UKC

Been contemplating with doing an MBA, but as it's marketing that I'd probably want to go into, I wonder if there are alternative courses from the Chartered Institute of Marketing that I might be able to do without having to quit my job and going seriously into debt. Also wonder if an MBA is really worth it if you don't want to go into banking or private equity.
Know this has nothing to do with climbint, but always struck by the breadth of people on this board.

In reply to Lightweight:

MBA: Master of B*gger All.

Generally done for either

1. Networking
2. Career direction change

Given the cost, you definitely need to be sure you can get a good job, post course. Also, I wouldn't bother unless you can get into a good school and make use of the networking that goes on during the course.

If you're going to do one, go to the US. UK/European schools don't cut it, in my opinion.

Disclaimer: I'm not doing an MBA, would never do one and don't think much of the course content they offer.

In reply to Lightweight:

you can definitely do CIM courses part time without leaving work - but I don't know if they make you go right the way through certificate, diploma, etc, or whether you can jump in at higher levels according to experience.

In reply to Lightweight:

I know that they have a professional development course to become a full member or somthing like that at the CIM - a friend used to study for it all the time. Maybe you can get your boss /company to pay for it as staff development?

The IPR also offers a part-time evening course in Public Relations if you are interested in that - have a look at their websitses.

Last, but not least you can do on-line (part-time ) courses such as an MSc in Marketing or MBA at many universities without leaving your job.

Anyways, if you go for the full-time option you might consider at MSc in Marketing rather than an MBA (cheaper and often very similar content....)

In reply to Lightweight:

My housemate is doing the CIM diploma in the evenings as well as working full time. She's finding it quite hard going (but english is not her first language, so that might account for some of the difficulties).

Over the year, she goes to a lectures 2 evenings a week, and then has to complete a project for each module (I think there are 4 modules in total) (rather than exam based assessment). I *think* its costing her about 1300 for the whole course, but don't quote me, and I know she went to the cheapest provider she could find (which has less student support).

I think with all these things you have to be sure you want to do it, as it will eat into a lot of your time and take commitment and motivation. And don't take what I'm saying as gospel, have a look at the CIM's website and they explain the courses and then find a provider that suits you. I think you can do them as correspondence courses too.

HTH

HR

In reply to Lightweight: MBA's will only give you a flavour of business and will not make you a leader of commerce - they are usually for the management consultants so they can career progress - I found my MBA useful for understanding business as my background is R&D.

I'm still paying for it and I completed my course in 2000.

In reply to Lightweight:
Stirling Uni do an online post grad in Public Relations which is recognised by CIPR.

In reply to Lightweight:


I've recently done an MBA and moved into marketing (from IT). I did an incredibly general degree as I had no idea what I wanted to do afterwards.

If you already know that you want to do marketing, do a CIM course. Much cheaper and probably a bit faster. An MBA will give you very litte practical experience or even theoretical background for marketing. It's main benefits are (as mentioned above) networking and random career changing.

Does it work as a means of career progression?
Friend also said if you're going to do it, go to the USA and do Wharton, Harvard, or similar.
Went to London Business School open evenings and they put me off - they banged on about how great it is being in London, and how close you are to the investment banks.
Neither of these were attractions to be honest.
Insead looks to have a shorter course, but my French is useless.
To be honest, I just want to ramp up my career but being early thirties, it's a little hard to see the way to do it.

In reply to Lightweight:

If you can get into Harvard it isn't going to hurt your career. It is going to cost a wad though, so you need to work out if the payback period/return is going to be reasonable.

Also, getting in isn't a doss either.

IB's/management consultancies are the most obvious destinations after an MBA - if only because the financial rewards are potentially the highest.

In reply to Lightweight:

School choice depends on where you want to work afterwards, and what you want to do.

So do you want to 'ramp up your career' or do you want to switch to marketing? You are sounding a tad confused!

In reply to Lightweight:

The CIM used to send me lots and lots of flyers and adverts for such courses, so no doubt they do exist.

Be sure that they are focussed on what you actually want to do. Marketing is a broad subject. I used to chuckle at how irrelevant the flyers were to me - seemed the CIM weren't very strong on targetting...

My former employer paid to put me through an MSc in Industrial Sales and Marketing. It was a consortium course split with two other big companies, and not open to outsiders. After two or three years part time study, we had the option to quit with a diploma which could be used as credit for an MBA, or carry on to do another year to get the MSc. I went for the MSc feeling that I'd be better with a distinctive and focussed skill on my cv than with an MBA.

The course was at Loughborough Uni. I don't know if it's still running, but the department are no doubt still active and get high ratings. So maybe take a look at them.

I got a lot out of it, but choose your area; industrial S+M (large account sales, public affairs, multi-year multi-issue deals) is a long way from chosing the packaging colours for chocolate eggs or statistical process control for telesales agents... but it's all Marketing.

Good luck,

Y

In reply to Lightweight: I did an MBA part-time in 1994, in terms of career progression it definitely helped. You don’t need to go to the States, just make sure that which ever one you opt for is AMBA accredited – employers do make a distinction post qualification, all MBA’s are not considered equal.

