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I was at Curbar with a friend a few days ago, umming and ahhing about whether or not to have an onsight crack at Profit of Doom (I didn't, in the end. Thankfully, it started drizzling). We were feeling quite queezy looking up at Elder Arete and started discussing the viability of someone doing it one day. That evening, we noticed it is mentioned as a 'next great problem' at the end of Hard Grit, which seemed very appropriate!
Does anyone know if anyone has given it a go, or might be anywhere close to cracking it? Surely, you'd have to be technically brilliant, and have vast, radar dome-sized, titanium alloy balls to even think about it seriously.
Anyone?
This brings me to my next question for all you grit officianados. People keep saying things like 'it's the biggest unclimbed feature on grit', or 'it's the last, great, unclimbed arete/butress on grit', when things like Elder Arete still sit there smirking, untouched.
And what's all this about 'back in 1946, so and so climbed a classic last great problem at...'? How does that work?
Does anyone know if anyone has given it a go, or might be anywhere close to cracking it? Surely, you'd have to be technically brilliant, and have vast, radar dome-sized, titanium alloy balls to even think about it seriously.
Anyone?
This brings me to my next question for all you grit officianados. People keep saying things like 'it's the biggest unclimbed feature on grit', or 'it's the last, great, unclimbed arete/butress on grit', when things like Elder Arete still sit there smirking, untouched.
And what's all this about 'back in 1946, so and so climbed a classic last great problem at...'? How does that work?
In reply to Dom Orslerq:
John Dunne is very close. A number of people have been on it. Apparantly, word on the street, is that its not as hard as it looks.... Hmmmm
John Dunne is very close. A number of people have been on it. Apparantly, word on the street, is that its not as hard as it looks.... Hmmmm
In reply to Dom Orslerq: As climbing matures, people eyes look from what was seen as impossible at the time to what seems impossible now. Ages ago something like Quietus would have been seen as impossible, now it is commonplace. At the same time Crypt Trip, for example, 10m away wouldnt even be regarded as a potential route, just a blank expanse. And so on and so on.
Elder Arete has been regarded as an LGP for a long time - a few hotshots have been trying it on and off. It has been discussed here before.
Elder Arete has been regarded as an LGP for a long time - a few hotshots have been trying it on and off. It has been discussed here before.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Perhaps it might not be technically as hard as it looks, but there is no doubt about how scary it must be. It overhangs a fair bit and certainly doesn't appear to accept gear from about 15ft up to the top, which must be 40 - 50ft? I'd guess it was more serious than Equilibrium.
E11 on grit?!
To me it seems to make Knocking on Heaven's Door look like a pretty safe route! But then, I probably won't do either.
Perhaps it might not be technically as hard as it looks, but there is no doubt about how scary it must be. It overhangs a fair bit and certainly doesn't appear to accept gear from about 15ft up to the top, which must be 40 - 50ft? I'd guess it was more serious than Equilibrium.
E11 on grit?!
To me it seems to make Knocking on Heaven's Door look like a pretty safe route! But then, I probably won't do either.
In reply to Chris Fryer: Agreed. It inspired just such a conversation between me and my mate. What seemed impossible even 20 years ago is now the state of the art. It's scary to think of this still being the case and to try top imagine what might be done in 20 years' time.
In reply to Dom Orsler:
Not that scary, surely? You simply ask your sponsor to provide one of those handy size 17 Friends modelled in The Big Issue, plug that into EC itself at about half-height, where the arete starts to overhang, position your photographer accordingly, and away you go. 5c territory is only ten feet or so away according to Adrian Berry, although I will agree that covering the intervening ground looks a little awkward.
Not that scary, surely? You simply ask your sponsor to provide one of those handy size 17 Friends modelled in The Big Issue, plug that into EC itself at about half-height, where the arete starts to overhang, position your photographer accordingly, and away you go. 5c territory is only ten feet or so away according to Adrian Berry, although I will agree that covering the intervening ground looks a little awkward.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
No way, dude! You can't aproach it from EC! That wouldn't be right! It has to be a direct line in from below, to maintain the aesthetic. There doesn't look to me all that much gear from below from about 15-20ft on, although I'd need to look at it again.
