UKC

this is gonna sound a little bit village, but I don't want my belay failing: I realised I didn't get taught on my winter course course whether you can use a semi-direct belay (i.e. belay device) if your belay is built from ice screws or not. Or for that matter if you can use a belay device if you have one rock anchor and one ice anchor.

I understand that if your belay has been constructed using snow anchors than you must use a body belay (this will be what we're doing most of the time as we're going to be on easy gullies)

cheers in advance

In reply to viking:

I have used a belay device with an ice screw belay but then, I've never been on a course so don't know if this is allowed or not.

In reply to viking:

I realised I didn't get taught on my winter course course whether you can use a semi-direct belay (i.e. belay device) if your belay is built from ice screws or not.

Ask for your money back.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

cheers norrie - very useful


i may ask for my money back - i'm up in fort william next week -i think i'll try on

In reply to viking:

didn't get taught or weren't paying attention?

In reply to Removed User:

let me tap into to your experience for a second - you have, therefor other people have (people you have seen and climbing with), therefor it is safe - do you concur?

In reply to Morgan Woods:

wasn't paying attention dude

you around next tuesday night?

In reply to viking:

well don't do it again....and yes sh. be there on tues.

In reply to viking:

If there is any doubt on the strength of your belays whether even on rock or snow and ice use a dynamic belay method such as the waist belay. Most so called semi-direct belays on a standard harness and belay device are in fact direct as the shock load is transmitted directly onto the anchors without any slippage and a weak anchor will fail. If you use a belay device make sure you have at least two bomb proof anchors and get a runner in as soon as you can to safeguard the belay...

Cheers Ron

In reply to Ron Walker:

Thanks Ron, makes absolute sense

Happy climbing

In reply to viking:

That's a very good question, and well presented but it was, at the time, Hobson's choice and it was very steep so a body belay would have been pretty hard to hold (imho). I also backed it up with both axes. It felt safe but was untried so can't comment.

There's a good article by Andy Kirkpatrick in this months' Climb which talks about rock belays but does end by describing the belay where you aren't 100% confident in the anchor (the only one you managed to get in)and just tell your second not to come off! I've had quite a few of those belays.

In reply to viking: A medium to long ice screw in good ice is a really strong anchor. I was once pulled off my stance onto a two ice screw belay by a falling second - there was no problem at all. Of course, the screw is only as good as the ice that it goes into.

In reply to Removed User:

TBH, I am the last man on this earth you should be asking! I've never done a course and am simply self taught so it really should be up to those who are qualified to give you the right answer.

As an example, I would rarely, if ever, put three anchors into a belay. I'm not saying that's right, just thats the way it is.

In reply to John2:

That's the problem especially in Scotland. In the continent or Norway on good thick water ice the ice screws can be absolutely bomber however, Scotland is often the land of virtual belays and virtual protection and as Bobt says new calls such as "climb when ready...but don't fall off" !!!

Ron

In reply to viking:


Grr. Thats what I dont like about courses! The idea that theres a right and wrong way to do everything, and somthings cant be done and some things can!


Best thing to do is just to get a feel for the situation. Yes, ask on here, and get some opinions, but find out for yourself and make the final decision on when to do a this or that belay yourself.

In safety in the valley, try and pull icescrews out, stick em into crappy ice or half or a quarter way in, try pull your axes out of snow, neve, turf and ice, get first hand experience of what works and how and when things fail. Its amazing how many climbers have never actually pushed a screw (or the ice around it) to faliure in a safe environment. Its so important to see how things go wrong!


I think courses are great, they get people into climbing and teach them a lot. But I am very wary, not least because the two most dangerous people I have climbed with both did courses and often quoted what they 'should be doing' in certain situations, presumably because thats what they were taught or were under the impression that that was what they were taught.

Not to say asking on here and getting a opinion isnt good, UKC is fab for that, but any answers take as an opinion to base your own opinion on and not a fact.

Best thing you can do, wreck some belays! See how far you can push you gear and get a feel for it yourself. Ask youself would a direct belay be better for that or not?That way when youre in a situation that you havent been taught about on the hill and you dont have UKC, youre better equipped to make the decision there and then.

The times Ive got myself out of a pile of shit by doing stuff that I would have been taught never to do is quite astonishing!

I love the 'make do' aspect of winter climbing. Theres no defined right and wrong. Unlike rock, which generally more mathematical: lenght of rope, bit of gear, distance to the ground... winter climbing is a sliding scale between 100% bomber, and 0%. Ice and snow is a unknown variable. You try and get 100% all the time, but somtimes you drop it down through necessity, or need for speed on a route cos youre making mistakes through tiredness.

Axes too, Ive held my axes in every position, by the picks once or twice. Ive rammed one into a hole and stood on it, and untied myself mid route in lofoten to feed the rope through a tree root as it was the only bomber bit of kit on the whole route (had no gear left, very shitty climb!). My favourite bit is the 'make do' aspect. Using ingenuity to reduce risk when you have to instead of knowledge. Develop as much of both as you can, but remember you can always muster ingenuity in a dire situation, whereas knowlege- if you dont know something, you cant find out when youre on your hanging off a mountain!

(C:

Ive rambled! Sorry! Im at the end of my climbing career, and youve just started, kind of went off into my own world there!!

Youve got a lot to look forward to!

(C:

Mat

In reply to matnoo:


God, you're in a mood...!

I thought it was one of the more sensible question on this forum.

BTW All the above quoted from you is spot on and generally what's done on most courses. If you can do that yourself great or have been taught by more experienced climbers, fine. But no doubt both of us survived a few times more due to luck than any skill. We survived and learned from it, so why not pass on our words of wisdom and save a few mishaps.

Why do people have to reinvent the wheel...

I've corrected your spelling mistakes to ensure the myth of older folk being able to spell continues...

Cheers Ron

In reply to Ron Walker:
Because they think they have invented it in the first place. Terminators being the first asymmetric crampons, well Chouinard Rigid crampons when fitted were asymmetric which I first wore 35 years ago. And don't get me started about climbing leashless.

In reply to viking: surely also depends whether u like ur second and how quickly u can escape the system !-)

In reply to matnoo:

cheers - all good advice, generally on the side of - there's no black and white only grey (much like the scottish winter!)

thanks again, hope you find something to fill the void of climbing

viking

In reply to viking: You could use a screamer to link the belay device to the anchor, that way the shock loading would be less in a fall.