UKC

Back to this again. I didn't notice it yesterday, but having another flick through it seems that we're all rugged square jawed blonde or brunette caucasians. Same applies for the women, aside from being square jawed (well actually there is one woman of dubious gender..).

Where are the minorities? How about offering us a token?

And this is where it gets hilariously self-conscious.. turn to the very last page (p145). See that little box in the bottom right hand corner? Yes, there it is - a black woman in a white sheet I suspect thrown in at the last moment.

Nice one Ellis. Flying the flag for minorities everywhere with that one

In reply to Smythie:

I seriously doubt if minorities were purposely left out. Don't get your turban in a twist.

In reply to Benjamin More:


You misunderstand. They weren't left out...

In reply to Smythie:

Well you've lost me now.

In reply to Smythie:

Who's this Ellis Brigham bird anyway?

In reply to Benjamin More:

Yeah. I mean all the gay folk in Sandals holiday adverts are just off-screen...

In reply to Smythie:

Apart from us locals I don't encounter too many ethnic minorities in my travels around the scottish hills.Maybe Ellis Brigham don't see these groups as strategic in terms of sales.

In reply to curlymynci:
LOL, they would presumably be the better dressed ones then?

In reply to Smythie: Well you have a point, but how many black or asian people have you seen on the fells? I have to say that I have not seen any.

You could argue the same point and raise the question of why there are no white bangra artists (to my knowledge), or Chineese regee artits?

Its all horses for courses. If your market is white, why promote to them with images of ethnic minorities?

In reply to Slugain Howff:

Yeah I agree. Purely in terms of marketing it would be a bit of a nonsense to cater to people who aren't going to read your catalogue.

Still tho. The token effort at the back has to be seen. Worth a laugh.

In reply to Smythie: bets she's lesbian as well

In reply to Graham T:

No. Actually, both Sandals and it's little brother company (whose name escapes me but is equally banal) do not allow same sex couples to pollute it's beaches. :o/

In reply to Smythie:


Isn't that a bit offensive? Worth a laugh? Do you often laugh at minorities? How would you like to be a token in a magazine aimed at black minorities?

In reply to curlymynci:
Hmm, makes you wonder if a discrimination case has been brought yet, mind you lots of hair lesbians would put you off somewhat :P

In reply to Jon Dittman:

A magazine aimed at black minorities? Surely such a thing could never exist, it would be a scandal!

In reply to Jon Dittman:


Relax man. It's the petty effort that's hilarious. The issue isn't funny at all. And I can attest to my consideration having helped draft equal ops policy this year.

I'm guessing you were being sincere and not just trying to flame however.

In reply to Graham T:
mind you lots of hair lesbians would put you off somewhat :P

Or not

hasn't anyone else got the catalogue. It's more apparent if you have the thing in front of you to see for yourself. It's free with this month's Trail mag.

In reply to Smythie:

I think the stigma attached to reading Trail would deter a lot of people, ethnic or otherwise.

In reply to Benjamin More:


Elitist!

||-)

In reply to Smythie: No I am not trying to flame you. I find this issue harder and harder to discuss. On the one hand you are pointing out that this publication doesn't reflect the mix of society. Fair point. On the other, you are (tounge in cheek I guess) asking for a token black person to make up the numbers - fair point, but could be easily misconstrued.

It is a good job this isn't some religeous magazine because if the government gets its way, and we were talking religion, not colour, you could be arrested for a comment like that!

In reply to Jon Dittman:


http://www.panjabihitsquad.com/

>, or Chineese regee artits?

http://www.danwei.org/archives/000657.html



Because enlarging markets gives more people to sell to.

In reply to Jon Dittman:



I seriously hope THAT was tongue in cheek. Then again, after old Walter's arrest, anything's possible

But really, no need to ill-construction. I think the forum's collectively wise enough to discuss even the most serious issues with a helping of salt.

In reply to Smythie:

I once gave a black guy a lift. Does that count?