Coming into it with a BEd and a background working in general management, I found that the over view it gave of all aspects of business particularly useful. I got my employers to provide 50% funding and give me a half day, day release; I had to pay the other 50% and give up an evening for lectures, together with the additional private study time.

Its something I've never regretted investing the time and money in – but be clear at the outset it takes a degree of commitment to complete.

In reply to Lightweight:

Hi Lightweight,

Some observations/advice from both sides of the fence (the employer and the person with the qualification):

Firstly, where. MBAs have become more widespread and this has degraded their impact. There are many poor schools around and so it is now *much* more important where you did it. I don't agreed that only US schools are worthwhile. Insead is probably best bet in Europe (and near font!), but London and Manchester are also serious courses.

Secondly, format. Doing these things part-time is a mountain of work and (IMHO) less fulfilling/effective. However, the cost of going full-time is both the direct course cost but also the opportunity cost of 1-3 years out of the earnings stream. Therefore you need to be really sure it is the right career choice and not just a "I don't know what to do next so I'll do an MBA". Full-time on a 1-2 year course is optimal in my view.

Thirdly, timing. You're 29 - which I think will give you a really solid base of experience to draw on and put in context what you're being taught. Brace yourself for newly graduated folk spouting irritating bullshit though.

Fourthly, motivation. It's a *very* good sign that your original post was thinking in terms of skills to be developed not just letters to be acquired. If you're sure that marketing is for you then do a DipM. If you want financial skills then ACCA or CIMA. A good MBA course will give you sound business and finacial skills with some appreciation of core disciplines - HR, marketing/sales, Law, capital structuring, etc. Most courses have options that allow you to change the emphasis of your course. A good course will also teach you some fantastic skills in dealing with a large workload efficiently. Finally, an MBA or DipM will not "transform" you and get you into a brand new discipline if you have no prior experience - no one will appoint (say) an HR manager as marketing manager purely on the strength of a qualification.

From an employer point of view, too often I see MBA graduates that
- have no/little prior experience
- expect a huge step change in salary and unrealistically accelerated career progression
- think it makes them "better" than folk who have reached the same poiint through other paths
- believe that they can go from a level 6 in widget polishing to a level 19 in finance purely because they have a qualification but with no relevant experience

Sometimes I see people who have
- solid experience in a discipline
- the MBA used to build depth and scope to their skills
- use their breadth to bring insights and seek the in-work experience of others
- recognise that progression is performance, not letters, based

Let me know if you've more specific questions. We have folk here who went to many of the major schools.

John

In reply to Lightweight: Depending on the scope of the marketing you want to do an MBA could be a good investment. I have just finished my MBA over in the USA at MIT Sloan, about 20% of my classmates went into marketing jobs at a range of places from big multinationals like American Express and Google through to smaller start ups. Despite being a newly minted MBA I would tend to agree to an extent with some comments on here (esp. SARS) who are a little disdainful of the content of the degree - it *is* primarily about networking and finding the right job, especially at the top schools (HBS, Insead, MIT, Wharton, LBS etc) but at any decent business school you *can* take more rigourous classes if you wish.

The advantage of an MBA over a CIM is the international recognition and the contact network it will give you; if you want to work for a large blue chip, especially the US owned ones, an MBA is increasingly essential - if not for getting the job then certainly for progressing. However, the downside is the cost - I am now about $130,000 in debt and have run my assets down; it will be a few years to recoup this but I would make the decision to do an MBA in a heartbeat.

Top marketing bods at the major multinationals are certainly pulling in the cash - talk to one of the career offices at the bigger schools for figures but I would be surprised if a VP of marketing at somewhere like P&G is earning much less than $200k (and possibly much more). There is competition by employers of all types for the better MBA grads and so even outside of the hallowed walls of the PE shops you can expect a decent salary. However, a note of caution, in the US certainly the level of lifetime earnings for an MBA grad drops markedly once you drop below the top 20 or so schools - it really is a case of having to go to the best place you can get accepted in to.

By all means drop me an email offline if you want me to give you a quick run-down of my experiences of the MBA and best of luck whichever way you decide to jump.
JohnB

In reply to Moacs:

That is good advice.

In reply to Moacs:

Good post John - you should archive it and be ready to post it again....

In reply to SARS:

Are you backtracking now given your sweeping generalisations earlier on

In reply to Derbyshire Ben:

Not at all. If you're set on doing an MBA, then it's good advice. I still believe that they are primarily for the two reasons I gave above though.

In reply to Derbyshire Ben:

When I was researching schools, one of the funniest things I read - I think from a BusinessWeek survey - was that many of the MBA students at Stanford's GSB spend their two years working primarily....


....on their golf swing!

I really appreciate the time people have taken here to give such useful answers. It's brought home to me that I really need to answer first the question of what I ultimately want to do (unless my employer offered to pay for MBA in which case it's a no brainer, but they probably won't).
To be frank, I see MBA as a way of switching careers but as I'm not entirely clear about what I want to do, it's hard to make the huge commitment. Also, comments that it's about networking put me off.
May email a couple of you...
In the meantime, thank you.