UKC

I have had my SPA for about a year now and am looking to develop my climbing sessions from just taking a group out climbing, teaching them how to belay etc, to actually really teaching them how to improve their technique and climb better.
The trouble is im having a bit of a mind block! Any one got any suggestions of how i can go about this (and yes i am expecting some abuse but i would apprieciate some serious answers please)
Thanks.

Maybe some one should remove this spam/viral marketing

In reply to amme: What sort of level of coaching are you aiming to provide, and have you done any before? Perhaps your best bet is to go on some coaching courses as a client and see how existing companies manage their courses and the sort of things they teach?

In reply to amme:

These two books are really well laid out, have great exercises indoor & out and have good clear photos to help.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0762725346/104-6924507-8497547?v=glance&am...

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Climbing-/dp/0762723130/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/...

Pete

In reply to Pete W:
Thanks pete, will definately look into those.

In reply to amme:

That's your call, but is the SPA really a realistic ticket to a coaching career? Have a look at some elite climbers who are coaches, and see if you should use the term 'coaching' lightly.

This is only a personal view, but as potential client, I'd be looking for really solid experience and talent from a coach -
I'm talking V10, or E8, or F8a - around those levels.

I'm not flaming you, and I mean this constructively, but perhaps it's slightly ambitious to take the SPA in a direction it's not really designed for.

In reply to amme:

sorry, forgot to add that perhaps you should put some details into your profile. That will help people to interpret how realistic your aim is.

In reply to AlXN:

Get a grip! SPA is for those supervising, or introducing people to climbing, therefore there should be a certain amount of coaching past the initial teaching. It may only be fundamental stuff (balance, footwork, using holds) but nonetheless it is coaching. Having a wide range of coaching skills makes it a better experience for everybody.

If you were just starting out playing football, would you only accept coaching from Alan Shearer?

In reply to mike swann:

Strong response, Mike.

The SPA is for supervising climbers on single pitch climbs. Obviously, this involves some basic guidance on how to get up the route. However, the OP is talking about 'coaching'. Perhaps that's just an unforunate choice of word.

I'd say that quite early on in a climber's career, the quality of coaching available, if any, can make a huge difference to his/her rate and direction of development.

I would certainly want to know more about a coach's personal ability and history before engaging one, however inexperienced I was, and with any discipline whatever. Just having the SPA ticket really doesn't say enough about coaching ability.

In reply to AlXN: As others have said, there is a big difference between 'performance coaching' (Neil Gresham, PlanetFear, etc) and tutoring novice climbers who want some basic advice about movement on rock, etc.

In reply to AlXN:


Quite right, however an individual's ability to coach is not dependant on the instructional qualification they have. My boss is a far better coach than I am in terms of the level of climbing students could achieve. I believe I'm better with the ones who find it less than easy (I think I'm more able to identify, and identify with, the problems they're having). Having said that, if the OP wants to enhance their coaching skills and make themselves better at their job, it should be applauded.

In reply to AlXN:

I should have added a sorry there. Steroids are making me buzz a bit! My apologies.

In reply to mike swann:

Absolutely agree with you there. That's another way of putting what I'm saying: experience and talent mean more than the 'ticket.' Of course, you can have experience, talent, and the ticket, but it doesn't follow.

In reply to mike swann:

No worries.

In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:


Good call, Nick. Totally agree.

In reply to AlXN: your talking crap. There are lots of good coaches out there in a lot of sports who haven't performed at the highest level. In athletics a lot of the best coaches didn't win international vests themselves but still coach the current generation of elite athletes.

The SPA's job if done properly has to include a fair bit of coaching. Yes a climber who hasn't climbed at a fair standard will not know enough to coach movement skills at the highest level but that doesn't need to be at the cutting edge grades you are talking about. Given that the way to do a move will change with your own reach, build and prefered skill sets then having a coach who can adapt to you is better than one who can make all the moves with style in an way you can't copy because your to tall to bunch up like that, or because you don't have the reach. To be honest having done the SPA training I was suprised how little was about coaching skills.

Beginers need coaching as much if not more than those performing at the top end. I spent most of last night trying to teach some basic movement skills to somebody who has just joined our club and would be happy to here any sugestions about how to get people to extend reach or to begin to read handholds or to use opposed pressure ect. Demonstration and repition can only take you so far, particularly with people who have a longer/shorter reach than you.

In reply to amme:

Obviously as people progress, the level of experience that their mentors have becomes more and more important. However, if simple good habits can be introduced at an early stage this can lay down the foundation for better progress later on, and so it's a good thing that new SPAs are taking an interest in these aspects. I went on the BMC FUNdamentals course recently which was aimed at SPAs who are likely to be introducing youngsters to the sport at an important time in their physical development. It was my first introduction to this and it left me with a lot to think about.