In reply to Ridge:


Yeah why not. A black friend would be better though.

In reply to Smythie:


Not at all. If the government manage to pass their reglious hatred bill, it will be a crime to take the p1ss out of religion. You will be seen to incite religous violence or some other jargon term. Very scary!

In reply to Jon Dittman:


Already happened - report in today`s Metro- chap in the South West has been fined and received community service order for wearing a heavy metal t-shirt which said " Jesus Was A Cnut" on it.

Now if he`d been fined for being in to heavy metal, fair enough...

In reply to Smythie:

That's my task for the weekend.
I shall go round the streets of West Lothian looking for black people. If I find one, I will ask them to be my friend, because I want to show I am not racist.

By the way, do you have a colour chart so I can be sure it is a black person I am befriending?

In reply to almost sane:


Good man. Let us know how it goes.

In reply to almost sane:
I used to live up that neck of the woods. You'll have a hard time finding one, although I remember there was a token black guy on campus... he had lots of friends. Perhaps they were all trying to fulfil quotas.

If anyone needs an East Asian (ethnic Chinese)-ish friend for their United Nations certification, drop me a line. Unfortunately I am adopted so won't be able to teach you tai chi...

In reply to Nao: Cheers mate but I've already got 2. One from Beijing and another from Dahleeh (somewhere up North can't spell it).

Need a Spaniard and a Dutchman. Any offers?

In reply to Nao: I like the idea of you being "East Asian-ish". What does that actually mean?

In reply to Smythie:

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

In reply to grynneman: haha seen it before. I love the comments - some people just don't get it

In reply to TobyA:
It means I never know what to put when describing my ethnicity.

If I put 'Asian' then people think I'm the Indian/Pakistani etc type of asian.

If I put 'East Asian' then I think more people think it's my type (my Asian friend and I used to call it 'brown Asian vs yellow Asian' - I'm the yellow type).

If I put Chinese then people kind of know what I mean, but I was born in Taiwan and they're not big fans of China, so I sort of feel like I'm betraying my homeland.

If I put Taiwanese then people always think 'Thai', which I'm not, and then I get jokes about ladyboys (Am Bodach take note) or 'Made in Taiwan' (everyone I've ever met take note).

Added to that, I was adopted by British parents so I really don't have much east-Asian-ish going for me apart from how I look.

See? All complicated!

In reply to Nao: There was a programme about people with lost identity. I don't know what it must be like, but there were people who had mixed race parents who were born in a country and the grew up somewhere completely different. They were effectively the product of 4 different countries. Nightmare!

In reply to Nao: You sound perfectly globalised. I would have thought Taiwanese-British would describe you perfectly. Anybody who doesn't know that Taiwan and Thailand are about 1500 miles apart and totally different place don't deserve much more than a slap round the chops with a large atlas anyway.

In reply to Smythie:

Maybe it's simple economics. I should imagine when they start an advertising campaign or produce expensive marketing material they do some sort of research to discover what market sector spends the most money on the type of products they sell so as to achieve maximum revenue for outlay invested from their marketing budget.

Most companies that want to succeed in an aggressive retail market place do this or they go out of business. Maybe their target market is square-jawed blond and brunette caucasians.

I doubt very much that it's a discrimination issue.

In reply to TobyA:
Thanks guys. But to be fair, I haven't been back since I was a baby, so I can't really talk!

(Hmm - mental note to learn a martial art.)

In reply to Jon Hemlock:
It seems to me that Smythie has some sort of affirmative action type stance towards racial equality...

I really don't see what the big deal is with all this proportional representation of people in advertising campaigns. I think ethnic minorities know when they're being patronised. I also think that if they are not heavily represented in that domain then it is fair enough that they are not represented in advertising campaigns.

There was some research a while ago talking about how people responded to advertising (I can't find a citation but it exists somewhere...) and I think they found that on the whole people responded to images of idealised people. Generally people didn't want to see 'real' stuff because the products being advertised are usually aspirational. Hence Burberry does not use ASBO-ridden kids from council estates in its advertising campaigns (though you could argue to toss with Mossy).

