UKC

iv noticed there isnt many black climbers. why is this?

In reply to Ewan Brown: There are loads. This topic was discuss a while back - you might want to search the forums.

In reply to Ewan Brown: oh rite. iv only seen one personaly

In reply to Glyn Jones: It's been discussed many times, I agree.

Not sure I'd say there are loads.

I'd say the % of black people who climb (or even not white european (can we say that?), would be lower than the % of that group in the UK.

I'd guess its connected to the Education system, as I would guess many climbers enter the sport while at Uni.

this debate has always degenrated into a racist argument on UKC, or at least allegations of racism.

In reply to Ewan Brown:


They're all just around the corner out of sight....
laughing at the crazy white boy WHAT? they're everywhere!
one significant factor that contributes to your misperception: climbing is a very expensive sport/hobby.
anyone that thinks people of African descent have reached at long last economic equality with Europeans is fulla beans.

In reply to IainRUK: Agreed, was thinking of not just black people and not just UK - Krabi has loads of routes by locals.

Don't want to suggest the system prevents black people climbing as there are many well educated (although not enough in relation to their proportional representation).

In reply to Glyn Jones:

Meaning not enough in the educational system that is.

In reply to Ewan Brown:

There are a few, Trever Massai (or however you spell it)... Often see a few chinese girls down the wall...

Dunno know why really. Does the vast majority of the black population live in the cities in childhood? Thus not appreciating the outdoors quite so much. Are most climbers brought up in a country/town environment?

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Trevor Massiah

http://www.rockandsun.com/staff/trevor.htm

He was on the telly again today. As the demonstration body for that BBC2 program - Dr Alice Roberts: Don't Die Young

rgds
lowerSharpnose

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:



I don't believe I'm reading this. On behalf of every African American mate of my entire life:
L M A O.
whoa nellie. Sir, I humbly submit you're on the Wrong Tack.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips: With all due respect, you are american, and therefore perhaps do not have a teerribly good understanding of British climbing/cultures. I may be wrong. Trevor Messiah is the only black climber I have met, and I've only seen a few others down the wall.
ALB may have a point that a higher proportion of the black population live in an Urban environment than white people. I don't know-could be?
Sam

Oh god, what's next?? The Institutional racism article for UKC!!??!!!.........

You could also argue that this should not be a factor with black people not taking up climbing, because they are so many climbing walls within urban enviroments. Unless you know someone who climbs already, it may be eassier to pick up the sport whilst living in an urban enviroment by being able to see, and go to such indoor walls.

my two cents

In reply to Ewan Brown:

Weren't Joe Brown and co from an urban environment?

The reason isn't to be found there, I don't think. It's "cultural", which doesn't really say much of course. Not due to the cost directly as climbing doesn't have to be expensive, with a bit of motivation anyone in work can afford to go out on the hills, you have to want to though.

The same is true of many people who immigrate, the first generations are concerned with getting set up... doing such daft and uncomfortable things as climbing, hiking, camping even may seem less interesting than seeking the more banal comforts of life?

If you really want to know the answer the obvious thing to do is to ask the people concerned!

In reply to sam the man:


Dear Sam,
With all due respect, you are British and ought to bloody know better.
Hey! I've got a great idea....
Why don't you crackers get yer pasty white arses to a Black neighborhood and take a poll what they think of your suggestions above?
Take some of em climbing!
What? .....they think you're daft and donwanna come?
Uh....there's a shock.

In reply to IainRUK:



WHY on Gods Grey Earth would it have to do ANYTHING with the British educational system?
Please explain this; I am a yank and have no comprehension of what British climbing is. LMAO
Jesus guys.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

This has been done to death before on UKC... and as Ian said, it usually degenerates into a racist/not-racist argument.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

you mean like how i feel after my morning coffee?

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

I am a yank and have no comprehension of what British climbing is.

I for one would have never guessed that.

In reply to Morgan Woods: na, more like they're out partying n just took some pills

In reply to Ewan Brown: It's a good point, I've not seen any "yet" either..

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips: Well there always has been, and still is, a lower proportion of ethic minorities attending Universities. University Clubs has traditionally been an entry route into climbers.

As University is still lagely dominated by students from middle and upper class backgrounds, you'd expect the climbing clubs to be so.

In reply to Ewan Brown:
You get your adrenaline rush walking past a policeman if you're black round here

In reply to IainRUK:



Gee wizz. And why is that do you think?
Do you have to pay for higher education in the UK?
Yes? then please refer to my first post.
No? then yes this is an issue of race that has no place in the 21st century let alone the UK.

In reply to Ewan Brown:


coz they're not that into it.

In reply to Andy Cantrell:


What about black policemen.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips: You are a bit simple here.

Why is climbing expensive?

It's a lot cheaper than many other sports to get into. In the past I've spent far more on football gear.

To buy a full rack, fair enough, but just tobuy a pair of boots, harness, and then share with people, bit more here and there.

I don't think the finances involved in climbing are a real off putter, now compare climbing with diving?

yes you have to pay (well contribute) to your education in the UK, but you didn't have to, yet if anything I think we are seeing more non-whites attending universities than in the past.

In reply to Norrie Muir:


Oh well done. Jesus Norrie give it a rest.
Is British climbing so different?
What arrogance. Comming from a devil may care solo climber in a kilt this doesn't surprise me either.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:


Different to where, France, Germany, the Czech Republic, Denmark?

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

To be more accurate; diving is expensive yes, and so is Climbing (can be when you buy the rack gear etc etc), so to say one is moreso than the other, is a little naive, as all extreme sports, skiing, climbing, diving, mountain biking can all be equally expensive..

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips: Aye mate, don't think I will.

This subject always degenerates to this sort of petty argument. I'm off.

In reply to belaybev: Oh and just for the record, I do all those sports, so I may well know what I am talking about

In reply to IainRUK:

But, well, okay, that may not be a bad idea.. as some topics can and do do that (even when the intention was not as such..)

In reply to belaybev: Bull Belay Bev,

How much to get into climbing?

How much to get into diving in temperate waters.

One is clearly harder to get into.

And don't use the term 'extreme sports'.

You make me want to sell all my climbing and diving gear. Are you a yank too?

