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What is the 'correct' way to go about this?
Obviously the leader ties into the 2 ends, but how does the second tie in:
1) Rethreaded fig. 8 - will be a massive knot using about half the rope
2) Bowline - again alot of rope used
3) Alpine Butterfly/fig. 8 and clip in - not ideal "adding more links to the chain" potential for cross-loading
Yes, I'm am aware of the brilliant Chris Tan Death Knot. However, I am taking a less experienced mate out on grit, for some practise using double ropes (I only want to carry one in this heat), and would like to be able to say "this is the correct way ..." before adding "but everyone just does it like this". Setting a good example and all.
Cheers in advance
Fraser
Obviously the leader ties into the 2 ends, but how does the second tie in:
1) Rethreaded fig. 8 - will be a massive knot using about half the rope
2) Bowline - again alot of rope used
3) Alpine Butterfly/fig. 8 and clip in - not ideal "adding more links to the chain" potential for cross-loading
Yes, I'm am aware of the brilliant Chris Tan Death Knot. However, I am taking a less experienced mate out on grit, for some practise using double ropes (I only want to carry one in this heat), and would like to be able to say "this is the correct way ..." before adding "but everyone just does it like this". Setting a good example and all.
Cheers in advance
Fraser
In reply to Removed User:
I've tied in using the doubled up end using a rethreaded fig 8, ends up in a huge knot though. Shouldn't matter weather you are leading on it or not.
I've tied in using the doubled up end using a rethreaded fig 8, ends up in a huge knot though. Shouldn't matter weather you are leading on it or not.
In reply to DaveR:
Cheers, was wondering if there was an alterative which gave a smaller knot and used less rope.
Cheers, was wondering if there was an alterative which gave a smaller knot and used less rope.
In reply to Removed User: I would tend to tie the leader to the middle of the rope, that way any twists or kinks can work their way out. as for the knot, given that there is no possibilty of the knot capsizing under load in this case I would thik an overhand knot as close as possible to the harness is as good as anything else, but that's probably because I don't know how to tie an alpine butterfly!
In reply to Ian Straton: sorry should have said: "overhand knot clipped to the harness with a screwgate." I think a rethreaded knot of any ilk is likly to end up huge!
In reply to Removed User: Use 3 tends to be the alpine butterfly rather than the fig 8 though these days. Is the prefered way of tying on to the middle in the alps when carrying coils so should cope with stanage...
In reply to Removed User:
I still don't know what the Chris Tan death knot is. Someone enlighten me.
I still don't know what the Chris Tan death knot is. Someone enlighten me.
In reply to Removed User:
Bowline-on-the-bight in the middle of the rope gives a solid, small knot. Safer than the Chris Tan death knot but similar. I use it all the time*.
(*Now someone will tell me that I'm shortly Going To Die.)
Bowline-on-the-bight in the middle of the rope gives a solid, small knot. Safer than the Chris Tan death knot but similar. I use it all the time*.
(*Now someone will tell me that I'm shortly Going To Die.)
In reply to Richard:
Oh, and here's how to tie one:
http://www.iland.net/~jbritton/bowlineonabight.htm
At step 4 you pass the loop over your head and step through it, dress the knot, and then adjust lengths so you don't have a two foot loop...
> Bowline-on-the-bight in the middle of the rope gives a solid, small knot. Safer than the Chris Tan death knot but similar. I use it all the time*.
Oh, and here's how to tie one:
http://www.iland.net/~jbritton/bowlineonabight.htm
At step 4 you pass the loop over your head and step through it, dress the knot, and then adjust lengths so you don't have a two foot loop...
In reply to Removed User:
I use a bowline on a bight: Start tying on as though you are going to do a standard bowline (with the doubled rope), but after you have passed the doubled end through the loop step through the loop formed by the double end (rather than passing it round the standing end) and tighten up the knot.