In reply to mike swann:

"I should have added a sorry there. Steroids are making me buzz a bit! My apologies."

so what ones you got anything exciting ?

In reply to davidwright:

Thanks for that. Very strongly felt, obviously.

In reply to lost1977:

Methylprednisolone. 1000mg I/V per day for 5 days. Dunno how it compares to anything else (lack of experience!) but it does it for me.

Vroooommmmm!

In reply to mike swann:

Wish prednisolone had made me buzz - rather than bloat up into a fat, bald, bastard...

In reply to mike swann:

whatever floats your boat they don't sound like much fun to me

In reply to AlXN:
Maybe 'coaching' was an unfortunate word to use but i am not looking at a coaching career as you put it.
All i meant was that i am hoping to improve my level of (dare i say instructing!)in my job, whats wrong with that?

I am a good solid climber and although i have only had my SPA a year or so i have been climbing for a lot longer. No i am not at elite climber status but surely that doesn't mean i can't 'coach' my groups and help them improve their climbing.

As davidwright mentioned, the actual SPA award doesn't cover much in the way of coaching but that doesn't mean that i shouldn't want to develop that part of my session.

In reply to davidwright:

I would agree with this, but I would add the rider that the minimum standard for taking SPA is set abysmally low. ( I have done it and in fact I set up the courses and taught for fifteen years where Mike teaches) I have always maintained that there should be a minimum climbing standard of around HVS and at least five years outside experience to take SPA.

Even in complete beginners you often find real talent at climbing and if you are unable to demonstrate to a reasonable standard (doesn't have to be 8a as has been mentioned)I think you fail as a coach even at that standard. I firmly believe that there should also be a decent qualification between SPA and MIA that enables you to take people up multi-pitch rock routes without having to do an intermediate qualification that involves dragging boy scouts up Snowdon.

In reply to Pete:

Thanks. That's a sensible and reasoned reply and I can live with this, but I'd say the SPA standard should be still higher - E1 5b.

I still don't think you can really call yourself a performance coach, at least in climbing, unless you can personally demonstrate mastery. Others have mentioned football and athletics, but I think climbing requires demonstrable mastery from a performance coach. Nowadays, that's a very elevated standard indeed. But this is just my opinion.

Happy to concede that an instructor of beginners, only, can operate with a lower level of personal ability.

I've said as much as I want to, so I'm leaving this thread to others now.

In reply to Pete: I believe the wide spread of customer requirements now makes the structure of, for want of a better term, mountain qualifications a bit out of date.

For entry level the SPA seems quite well positioned (with climbing wall supervisor being considered) and seems to me to meet the need it was designed for. Previously it would have meant an MIA taking a group out for a day's experience, which is really a bit over the top and he'd probably find it boring. As it is people can be trained and assessed to operate safely and successfully at their chosen level.

Personally, I'd like to see a more "modular" system where folks could take some fundamental assessment to set them on the road, with bolt-ons to enhance their skills as they need and as they become more knowledgable and experienced. Leading, multi-pitch and coaching, for instance, could be included as modules.

Naturally it would need a big re-think regarding assessments to ensure proper skills for each module, and I can see the need for the assessments to be a bit stressful to be sure the skills are really ingrained rather than just learnt.

That's not to say MIA/MIC should necessarily be achieveable in modules because the demands of the role are greater than just technical skills, and are, perhaps, more akin to "the right stuff".

I'm waffling a bit now.

Mike

In reply to lost1977:

Better than NOT having them.

In reply to amme:

Hey, no worries. I'm not out to discourage you at all. I think the word 'coaching' was an unfortunate choice for me.
Now that I understand what your aspirations are, I think there are plenty of ways you could improve your instructional ability. First up, I'd highly recommend going on the receiving end with 2 or three different people, all highly experienced in coaching. You'll learn how to structure a session, how to adapt your plans, how to give feedback...all sorts.

good luck with it!

In reply to AlXN:

I think this is way over the top for what the SPA is designed to be - MIA standard is VS 4c, Guides is E1 5b/5c.
Although the level at SPA is "severe", you have to be able to climb severe "well" and not bumble up it - likewise for the MIA at VS4c. I think severe is the right level for this entry level award.


Absolutley - but mastery at what level? Admittedly, there's very little I can teach an E5 leader, but there's plenty I can teach a VDiff leader -

In reply to mike swann:


I've talked about this often with folk who are excellent climbers, superb instructors but are SPA only becasue they have no interest in hill-walking and so getting an MIA is a problem.

However, thinking about it, I think for *uk climbing* the MIA is the right next step in the "ticket progession" - it does teach you/prepare you for a lot of soft skills and crag/mountain skills in a very (pinching a term right from the MLTUK here ) holistic way that I don't think you would get from a bolt-on. I think the award creates candidates with a much more all-round mountaineering/climbing experience that I don't think you would get with just bolt-ons and modules.