In reply to IainRUK:

Unlike you dear, I don't bullshit, you'd know more about that since you clearly experience bullshit more than most

In reply to belaybev: well I do all your extreme radical sports.

And I'd put climbing as one of the cheapest and easiest to do, after MBiking.

I also fell run, but I think you'll find that's too much like hard work to be termed 'extreme'. maybe they'll create down hill fell running for the unfit, like they have done in M'Biking.

In reply to Ewan Brown:

i have noticed that there are far more black and ethnic minority climbers at the london climbing walls now then there was just a few years ago. Probably different outside of london (bumpkin land). there arent that many people of ethnic origins involved in outdoor country persuit type things anyway. Dont think it a problem particular to climbing.

In reply to IainRUK:

A bit of advice, you will get more sense out of the Yank.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips: I only put forward an idea. I don't know why there is a smaller than expected percentage of ethnic minority climbers. What is your point and why do you think? You seem to just be denying everyone else's ideas.
It is likely to be a combination of factors, but you don't seem to be acceoting any of them.
Sam

In reply to sam the man:
Sam,
If I appear to disagree with all the opinions that's likely the case lol.
It isn't because I'm a yank and yes racial issues are particularly sensitive here.
Simply stated I find the comments above that if followed to their logical origins suggest "blacks simply aren't interested" in climbing to be ridiculous.
Fer Christsake, imagine you're a inner city youth of ANY colour. You're given the opportunity to explore the wilderness; not just that but climbing as well. Would you say no?

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips: If someone said 'blacks aren't interested in climbig' then I missed it. There have been a few plausable socio-economic factors put forward though, and these are likely to be at least part of the reason.
You still haven't come up with possibilities-it is possible to talk about race issues without being racist.
Sam

In reply to sam the man:
Also, what is the average income of blacks vs. whites in the UK? Is the gap negligible? I doubt it.
If you have to work all the bloody time to make ends meet you've scarcely the time or energy to go CLIMBING or any other sport/hobby/activity.
See what I'm saying?

In reply to Ewan Brown:
Because they are not stupid.
Why would anybody rock climb when there is a perfectly good path to the top.
Or
They`re all down some secret nails crag doing E14`s with no damn honkies to annoy them.
Thats my theory anyway.
Cheers Beds

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips: I think that is the point that people are trying to make. The economic gap also ties into the uni suggestion- I know lots of climbers who got into climbing through uni, and the maojority of people at UNi are from afluent white backgrounds. not all, but the majority.
Sam

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

I think many would.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

I suspect the answer would be 'no' for a lot of inner-city kids, regardless of colour. Different strokes for different folks - why should they jump at the opportunity of going into the wilderness?

In reply to doz generale:...."bumkinland" ???...you're not a bbc weather man are you ??....

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

Yes, you're saying that all the blacks in Britain are so poor they can't afford to go climbing. With respect, you're talking complete bollocks.

In reply to sam the man:


I wrote "if followed to their logical origins" and used quotation marks. A poor excuse for "I missed it".
A few plausable etc. Yeah, if memeory serves I was the first to make one. Am I mistaken? Sorry.
Possibilities for WHAT?
Is it possible to etc. When did that become the topic?
If my loathing for racism isn't aleady apparent then you missed something, that's for certain.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

most of the outdoor climbing in the uk is in places where people from ethnic minorities tend not to feel welcome ie the countryside. I am afraid to say that outside of the cities and towns the uk is still quite a racist place (in my opinion)

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips: Fer Christsake, imagine you're a inner city youth of ANY colour. You're given the opportunity to explore the wilderness; not just that but climbing as well. Would you say no?


Judging by the number of whining inner city kids I've seen out on the hills, quite a lot of people really wouldn't. If everyone did then the wilderness would be a lot less wild....
Sam

In reply to sam the man:

No, the ones who think they`ve got time to prat around climbing are. Try looking at the lists of new members to the accounting and law professions its like looking at cross between the Hong Kong and Delhi phone books. No the fact is a lot of our non ethnic population are harder working and more work focussed than a lot of white people.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips: I hate racism too-I don;t think anyone has said anything racist on this thread. It would be great if there was a more representative climbing community. We cannot make that happen unless we understand the reasons for the problem, and a discussion is healthy.
Sam

In reply to J1234:

Is that one of the 86% of statistics that are made up on the spot?

In reply to sam the man:

Is it really a 'problem'?
If so how would you solve it? Compulsory climing courses for ethnic minorities? Crag quotas?

In reply to Ridge:
Yes it is and I think you`ll find that its 86.5%
Not a fact but my perception, I stand corrected.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

It's weird because I've noticed you seem to speak 'on behalf of' black people quite a lot... is it just me or is this a bit patronising?

Maybe they just don't want to do it. (Like maybe quite a few people aren't into climbing because they don't find the idea of it appealing... in the same way as some people don't like the idea of diving, or pony riding, or mountain biking.) I am an 'ethnic' and I haven't noticed that many ethnics climbing. But then that doesn't overly bother me because I don't live in an area where there are many ethnic minorities... I certainly don't feel like they have been discouraged in any way, any more than women have been discouraged (and there aren't that many women climbers compared to male climbers where I climb).

I find it extremely patronising/insulting when people say that ethnic minorities need to see other ethnic minority people climbing/succeeding at something/getting on in their career etc to feel like they're able to do something. I don't need a colour-matched 'role model' to do things... I'm perfectly capable of taking inspiration from people who are getting on with doing their thing, regardless of the colour of their skin.

In reply to Ewan Brown: WOW, i had a feeling this would cause alot of talk. my 2nd point, i havnt noticed any black users on here(ukclimbing) either. soon will be as my mate has got into climbing(who is black) and iv told him to set up a profile

In reply to Nao:

who wouldn't love to ride a pony?

In reply to IainRUK:

For as much as your experiance will let you do safely £100-150. For enough to be an independent rock climber £500 minimally (i.e. 50m single rope, no cams but realisticic rack otherwise).