If you did that, you could, surely, do the same thing on KOHD, which would make it well safe, and certainly not E9.
No way, dude! You can't aproach it from EC! That wouldn't be right! It has to be a direct line in from below, to maintain the aesthetic. There doesn't look to me all that much gear from below from about 15-20ft on, although I'd need to look at it again.
If you did that, you could, surely, do the same thing on KOHD, which would make it well safe, and certainly not E9.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Wa hey!! Another ground up project for me then. Elder Arete starting with the crack.
G
Wa hey!! Another ground up project for me then. Elder Arete starting with the crack.
G
In reply to Adam Lincoln: When he does, could you make sure someone is there with a video camera, hanging on KOHD? I'd really like to see it on film, although the ending might need to be censured.
In reply to Dom Orsler:
Anyone think they can run across the KOHD slab fast enough to jump for the big holds towards the top of the arete?
Go on. I'll give you a quid.
Anyone think they can run across the KOHD slab fast enough to jump for the big holds towards the top of the arete?
Go on. I'll give you a quid.
In reply to TimB:
Well TimB, wouldn't you know but that's exactly how Mr Dawes was trying it. John Dunne threw up a pic of this project and said he was close to doing all the moves on it, at which point mini JD piped up "John, do you think you have to run along the slab to get on the arete?"
"No, that's bollocks Johnny."
So there you go!
If you do it this way then you start up Elder crack, so was Dunne who had done most of the hard section statically. I can't see for the life of me why you wouldn't start up Elder Crack, sorry Dom...
Well TimB, wouldn't you know but that's exactly how Mr Dawes was trying it. John Dunne threw up a pic of this project and said he was close to doing all the moves on it, at which point mini JD piped up "John, do you think you have to run along the slab to get on the arete?"
"No, that's bollocks Johnny."
So there you go!
If you do it this way then you start up Elder crack, so was Dunne who had done most of the hard section statically. I can't see for the life of me why you wouldn't start up Elder Crack, sorry Dom...
In reply to NeilK:
Elder Crack into the arete is the only way people are trying. It would be a bit of an eliminate to stay out of the crack, ey Dom?
Elder Crack into the arete is the only way people are trying. It would be a bit of an eliminate to stay out of the crack, ey Dom?
In reply to Adam Lincoln: are you coming along for drinks tonight adam? it could get messy!
In reply to Adam Lincoln: excellent, excellent... the more the merrier!
In reply to ST:
If by 'the gear' you mean 'the ability to climb ten feet of English 7a/b moves, then you bet your life I'd try it. As it is, I think I'll leave it to those more able. But there are waaaayyyyyy scarier grit projects around than this: t'will be one of the safer ones.
If by 'the gear' you mean 'the ability to climb ten feet of English 7a/b moves, then you bet your life I'd try it. As it is, I think I'll leave it to those more able. But there are waaaayyyyyy scarier grit projects around than this: t'will be one of the safer ones.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
A few I can name:
Route: Blank wall right of Ulysees
Candidates: The Dawes seems the only person trying it and optimistic enough to persevere! Apparantly hes getting fit again, ready for some hard grit this winter
Route: Smiling Wall
Candidates Strong Steve/Mr moon if he can pad the landing with enough pads!
A few I can name:
Route: Blank wall right of Ulysees
Candidates: The Dawes seems the only person trying it and optimistic enough to persevere! Apparantly hes getting fit again, ready for some hard grit this winter
Route: Smiling Wall
Candidates Strong Steve/Mr moon if he can pad the landing with enough pads!
In reply to Adam Lincoln: One of the last great lines that looks possible is the scooped groove right of Boot Hill (but if anybody does it you'll probably find that Harding claims it for him or one of his mates in 1950!)
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
I suppose what I mean is that if you can start up EC for the arete, then why not do the same for the slab (KOHD) to the right? I might be talking bollocks, but wouldn't this make KOHD much safer?