Davy

In reply to AlXN:

I think you're overlooking the fact that it is quite possible to have a strong grasp of the techniques and the ability to teach them to others without climbing at the high grades yourself. It would certainly be a major mistake to assume that the ability to climb hard grades meant that a climber had the first clue howto coach others in technique.

In reply to Davy Virdee:

Yes, there you have hit the nail right on the head. In fact I have always had an interest in hill walking, but I am not interested in taking groups out doing it. Leaves me cold. Yet, when I was instructing regularly, I would have liked to have taken small groups multi-pitching and, in fact did, but, strictly speaking you shouldn't with only SPA and I would have had no interest in doing all of that work for an MIA or more.

Further, the SPA does very little to tackle actual climbing instruction. I have often seen so-called 'instructors' on indoor walls who seem to be little more than 'babysitters' pointing people at routes whilst they look on. Then you see these same people out on crags with a dangerous lack of knowledge at belaying and placing runners. I think the whole system is in a bit of a 'time-warp' and is badly in need of a shake-up. Won't happen though.

In reply to Davy Virdee:

I'd tend to second that, I've done a lot of hill walking many years ago and would love to move on towards MIA but I just couldn't muster enough enthusiasm to log the "quality" mounatin days required for an ML these days. I know what I enjoy and arrived at that conclusion on the back of plenty of experience, I just really lack the "enthusiasm" for the silly logbook ticking required to get an ML ;(

In reply to timjones:

I agree. I don't see how climbing talent should have any bearing on coaching ability, or the ability to create a 'perfomance training prgramme'.

Jurgen Grobler, the GB mens rowing coach, is short and fat (ish) and his crews have won gold medals at every olympics since the early 70's.

In reply to Wingman@work:

No climbing talent may not have any bearing on coaching ability (witness Bobby Charlton and his failure at soccer management), but at least if you are a reasonable climber you probably have a good grounding and knowledge of the sport. When I did my SPA training there were people there who were little more than novices themselves. Putting the basic entry level up would at least stop that. Don't know anything about Jurgen Grobler, but I wouldn't mind betting that he has a lot of basic knowledge in the sport at the very least.

In reply to Davy Virdee:

Not arguing against the MIA/MIC route, I agree that for the "mountaineer", whether summer or winter, it's excellent. I do, though, think that there are some aspects of its syllabus which could usefully be bolted on to an SPA holder's continuous development. Ok, don't make it a quick-fix; require people to gain real experience working with those further along the track, and do training and assessment.

By the way, I noticed that the OP's "coaching" became "performance coaching" somewhere along the thread.

My experience of coaching in climbing and elsewhere is that the very high performers are good at coaching the natural talents, but often fail with mere mortals. Conversely, people who have struggled a bit themselves to achieve THEIR potential are often better able to coach other ordinary folks.

A chap I knew in Portsmouth started playing badminton in his 40s, and although he became very competent, was never a star. He did, however, have the ability to produce a massive number of very good juniors (national championship winners). He also had the wisdom to know when to pass them on to those that could take them further.

Mike

In reply to mike swann: Like Alison, several posts ago I too attended the BMC FUNdementals workshop, hosted by Dave Binnie the National Coach. His concept for the formation of the course was to allow those introducing children to the sport to develop basic movement as early on as possible. His research underlines that the earlier children are given the basic skills the more likely they are to develop to higher levels in later life. As such the SPA instructor has a key role to play in the development of climbing as a developing sport within this country often being the first contact that most people have with climbing experience. On my travels I have witnessed many good and quite a few bad instructors running crag sessions for young people, from both types I have learnt what sort of instructor I would aspire to be.

The debate over the leap from SPA to MIA is another debate that obviously stirs great emmotions amongst many and I will leave that well alone.

In reply to amme: Hi

God where to start. Firstly I like your thought that the SPA has provided you with a bunch of skills and you want to develop them. Continuing Professional Development is key in any industry and the BMC FUNdementals Courses offers some great tips into coach kids to perform, and when you should develop strength, stamina as well as basic technique.

Unlike BCU/WCA (thats the kayaking people) awards where there is a greater emphasis on coaching proper techniques from the word go. They actually see there basic coaches as key to the develpopment of there sport. Climbing is primarily about safety and the provision of a good day out.

The SPA and MIA to a certain extent have little in the way of coaching skills. The BCU do a coach processes course, which teaches you how to teach, I have done it but covers the thoery behind how people learn. This can be learnt through books as well though.

As for Astral Highways comment on you needing to be a great climber to be a great coach. One of the kayakers in the olypics was coached by there father because there wasn't a coach who specialised in his field. The father was an experienced Rugby coach and used his 'Coaching Skills' to coach his son.

Just because you climb V10 doesn't mean that you can communicate to someone how they can do the same. I haven't been on a Neil Gresham or PF coaching holiday, but I might to see how they coach people. I do remember Neil G offering a coaching cousre, to teach coaches.