If you are prepared to be uncomfortable and risk hypothermia around £1000 all in £1500 if you want to be comfortable and not have to spend hours warming up after every dive. As an instructor I regularly see our trainiees coming back from their first boat dives shivering and unable to get comfortably warm again at dive sites. Every year on our clubs easter training trip there are 2 or 3 who are regularly in a state that on the hill would give me serious cause for concern (ie. stop, into a bothy bag and get tea and/or choclate down them) just because they can't afford to buy a dry suit in order to try a sport they might hate.

In the last 3 years I have spent twice as much on diving as climbing but done much more climbing. Also most of the expensive peices of climbing kit are usefull outside climbing. I get a good shell waterproof for climbing but it gets used as my winter coat as well and i am never short of warm jumpers. None of my dive kit has other uses.


Quite, the term 'extreame sports' makes me think of people who can dog E3 on a top rope but couldn't find there way across the yard on a dark night without a GPS unit.

In reply to Ewan Brown:

Hoorah! A proper black 'black' person as opposed to Nao, Mita, Masood et al...

In reply to Ridge:

I'll have you know I am yellow.

In reply to Nao:

Yellow is the new black, mark my words

In reply to Nao: Sensible comment. Some people seem endlessly capable of getting their nickers in a twist about this sort of "issue". As long as nobody is being stopped or made to feel unwelcome, who's bothered? Perhaps they are just not interested? (Though to judge by the Westway, its only a matter of time anyway, people tend to start climbing these days at walls then gradually diffuse outside).

In reply to Ridge:


Can't we have some "improper" ones - much more fun!

In reply to Ridge:


Positive discrimination perhaps? White climbers have to do the routes with boulders in their rucksacks... or without runners? Free cups of tea at the top for badly treated minorities? There are a wealth of possibilities if one wants crags to become colourful, rich and vibrant... the only limit is imagination.

In reply to Ridge:

usually implies those mentioned are part of a long list.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

..or I'm struggling to think of any others...

In reply to Morgan Woods:

I don't think you can tell with everyone on here whether they are black or not. Unless you went through all the profile pictures and counted the darker faces.

It doesn't say on my profile what my ethnicity is... does it on yours?

In reply to Ridge:

I suppose it isn't really a problem, but I dislike being called a racist, ar having it implicated. I'm not saying that there should be any positive discrimination (I HATE that term!) but it would be no bad thing if more black people did climb.
Anyway, I am going to leave this discussion....
Sam

In reply to Nao:

You are not an ethnic minority, you are a shadow according to your profile... but if you are "yellow" wouldn't that make you an ethnic majority?

Saying that "they are just not interested" doesn't answer the question... it's obvious to all of us that they are not interested, the question is why?

In France the situation is similar. At Fontainebleau where very little money is required to climb, just a pair of climbing shoes, the same situation exists concerning black or "maghrebin" climbers, very few, however there are quite a few Asian origin in the French sense, ie. Chinese ethnically... from the old French colonies in Indo-China mostly.

So the question remains: why? I've already said what I think the reason is.

In reply to Nao:

What a great idea! We could have socio-economic indicators too, maybe salaries, job titles and vital statistics too. Think of the threads:

"Why don't more rich women with big tits climb harder than HVS?"

In reply to sam the man:


That's a pity as you are the only person with half a head posting here... if you go away ukc will be in trouble for not respecting the "half-headed" quota.

In reply to sam the man:

I didn't imply anything of the sort, sorry if you took it that way.

In reply to Ridge: iv noticed only the only girl climbers wich are hot are the realy good ones. all the crap ones are dogs. appologies to any who iv offended.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

Wow you really are out of touch with the UK aren't you?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Not in England, or the UK.

Why? Why do you need to ask that question? Don't you think it is a tiny bit patronising? Do you think that all the ethnics should, by rights, like the same things as the white people? Is it part of civilising them?

In reply to Nao:

I agree with Nao. And for the poster above (can't remember who) who said "we need to understand why, so that we can understand the problem" - who made it a problem that some group(s) of people don't want to go climbing? It may because of accessibility issues, it may not.

Different cultures have different priorities for their spare time. Often getting together with family, cooking together, is more of a priority than dangling off a rock face. Why is that "a problem"?

In reply to Ewan Brown: is everyone friends now? its interesting to see how much opinions there is and how sensitive this topic still is.

In reply to Nao:


No, I don't think it is at all. It's a question that comes up from time to time as the question of racial discrimination is a subject of concern and also often in the news making us all rather aware of it more than when I was little. When you are climbing it is not unnatural to notice that nearly all climbers are white, and then musing about why?

I can't see how this is patronising... in most other areas of life such apparent oddities are often put down to discrimination and accusations of racism made. Even on this thread someone has already stated that "outside cities people are racist"... as is said every time the subject comes up... not patronising but probably a bit insulting for those who live in the country!

It should be possible to discuss these issues without accusing others of all sorts of ills, I would hope.

In reply to all:

Honestly, sometimes I actually wonder what is wrong with some people. You mention the word "black" and suddenly you are an evil racist pig!

Personally, I think people who immediately lable people as racists for the tiniest things are in fact the real racists. IMHO, over sensitivity highlights the ethnic differences.

But who will listen to me, I am just 19 afterall.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


<hijak>
are you only 19? i had NO idea, for some reason i thought you were about 40.
hmmm
</hijak>

holxxx

In reply to holly:


Last year, I thought he was 14, but I was wrong.

In reply to Ridge:

I know the Asian people who work in the corner shops round my house work Christmas day and Boxing day and Easter. They don't really work hard but the main reason is they don't celebrate christian holidays so they work instead! Same with Chinese people. A lot of them work in the restaurants and takeaways that require working hours at the weekends and evenings. When they do have time off, it's only weekdays. It is difficult to get into climbing if you don't have weekends and evenings off as the majority of climbers work weekdays (very generalisation here!). Then, you have difficulty finding a partner. Fortunately, I work 9-5; M-F. Does this make some sense to you guys?

In reply to Ewan Brown:
Most black people I've talked to all seem to think climbing in Britain (even just climbing rock, let alone ice) is always cold and miserable. They perhaps come from hot climates and find outdoor sports in this country is for the brave.