You could argue the same case for Parthian Shot. Why not stuff Tower Crack (?) to the right, with gear and traverse in for the 'hard' bit at the top? In this way, you could argue that all routes with a direct, 'bottom-to-top' line are eliminates.
I suppose what I mean is that if you can start up EC for the arete, then why not do the same for the slab (KOHD) to the right? I might be talking bollocks, but wouldn't this make KOHD much safer?
You could argue the same case for Parthian Shot. Why not stuff Tower Crack (?) to the right, with gear and traverse in for the 'hard' bit at the top? In this way, you could argue that all routes with a direct, 'bottom-to-top' line are eliminates.
In reply to Dom Orsler:
The natural line on KOHD os straight up. Just the bottom bit before you get to the peg is E7. This is what contributes to the final grade. The traverse out to the peg slot and friend to back it up is very airy! This gear is sufficient to protect the crux, and higher, if your belayer runs. And yes, it has been tested! The result: A 50ft whipper! 4 Times...
The natural line on KOHD os straight up. Just the bottom bit before you get to the peg is E7. This is what contributes to the final grade. The traverse out to the peg slot and friend to back it up is very airy! This gear is sufficient to protect the crux, and higher, if your belayer runs. And yes, it has been tested! The result: A 50ft whipper! 4 Times...
In reply to Adam Lincoln: Fair enough. But isn't the natural line for Elder Arete straight up from the bottom to top? It looks like one, big, separate feature, so shouldn't this be the case rather than traversing across from the crack?
In reply to Dom Orsler: Re Parthian Shot: Glad I'm not the only one who's wondered about that!
In reply to Dom Orsler:
Dom, are you suggesting laybacking off the left hand side of Elder Crack to preserve purity for the upper section?
I suspect the hardest parts of doing that would be not bridging the crack, and avoiding questions about your jamming ability.
Dom, are you suggesting laybacking off the left hand side of Elder Crack to preserve purity for the upper section?
I suspect the hardest parts of doing that would be not bridging the crack, and avoiding questions about your jamming ability.
In reply to Marc Chrysanthou:
Er, hullo? People DO put gear in the HVS when they do Parthian. Since this wouldn't keep you off the ground, they then unclip that rope higher up, once the gear on the flake's in, to avoid being flipped upside down by it higher up. See Seb Grieve in HG for the procedure.
Er, hullo? People DO put gear in the HVS when they do Parthian. Since this wouldn't keep you off the ground, they then unclip that rope higher up, once the gear on the flake's in, to avoid being flipped upside down by it higher up. See Seb Grieve in HG for the procedure.
In reply to TimB: I think I need to look at it or a picture of it again, as I seem to remember the crack being further to the right than that. I suspect I'm wrong, due to the number of well-informed people that seem to think starting in the crack would be the best way to do it.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: The cheatin' scoundrels! No wonder I got put off having a go - too much of a purist, me....
In reply to Dom Orsler:
Check out the picture of Midget doing Elder on this site. He's laybacking the arete to avoid arm jamming the crux (sneaky). The lower section of the "arete" can be seen below him, forming the left hand side of the crack
http://www.darkpeakimages.co.uk/main.htm
Check out the picture of Midget doing Elder on this site. He's laybacking the arete to avoid arm jamming the crux (sneaky). The lower section of the "arete" can be seen below him, forming the left hand side of the crack
http://www.darkpeakimages.co.uk/main.htm
In reply to John Gillott:
So then, no touching the right hand arete of the crack despite the fact it's about 12 inches away. Definitely a bit pedantic.
G
So then, no touching the right hand arete of the crack despite the fact it's about 12 inches away. Definitely a bit pedantic.
G
In reply to Dom Orslerq: Seeing as mats etc are de rigour these days - Why doesn't someone build a pile of cardboard boxes upwards just behind the iron fingered hero? just like in hollywood. If mats don't effect grades then why should this?