In reply to Pete:
but at least if you are a reasonable climber you probably have a good grounding and knowledge of the sport.

I'm sorry i have to disagree - i have met a few people who easliy thug their way up HVS, but with whom i feel very uncomfortable climbing because they have a very few basic saftey skills or apreciation of the need for them, and seem to court epics. I'm much happier climbing with my Severe leader mates, and i know which ones i would trust to teach someone to climb.

In reply to Pete:

I would agree with that. Of those on my course most were basicly novices, having done little climbing themselves. One of those was climbing harder than me so an HVS lead would have not put him off, while it would deter me. I think that putting up the log book requirement would be better at weeding some of those people out. perhaps 80 routes led over at least 3 years with some multi-pitch leads might help detter the people who have done an indoor to out course and maybe an outdoor lead course and think that SPA is the next "step" in there climbing.


Don't know anything about Jurgen Grobler, but I wouldn't mind betting that he has a lot of basic knowledge in the sport at the very least.

I would have thought it essential for a good coach to have a lot of experiance in the sport but that need not be at a high level. It wouldn't suprise me to find that grobler had been a fair to middling club rower in his day, who tried coaching found he had a talent for it and has learnt a lot about rowing technique since becoming a coach. You don't need to be strong enough to do a 6c rockover to see that the guy trying it has his weight in the wrong place and will fall. All he knows is that he has the strength to do it but the move feals wrong. The coach provides the external view, as well as providing a training programe and a source of motivation and fresh ideas. The skill is finding exercises that will improve the things you are getting wrong.

In reply to Wingman@work:

Hey, this is yet another example that has nothing to do with climbing. It's just my opinion, but I think there is a need to demonstrate mastery as an effective climbing coach. I'll start to sound like a stuck record soon, but it's what I believe.

In reply to mark reeves:


And then there's the famous Williams sisters' father. What's crucial here was the reciprocal motivation of the coach and clients. A parental drive to nurture his offspring's huge talent was matched by his daughter's avowed
trust and determination to excel.

No hired coach could match that deal. One of the reasons why I favour a higher level of performance than some believe to be necessary is that this demonstrable mastery goes some way to making the coach credible, trustworthy, and inspiring.

It's stating the obvious that the parent-child relationship isn't symmetrically powerful. Parental coaches are already perceived as credible, trustworthy and inspiring - certainly if their relationship is good enough for their child to be happily coached by them.

Discuss.

In reply to AlXN:

Only if the main/only tool you have to coach is demonstration/repetion of moves. This is the main tool I use as a diving instructor but that is because you can't talk underwater. There are other tools avalible to a climbing coach, just as there are with other sports, and if that is the only one you used you would be a poor coach.

In reply to AlXN:


I agree that a coach needs to win the confidence of the people they are coaching but that can be done in other ways than by demonstrating a higher level of personal ability than that of the athlete or even a history of such achievment. In other sports coaches gain reputations by coaching succesful athletes. I suspect that could work in climbing and that you will eventually see coach/climber partnerships come up the way they do in other sports. It is just that the idea of coaching beyond very basic movement skills is still very new to climbing.

In reply to AlXN: I think you need to go away and have a look at how people learn / are coached by others. As others have pointed out your requirement that the coach themselves can perform at a high level is misplaced. Most coach's in most sports, even at the top end of the performance spectrum, cannot (and do not need to) do the moves / times that they are coaching others in.

Coaching is a complex activity, you seem to have taken a very simplistic view of it.

In reply to pat m:

I've already explained that I don't think climbing fits this model.

Indeed. We're agreed on that.

In reply to AlXN: FFS Are you always as stuborn as this. "You dont think". When the rest of the world disagrees with you, do you ever think there is the slightest chance you MAY be wrong and should do some further research instead of relying on your gut reactions.

In reply to amme:

if your based in the south (swanage / portland)

and want a guinipig to try training metods out on, repply to this post,

james

In reply to pat m:

Pat, thanks for the pep talk. Have I touched a nerve?

<FS Are you always as stuborn as this. "You dont think".> that sounds like a scolding parent, and is a waste of energy.

I don't want to take the moral high ground here, but at least my (stubborn, you call them) views are to do with the question raised by the OP, and are not a personal slur on someone posting here, as yours are. You don't even have a profile.

I don't get it. This is a forum for discussion; someone throws an idea in the air and we're supposed to be able to discuss it like grown ups - a bit like in a pub, but with no beer. Some will have entrenched views, and I can live with that. Fact is, nobody has been able to discredit my theory that there's something special about climbing that makes it necessary for a coach to demonstrate mastery.

Moral outrage about my thinking style is a waste of energy.

In reply to amme and others: Interesting thread. Timely too as I was just discussing with a climbing partner at the weekend that the BMC/MLTUK/BMG etc. etc really need to put together a series of National coaching qualifications that compliment but stand apart from SPA/MIA/Guide.