I somewhat identify with that point. I climb a lot outdoor because I think it's reasonable enough temperature to climb rock during the warmer months. In winter, you wrap up more to climb ice. So climbing outdoor isn't really an issue to me. However, when I used to live in Hong Kong. I used to go sea kayaking and do other watersports because it got so hot in the summer months to do anything on the mountains. When I moved over to the U.K., I was relunctant to get back to the water even if someone gave me a thick wet suit. Mind you. I did do some surfing at Tynemouth last October. The temperature of the North Sea just wasn't pleasant and wasn't as pleasant as the temperature in Hong Kong. You do have some kind of preconception about certain things/experience/expectation that you had before. You wouldn't find a man from Bahamas to try to taste the fiction of grit at Stanage on a cold, crispy Feburary weekend, would you?

I think black people don't participate climbing as much white is due to the climate they come from. So their culture, even though some black were born and bred in the U.K., is do the sports they're accustomed to. Football is popular among them or athletic or whatever sports are popular among their culture. Take for instance, Parkistanis. I have a Parkistani friend in this country, who loves playing cricket. This is their national sport in Parkistan. So when he came over to the U.K., he looked for a club to play. It's only natural.

A lot of my Chinese friends in this country like playing sports like badminton, table tennis, martial arts. These are the sports that are popular in China. You move to a different country. You naturally look for the same sports you used to do unless it's not viable or practical.

In China, you just wouldn't have much chance to get into rock climbing or ice climbing as there aren't many climbing shops to get the gear. Then again, if you do find one, the gear would have price tags from the west. How would the majority lower class afford that? This is the kind of culture you're dealing with and then it translates to other countries of Chinese origins when people move around the globe. It doesn't matter how cheap the boots or chalk bags are! How can you get into the sport when you can't get hold of the equipment in China? Even in Hong Kong where I'm from, there are only a few shops that sell some decent range of climbing gear with decent price tags. Literally only a handful. Just how can you get the right size of shoes for you to climb if they only have about 4 models in 5 sizes or 3 types of belay plates with just 1 or 2 each in stock in any given shop! No wonder why climbing is not that popular! It is improving though, mind you. Count yourselves lucky to be living in the U.K. where you can get hold of most gear from most manufracturers.

SK.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Ha ha-I'm not sure whether to take that as a complement or an insult.....
Sam

In reply to Ridge:

NO, I didnt mean you, but Regis seemed to jump down my throat for saying fairly innocuous things. It's so difficult to tell what people mean online!
Sam

In reply to sam the man:


Neither, I just looked at your mug shot

I think there's room for all people on forums... Afterwards I thought about it a bit and wondered if in reality you are just not very good at framing your photos... is that it? Whatever we should be open and welcome all sorts... even grumpy ones or those who go to climbing walls... The line should be drawn concerning chalk users though, of course.

In reply to brixton climber:

Well if there aren't in Brixton there won't be anywhere!

What's with the netting? Looks a bit kinky.

Do you ever go to a pub in Atlantic Road, the one near Electric Avenue? I went there once years ago and got some very funny looks, then a man came and sat down next to me and asked me if I wanted some dope... apparently you had to be careful about which pub you went in... back in the 70s... Is it still the same?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
dear bruce.
The neeting "supposed to stop you falling of to the basement floor[the climbing wall is on the 5th floor.]
brixton didnt changed much since the 70s.
im alwayse puzzle why they is no more black people climbing, and this is not because they dont like climbing.[i got a lots of childrens course involving mainly black teenage, and they love it],but as soon as they become adult they disapeared.
Robert[on the photo], came to learn climbing at brixton wall,and wanted to be the first black uk man to climb everest.

brixton climber

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

you're making a bit of a tit of yourself here. i don't think you really know what you're talking about (though that should never stop someone on ukc...)

a simple demonstration would be to compare the ethnic profile of climbers at the westway/castle/mile end to london as a whole.

In reply to brixton climber:

Could there be a morphological reason? The man looks muscly but I've noticed that many young boulderers tend to be very skinny and zoom up stuff that the "heavier built" find harder... I would have thought that the W African morphology, same as US "Afro-Americans", would have been good for rock climbing but I've seldom seen any at Fontainebleau.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:
I find the comments above that if followed to their logical origins suggest "blacks simply aren't interested" in climbing to be ridiculous.
You're given the opportunity to explore the wilderness; not just that but climbing as well. Would you say no?


Maybe its nothing to do with the colour (or color)of your skin,or more with breading?
its possibly to do with europeans (who were along time ago mainly white), were more adventurious explorers ( England,Spain, Portugal,Norway Etc), and possibly the sense of exploring is still in the white breading more so than the black breading.
Just a thought?
I'm prepared for the abuse, but it may just be down to that?
who knows. and im not at all racist.

In reply to kevin k:
Im still rready for abuse, but i did mean Breeding. oops

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
dear bruce.
I think i putted every kind of people at the top of brixton wall, fat/old/young/annorexic/short/long/black/white/cream/ect.
it was alwayse to hard for them. I think its a question of time, we all live in differents ethnic groups and working places, the free time that we have will have an effect on the time we give to climbing.I dont think its a question of skin color but more of a time problem.[and price, proximity]
brixton climber

In reply to Skinny Kin:

Given the number of second, third and fourth generation British people of non european ancestry, the relatively low numbers of black climbers can hardly be blamed on the fact that they come from a hot country, and find the UK too cold for them.

It's not just climbing -- realtively few are to be seen walking on the fells or out in the countryside.

Maybe Afro/Carribean and Asian people in this country genuinely prefer to spend their lives in an urban environment, rather than venturing into the great outdoors.

In reply to brixton climber:

I don't think it's a question of skin colour either, but a social thing. However it's a bit surprising that still, after several generations, there are still so few non-white climbers, either in Britain or France.

I don't know about the USA as black people have been over there for centuries (not by choice) and yet it seems they don't climb much either... I am finding it difficult to understand Von Goatlips posting... I'm sure he's trying to give us info on this but I can't work out what, he seems to post in a strange dialect, could be social too

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
dear bruce.
forget about it, and concentrate on finding why an ethnic group doesnt climb as much than another ethnic group.
Its not because shape/age/color.maybe its religion?
brixton climber

It may just be the places where you guys climb.

Last night at the climbing wall I met some scottish people, some english, a german guy, a spaniard, a slovakian girl, two black guys, a japanese couple and a welshman. To name but a few!

I'll take a stab at this one if I may.