In reply to TobyA:

I'm guessing you'll need to buy a lot of atlases

While we are at it do you know somewhere that is 1500 miles apart and in the same place? (sounds like a good riddle)

In reply to Smythie:

My pen is black, and I have never seen a person who is the same colour as my pen.

So who are the black people I should befriend?

In reply to Nao:

I think maybe Smythie has realised that climbing in the UK has some genuine problems linked to ethnicity and that the catalogue putting in role model images might help. I'd be interested to know the views of any of the genuinely under-represented groups ('east asians' are rarer in the UK and yet quite a few seem to climb)

In reply to Offwidth:


At a Palestinian / Israeli peace conference, perhaps.

In reply to Offwidth:
Sorry, I have hardly seen any, but then I'm not really looking.

Would you like to specify which groups are under-represented?

In reply to almost sane:

Genius!

In reply to Nao:

Oi! We prefer 'positive discrimination' in the UK.

Actually, I'm dead set against positive discrimination - which entails lowering standards or making it easier for minorities to access a service.

The climbing issue is more to do with looking inclusive.

In reply to Smythie: Well, you will take up a white middle class pastime wont you.
Incidentally, why dont you look in the NEXT catalogue; they seem to be purporting the same white anglo saxon protestant attitude you seem to be refering to.
Personally, I wouldnt read too much into it, unless I was Millie Tant....but then they do sell white bed sheets so maybe there is some kind of connection there, or am I being too sensitive. Political correctness gone mad.......

In reply to Smythie:
What ethnicity are you? Are you a minority with a grudge or a well-meaning caucasian?

In reply to Ste Brom:

Should it stay that way?

In reply to Nao:

I'd say almost any other! My view is distorted working at a Uni I have climbed with Thai, Malaysian (Chinese and Tamil ethnicity), Chinese and Japanese climbers studying in the UK.

In reply to Jon Dittman:

I see some in the Peak District at Burbage and Win Hill and places.

>Its all horses for courses. If your market is white, why promote to them with images of ethnic minorities?

It isn't if you see black and asian people in the peak district.

()

It's not the only thing that's a bit unequal though,because i've seen the ocasional form i've filled in which has had a trangender box,but most forms don't. Not much to do with catalogues though.

In reply to Offwidth:
Well I have hardly seen any other ethnic minority climbers but I don't get my knickers in a twist about it like some people seem to. I feel that as an ethnic group, mine is under-represented in a whole lot of things (eg management consulting, where I work, climbing, mountain biking) but being a sturdy little Ch----, I manage to power on through it despite the obvious handicap of belonging to a 'minority' race.

I just wish some people would stick up some pictures of Chinese mountain bikers, climbers and management consultants to help me. I do find it hard...

In reply to Offwidth:

Perhaps you could elaborate ?

In reply to Smythie:


I dont see what anyone can do to change it. let alone a poxy catalogue. and it would be naive to assume that a catalogue with a balance of ethnicity in it is going to change the situation.
Id start by addressing the fact that social barriers exist first then concentrate on 'leisure time'.
face it, its a minefield and its hard to be objective without being condescending, arrogant, reinforcing perceived cultural values etc. damned if you do or dont in brighams case.

In reply to Timmd:That wasn't ment in a pompous way at all.

In reply to Wingnut:
Unfortunately he is not exactly the same ethnicity as me, therefore I still feel excluded...



Oh and he looks like a nutter!

In reply to Wingnut:
Regardless of ethnicity, that is one bloody scary photo

In reply to Nao:

I'm surrounded at work and in the city where I live by a rich ethnic mix. Sadly the vast majority of established climbers I meet are white males. I find that rather sad as the newbies coming through our Uni Club normally start with as many women as men and an even richer mix of ethnicities and nationalities and are interesting people.

I guess in climbing terms, continuing your self irony, you would be triply handicapped being a short woman as well. Its an easy game to play as there are no simplistic answers but I prefer recognition that there is at least a question.