The outline idea:

Basic Coach - suitable for full-time climbing wall staff, with training and assessment on basic theory of coaching, methods, techniques and knowledge/familiarity of all standard climbing techniques. Follow on from SPA.

Intermediate Coach - demonstrate higher level of personal climbing, and complete basic training in anatomy/phsyiology etc. Trained to develope and advise on training plans. Possibly some element of route setting included. Assessed on the ablity to coach intermediate and advanced climbers both indoors and out. Possibly split into two modules - one covering indoors/bouldering/sport with a second (optional?) one to cover trad. Additional technical training element required for those not holding MIA etc. Aimed at climbing professionals whether full-time MIAs or senior climbing wall staff.

Advanced Coach - Formal qualifcation in Sports Science (plenty already exists so no need to re-invent the wheel). Assessed on performance coaching at highest levels and ability to demonstrate/coach all advanced climbing techniqies. Assessed on delivering training to basic coaches. Aimed at people who will spent the majority of their time coaching as oppossed to instructing skills or supervising groups.

I think given the proliferation of climbing walls, there desperately needs to be some formal coaching system put in place otherwise there is no real way for the sport to develope and for the quality of instructors (and hence climbers) to improve.

Thoughts?

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Mark,
That's a very thought-provoking suggestion. I think it's a great idea. People could more select in line with their expectations and experience, and find an appropriately experienced and accredited coach.

As the basic coach would be a follow-on from the SPA, it wouldn't undermine that excellent qualification, but the SPA would become a stepping-stone to coaching, just at arm's reach away.

Only caveat is that some people are inherently suited to coaching at higher levels, both because they've already been doing so and because of their personal climbing histories. I'd say it would be ludicrous to push everyone down the ticket route at the lower levels, and you'd have to have some kind of exemption panel. Thoughts?

In reply to AlXN:
Hi Astral,
I think you put forward an interesting case and am genuinely interested in why you think coaching climbing is different to coaching, say, slalom canoeing or golf?
By way of direct example - Richard Fox(world champion canoe slalom K1) and Colin Mongomery (a nae bad golfer) both had the same coach - I know this because the individual concerned was my college tutor. The coach was not very good at either paddling or golf, yet he has an acknowledged coaching talent that produces the goods. What's your logic for saying a climbing coach therefore has to be doing E8/F8b/V12?
Genuinely interested....
Andrew Mallinson

In reply to AlXN:

I like the idea, however while the basic coach should be aimed at the level of an SPA I would prefer to see the two sides kept sperate. It would for instance be useful for the coaching qualifications to be accesible to club climbers for whom SPA is not realy useful. My worry about this would be that it would encourage the "club instructors should have SPA" attitude that is already begining to hobble some uni clubs. To be honest a basic coaching course would be of more use to uni clubs than SPA.

In reply to AlXN:

Which would nicely introduce the idea of additional qualifications for those that want them. It's been clear from the OP onwards that there is a gap between instructional qualifications, in terms of technical safety etc, and actual performance (not necessarily high performance) coaching from beginner to high-performer.


The highest levels of coaching are an odd world. Because many of its exponents are ex-high performers themselves they often have no formal qualification in the sport. There does need to be an understanding of what each level is able to do, not necessarily is "qualified" to do. For example, I wouldn't expect, say, Neil Gresham to have to go off and do some mountain qualification simply to allow him to be a National (or whatever) coach.

All round a very sound suggestion.

Cheers,

Mike

In reply to barbeg1975: Where is the line between technical coaching and mentoring?

I think Astral Highway is really talking about coaching in the purely technical sense where he has a strong arguement where as in your last example you are really tlaking about long term one-to-one mentoring of individuals who are already more than sufficiently competent technically.

For coaching bouldering, I can't believe a non-climber would be very good - however when it comes to implementing a training programme, red-pointing a hard project or climbing hard trad, pyschological issues play such an important part that generic coaching techniques are much more applicable.

Because climbing is very immature compared with other sports, for the vast majority of people there is vast scope for them to improve their physical technique before they need to start working on the purely mental aspects that are holding them back. Therefore I think that strangely the better the climber the less pertinent the climbing ability of the coach becomes!

In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Hi Mark,
I believe you are correct to identify that there are numerous strands to "coaching/mentoring" that require different approaches depending on the individual and circumstances. The key skill I feel here is to recognise the inhibitors and therefore apply the appropriate actions to overcome the barrier - this may require both coaching (as in physical skills) and mentoring (as in psycological skills) although they are undoubtedly linked and hence there will be some overlap.
I agree that "climbing" is way behind in terms of coaching compared to other "sports" but I also feel this is where the biggest gains can be made. "It's all in the head!"....
Best Regards,
Andrew Mallinson

In reply to Mark Stevenson:


Bloody good post!