*DISCLAIMER* Please note that the theories stated below in addressing a large group of people are all generalisations and in no way stop you from being an individual in your own right. This does not affect your statuatory rights.

I think ultimately this comes down to cultural influences - meaning the friends and family that you relate to on an every day basis and the culture that you are part of.

I think it's wrong to say that black people are generally not sports people - and i'm talking black here, not chinese or asian. In fact I would say that black peoples' bodies seem to respond to exercise a lot quicker and better than white peoples seem to. The question is what factors influence a group of people doing different things.

When I think of black sports people in the UK I think of football and athletics, both mainstream sports at school level. So that would explain that one - kids are taken when they are young and nurtured into doing one of the mainstream sports of the school.

Things like climbing and outdoors sports however are more to do with "the escape from the 1st world into the outdoors". The first world as we know it is largely and quite recently attributed to white people, black people to a large degree have arrived only recently (say last 50 years) on the scene in the sense of actually being part of building the 1st world economies. To a large degree black people are based in the 3rd world countries and possibly as a result "look up" to the cities and think they're great - why would they want to reject that and go and get cold in the mountains?

Another large part of this is the culture that black people find themselves subscribing to mostly. For the most part, the black people I know like rap music, want to be rich and relate to a sort of gangsta culture (IN GENERAL BEFORE YOU FLAME ME!!!). White people are the geeks with no rhythm who work in office jobs and have no style.

So to summarise what is a bit of a ramble - outdoors involves "escaping the city" which seems to be something inherent in white peoples' minds. Black people on the other hand still see first world lifestyle with all it's perks as a wow, most of the black people I know in the UK have come from Nigeria and Barbados recently and therefore think that cities and money is the way forward.

In reply to supafly:


Heh heh.

That's teh funnay.

But there's more truth in it than I bet most of us would like to admit.

In reply to kevin k:

A lot of people (regardless of skin colour) do say no. You could use Cumbria as an example - there are a lot of local Cumbrians who don't go up into the hills, for walking or otherwise. They know they're there, they can access them easily, they have the oportunities to go into the lakes for walking or whatever. But hey, they don't want to.

And other people do want to.

If you live or work in an inner city area, people often think you're odd for wanting to go camping for a weekend. "What's that all about then? You mean you won't be able to iron your clothes and you're going to be sleeping in a tent?!" It's more to do with your surroundings and social group, peers, and your priorities than what colour you might be.

its possibly to do with europeans (who were along time ago mainly white), were more adventurious explorers ( England,Spain, Portugal,Norway Etc), and possibly the sense of exploring is still in the white breading more so than the black breading.

Not specifically picking on your post...but me thinks you need to learn a little about world history before making those sorts of statements!! You reckon the south pacific explorers, setting out in huge canoes for weeks on end in search of new lands weren't "adventurous"? Bet it was a lot more adventurous in those canoes than in some massive ship with all the trimmings...

In reply to Ewan Brown:
srtange enought.
I have a fat white cat at home who climb, and a black cat who jump unstead.
brixton climber

and btw it's not "black people don't like cold" thing. i lived most of my life in a mega hot country and only recently moved to the uk - i therefore count myself as an african.

it's the getting out of the city into the wilderness and escaping the everyday grind of boring city life that drove me to outdoors stuff, i never did any outdoors sports in south africa - i was a sk8er like

but i know that if i brought my black friends over from za they would be much more interested in the city than in getting out of the city - that is because they come from areas where the city is where the action is and where the money is - something most of them don't have.

In reply to Bella:
Not specifically picking on your post...but me thinks you need to learn a little about world history before making those sorts of statements!! You reckon the south pacific explorers, setting out in huge canoes for weeks on end in search of new lands weren't "adventurous"? Bet it was a lot more adventurous in those canoes than in some massive ship with all the trimmings...


yep, ok good point, but i was talking generally, i thought that years ago, the white population traveled alot more than Blacks, white explored ,colonised (or invaded)most of the world (i think),Everest,K2,Eiger etc, north + south poles,roung the world sailing, austrailia, india, north + south america,Canada.
im not saying blacks dont explore, but on the whole whites seem more adventurous.

In reply to Skinny Kin:

Thats such a load of bollox! I climbed more when i worked in the catering trade than i do now with a 9-5 job. Starting work at both 2.30pm or 6pm, means you have the day (the bit of the day when light allows you to see the rock) to climb in, and at night when its dark you can work

In reply to kevin k:


you'll need to define adventurous a little more there. is adventurous conquering some remote peak in your spare time just coz it's there? what you think is adventurous might be foolish time wasting to others to whom things like food and water are the important things.

what is adventure to you and what are it's endearing qualities?

In reply to Ewan Brown:

I think its a good thing that, as a sport/activity, climbing seems to be addressing the issues that are relevant today. I get a very positive feel from the discussions, debates, articles and opinions I come across within the community. It's not something I've noticed as much in other sports/activities. But I'm not saying it doesn't exist. It just feels different with climbing.

Even some of the more dubious opinions on here, by way of exposure, hopefully at least get educated by the feedback they recieve. I hope that plants seeds.

It's good to hear debate about the concept of it being a 'problem'. I'd like to think that the only problem would be if the climbing community was racist and unwelcoming. That doesn't seem to be a problem.

Now - someone better roll me another one of those 'I didn't inhale' funny cigarettes. MAN!

Ewan asked - iv noticed there isnt many black climbers. why is this?

As long as anybody isn't discriminated against for any reason, within what we do in life it doesn't matter. There will be a myriad of reasons why. People will make there choices. Perhaps if anything, climbing is not promoted enough to give people the chance to choose to try it?

I know that Mile End seems to be pretty busy with giving kids a chance to try climbing. They seem to have diverse (and lively) groups down there quite frequently. Too add to this - I work with kids in inner city London. One of the poorest boroughs. It's probably typical of kids everywhere though that they are drawn to technology and sensory escapism that is instant and high paced. Perhaps if they tried climbing they would 'get a buzz' from it. But I imagine their perception of it is that it is dull.

The solution - flashing lights on ropes. PS2's at the belay points. 1000 Free text messages when you climb your first E1.