In reply to Nao and Graham T:
Lliwedd, anyone?
>;

In reply to Wingnut:
Pass, i seem to remember threads concerning that.
And i would probably require a nappy

In reply to Offwidth:
Why is it a problem ? You have just described a situation in which women and minorities are given the opportunity to climb but ultimately choose not to.
Why is this choice a problem ?

In reply to Nao:

I've had a look at the Ellis Brigham catalogue, and there's no pictures of short, hairy, fat, weak punters with glasses either. I too feel excluded

In reply to Postmanpat: that women and minorities choose not to climb is not necessarily a problem but it is worth asking the question why they choose not to.

In reply to Bob Hughes:
BECAUSE MAYBE THEY DON'T WANT TO!

I really thought we had done this subject already...

In reply to Bob Hughes:
Well , probably , but by describing it as a problem he has prejudged the answer .

In reply to Postmanpat:

A similar issue was the dominance of men in UK Engineering and Physics. I was told by some that women choose not to do these subjects so whats the problem? Yet in other countries the numbers were not so bad and in some Eastern European countries there was little difference.

In reply to Offwidth:
It's not a similar issue at all . Climbing is a hobby/sport not a career .
Having said that , if females are given the same opportunity to be enginers and choose not to be so what ?

In reply to Offwidth:

Maybe women are smart enough to do realise you can do an easier degree and end up being the Engineer/Physicist's boss?

In reply to Nao:
being a sturdy little Ch----, I manage to power on through it despite the obvious handicap of belonging to a 'minority' race.

chinese is hardly a minority race seeing as they make up 1/5 of the world's population!

In reply to Morgan Woods:
However I think they fall under the classification of 'ethnic minority' in the UK. Which is where I am.

In reply to Ridge:

Or marry the Engineer/Physicist's boss.




Only kidding, feminists!

In reply to Morgan Woods:


How many South Asians and Africans do you think there are ???? They're hardly like the Bushmen of the bloody Kalihari are they ?

In reply to Postmanpat:

In the Engineering case it was a no brainer: Because it was bad for the economy (loss of getting on for 50% of the potential talent) and it may have indicated hidden social problems putting them off(schooling, the image of the profession etc). It was regarded by almost every organisation involved as something requiring research and then after that, when suspitions that there may be something wrong tended to get confirmed, action of various types (this included some pretty strong Positive Discrimination which tended to cause as many problems as it solved).

In climbing terms the damage is to the social mix and fewer good climbers and again I think it merits looking into why this affects the UK more than some other countries.

In reply to Offwidth:
I agree on engineering but that is problem for the country not for women .

I don't get your points on climbing at all . Less good climbers , and less of a social mix . The former really doesn't matter and if it bothers you then spend some time doing things where the mix is greater .

In reply to Postmanpat:
I am still waiting to hear Smythie's answer to my question. I'd like to know if you are a member of an ethnic minority who feels discriminated against, or whether you are a well-meaning white person.

Are you going to answer?

In reply to Postman Pat

In Enginering of course its a problem for women as well as the country:

Finance: at one stage Engineering had the best pay prospect for women of any profession and if it damages the economy it damages everyone.
Education and discrimination: problems in these areas are bad for the future generations.

In climbing terms if you beleive that such a distorted mix is not worth questioning and that individual choice can't be distorted by problems within social groups I guess we agree to disagree.

In reply to Nao:

What if hes white but doest think of himself as 'well meaning'?

In reply to Offwidth:
I have just noticed several similarly themed postings from Smythie and this is obviously a subject close to his heart. I do think it would help to contextualise it by telling what his ethnicity is. For example, is he a black guy who has suffered a lot of racial discrimination and therefore feels threatened to go to his local climbing wall? Or is he a white guy who has never suffered racial discrimination but nonetheless feels that there are not enough ethnically diverse climbers at his local climbing wall, and has jumped to the conclusion that they don't do it because they feel threatened/excluded?