Mick

In reply to barbeg1975:

Thanks Barbeg,

I think my argument that there's something special about climbing is based on the premiss that coaching takes place within the confines of the performance area - a climbing wall, a piece of rock, whatever.

In one commonly-observed coaching model, the coach observes the performer, then offers to do the same set of actions in a way that is taken for granted to be 'better.' The bigger the gap between the performance of the demonstrator and the observer, the better, since the observer will readily be able to critique the coach if he/she exhibits any performance flaws. It's not uncommon for a frustrated coachee to say 'you do it, then.' Whether that's in anger or put forward as a plea to show him/her something he doesn't quite understand, well, that makes no difference.

In some - perhaps many - cases, the person being coached is more inclined to trust the coach if they demonstrate intuitive understanding (mastery) of technique, economy of movement, finesse, endurance, strength and so on.

This argument is relevant in some paradoxical situations, as follows. Thesedays, it's not unlikely that someone climbing a single pitch on a bottom-rope outside might be able to do tech 5b or tech 5c moves inside or out - harder, even. If they boulder indoors, they might even have English 6b strength, with or without matching technique. They might just not have got round to leading (yet) or might not be inclined to, ever. How is a VS4b coach going to show them how to do the same moves with greater economy of effort? It's not necessarily the case that the SPA will have had to lead the route to equip it - that could have been done from the top of the crag. Thoughts?

In reply to AlXN:

Doesn't work like that. None of the England coaches can (or ever could) take a free kick as well as Beckham but they can still analysis how he does it and get his technique better. That is a large part of skill coaching.

I got taught to hurdle (for steplechasing) by a coach I never saw jump a hurdle in his life. When he said get my weight further forward and I did it the jump felt eaiser, when he told me to push off a barrier forward rather than upward I landed futher off and carried more momentum into the run than I had before. I trusted him because the things he told me to do worked. Every top athlete in a technical discapline (more or less everything except flat distance
running) will have a coach who gives them day to day advice on performce. They never get to a stage where they leave their technique alone. That technical coaching goes on in the performance environment that is at a long jump pit, with hurdles, on a start line ect (it is so helpful it is banned during compertion). Yes some coaching will involve non performace tasks but only so as to develop skills that are needed.

In climbing there is a problem in that a particular set of moves can be tackled in different ways that require different levels of strength, flexability and balence. Within the last 3 weeks I rember being shown how to do one set of moves in a way i couldn't repeate because I didn't have enough finger strength. I eventualy solved the problem by using a flag to counter balance a reach. Much more helpful would have been to tell me I was falling off because i was starting the reach before getting my weight over the required foothold. That was the common factor between the two solutions. In the same way I find it hard to demonstrate technique to people who are much shorter or taller than me as the way I solve a problem is too reachy or too compressed for them.

To be honest I would want a coach to have slightly less strength, slightly less endurance and slightly less reach than me but still be able to climb harder, for the demonstration/repetion model, you discribe to work. If somebody is 6b strong with poor technique then an experianced VS4b coach can still show them how to get the best grip on a hold or how to get their weight over a hold before moving on. Partly by using easier ground or by providing feedback on attempts or by showing them how to grip a hold from feet on the ground or from off problem holds. Needs more thought than demonstration/repetion but could still work. I still think the attitude to coaching being shown by some here is very blinkered as to what it involves.

In reply to AlXN: Ok - think about competitive gymnastics, at an Olympic level the coach will not be able to do the moves that the competitor does, but without the Coach’s input nor can the gymnast!

At the most levels a Coach does not need to demonstrate a move, they need to be able to describe it and break it down into its smaller elements to enable the athlete to understand and achieve it.

And in reply to Barbeg – the Coach you are referring to would be Hugh Mantle, a fine example of a high performance Coach, who could not do the tasks himself, I take it your from IMM?

In reply to AlXN:

I think a fundamental error in your thinking is the belief that climbers will trust a coach because they climb better than the student. In practice you are only really likely to trust a coach when they start delivering improvements in their own performance, a good coach will be able to do this without even setting foot on the wall IMHO.

Regards

Tim Jones

In reply to timjones:

Food for thought, certainly. I think there are many possible ways of thinking about coaching. I don't personally think that a coach 'delivers' improvements. I think improvements are always driven by the person being coached, who 'captures' something from the coach. It's not as passive as that, but it's certainly not just about the coach delivering. IMO, of course.

Also, it's possible to trust a coach at the outset, on the basis of his/her reputation alone.

In reply to AlXN:

Here's Neil Gresham's take on it:

http://www.climbingmasterclass.com/coachingcourses.htm

"We don’t want to make these courses too elitist," says Neil, "but how are you going to demonstrate perfect steep rock technique to a client if you can’t climb French 6c with relative ease?"