In reply to supafly: good point,maybe adventurous is the wrong word,as this is too a broad spectrum.
and i'm talking generations ago, generally, and not present day.

In reply to Nao:

Yes, i thought that too. Get off yer soap box scroat lips, your boring the shit outta me.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

You're not wrong there dude. Your "loathing for rascism" seems to have turned you jelly-brained.

In reply to Ewan Brown:

Bully for you. Yes, this thread - repeated at approximately 12 week intervals - always gets a fair number of cod-sociological responses zzzzzz.

FWIW I have a chum who is black and occasionally climbs outside with me. Not sure he counts though cos' he's an expat-Yank with a Westpoint education and middle-class lifestyle. He doesn't like the cold.

In reply to Skinny Kin:


Most of the ones I know are English and therefore come from the same country as I do.

In reply to kevin k:
>but i was talking generally, i thought that years ago, >the white population traveled alot more than Blacks, >white explored ,colonised (or invaded)most of the world >>(i think),Everest,K2,Eiger etc, north + south poles,roung >the world sailing, austrailia, india, north + south >america,Canada.

Europeans colonised and invaded the rest of the world after everyone else had had their adventures and got there. The south americans travelled from somewhere to get to South America before the spanish got there. Several hundred years before. American Indians had travelled from (Asia? I think is one of the theories?) hundreds of years before Columbus got there.

And, I may be mistaken, but I don't think Hillary got to the top of Everest on his own. He had a Nepalese sherpa with him. Who'd been "adventuring" in the area years before Hillary visited.

In reply to Bella: "And, I may be mistaken, but I don't think Hillary got to the top of Everest on his own. He had a Nepalese sherpa with him. Who'd been "adventuring" in the area years before Hillary visited. "

At the time that was quite an issue at the time. Who helped who? Was it the sherpa dragging the westerner (well kiwi). There were a few famous cartoons depicting the summiting in India I think.

Anyway I thought it was thought that Scotts had got to NZ before Cook did, as there was red haired maoris even back then.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer: Thats bollocks! People I've met plenty on climbers who didn't grow up in the country. And that business about needing lots of money to climb too is crap you just need friends or a mat.

In reply to tony:


This and others similar to it are some of the most ignorant statements I've yet seen in this fine forum.
Where I live underpriviledged inner city youths are sometimes given that opportunity though school programs and they relish it. What of those same youths that are given an opportunity to attend summer camp? Think they say no?
I repeat: IGNORANT.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips: You are rather forceful in your views.

I have seen many many kids on the hill hating it. Tony didn't say all, he said 'for a lot'.

Why is that ignorant?

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

do you always get up this early? it must be like 0530 in cali now..?

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:


You seem very sure of the righteousness of your views.

I notice you didn't respond to my posts above where I questioned them. Or call me ignorant. Perhaps because that's because I can actually talk about race issues with some semblance of experience?

In reply to Nick Beckett:


The first part of your post well done and agreed.
The second? LOL
lookie here: give it a think before posting such nonsense. What is a little cash to you isn't necessarily to someone else. That the activity of climbing can be a cost free one is ridiculous.
Are you a climber?
Could you do without ANYTHING but bouldering for the rest of your life?
That's not climbing.

In reply to Ewan Brown: well if the malibu advert is true (which it must be cause its on TV) then they would all be boulderers taking it easy and wearing a beany

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
wondered if in reality you are just not very good at framing your photos... is that it?

Sadly not, due to freak accident I lost the bottom half of my head and the top half of my neck-barely leaving my brain intact. Thanks for your support...


The line should be drawn concerning chalk users though, of course.

Absolutely. And I think you are being a little lenient allowing users of indor walls as well...

Sam

In reply to Nao:


You've predictably responded to my observation which as it happens isn't necessaily insulting with implying I believe my "views" to be "righteous".
I'm a yank and you've also implyed I'm unable to speak about race issues with "some semblance of experience".
Congratulations.
You've only just confirmed my observation though you are clearly unaware of it.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:
I've made a few presumptions myself because your post doesn't employ any english grammar I'm familiar with.

In reply to IainRUK: Not heard the theory about Scots reaching NZ before Cook, Able Tasman (dutch) did, but didn't land, there's a theory that a spanish ship may have been there years before Cook and landed.

Red haired as in fully ginger?

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

Calling people 'IGNORANT' and saying they are wrong generally implies that you think you are right.

It shows...

Well, you've already said you're not black. You've deliberately ignored contradictory comments from people who ARE ethnic minorities. You failed to respond to my observation that you are being incredibly patronising, by claiming to speak on behalf of black people when you aren't one, and by yelling 'racist' at anyone who dares disagree with your view that black people don't climb because they are somehow repressed (and don't like the cold! jeez!).

Personally I find your whole attitude tedious and representative of the 'right on' attitude that I have observed in the US, which is all tied up in 'affirmative action' and all you PC white people 'sticking up for' the oppressed, when really the majority of oppression stems from the latent racism inherent in your Catholic-guilt-esque need to defend people who are perfectly able to defend themselves.

Don't you think that black people are able to fight their own battles? Or do they need some big white American guy to do it for them?

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

If that was aimed at me, I have deliberately made allowances for what I assume is American 'grammar' and spelling, even though it merely gives the impression of inarticulacy.

In reply to Bella:


i don't think ginger is exclusively found in europe. aren't there little chinese enclaves of ginger?

there's a theory that the chinese visited NZ centuries before europeans but don't think many academics give it any credence.

In reply to Bella:
Well the way I heard it was a Scot stowaway jumped ship and swam ashore.

In reply to Bella: If you google red hair Maori, lots of links come up. It's still very much debated. Some say its the natural breakdown of the black hair to a reddish hair in the sun, others say early pre maori settlers.

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummiesnz.html

In reply to Tobias at Home: I think that changed last year. They found a 14C chinese map with NZ clearly drawn. I think they were dating it to test if it was an authentic map. Can't remember the outcome though.