I guess I feel that ethnicity should not have anything to do with climbing and that the lack of ethnic climbers is not a big deal. But maybe it is... and that's why I want to know about other 'ethnic' climbers - what do they think? Am I odd because I don't feel oppressed, that I don't feel that race has anything to do with climbing?

In reply to Nao:

That's better put but still implies hes either non-white or a white guy with a chip on his shoulder.

In reply to Offwidth:
No it doesn't. He obviously has a chip on his shoulder! The question is why it is there, and his ethnicity and personal experience is relevant to that.

In reply to Nao: THANK YOU. THAT'S VERY CLEAR NOW.

blimey.

lol at Nao:

I'm a white N Irish caucasian. Thanks for telling me that I have a chip on my shoulder - you've saved me 50quid in therapy

I grew up in the country with absolutely no blacks, chinese whatever. And for all my sympathies and consideration for minorites in the UK - you say I have a chip.

Some would commend me for coming from such an isolated background and accepting other cultures - as many of us in the UK do.

Perhaps you'd prefer it if I send a molitov through your window - would I be without chip then? Does Cherie Blair have a chip too?

Silly confused bugger you.

In reply to Smythie:
I am not confused, as far as I know, but perhaps I am.

My point is that you continually seem to be making a big deal about racial issues - particularly the lack of ethnic diversity in climbing - but you don't seem to realise that by making it something that matters (ethnicity of the climber), you're actually making it into an issue.

You have suggested on several occasions that all it would take to get more ethnic minorities into climbing is a better advertising campaign. My point is that I am an 'ethnic minority' climber and I did not get into climbing or anything else because I saw pictures of happy smiling Chinese people. Nor have I purposely avoided things because of a lack of pictures of happy smiling Chinese people.

I think your thoughts are well-meaning but they come across as very patronising, as though people from racial minorities couldn't possibly have just made the decision not to do something because they don't want to. There has to be a reason like they feel excluded or there aren't any role models for them or something. Why can't it just be that they don't feel like doing it?

In reply to Nao: More yaking. Of course most don't want to climb - most white people don't want to climb either.

The point is simple. There are a proportion of minorities that would climb if it was catered for them. Most probably.

Same with everything - there's always a catchment.

What's patronising about wanting diversity? You come off with some off-key statements.

In reply to Smythie:

None of us fat chicks appear in the catalogue either ;~(

In reply to Smythie:

And you have arrived at this conclusion how, exactly? And how is it going to be 'catered for them'?

By providing free curry with every ascent?

By providing racially matched mentors for young ethnic climbers?

Come off it man, you say I come out with some off-key statements. How exactly do ethnic minority climbers have to be 'catered for'?

In reply to Mick's Daughter: You're not fat..

In reply to Nao: i agree with offwidth, the largest minority group in our climbing club was also east asian. followed by what i suppose must be west asian. This year we seem to have gained our first proper black fresher for ages- seems a bit quiet though, so im not sure whether he'll stay.

In reply to Smythie:
In fact your last statement inflames me the most. I don't see why anyone from an ethnic minority needs any special treatment to go climbing. Do they need different harnesses? Different boots? Do they need to do different climbs? Different rope for ethnics? I don't see how anyone of a different race needs specific ethnic climbing stuff.

In reply to Smythie:

I'm definitely not thin!

lol at Nao:


What the Jesus are you on about?

In reply to Mick's Daughter: You're cute!

In reply to Smythie:

Now I feel really embarrassed....I have no idea who you are. Did you used to post under a different profile name?

In reply to Mick's Daughter: This admirer will keep his secret

In reply to Smythie:
But Offwidth specifically told us there were a num,ber of "ethnic" freshers who came to his university club but didn't continue .So they had every opportunity but opted not to pursue climbing .

Is this a problem ? He thinks it is .

In reply to Smythie:

Dammit! Anyway back to the OP......

