UKC

As climbing is an unregulated sport (leaving aside the malformed child that is competition climbing), and it is therefore not possible to be "banned" from taking part, is the use of performance-enhancing drugs widespread? I seem to remember something about Martin "Basher" Atkinson and steroids, back in the 1980's, though I may be wrong and I don't wish to besmirch his name. By the way, whatever happened to him?

In reply to BrianT: None of the drugs I use seem to enhance my performance, antioxidants or no.
Shit, how sad, I'm replying to my own thread. That's it. Bed.

In reply to BrianT: Always thought steroids would be useless as it's so easy to bulk up. Wouldn't be surprised if creatine is used.

Atkinson went to Switzerland to work for Mammut (?)

In reply to Jonathan: In the past I have found alcohol useful on bold routes, but obviously the disaster potential from overuse is dangerous. I have watched several scarey solos which were obviously benefiting from the afluence of incohol. And why do you think 'The Tippler' was so called?

In reply to Al Evans:


Blimey! Did you, or would you, ever try to stop someone from climbing if you thought he/she wasn't capable of making a rational decision?


See ya,

al

In reply to BrianT: Of course, the ultimate drug, luuurve, has caused many a fine solo.

In reply to BrianT:

This year's Everest season has seen more controversy over use of performance enhancing drugs, with plenty of allegations, but no investigation or evidence it seems. In fact, Diamox (which is commmonly used to increase your ability to acclimatise) would be considered as performance enhancing by some.

At the other end of the scale, 'natural' fat burning drugs are allegedly all the rage at the moment with some of our top climbers, and although not banned as yet in other competitive sports, they are expected to be on the banned list soon.

It's an interesting one and certainly, the temptation has got to be there, especially on the continent with competition climbers (although they do have regular dope testing I think).

I reckon if a fair cross section of climbers were tested for banned substances, quite a few would fail!

Basher is MD of Wild Country

In reply to Jonathan: Usually as a consequence of withdrawal.

In reply to BrianT:

Ben, Jerry, Malc et al used copious amounts of Durban Poison as detailed in their self glorifying article in OTe, but didn't seem to help them crack the bouldering problems at Cresciano. Sounds like they're going to make a film about it....coool, i'll be the first in the line to buy that one. The irony being that Ben Moon and someone else were thinking, to effect, that the current flow of climbing video's was poor!?

So the boys have discovered pot! cool dude, and i thought that's what 16 year olds did...........

In reply to BrianT:

Is this threads question in any way related to your interest in Mushroom Harvesting?

In reply to BrianT:

It seems stupid to me to take them, ive seen the consequences (of steroids i mean). my brother had bad asthma as a kid and has been on steroids for a while. He now (only 27) has osteoperosis, which usually only occurs with PM women. This is because the steroids have eaten his bones and calcium. Seems an easy choice really. Climb one grade less or one grade more, with osteoperosis.

In reply to Horse: No it was serious! I figured that climbing being a totally unregulated thing, outside comps, anyone who wanted to could use anything to help their performance or training. The reason I mentioned Basher is that a mate of mine, who knew him at the time, half jokingly suggested he was using anabolic steroids back in the 80's. But he was probably joking.
I've been climbing after drinking and stoned, and I've invariably thought "can't be arsed" and ended up sat at the bottom of the crag doing nothing.

In reply to Al Downie: how can you when you are in the same state? I rememember one stupid night we all came out of the moon and someone ,Birtles? suggested we all solo pearly gates as it was a moonlit night. 14 people at 6ft intervals all pissed and all having a great time. Were you there Al?

In reply to BrianT: Crack really gets you up there, in the clouds and smack lowers you down again gently

In reply to BrianT:

I used to go bouldering after work at this crag with fantastic views of the Sound of Raasay and the Cullin. I'd usually have the place to myself so would often chill out and release the stress of the day with a Jamaican cheroot before getting on some problems. The effect was very interesting; on the low level trvaerses I would feel very fluid and in tune with the medium; almost as if the rock was speaking to me (man); however anything getting me more than three feat off the ground was accompanied by tremendous feelings of terror and impending doom. VDiffs which I'd soloed regularly in trainers became completely out of the question. I'd say if Malc, Ben and the boys have discovered draw then Fred Nicole's got nothing to worry about.

JAMIE B.

In reply to BrianT:
One interesting question is what you mean by a performance enhancing drug.

I am anaemic. I take iron tablets, and felt a huge boost as soon as I started taking them. For instance, I was able to get dressed in the morning without taking a big rest after putting on my socks (sadly, this used to be necessary).
So is iron a performance-enhancing drug? It certainly enhances my performance.

And, as I said on the altitude sickness thread, sunscree enables us to be healthy at altitude or in sunnier climes than we are used to without spending months building up a good sun tan. Is this a performance enhancing drug? It certainly enhances our performance.

Personally, the main person I climb for is me. I have no burning desire to be the best or to be known as the best (although it might be nice). I do want to explore the snowy mountains, stay healthy, and enjoy the experience. Thus, for me, anabolic steroids hold no attraction, Diamox I think was useful, and sunscreen is a must. This, plus my regular meds to keep me going.

In reply to BrianT: Due to the personal nature of climbing,
I think the vast majority of people might consider the use of steroids effectivly beneath contempt.Defeating the object.I'm certain many utillise various other substances.
Either with the intention of boosting energy,general and social stimulant.Or may climb whilst still eperiencing the effects of prior indulgences.I feel that for many,such mild
abuses are an intrinsic part of climbing ,or what surrounds it.

