his rope which he put around the pedestal under the sink. Apparently when he leant back out of the window the rope slipped between the pedestal and the sink and he ended on his arse in the street.

In reply to Wingnut: The worst I've seen was at the top of Yong at the Roaches, where they guy guy looped a sling around a thin rock shield on the boulder behind the ledge. Unfortunately the shield is on the vertical, almost perpendicular to the ledge, so unsurprisingly the sling slipped off, whereupon he attempted to re-attach it while bringing up his second. I have no idea why someone would attempt to use such a worthless anchor, when there is bomber gear to hand.

In reply to pigeonjim:

I remember a guy in the peaks who asked me for help setting up a belay for his heavy partner. He was faffing around with microwires a couple of feet from the top of the crag. I just said to him "how long's the rope?" "60m" he replies. I take and end of the rope, walk back 20m, round a 5000 ton boulder (think size of a house), and back to him.

Oh, and, even then, I did back it up

His second reaches the top, looks at the belay, comments "well, THAT's going nowhere".

I find the thing with a lot of people and anchors is they fail to think big enough!!

In reply to Wingnut:

Some years ago we were new-routing on the Lleyn to the North of Cilan Main and I got the last pitch which consisted of about 10m of rock followed by a loose band of shale, followed by a couple of hundred metres of steepish grass slopes. As my mate called out "10m left", I found myself in the midst of a 40 degree field with the only "feature" being a sheep scrape a few metres away. So I sat in that and took in the rope.

This act of stupidity was overshadowed by the sight of another friend walking past me across the slope carrying an inflatable dinghy in order to get to the foot of a route!

Bob

In reply to John_Hat:

I was at my local crag messing around with a shunt and I got talking to a guy who was there bouldering, and he asked if I wanted to do a couple of routes with him he said that he climbed about VS so I said yes. I thought to my self that not knowing him Id lead a relatively easy route and see how he copes before trusting him. All was fine he seemed strong and he lead the next route, he got to the top and was there for about 10 seconds when he shouted down “ok come on up” I thought I had heard him wrong, I still had him on belay so shouted up are “are you safe” he mumbled something and said “yeah sure”. Anyway to cut a long story short I climbed the route and found him standing at the top with no belay. When I explained the flaw in his technique he shrugged his shoulders and said “ahh it’ll be alright”

Its enough to say that I did not climb with him again.

In reply to John_Hat: My mate using himself. He forgot to anchor in. Fortunately, his mum is a brilliant climbing and didn't come off.

In reply to John_Hat:

Me sitting in an arse sized hole 300 ft up a slab in the Cairngorm with a Moac been the hole edge an a tuft of heather ... all there was .. glad my mate did'nt slip .. or the same mate belaying me couple of hundred feet up on the Rosa slabs from a small gritty ledge .. no belay at all at all. Sometimes better to know there's nuffink rather than beleive an illusion!

In reply to John_Hat: Corbys crag, A plant, not much more than 12" in height and 1" in width. With a root system only as deep as the crag lay, 2". And the guy was right over the edge of the face. LOL. gota laugh at these people. He was trying to lecture these 2 girls in mountain safety and all the misshaps he's witnessed in his time. I thought it wasvery funny. Infact my mate was having to distract me to remember I had him on a belay as I was just waiting with my moby to call the ambulance.

In reply to John_Hat:

A friend was belaying off a thin quartz thread, when a certain Mr J Dunne appeard at the top of the route, took one look at his belay, said 'That's hopeless!!', and carried on up the cliff.

In reply to John_Hat:

On two occasions I've had to point out to people that they had clipped their belay to their gear loop.

I've had a few "it's horrible but it's all there is" belays.

<shudder>

John

In reply to Moacs:

It's strange, isn't it - in my mind, those don't figure in my memory as the "worst" belays, as, however scary, they were the best in the circumstances. The ones I remember are the use of a dreadful belay, whilst a few feet away there was something bomb-proof!

In reply to John_Hat:

Someone belaying a mate up a sea cliff. He had clipped into a stake, but via his gear loop.

Told him that it wasn't a good idea and that gear loops were only rated to 5kg, but he said it would be OK.

Thank god (?) for evolution.

In reply to John_Hat:

I once saw a fisherman, only use one V-anchor instead of two at 180 degree angles, his boat was thrown all over the place that night. Terrible

In reply to Marts:

A plant, not much more than 12" in height and 1" in width

Sounds like the abb station at dumbie

In reply to John_Hat:

A poor anchor does not neccessarily mean an unsafe belay.

Mark

In reply to Carolyn:

I agree. So far, given I do little multi-pitch and I'm quite happy to wander all over the place to find a bomber belay, I havent ever been in the situation where I've had to reply on dodgy belays - there's always summat even if you have to spend 10 mins looking for it.

But its when people use something god-awfully dodgy when, as you say, a few feet away there's an anchor from heaven (like the lad and his microwires), it makes me shudder.

I am wondering how I would feel (partly the reson for this thread) if I saw a dodgy belay, said nothing, and then the climber and belayer vanished over the edge to their deaths - I think I'd feel like I had blood on my hands...

In reply to Anonymous:

I'm not going to argue the point, as I'm not sure what direction you're coming from, but I think you'd probably agree that a good anchor makes a safer belay (all other things equal) than a dodgy one.