I'm not a big fan of Ellis Brigham anyway so I don't usually read the catalogue when it arrives unless I'm looking for something specific. I've also got the S&R and Cotswold brochures so I may compare them.

In reply to Offwidth:
Why ?? If they have the opportunity and choose not to take it they clearly don't consider it as a problem .

(Obviously in the sense they they are part of the country it is a problem for them but that is a different point)

In reply to Mick's Daughter:

The Cotswold brochure is a giggle.
There's loads of people looking seriously up towards the summits with more meaningful looks than you see on a Soap Opera.

Oh, and there are no tubby middle aged blokes having a laugh, so I feel excluded!

In reply to Postmanpat:

Are you doing this on purpose? These non-white climbers are either new or they are ex students who mainly still climb (or would be but too busy) but almost all were overseas based: they are if anything keener than averege and probably will continue to be so. The questions I'd like an answer to are why have proportionally so few non-white British people taken it up (and still continue) and why is there such a dearth of experienced women climbers (although at least proportionally plenty give it a go now).

On Engineering and women I gave a personal reason for them: they exclude themselves from a career that many find very satisfying and as I said at one point was said to be statistically the most lucrative of any (probably due to the shortage).

In reply to Nao

Can we please try and depersonialise this: no one is stating you do anything other than what you want to. However, if ethnicity (or gender) is not an issue as linked to UK culture why do the statistical distortions occur that are way outside the boundaries of chance.

100: do I get a prize?

In reply to Offwidth:
So what you are demonstrating is that there are overseas based non white climbers but not domestically based . This may be of some academic interest but nothing more than that .
Diversity surely means tolerance of different tastes and cultures rahter than everyone having the same tastes and cultures ?

In reply to Postmanpat: Since when has diversity been defined as tolerance?

Not in my dictionary anyway.

In reply to Smythie:
Oh for God's sake .It was a lzy shorthand . Would "multiculturalism" or "embracing diversity 2suit you better ?

In reply to Timmd:

>which has had a trangender box

Blimey - at which stage in the process does one have one of those, then?

jcm

In reply to Nao:

You go, girl.

How come there aren't more white people playing basketball? There ought to be posters showing white people playing, so that we can take it up.

It's all too silly for words, really.

jcm

In reply to Anonymous/jcm:
I was beginning to feel I was a lone voice in the wilderness.

I think Smythie should apply for a position at the Commission for Racial Equality. I am sure he would do well there.

In reply to Postmanpat:

haha just keeping you in check there.

In reply to Mick's Daughter: just spat my coffee out lol.

yeah where are the fat chicks in the catalogues?
( before you get paranoid i am by no means refering to you! look very average/slim build in piccy )

In reply to Anonymous:


That makes as much sense to me as a bag of spanners does to a jellyfish.

Basketballers are mainly black because Afro-carribs seem to be producing taller players, necessary for the game's unique strategies.

Where do you see this same uniqueness in climbing? Maybe mountains and crags only appear where there are white people? Maybe only white people are smart enough to know how to put on a harness?

Tell us - I'm dying to know. You claim to support Nao's point of view - but in fact, you just argued against everything he's stood for in this thread.

In reply to Anonymous:
Putting together a brochure for an event I'm putting on overseas, the marketing "experts" in support have said that any photos I use should show a "nice racial mix". I've asked them to let me know what sort of mix wouldn't be nice in their view, just so that I can avoid such an unfortunate occurence, but they haven't replied yet... As you say, all too silly for words.

In reply to Nao:
<deep breath and ready to duck>
I'm with you here too, but I suspect if I'd made the same comments as you, I'd have been branded 'racist' by certain parties... (I am hardly in a position to be - my partner is Polish and I am a mongrel of undetermined origin)
I suspect peoples culture may have more to do with the lack of 'minorities' who climb than whether shop catalogues are full of white anglo-saxon types....
The OP should get himself down to the climbing walls in Sheff - there are regularly groups of young asian girls having climbing lessons - maybe his perceived lack of 'ethnic minorities' climbing is more local than he realises...