It is a good knot as it is neat, and cannot come undone, even without stoppers. The main disadvantage is that it isn't all that quick to untie (but even this isn't too bad with a bit of practice.
Mark
> 2) Bowline - again alot of rope used
does it like this". Setting a good example and all.
I use a bowline on a bight: Start tying on as though you are going to do a standard bowline (with the doubled rope), but after you have passed the doubled end through the loop step through the loop formed by the double end (rather than passing it round the standing end) and tighten up the knot.
It is a good knot as it is neat, and cannot come undone, even without stoppers. The main disadvantage is that it isn't all that quick to untie (but even this isn't too bad with a bit of practice.
Mark
In reply to Alex Purser:
Lark's Foot direct into your harness! See http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=17403
< Usual laugh follows>
Lark's Foot direct into your harness! See http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=17403
< Usual laugh follows>
In reply to Chris Tan Ver. XLVIII SP2:
I usually do that!! but seeing as how petzl condone it I thought I ought to show my mate a 'proper' way of doing it.
I usually do that!! but seeing as how petzl condone it I thought I ought to show my mate a 'proper' way of doing it.
In reply to Removed User:
I do, and can't think why it might be a problem (unless, for some reason, I had to untie half-way up something, or there was for some reason a risk of one of the loops-to-harness getting severed).
> Presumably you can lead on that too, unlike the CTDK
I do, and can't think why it might be a problem (unless, for some reason, I had to untie half-way up something, or there was for some reason a risk of one of the loops-to-harness getting severed).
In reply to Richard:
Hmm, could make escaping the system a bit tricky, but how often does anyone do that on a poxy grit route?
> I do, and can't think why it might be a problem (unless, for some reason, I had to untie half-way up something...)
Hmm, could make escaping the system a bit tricky, but how often does anyone do that on a poxy grit route?
In reply to Richard: I'm confused. Are you talking about tying directly on using this (so the loop of the knot is effectively your waistband) or is the bight threaded through your harness?
In reply to Removed User:
I suppose. But not that much harder than escaping the system if the load is on the tie-in-loops any other way. If you find yourself short of rope to untie because you've used it to build a belay though...
> Hmm, could make escaping the system a bit tricky, but how often does anyone do that on a poxy grit route?
I suppose. But not that much harder than escaping the system if the load is on the tie-in-loops any other way. If you find yourself short of rope to untie because you've used it to build a belay though...
In reply to Richard:
If you look at how the knot behaves, then you can see that when each strand is loaded the knot works exactly the same way as a standard bowine would. In fact, the knot was originaly devised as a way of creating two independent loops, so there's no worries there. As you say, the only issue is not being able to untie in a hurry (or without sufficient rope).
Incidently, I've found that the best way to use it, because of the faff of untying, is for one person to tie in at the start, and for him to keep the rope with him throughout (i.e. coil it over his shoulders at the top before walking down).
Mark
> I do, and can't think why it might be a problem (unless, for some reason, I had to untie half-way up something, or there was for some reason a risk of one of the loops-to-harness getting severed).
If you look at how the knot behaves, then you can see that when each strand is loaded the knot works exactly the same way as a standard bowine would. In fact, the knot was originaly devised as a way of creating two independent loops, so there's no worries there. As you say, the only issue is not being able to untie in a hurry (or without sufficient rope).
Incidently, I've found that the best way to use it, because of the faff of untying, is for one person to tie in at the start, and for him to keep the rope with him throughout (i.e. coil it over his shoulders at the top before walking down).
Mark
In reply to Anonymous:
Ooh, yes. Good point.
> If you look at how the knot behaves, then you can see that when each strand is loaded the knot works exactly the same way as a standard bowine would. In fact, the knot was originaly devised as a way of creating two independent loops, so there's no worries there.
Ooh, yes. Good point.
In reply to Anonymous: Excuse my ignorance, but what would be wrong with just clipping into a screwgate carabiner (clipped around your waistbelt, or into your front belay loop) using the loop of a Fig of 8 or bowline?