In reply to Ewan Brown:

I always find this thread (and it crops up about once a quarter) very dispiriting, not least because there is never any new material, so I'll do what I always do, and post a link to the Black Environment Network. Whilst not strictly about climbing, it does have several publications and projects aimed at involving all sections of the community in both environmental awareness and the counryside. As a starting point look at the ben Rainbow Countryside Scheme

http://www.ben-network.org.uk/rainbow/intro.html

In reply to IainRUK: Totall off topic, but...I googled it, a site called "White Pride World Wide" came up, and a few other similar sites. It seems that people promoting the theory are using it to justify their opinions that land claims (not just NZ) should be thrown out. There were some pretty sick attitudes on those sites. I find the assertions that there's some sort of government supported and nationwide conspiracy going on in NZ to "cover up the truth" about early immigration and archeological findings fairly hard to believe.

In reply to Bella: ah, sorry, but thought Sherpa's were asian, and not black.and could the south americans (prior to the spanish)have been just south americans? im being a bit of a nit picker here, but obviosly im not the only nit picker.
i think this forum has slipped form the first question into who has the history degree?:-]

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

Climbing doesn't have to be that expensive... you can start off with just a pair of boots and outdoor clothes... if you are a manual labourer you'll already have the latter anyway. Most of the gadgets are not required... then once you're fit you just have to find someone with a rope and tag along.

It gets expensive if you want it too or want to go for the very big hills... for the rest you can just buy the bits and pieces over the years, probably for no more than some spend on fags or beer.

In reply to Nao:


Why do you have more experience than others? We are all some race or other Most being homo sapiens sapiens, of course.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
You're right, obviously white people in the UK and US have experienced lots of racial persecution.

In reply to sam the man:


Damn, I've put my foot in it again... how embarrassing... terribly sorry, I didn't mean to make fun of your difficulty. Lucky your brain is intact, to look on the bright side!

In reply to Nao:

Ask the Irish.

In reply to thomasadixon:

Or the Welsh! Persecuted for their love of sheep... it's so racist. Luckily they are already in the countryside so we don't have to encourage them to get out more.

In reply to Nao:

My girlfriend got beaten up quite a few times in school when she was younger for being Irish, what's that, a plucky insult?

In reply to thomasadixon:

Do you think that Irish people face the same kinds of difficulties that Regis is describing - are they generally (according to him) poorer, worse educated, deprived of amenities and benefits? Do you think they have trouble with access to the countryside?

In reply to thomasadixon:

Whilst we are at it, we should probably ask the question: Why don't more gypsies climb?

In reply to Nao:

No I don't. I agree with virtually everything you've said.

In reply to Nao:

I reckon I've received more racist/nationalistic abuse on a north walean football pitch than most people have in a lifetime.

In reply to Nao:

'Cause they are too busy breaking into all the parked cars at the car park?

In reply to Nao:


Some of them probably have, yes. Quite a few, some would even have the pretension to say the majority of the original inhabitants went there to escape persecution because of their religion or "ethnic" origins. Over the following period it was a haven to people from throughout Europe escaping persecution or oppression, or simply poverty... from England, Ireland, Scotland, Poland and E Europe in general, then Italy, Armenia, Turkey ... the ancestors of most white USians went there to escape some kind of persecution... many then went on to oppress local indians (who themselves will have had their fling at persecution too in the scrabble for land since they arrived from Asia) and import slaves, but that's another question.

To take the moral high ground just because some of ones ancestors may have been persecuted does not seem to be a very healthy attitude, especially as some other ancestors may themselves have persecuted others.

Von Goatlips himself has probably never persecuted anything (apart from the English language), nor have I and imagine that you haven't either, so we are all equal on this point.

In reply to Bella:

and wholemeal?

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

Some quite possibly do. Others find the idea of being forcibly removed from their playstations and street corner drinking buddies a traumatic experience. It all depends on the person, regardless of race or background.

In reply to Ewan Brown:
Why aren't there many top black swimmers?
Why aren't there many good white sprinters?
Its horses for courses.

In reply to Nick Beckett:

Didn't understand what you wrote to me.

Secondly, if our ideas or such bollocks, would you care to suggest something?

In reply to Al Evans:

Why aren't there any good Welsh people?
Why are yanks so pro America?
Why are do french people have big noses?
Why do italins cars go so fast in reverse?
Why do i talk so much garbage?
cos im bored.

In reply to kevin k:


And racist too... wash your keyboard out with soap and water immediately and administer 100 lashes!

Unless you are part of an oppressed minority, of course, in which case I apologize and if you'll give me your banking details I'll send to a compensation cheque. How much do you require, I prefer to settle out of court? I'll need a chit from a minister of religion proving your oppression status, of course.

In reply to Ridge:

no Soya!!
i pulled myself up before, so na na too late

In reply to es:

You're pretty rude and don't read properly. The comments I made were quite generalised. Of course, you work night and then you can climb during the day. Have you read the whole of my reply? I mentioned about difficulties in finding partner that work nights as you do during the week. I belong to a large local climbing club. They go out to the crag on Wednesday evenings during the summer months when there's still light after 5pm. Then, in winter months they book a climbing wall on Wednesday evenings for club's sole use. Most of my friends in the club work regular 9-5. I worked in a night club in Newcastle for a year. 9pm-2.30am ish. You feel knackered 10am the next morning if you need to go climbing. You'd rather be in bed, wouldn't you? Otherwise, you get no sleep. If you don't sleep, you're going to kill/injure yourself on routes or make silly mistakes! Worse still. When I worked in the nightclub, I had no car. So I couldn't even go bouldering during the weekday days by myself. I had to rely on other people, who weren't available. Do you understand?

Most of my friends have weekends off when they go off climbing. When you have to work at weekends, how are you going to go away with them? Hey?

What you were on about was climbing by yourself or if you're luck to have someone to climb with during the week. I'd rather rest during the day if I work late.

In reply to Al Evans: em, because, west African/carrabian people naturaly consist of fast twich muscle fibres(what sprinters need, not however what swimmers need(also down to natural bone structure, eg im shaped very much like a jamaican sprinter, and as fit as most swimmers, but im crap at swimming AND i have good tecnique) You are reffering to sports but it is so obvious that its nothing to do with body type,(which you have accidently done)

In reply to Ewan Brown:


Aren't these any good for climbing... I'd have thought that a bit of fast twitching could be quite useful sometimes?

In reply to Colin Barwell:


Wow you really haven't entered the 21st century have you?

