UKC

I'm sure I'm missing something here, but if you abseiled over a knot, then haven't you just kissed two ropes goodbye?

In reply to thumger: huh??? i don't get what you mean.

In reply to thumger: probaley unless the rope has been damaged in some gnarly rope shredding incident it then becomes important to thread them correctly.

In reply to thumger:

BIG sea cliff:

Tie an ab. rope to solid anchors at top.
Tie a fig 8 on the bight at the end and clip a screwgate into it.
Ab. down the rope until you come to the knot.
You still need another ab. to get to the bottom, so take your climbing rope off your back and loop it through the screwgate.
Transfer your ab. device to the looped climbing rope ensuring you are protected the whole time by a prussik or similar.
Set up a new prussik on climbing rope and continue the ab. to the bottom of the cliff.
At bottom, retreive climbing rope.
When you get to the top of the route, pull up your insitu ab. rope.
Go to pub.

In reply to Chewbacca:

What he means is that it is odd that someone would have to pass a knot when rappelling as it is unusual to rap on a single line unless it is attached at the top which means not retrievable.

In reply to thumger: probably, but then you would only do that if you were in severe dificulties so why worry about it?

In reply to nz Cragrat:

Apart from those reasons mentioned while I was typing of course...

In reply to nz Cragrat: unless of course your route ends up back at the starting point and you can just pull it back up....

In reply to Ian Straton:

I guess its the chicken and the egg thing

Going down after you have gone up or going up then coming back down...

In reply to All: Thanks guys, I understand now.

In reply to nz Cragrat: um you just said the equivalent of left hand down a bit, right hand up a bit...

In reply to Ian Straton:

Well even down under we usually start at the bottom and end up at the top but no you in our antipodes have to be backwards and start on top and go down first then back up....

In reply to Phil West:

Is that the "knot passing manouvre" as badly demonstrated by the guy how was filmed falling a great distance at Mallam or was he trying something else... I was very impressed that the guy didn't kill himself however I cant really imagine how he managed to become completely unattached. Does anybody know what he did wrong?

In reply to thumger: When you reach the knot during the abseil, lock the fig 8. (cross over and tie off), put a prussik well above your descender and lock it tightly up the rope, tie the end of the prussik into a screwgate on your belay loop with a mariners knot (easy to untie under load). Thread the knot through the fig 8, or use another below the knot, lock off fig.8 again. Untie and retrieve the prussik (be prepared for a small drop as the slack is taken in). Carry on abseiling. This is why the hole in a fig 8 is so large and why a fig8 is so much better than using a belay device to abseil (apart from heat dissipation).

In reply to Dave Stelmach:

I don't think that is any justification at all for using a Fig 8 and thus having to carry an extra device - it inly takes a few seconds to tie off an ATC. Fig 8's are a waste of space.

As you already know you are going to pass a knot rapping with a prussik hitch above the device will save you time - Klemheist or French can be released under load easily.

In reply to nz Cragrat:

I prefer abseiling with a fig 8, especially over uneven slopes. It's worth carrying a little bit of extra weight for the smoother ride and greater control. It's because I'm lighter. An ATC is fine on near vertical terrain, but less than that and I have to bounce on the rope and feed it through too much.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

I'm a lightweight too and don't have much of a problem....

In reply to nz Cragrat: I've had a figure of eight since I started climbing in 1993 and I always carry mine and use it if I have to abseil. I only lead up to VS and the extra weight is insignificant and it is purpose built for the job.

In reply to nz Cragrat:

I help run a module about safety on steep ground for my search team, and my former co-helper used to insist that you could do everything with an ATC. But it quickly became patently obvious that all the lighter people; the ones under about nine stones, struggled more on the abseil with an ATC than a fig 8.

In reply to Jason Kirk:

Sorry if I rant but it is one of my pet peeves.

I have been climbing since 1980 (fairly globally) mountain and rock and I instruct. Stopped using one years ago and have not regretted or missed it.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

Maybe it is something in the air? as none of the SAR teams I have worked with have that problem (have worked on pro SAR team at Mt Cook) plus others since 1983.Interesting.

In reply to thumger: your a tit and you should not be on the hill!

In reply to Alison Stockwell:
But it quickly became patently obvious that all the lighter people; the ones under about nine stones, struggled more on the abseil with an ATC than a fig 8.

What size ropes?

In reply to nz Cragrat:

Well, yes. The size of the ropes makes a difference of course.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

So what do you use on your exercises?

In reply to nz Cragrat:

11 mm. And it's a steep bank rather than a vertical wall.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

Ahhh

There in lies the problem... 11mm do you not have to carry your ropes or something? We use singles 9. whatever to max 10.5mm.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

I'm the opposite...I prefer abbing on a figure 8 because I'm *heavier*.

I find the extra metal in the figure 8, and greater surface area, dissipates the heat I generate far better than a bug or similar device does. Even the large Clog fig 8 I use gets incredibly hot on long abs...I dread to tnink how hot an ATC or bug would get from the energy transfer involved in lowering my huge bulk!

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Large fig 8 used to be good for cleaning routes as it was smooth, dissipated heat better than most things and was easily locked of when you needed to stop and shift loose rock. Much easier than taking a turn round your leg as we did with other devices.