PS - to Smythie - Nao is female, so not a 'he'...

Seems to me there are several issues here:

One: random magazine uses mainly white models to sell stuff to the mainly white climbing community. Big deal. Smythie notes that a small picture of a black person appears to have been added in as an afterthought to 'balance it up'. Maybe it has, it doesn't really matter.

Two: Offwidth wonders why the proportion of people of ethnic minorities in the UK population and the climbing population are wildly different. It's not a problem, just a curiosity.

Three: Some daft people start talking about marketing climbing to ethnic minorities, and although it's probably well-meaning, it is patronising and slightly embarrassing to watch.

Fourthly, To Nao: If you are going to start handing out curry to ethnic minorities, will my slightly inbred Cumbrian roots qualify me, at least for the poppadums and dips tray?

In reply to Ric29Feb:


So because you were able to regurgitate an old joke of the loose language means you've made a profound point?

In reply to TN:



My mistake. It's easier to tell some times more than others.

In reply to crossdressingrodney:

Quite. It is mildly interesting why more people from ethnic minorities don't climb, (or hillwalk) but agonising about it and suggesting solutions to the 'problem' is ridiculous. What was that guided walk service in the Lakes that lost its funding because they didn't guide enough non-whites?

In reply to smythie:

Are Afro-Caribbeans taller than the general population, on average?! And even it if is true that you have to be, let us say, six foot four to play, is it not true that black people are over-represented in basketball even if one makes an allowance for your theory that more of them are over six-foot-four than of the population as a whole? Lock forwards are frequently over that height also, and I can't think of a single black one. Can the truth be that white men can't jump (without other squat and muscular white men lifting them up, anyway)?

jcm

In reply to TN:
Thanks TN! I was last time I checked.

I am not going to pull the old 'I'm an ethnic minority therefore I can't be racist' stuff out of the bag, as that is not the point I was trying to make.

My point is that I don't see why a lack of minority representation in something necessarily entails some kind of racial conspiracy.

As a member of a minority group who has been subjected to racism many times throughout my life, I find it insulting that people seem to think that they can solve racial problems through the following:

a) taking affirmative action, eg putting pictures of minority climbers in adverts etc to make a point, when it's not representative of the sport

b) seeing problems where there aren't problems, eg 'needing to cater for ethnic minority climbers' - how exactly? I don't understand how they are not currently catered for.

In reply to Smythie:
Undoubtedly not profound - such depths are beyond me - but loose language or nonsense, call it what you will, needs to be knocked back for what it is.

In reply to Anonymous: Either way you suggest a genetic reason for why certain groups do or don't play a sport.

Whether you're suggestion has any merit at all is besides the point...

Basketballers are chosen - it's a league. Doesn't apply with climbing.

And as I said before you don't need to have any advantage to climb.

In reply to Ric29Feb: Yeh, simply loose language. Doesn't mean he didn't have a good point - he just articulated himself in a way that left him open to ridicule.

Big deal.

In reply to Mick's Daughter:

Then you must be perfectly proportioned!

(It is a BAD thing to say nasty things about yourself, you wouldn't do it to someone else now, would you? - say something nice instead!)

In reply to tlm:

Yeah and more pics.

In reply to Nao:


I didn't mean to imply that's what you were doing - sorry about that.

In reply to Smythie:

But that's just it - it isn't a good point. Why should she (not he, again) suggest that the shots in the brochure should be sculptured in this way? If the activities portrayed in the photos are attractive to a mix of races, then that will be reflected naturally in the pictures. If the activities don't seem to attract people from different cultures, then they won't. Simple as that. The suggestion implies that some manipulation is required or desirable. The point just doesn't need making - if a racial mix is achieved naturally, then that's a happy thing; if it's contrived, it's patroninsing.

In reply to Smythie:
by the by is the picture you are reffering to the one for cocoon's white silk sleeping bag liner? if so perhaps a black model because it makes a better picture rather than any tokenism??