In reply to BrianT:

There are two major reasons why individuals take performance enhancing drugs. No 1 is that some people are naturally obsessive and super competitive, the sort who NEED to win, don't just like to win and feel ill for a couple of weeks after being beaten. This type of individual will put their sport ahead of everything else in their lives. They may well be training to their physical limits and still not getting the results they crave. Consequently, given such a mind set, it is almost a natural 'next step' to seek a performance boost by taking drugs. The most likely climber to think like this must surely be found amongst competition climbers. Many others, as is pointed out by 'almost sane' climb because they love it, or are seeking to challenge only themselves so that the grade is irrelevant, or are looking for a life or mind enhancing experience. This suggests that the majority of climbers are unlikely to resort to drugs.

The other big reason to take drugs is money. Get the results in a sport such as cycling and you income will be boosted by hundreds of thousands or even several million pounds. There does not seem to be big money in competition climbing but then again the need to win is probably enough for some to be tempted.

There does not seem to be the sorts of pressures in climbing to take performance enhancing drugs that exist in a sport such as cycling. For example, in some professional cycling teams the ethos has been 'Well if you can win clean that's great, if you refuse our medical 'help' and loose, don't expect a contract next year'. There is also the 'arms race' mentality. If you are suffering like a dog for 6 hours a day riding though the Alps, and you think that you are getting a kicking because others are on 'stuff' , it is tempting to take it as well 'just to even things up'.

From what I have heard and read, drug use is endemic in most competitive sports. Although cycling had a habit of washing it's dirty linen in public, it must affect other sports as well, or are we to belive that a top athelete doesn't want to win as much as a top cyclist? I remember an interview on Radio 4 a couple of years back with a GB international runner who said 90% of long distance runners were using EPO. His claims were rejected by an official from British Athletics who said, more or less, that he was just a poor looser. What such individuals are really afraid of is bad publicity, especially in the UK where drug taking is 'cheating' and 'unsporting'and might lead to sponsors walking away with their money. (In comparison, in some other European countries (O.K France!) taking drugs is more likley to be seen as being smart and getting one over on ones fellow competitors!).

Of course, many individuals, however competitive, have a strong moral conviction that prevents them from even considering drugs, they may even worry about their long term health, though this is rare. (One survey asked whether an individual would take drugs that would make them a world champion even if if would drastically shorten their lifespans- the majority said yes). Chris Boardman was renowned for being clean, which is one good reason for the hiding he got in the Tour de France- physiological tests showed that he was a contender then come the racing he would find that '100 guys would just ride away from me', well now we know why.

However, for me the 'moral' argument against taking drugs to enhance performace is logically flawed. For example, many individuals would do anything to improve their performance as long as it was effective- training, using mega vitamins, taking creatine etc. Such methods or preparations all add artificially to ones natural ability and at the turn of the century even 'training' was seen to be unsporting. Many atheletes who shout out loud that they are clean think nothing of using steroids to aid the healing process when they overtrain (rather than just reducing their training load!). There is little difference between this and taking steriods to support a training load higher than one could normally sustain with the intention of avoiding injury in the first place.

At the end of the day perhaps all that matters is whether or not a drug is going to damage the health of the individual, as in professional cycling where, rather than banning EPO (which could not be detected in any case) riders were prevented from racing if their blood was so thick they might end up with a heart attack.

Do some climbers take drugs? Do some climbers want to be the best more than anything else in the world? There, I think, lies your answer.

P.S sorry about the length of this, working in local government it is the first time my brain has had something interesting to do all day!

Regards

Howard.

In reply to Jonathan: luuuurve is of course the ultimate drug, i agree Jonathan. Gazing at the beautfiul Scarlett on the crag with the wind in her hair makes me vroom up the most impossible things.

In reply to willyb:

you wrote, "but didn't seem to help them crack the bouldering problems at Cresciano"

i'm sure mr smiths impressive tick list he gathered whilst out in cresciano would help put paid to the contention that he couldnt 'crack' the problems there,

laterzz

m@

In reply to Al Evans:

Where, can I get some - incohol from? Does it work?

Dennis M.

In reply to Dennis:
For incohol:
Take the caps off three whiteboard pens and place in a tall glass, nib down.
Fill the glass with cheap sherry.
Marinade for three weeks.
Remove pens.

There you have it - inkohol

PS only kidding

In reply to Tom:

there was a photo of a certain well known climber in OTE taken at the Deep Water Solo Fest 1999 or 2000 (cant remember) which resulted in a letter from a sports scientist basically saying it owuld be hard to look so ripped without fat burning drugs

havin said that 4 weeks of a rice only diet at Railey made me look pretty similar and pushed my climbing up 4 grades

who needs drugs when you can have rice??

PAUL

In reply to almost sane: 'Marinade for three weeks.' Is that two Marines - or three?

Dennis M.

In reply to BrianT: I have nothing against people using druugs to help performance in any way; to me it's no different from using modern pro, boots or chalk (remember the controv over Drummond using that on Great Wall?). And as climbing is a personal thing, outside comps, it doesn't matter so long as the individual is happy about it themselves. Just wondered if anyone would step forward and say "I do". But as... someone pointed out, it's hard to define a PED anyway-a hayfever remedy helps me climb better in summer!

In reply to almost sane: Thats a very sane comment, you'll be losing your credibility as only 'almost sane' if you keep saying things like that

In reply to BrianT:

But how can they really tell if they are happy themselves if their are pyschological side-effects to the drug which may blur this happiness?

Ultimately drug abuse ends in tears. Occassional use is fine, but basing your life around what may seem the coolest thing in the world is both sad and delusory. I know, I've been there.