In reply to Marc C:
I've always just felt that unnecessarily added links to the chain and thus a small-but-finite increased risk of something failing, such as the crab working open, cross-loading, or whatever. Maybe not likely, but easily avoidable. Less of an issue for seconding, though.
I've always just felt that unnecessarily added links to the chain and thus a small-but-finite increased risk of something failing, such as the crab working open, cross-loading, or whatever. Maybe not likely, but easily avoidable. Less of an issue for seconding, though.
In reply to Marc C:
Nothing really, but it is not ideal for 2 reasons:
1) Possiblity of cross loading karabiner
2) You are adding links the chain; clipping in there are 3 things to fail the knot, th krab, and the belay loop, by tying in you reducing the number of links to one, the knot.
Hope this makes sense
Nothing really, but it is not ideal for 2 reasons:
1) Possiblity of cross loading karabiner
2) You are adding links the chain; clipping in there are 3 things to fail the knot, th krab, and the belay loop, by tying in you reducing the number of links to one, the knot.
Hope this makes sense
In reply to Richard: Very quick to release yourself from the system though (voluntarily!)
In reply to Marc C:
Or with a knife (although expensive, that - and I don't tend to carry one...).
> (In reply to Richard) Very quick to release yourself from the system though (voluntarily!)
Or with a knife (although expensive, that - and I don't tend to carry one...).
In reply to Marc C:
Not much I wouldn't have thought, but it's a bit untidy, and I think a lot of people think that the risk of cross loading the carabiner is too great. Can't imagine it'd be an issue if you don't fall very far though.
Mark
> (In reply to Anonymous) Excuse my ignorance, but what would be wrong with just clipping into a screwgate carabiner (clipped around your waistbelt, or into your front belay loop) using the loop of a Fig of 8 or bowline?
Not much I wouldn't have thought, but it's a bit untidy, and I think a lot of people think that the risk of cross loading the carabiner is too great. Can't imagine it'd be an issue if you don't fall very far though.
Mark
In reply to Removed User: Thanks. Understand the 'negatives', but when seconding single-pitch grit routes, seems a quick, convenient and safe way to tie on.
In reply to Removed User:
I find it easier if you fail to proof-read what you've typed and allow odd grammatical errors to creep in.
I find it easier if you fail to proof-read what you've typed and allow odd grammatical errors to creep in.
In reply to Marc C:
Personally it's more the potential for cross-loading that I'd be worried about, and if the rope's always above you and you're not going to fall very far (as in seconding, or top-roping) clipping in with a crab wouldn't worry me at all.
Personally it's more the potential for cross-loading that I'd be worried about, and if the rope's always above you and you're not going to fall very far (as in seconding, or top-roping) clipping in with a crab wouldn't worry me at all.
In reply to Removed User:
I use a rethreaded overhand, or a fig 8 and screwgate karibiner. If it's a super-skinny half-rope I sometimes use a bunny knot and screwgate karibiner.
I use a rethreaded overhand, or a fig 8 and screwgate karibiner. If it's a super-skinny half-rope I sometimes use a bunny knot and screwgate karibiner.
In reply to Marc C:
Another consideration is that if you're only using one rope then it's best for the leader to tie on to the middle; to stop the rope getting too twisted. i.e. it's good to have a system for tying onto the middle with that you woudn't mind falling on.
Mark
> ... when seconding single-pitch grit routes, seems a quick, convenient and safe way to tie on.
Another consideration is that if you're only using one rope then it's best for the leader to tie on to the middle; to stop the rope getting too twisted. i.e. it's good to have a system for tying onto the middle with that you woudn't mind falling on.
Mark
In reply to Removed User:
A bowline tied with a doubled rope works fine for me - less faff than the 'step through' method, I would've thought (although I've never tried it). With a half rope it's not too big a knot, certainly smaller than a figure-8. And just to reiterate, it's better for the leader to tie into the middle (not least because the leader's likely to be more experienced and happier to tie in with a non-standard knot).