In reply to Anth.: or even tensiuon a rope across for pro a la Ben Bradsby?
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Know if Johnny (or anyone) is getting close to Wizard's Ridge? Doesn't the wall right of Ulyssess' have no holds? I suppose that wouldn't stop the little monkey. It'd be good to see him put up another hard line.
Mind you, when i met him told me that was trying to get back into climbing because he hadn't done any for a while.
Know if Johnny (or anyone) is getting close to Wizard's Ridge? Doesn't the wall right of Ulyssess' have no holds? I suppose that wouldn't stop the little monkey. It'd be good to see him put up another hard line.
Mind you, when i met him told me that was trying to get back into climbing because he hadn't done any for a while.
In reply to Roberto: I imagine, jackie chan style big run up and keep going is the preferred technique!
In reply to Roberto:
As close as you can get without leading it I suppose. As for blank wall R,O,U no holds but J seems to have the vision to get up it
As close as you can get without leading it I suppose. As for blank wall R,O,U no holds but J seems to have the vision to get up it
In reply to Jon Greengrass:
Of course, using this technique, sticking to the first foothold is a must unless you fancy leaving a Wile-E-Coyote shaped hole in the rock.
Of course, using this technique, sticking to the first foothold is a must unless you fancy leaving a Wile-E-Coyote shaped hole in the rock.
In reply to Adam Lincoln: What, you mean he has cleanly top roped the whole thing? He certainly wasn't making many clean moves at the time of filming Hard Grit, so if he has cleanly TRed it, hats off.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
He has(so he says) done all the moves, and is working on linking them...
He has(so he says) done all the moves, and is working on linking them...
In reply to anonymouse: there aren't any foot holds you use your forward momentum to generate a friction force and run up the blank wall, Qusetion is, is there a big enough run up?
In reply to Jon Greengrass: Actually my bets for the first free ascent are on one of those Alsatian? dogs the police use.
In reply to Roberto:
Unfortunately, none of these people actually climb anymore. The Past Masters have made way for....er..umm..
Unfortunately, none of these people actually climb anymore. The Past Masters have made way for....er..umm..
In reply to Jon Greengrass:
I'm aware of the technique. I was just sharing a personal experience extrapolated to the supersonic speeds you would need to scale that wall. I only knocked a front tooth out.
> (In reply to anonymouse) there aren't any foot holds you use your forward momentum to generate a friction force and run up the blank wall, Qusetion is, is there a big enough run up?
I'm aware of the technique. I was just sharing a personal experience extrapolated to the supersonic speeds you would need to scale that wall. I only knocked a front tooth out.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
If I recall...
JD says he linked 2 sections in 1995. He never did the impossible move to get onto the first holds (maybe because its impossible). Next generation - whoever they are!
If I recall...
JD says he linked 2 sections in 1995. He never did the impossible move to get onto the first holds (maybe because its impossible). Next generation - whoever they are!
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
I strongly suspect that JD knows and always has known that he will never get anywhere close to leading WR. I also suspect that he got it included in Hard Grit because it looks like (and probably is) the hardest project around and makes him look like the King of Grit (which, in my opinion, he kind of still is). Like I said, if you watch Hard Grit and count how many actual moves he makes cleanly, it's, like, possibly two, near the top, and that's it! Out of how many? Thirty?
With some tricky editing, I think I could have looked as close to getting that route sussed as him!
I strongly suspect that JD knows and always has known that he will never get anywhere close to leading WR. I also suspect that he got it included in Hard Grit because it looks like (and probably is) the hardest project around and makes him look like the King of Grit (which, in my opinion, he kind of still is). Like I said, if you watch Hard Grit and count how many actual moves he makes cleanly, it's, like, possibly two, near the top, and that's it! Out of how many? Thirty?
With some tricky editing, I think I could have looked as close to getting that route sussed as him!
In reply to Dom Orsler:
I hope I'm not destroying any kind of "idol" here, but Johnny Dawes has not linked either of these projects. Nor will he ever do them, unless he finds some way of sneakily "editing" real life! Doing a few moves does not mean he is close to doing it (blimey Adam!). However the fact that he has the vision and motivation to see that these things will one day be possible is a reason to admire the man in itself.