I like Mark's post. It seems laudable of the original poster to want to improve his coaching skills, but I can see where you're coming from too. I guess because climbing does not have the same structure as say, athletics, no one's really tried the model of coaches not having a high level of ability in what they're coaching.

In reply to Wibble Wibble:

Fair point, but it pre-supposes that a demonstration of the objective has to actually be in the same circumstances.

Mike

In reply to AlXN:

You're exactly right the improve ment comes from the climber, but the coach has to be able to interact with the climber to inspire and prompt the climber to greater heights. No pun intended


Its certainly possible to trust a coach from the outset but I would suggest this trust would come from their reputation as a coach rather than their own personal climbing ability. We got a bit of coaching from Gaz Parry on the FUNdamentals course, he was an incredible coach IMO but this had far more to do with the way he delivered the coaching than his own personal climbing ability.

regards

Tim Jones

Thought I might be able to add something to this discussion, which seems to be debating what makes a good climbing coach, and whether a climbing coach needs necessarily to be a high level climber.

Five years ago I approached Neil Gresham with a view to making climbing coaching far more accessible that it was then (to be honest, back then the term hardly existed). During much of that time we developed what we thought was climbing coaching. Currently I work on a freelance basis, am just finishing my first book, and write for Summit. So that's where I'm coming from.

I strongly believe that climbing coaching is very different to coaching in other sports, simply because climbing is far more complicated. The ability to demonstrate is essential, and demonstrations cannot involve any bad practice - they have to be perfect - and that takes a long time to accomplish. A good climbing coach should be operating at the highest levels, and I will try to explain why:

Firstly, when giving advice, you have to be 100% confident that what you're saying is correct, you can't just suggest that maybe this will work, and maybe such and such could be the problem, you are getting paid for answers, and need to have them ready. If a client is climbing, say, HVS, and wants to climb E1 and E2, then it would be impossible to say they have it within them, if you yourself had not climbed at that level - also a large part of coaching is in recommending certain routes, how could you do that if you've not done the routes?

I've had clients move up from VS/HVS to E4 very quickly, again, if their aspirations were beyond my personal level, my inexperience would show through, and I wouldn't be able to decide whether they should be getting on certain routes - and it would be fairly obvious that my confidence in them would be slipping.

When I was a beginner, an occasional partner of mine was an accountant, once, he told me that the vast majority of his work could be done by individuals with far less education, training, and experience than himself - but once in a while something would come up that did draw on that training, and would save his client a lot of money - and that is why they were paying a professional. Same in the medical profession, how often does a GP draw on the years spent in medical school learning the names of every inch of anatomy, but once in a while, someone is very glad they they spotted that the rash they have is meningitis and not a reaction to their fabric softener.

I'll finish with a real example. I was coaching a chap who seemed to have terrible technique. We would go over and over certain steep rock techniques, then he'd get on this move on a route, and wouldn't do it. The obvious answer, which fooled us for a while, was that we hadn't explained the technique well enough, it would have been easy to leave it there. However, what it actually was, was a lack of finger strength, when we put all our effort into holding onto a hold, it is almost impossible to think clearly, and so the climber was unable to use a newly learnt technique. If you've spent ten years training at your limit, you learn that when you're at the limit of your strength, your technique suffers, I could imagine an inexperienced coach would not have seen beyond the obvious, and would have focussed their efforts on repeating technique lessons, when in fact what was needed were tips on building up strength endurance.

Hope that this hasn't gone on too long, I am a bit of an evangelist when it comes to climbing coaching. It really works incredibly well, but it's taken me half my lifetime to be able to do this, there are no short cuts.

In reply to amme:
I have my SPA, and do quite a bit of work with kids, most of whom already know the basics, how to belay etc. I only lead VS outside, 6b inside, but I can see how someone can make a move easier, what their weaknesses are, explain how to use handholds properly. The reason I probably don't climb harder is partly due to lack of strength and partly because of poor technique, and wrong mental attitude outside. Lots of this could probably be corected by coaching, however at the momment I lack time and money to do it, it's very hard to coach yourself. Lots of walls up and down tha country have some form of kids clubs, quite often many members know the basics, the work of the SPA coaching these sessions is often to improve the kids climbing, often just having someone standing at the bottom being encouraging, telling them they can do it is enough to cause massive improvements in what they can acheive.

The best thing for me about teaching climbing is seeing kids confidence increase, they often don't acheive at regular sports, may not be successful at other sports, climbing allows them to acheive, and having someone who believes in them allows them to develop confidence and self worth.

Going back to the OPs question, if you can't see where someone's having trouble, then rather than having a coaching course to improve your own climbing (good climber does not mean good coach) you need to do a course where you see others climb and get taught how to spot their problems, and then correct them.

In reply to amme:

you could try : http://www.ukcoachingcertificate.org/

In reply to pat m:
Many years ago, yes IMM - you?