Like stated above, its where people, with more good anchors than you can shake a stick at, choose the dodgy earth thread or the anchor-I-can-lift-by-hand, or, for that matter and referencing replies above, the "fresh air" method.

In reply to John_Hat:

canyoning when i was at school we abbed of a submerged stick wedged in a crack that had a pice of tat tied to it....said stick couldn't have been more than 2cm in diameter.

in Oz to retreat of a climb that has machine bolt instead of fixed hangers you tie a piece of tat around the bolts head....which is called a hero loop....saw someone use this to get down but they'd only puled half the rope through before the loop melted from the friction.

also heard about people having to abb off their bootlaces due either runningout of slings or just being stingy.

In reply to Anonymous:

A good Anchor doest neccesarily mean a safe belay, its only 1 item in a system.

In reply to Anonymous:

Dear Anonymous

Aye, poor climbers make unsafe belays.

Norrie

In reply to Lancs Lad:

Gotcha. Agreed. i.e. someone with a good anchor belaying off, say, their gear loop

That what you mean?

In reply to Norrie Muir:

It depends how deep you bury them.

In reply to John_Hat:


Yes, I can't argue with that.


All I'm saying is that the "fresh air" method can be quite effective, and reasonably safe given a good stance, particularly if the alternative is to waste time searching around for a poor anchor.

I totally agree with you about people who avoid good anchors, which is just pointless.

Mark

In reply to John_Hat:

or not tieing in correctly, not being attentive, having some dodgy rope system in place etc, even belaying in the wrong place.

Ive been climbing with a youngster, good climber, but hes only just learning to lead and set belays. He places anchors solidly, but sometimes there not in the line of pull etc, he always tries to fit cams, and ignores bomber boulders and threads, but hes learning

I dont think its easy to set quick, safe belays and its something one develops over time.

In reply to Lancs Lad:

I agree.

In reply to John_Hat: I climbed up to a partner who had tied a tiny sling round a flower once as our only anchor -as a joke. I could see how he thought it was funny. =:<

In reply to johnnyhz:
Poor flower. So delicate and fragile, doomed to a firey death in the hell-spawned crucible.

In reply to John_Hat:

My top 3:

1)Second belay on Mousetrap at Gogarth: a sling around a wide horizontal cristaline spike comming out of the sandy stone.

2)My partner's belay: first inch of a warthog in frozen-but-dry turf and a wire hammered against a blind crack on a climb I forgotten the name (plexus, Taxus?) in the Southern Highlands

3) My partner's bum parked on the path 20m from the edge of the crag while I seconded Wings of Unreason, Roaches Skyline.

A.-

In reply to johnnyhz:

What kind of flower was it? As I understand it daisies are better than dandelions cos if you lean off a daisy you won't push it up!

In reply to Lancs Lad:

Do you reckon there is a heirachy of good anchors e.g.

Bomber slinged boulder/spike
Thread
Large Hex
Nuts
cams
Directional nuts/cams
Cam in a rabbit hole

?

In reply to John_Hat:

open 'biner, tensioned like a skyhook over a pocket on Arran garnite

In reply to Lancs Lad:

yep like how many folk would be belaying with the wrong hands: http://www.chetwynd.info/other/belaying.htm

In reply to Lbos:

Trig point.

In reply to John_Hat: John Leslie on Channel 5 News is pretty useless.

In reply to ArnaudG:


Is there anything else up there to use? I remember looking at it last year and making a mental note to bring my own belay stake!

In reply to John_Hat: I've sat on a bench on top of the Clifton Suspension Bridge. Very comfortable it was too.

In reply to Sean_J: You can set up a tensioned line along the edge of the crag and sit with your legs hooked under it, which I dont think is UIAA approved, but better than nothing.

In reply to ArnaudG:

The route is less than 20m long isn't it - so shouldn't be a problem.

In reply to Lancs Lad:

was this in february?

it might have been me and my mate......

he thought he was funny

In reply to Sean_J:

You can put some cams in the crack below the lip for a "dynamic" belay. There is one wire on the left (looking in). Putting some tension between a cam and that wire may make something vaguely solid. Wouldn't like to try it though.

A.-

In reply to O. C. Curmudgeon:

That was the rationnal, hence its position at number 3.
It was quite amusing after I topped out to see him standing up while saying "you're off!"

A.-

In reply to John_Hat: A single solid stem Friend placed horizontally in a crack that was closer to vertical, over cammed and tied off loosely. It was probably made even worse because in the end it was anchoring a team of 3 people.

Generally I will tell people if I think there doing something really stupid, and it could be life threatening.

In reply to John_Hat: a sling around a boulder about the size of a 16" telly at the top of black slab at burbage north.

In reply to John_Hat:

One of my own which consisted of erm...nothing. Got to the top of a 20m-ish climb on a sea cliff only to find a steep hill going down the other side covered in thistles and nothing else. So I decided to wade down the hill in shorts and t-shirt through all the thistles and then sit in a patch of them. Slightly painful but not as painful as if my second had come off, I would have been able to hold the fall because we would counter-balance each other on either side but would have been hauled through the thistles for a bit before stopping. Luckily he's climbed E5 and it was a VS so wasn't too concerned.

Andy

In reply to AndyH1710:


I doubt it. The friction of the rope over the crag-top would have probably been enough to stop it running.