A bowline tied with a doubled rope works fine for me - less faff than the 'step through' method, I would've thought (although I've never tried it). With a half rope it's not too big a knot, certainly smaller than a figure-8. And just to reiterate, it's better for the leader to tie into the middle (not least because the leader's likely to be more experienced and happier to tie in with a non-standard knot).
In reply to all:
Cheers, the leader tying into the middle thing is something I'd never thought about, but it makes a lot of sense.
Thanks again.
Fraser
Cheers, the leader tying into the middle thing is something I'd never thought about, but it makes a lot of sense.
Thanks again.
Fraser
In reply to Removed User: me neither. so educational this place!
In reply to garethmorgan:
Possibly, but you can get pretty slick with a little practice; it's certainly a lot quicker than the two rethreaded figure of eights that you would normally do. Personally, I like the neatness and security of the bowline on a bight, but I can see why you may prefer the normal knot.
Mark
> A bowline tied with a doubled rope works fine for me - less faff than the 'step through' method, I would've thought
Possibly, but you can get pretty slick with a little practice; it's certainly a lot quicker than the two rethreaded figure of eights that you would normally do. Personally, I like the neatness and security of the bowline on a bight, but I can see why you may prefer the normal knot.
Mark
In reply to Removed User: I tie into the middle using a modified fishermans - tie an overhand in the bight, pass thru harness, pass 'end' through o/hand loop heading away from you, tie o/h or stopper knot round main rope. Then clip the little end loop into your harness. Its smaller than a fig 8.
kevinknights
kevinknights
In reply to Marc C:
I missed that he was talking about tying the second into the middle of the rope in the OP, rather than the leader...
> (In reply to fraserhughes) me neither. so educational this place!
I missed that he was talking about tying the second into the middle of the rope in the OP, rather than the leader...
In reply to Anonymous:
>i.e. it's good to have a system for tying onto the middle with that you woudn't mind falling on.
I've taken several 20 footers onto the CTDK - obviously it works!
< Usual laugh follows>
>i.e. it's good to have a system for tying onto the middle with that you woudn't mind falling on.
I've taken several 20 footers onto the CTDK - obviously it works!
< Usual laugh follows>
In reply to Chris Tan: Having sat here for 20 minutes with 2m of electrical flex trying to figure out how to tie into a harness (NOT directly round my waist) with a bowline on the bight, can anyone explain/illustrate this for Mr. Numpty here?
In reply to Chris Tan Ver. XLVIII SP2: Hah! Actually, she keeps dragging my chair directly underneath the light fitting and gesticulating to me to test the knot's strength by tying the rope around my neck then kicking the chair away...all very mystifying!
In reply to Marc C:
Maybe the OP can clarify but have a look at http://www.iland.net/~jbritton/bowlineonabight.htm
At step 2, the two strands at the bottom of the picture loop into your harness.
At step 4, the loop goes over you ( like the CTDK).
At step 5, you will need to feather the knot so that the loop connected to your harness is smaller.
Hope this makes sense.
Maybe the OP can clarify but have a look at http://www.iland.net/~jbritton/bowlineonabight.htm
At step 2, the two strands at the bottom of the picture loop into your harness.
At step 4, the loop goes over you ( like the CTDK).
At step 5, you will need to feather the knot so that the loop connected to your harness is smaller.
Hope this makes sense.
In reply to Chris Tan Ver. XLVIII SP2: So am I right in thinking that the rope passes through the harness but the main loop (shown in Finished Bowline on a Bight- Front View) goes around the waist?
In reply to Marc C:
Err, no . The loop shown in the finished views should follow your belay loop. When you pass the loop (in step 4) over your head, you then need to step have over it, are you doing this?
I've just managed it, it was rather fiddly the firt time few times, but can get quite slick with practise.
Hope that helps, not a very good explanation I know!