I hope I'm not destroying any kind of "idol" here, but Johnny Dawes has not linked either of these projects. Nor will he ever do them, unless he finds some way of sneakily "editing" real life! Doing a few moves does not mean he is close to doing it (blimey Adam!). However the fact that he has the vision and motivation to see that these things will one day be possible is a reason to admire the man in itself.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
It's gonna take a damn sight more than vision to get up that wall Adam!
Has anyone been trying the scoop near Boothill at Cratcliffe or is that line, like the wall R O U just pie in the sky.
Also what happened to the line up the lefthand side of the Parologism roof at the Roaches, i know Robin Barker was very close to it 2-3 years agao (think some holds may have snapped but not sure) - its a stunning line, come on Adam, hop to it
> As for blank wall R,O,U no holds but J seems to have the vision to get up it
It's gonna take a damn sight more than vision to get up that wall Adam!
Has anyone been trying the scoop near Boothill at Cratcliffe or is that line, like the wall R O U just pie in the sky.
Also what happened to the line up the lefthand side of the Parologism roof at the Roaches, i know Robin Barker was very close to it 2-3 years agao (think some holds may have snapped but not sure) - its a stunning line, come on Adam, hop to it
In reply to StuartM:
i only climb e2 on a v.good day and i can see that the scoop at cratcliffe is obviously going to go just can't work out why it hasn't yet, who's tried it?
As for Wall right of Ulysses awesome is the word, JD's got the vision but, not enough run up i reckon
i only climb e2 on a v.good day and i can see that the scoop at cratcliffe is obviously going to go just can't work out why it hasn't yet, who's tried it?
As for Wall right of Ulysses awesome is the word, JD's got the vision but, not enough run up i reckon
In reply to Jon Greengrass:
who hasnt tried it!
who hasnt tried it!
In reply to hoseyb: No Gary, staples are not allowed on grit
In reply to Al Evans: Its not got the hallmark of a gibson route - its not squeezed in enough!!
Only joking gary - did one of your old routes paraplege the other week it was excellent.
Only joking gary - did one of your old routes paraplege the other week it was excellent.
In reply to daveP: Paraplege, hope you had a good selection of RP's
In reply to Al Evans:
oh aye - a double set in fact, which was a good job since all the placements seemed to be the same few sizes!
Noticed some very fetching old photos of you in my (bargain £5) wye valley guide. Is this the only guidebook in existence with a wedding photo in it?
oh aye - a double set in fact, which was a good job since all the placements seemed to be the same few sizes!
Noticed some very fetching old photos of you in my (bargain £5) wye valley guide. Is this the only guidebook in existence with a wedding photo in it?
In reply to daveP:
I reckon the one of al in the lancs guide is pretty fetching
I reckon the one of al in the lancs guide is pretty fetching
In reply to Dom Orslerq:
Interesting to compare Als Sheffield thread with this one. Seems that all 'last great problems' as they are known, both present and in the past, have been on the crags not a million miles away from the city. I know alot of this is down to hype but when you think about the sheer volume of rock (grit or limestone) close to sheff, it's not surprising that it's the centre of British climbing.
I know Fort Bill has more but it's not quite as accessible is it?
Interesting to compare Als Sheffield thread with this one. Seems that all 'last great problems' as they are known, both present and in the past, have been on the crags not a million miles away from the city. I know alot of this is down to hype but when you think about the sheer volume of rock (grit or limestone) close to sheff, it's not surprising that it's the centre of British climbing.
I know Fort Bill has more but it's not quite as accessible is it?
In reply to Will aka willyb: Was Al Evans working in 1978, because he was very busy in Wales!
Stu
PS Get that book published?
Stu
PS Get that book published?
In reply to ST: lol! cheeky
In reply to ST:
What d'ya mean "if" ?
What d'ya mean "if" ?
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