In reply to Katie Weston:

Thanks for that, my aim was to get advice on how to improve my instructing rather than my climbing,(which i am more than happy with) but a whole new debate on being a good climber to be a good coach opened up. There does seem to be a gap in the system for wanting to improve your coaching ability though which i find quite intresting.
Thanks to endless winter as well, will check out that link.

In reply to Adrian Berry:
Hi Adrian,
Some interesting thougts there...some I agree with, some not...
You say that climbing is far more complicated than other sports - how so? We are all born with the tools to climb and all sports have a mental aspect to them, so I don't follow you logic here...
I do not agree that a coach has to be operating at the highest levels as a coach can never be 100% certain that what he is saying is correct, as what is correct for one person may not be correct for another. In your example at the end the clear inhibitor to your client was him passing the peak of his arousal curve preventing physical performance. This is to do with mental coaching, not physically being able to climb hard climbs - one could therefore argue that the knowledge to diagnose this bears no relation to a coach's ability to climb.
It's an interesting issue, which incidentally, I believe has no coverage in any serious way in any of the NGB awards.
Good to read your input.
Best Regards,
Andrew Mallinson

In reply to Adrian Berry:

I have seen an SPA instructor - who could barely climb VS - try to coach newbies in a wall introduction.

It was not just embarrassing to watch... his advice on technique also sucked big time.

In reply to SARS: Let's also remember that in every walk of life there are "qualified" people who really aren't very good at it.

Just go out in your car!

Cheers,

Mike

In reply to SARS:

I agree with Sars here - for once.

Overheard an instructor at mile end say this a few years ago on being asked how important strength was:

"you dont have to be able to do a pull up to be a good climber.
I can't do one and im a good climber".

Maybe i missheard but it was sufficient to make me fall off in laughter.

In reply to Jeff25:

Hmmm. One of our regulars climbs 7b and can manage to do.....2 (just).

One of the crucial (and hardest) things with coaching any physical activity is separating what is normally regarded as the "best" way to do things from the individual's strengths, weaknesses, and personal attributes.

Cheers,

Mike

In reply to Adrian Berry:

Some very interesting points there.

Don't you think its possible to have a mastery of a wide repertoire of moves and techniques without being able to put in the climbing time to develop enough stamina to string the moves together to climb high grades yourself?

I'd tend to draw a distinction between a coach who can teach the moves and a training advisor who would be better qulaified to use personal experince of climbs to effectively draw up a training plan of routes to aim for.

Regards

Tim Jones

In reply to Jeff25:

Whilst he may have been a bit cocky to state that he was a good climber, the statement itself isn't far wrong IMHO.

It could well be the way of overcoming a mental block for a climber who was worried about a lack of arm strength limiting their performance and therefore failing to realise their potential by not concentrating on good footwork.

Regards

Tim Jones

In reply to amme: I think that there are plenty of people out there who are great climbers, but who don't have a clue how to coach because they can't communicate well enough, this is true of lots of different things in life. When I started helping to coach beginners with my uni climbing club, I found it easy enough as it wasn't so long ago that I had struggled with the same moves and remembered how it felt to be stuck on a greasy hold with little trust in the rope... sometimes someone who can climb at the higher grades forgets that feeling of fear on an 'easy' route.

In reply to timjones:
In fact, it could have been very good coaching!

In reply to Jeff25:
Katie Brown famously couldn't do a single pull up when she first climbed 8a.

In reply to amme:
Many moons ago when I was young and you were (possibly - put a profile up) even younger, you asked about how to improve your coaching.
Since no-one else has mentioned it, you might find Dave MacLeod's OCC blog - http://www.onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/ - useful. Dave's articles on his own site are good too. Will Gadd has some stuff on his site - http://www.gravsports.com/ - that's a bit vague but worth a look.
Who needs experience when you've got the internet, eh?

In reply to mike swann:

Thanks Mike, I would definitely if it wasn't always raining in this infernal country. Aaah well, only two weeks left here - thankfully.

I agree, there are bad qualifieds in every walk of life - it's not a good excuse though.

I don't think you have to be a 'great' f8+ climber to be able to offer good advice, however, being as cr*p as this chap was - and then offering newbies footwork advice - is plain wrong.

In reply to SARS: 'Course what we're really considering here is a coaching scheme, similar to what many sports have, with a range of abilities. So we might have Basic, able to introduce the entry level skills, Intermediate, covering more advanced topics, and Advanced.

Then the real "professional" coach able to work with those who might be climbing at the cutting edge.

The thing with this sort of approach is that, at least theoretically, there is no difference in message across the levels. What a Basic coach would be teaching is exactly the same as the top level, just not so much of it.

The disadvantage is that sometimes the Basic coach will try to get people so "by the book" perfect that they coach out the individual's natural skills.

Coaching is such a complex thing!

Cheers,

Mike