> So am I right in thinking that the rope passes through the harness but the main loop (shown in Finished Bowline on a Bight- Front View) goes around the waist?
Err, no . The loop shown in the finished views should follow your belay loop. When you pass the loop (in step 4) over your head, you then need to step have over it, are you doing this?
I've just managed it, it was rather fiddly the firt time few times, but can get quite slick with practise.
Hope that helps, not a very good explanation I know!
In reply to Removed User: Aha! Got it! ta. How very weird. Can't quite picture me doing that at Death Bivouac with mountain boots and crampons on
'Feather' it? More like 'pluck' it stupid until it's into shape!
'Feather' it? More like 'pluck' it stupid until it's into shape!
In reply to Chris Tan Ver. XLVIII SP2: This CTDK - how come you're still alive? People could sue you for misrepresentation under the Sale of Knots Act!
In reply to Removed User: One finer point: Does one leave quite a large loop to belay into - or slide it quite tight?
PS please don't send the pictures! Unless a female friend is modelling the knot!
PS please don't send the pictures! Unless a female friend is modelling the knot!
In reply to Marc C:
Read the very, very fine print at the bottom left hand corner of the instructions just behind the picture of the madonna with the (.)(.)
"Use of this knot may not result in instantaneous death. Death however is inevitable, at some point in the user's lifetime."
Read the very, very fine print at the bottom left hand corner of the instructions just behind the picture of the madonna with the (.)(.)
"Use of this knot may not result in instantaneous death. Death however is inevitable, at some point in the user's lifetime."
In reply to Chris Tan Ver. XLVIII SP2: ah, the Cuprinol philosophy - does what it says it does on the tin (only in lettering that you need a microscope to read).
Right, I've got to do a bit shopping. But first got to undo this immaculately bowline-tied electrical flex I've got woven around the belt loop of my jeans
Right, I've got to do a bit shopping. But first got to undo this immaculately bowline-tied electrical flex I've got woven around the belt loop of my jeans
In reply to Marc C:
I slid it quite tight, about the same size loop as I'd have with a rethreaded fig. 8.
OK, I'll spare you the pictures of my crotch, although seeing your profile pic you could hardly complain!!
I slid it quite tight, about the same size loop as I'd have with a rethreaded fig. 8.
OK, I'll spare you the pictures of my crotch, although seeing your profile pic you could hardly complain!!
In reply to Marc C:
Remember to reverse the process to untie, i.e. step over the loop, then pass it over your head. I forgot first time, passed it over my head then stepped over it again! Got in a right state, thought I was never going to escape.
> Right, I've got to do a bit shopping. But first got to undo this immaculately bowline-tied electrical flex I've got woven around the belt loop of my jeans
Remember to reverse the process to untie, i.e. step over the loop, then pass it over your head. I forgot first time, passed it over my head then stepped over it again! Got in a right state, thought I was never going to escape.
In reply to Removed User: Ha ha! I don't HAVE to - I simply slid the two loose ends of my electrical flex through the knot... what a cheat!
In reply to Marc C:
Try that with 60m of rope at the crag and then we will see who is laughing
Try that with 60m of rope at the crag and then we will see who is laughing
In reply to Removed User: Idle musing... wonder how strong and safe electrical flex would be for climbing?
In reply to Marc C:
Hmm, might hold your weight, but I don't think it would be very dynamic ?!
<goes in search of electric flex>
Hmm, might hold your weight, but I don't think it would be very dynamic ?!
<goes in search of electric flex>
In reply to Chris Tan.Clone:
I was think of gaffer tape, only problem would be getting it off the krabs again
> (In reply to Marc C)
>
> Don't even try using polybags as quickdraws! Trust me on this one
>
> Don't even try using polybags as quickdraws! Trust me on this one
I was think of gaffer tape, only problem would be getting it off the krabs again
In reply to Removed User: I believe that Mr. Tan has already had cause to use extra-sticky gaffer tape to remove a nasty case of crabs!
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