In reply to Al Evans:

Is he kidding?
I'm white and have always been a VERY fast sprinter.
But in truth if you are serious Al, you've just exposed yourself as a racist.
If not, my mistake and your joke is still in very bad taste.

In reply to Ewan Brown:

So why do the Kenyans consistently beat everyone else at long-distance running? You use slow-twitch muscle fibres for that.

In reply to Maria Dixon: yep, you find many top long distance runners who are from etheopia and kenya. but these are East/south east Africans. i was refering to west africans(ghana, nigeria, togo) and carrabian black people.

In reply to Maria Dixon:

Kenya is in East Africa.

In reply to GrahamD: like i said. wen i said south east, i meant the people there also are mainly slow twich people. my mistake

To get back on topic - there are loads of climbers who are black or from other ethnic groups. Come to Bristol where the major indoor venue is in the middle of the city and see. Many happy hours spent there with climbers of all ethnic persuations

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

Well many of them do. I have worked in outdoor education in the states (specifically on getting Urban kids into the outdoors and on dealing with racism amongest young people) and live and climb and am from Britian - climbing culture and race politics are very different between the two countries - the whole concept of widerness is highly racialised in the states - but am sure you know that.

In reply to all: physical attributes aren't really of any importance. we aren't talking about what race makes the best climber but participation levels. doing a Fr5+, VS or easy boulder problem rarely taxes physically.

In reply to Ewan Brown:
This is actually something want an answer to so i`ve asked this lot http://groups.google.co.uk/group/soc.culture.african.american/topics?hl=en-...
wonder if we`ll get any answers?

In reply to J1234:

Nooooooo!

In reply to Ridge:
Yeeeeeeeessssss, why not. If you want to know ask. This is the trouble, everybody is so PC they`re frightened to ask people questions. I`ve asked full on Islam types some real good questions and had some really interesting chats and never a negative response once they realise i`m not taking the P122.
Cheers Beds

In reply to Ewan Brown:

Its about role models. Leo Houlding got me into climbing, and if young blacks dont see black people climbing, they dont associate it with something they want to do.

Also, the climbing community can be quite cliqué to someone on the outside.

In reply to Hugo Terry:

I never had any role models, never knew about anything except that I felt like climbing that cliff near me and a top-rope made me safe. Leading, etc I learned later.

If everyone needed to copy someone else no one would ever have done anything.

Interesting thread.

Racism is pervasive, and at the moment it's consider unacceptable in most parts of society, so it's rare to see it bandied about openly.

On the web however, with the help of anonymity, people often feel free to say what they really think, which while healthy can often reveal their true views. I remember Matt Strong, the chairman of the Manchester University Labour Club - a lad tipped for a future in politics and an outspoken advocate of equality and inclusion in public - was investigated last year for posting incredible racist abuse about "f*cking darkies" and "coons" on a web forum.

You might say that's not surprising from somoene in politics, but it just goes to show how people's true feelings come out online.

In reply to Hugo Terry:

I could wear some 'black and white minstrel' face paint and an afro wig?

In reply to Ewan Brown:
Sorry if this has been said, but it`s strange that the scouts have`nt got more black people into climbing.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

An absurd accusation.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

like bill oddie on speed.

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:

Or you are just an oversensitive bellend?

In reply to Ewan Brown:
Ive not read all the posts so this might have already been said....however, i noticed at the start of this thread someone mentioned many climbers get into the sport at university and for various reasons this means there are less black climbers. I go to the university of leicester, the most cultureally diverse university in britain (i think i am actually an ethnic minority here) yet there are still no black climbers in the uni club. Just food for thought...

In reply to Ewan Brown:
What does it matter! I would say there is something wrong with a somewhat warped interest in who is climbing next to you on the crag or across from you in the valley/gorge, it makes no difference what colour,creed, sexuality or gender as long as they are safe, you are safe and you subconsiously are aware of the risks and safety of each other in the environment you choose to climb.
try getting your ass away from the computer screen and out to the crags and start noticing more climbers !

In reply to cliffgorilla:


Safety is a bit overrated, and contradictory with the desire to clamber up mountains! It doesn't have much to do with the subject either

In reply to cliffgorilla: fair enough point. but you could say that about most of the postings.

In reply to Ewan Brown:


2% (the number of black people as a percentage of the UK population) is a small number of people within the climbing community, it's pretty understandable you don't see many black climbers, purely on a statistical basis.

In reply to Frank Sidebottom: ah rite, i just thought it would be a much higher percentage than that, as suposadly next year, white will be the minority in Birmingham, and black will be the majority. but it might not be black, its probably just anybody whos not british. so i was probably told wrong.

In reply to Ewan Brown: i think the percentage of ethnic minorities in the uk as a whole is around the 10% mark

In reply to Ewan Brown:

British and black are not mutually exclusive! You could be heading for stormy weather on this tack

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

And ethnic minorities aren't always 'coloured'.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: oh shit your rite there. oh deary me

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips: you are the biggest pillock ever! youre the caricature of political correctness.
Al evans was right, few top black swimmers due too high muscle mass, few white 'olympic standard' sprinters as darkies have more fast twitch fibres.

Is it not more racist people say things about you been a yank than a discussion on potential reasons why less afro-carribbeans climb.

In reply to Cragdog al: nice post al, gotta agree with you..
'Regis' - Al is not being a racist, he's stating that certain ethnic groups harbour genetic predispositions towards certain sports. i thought that this was an accepted fact... its certainly been in new scientist and scientific american relating fast/slow twitch fibre genetics to ethnic group; but then maybe they're just a bunch of racists too. or maybe admitting that not all races are identical genetically isnt racist at all, just like saying that men and women are, overall, genetically predisposed towards different sports is not sexist.

In reply to Cragdog al:

'Darkies'?! Wow!..... You must be someones grandmother.

In reply to feepole:

He means black people... the thread title is about "black climbers"... To simplify he uses a comparative term "dark", and invents a noun from it "darky" - "darkies" in the plural.

It's quite simple really if you break it down step by step

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Ah yes of course... Such straight-forward logical thinking.

Such a shame they don't see it that way, they always seem to get so offended. Same with them 'pakis'.... such a shame they lack the enlightenment of the modern climbing fraternity.

In reply to feepole:

Who gets offended?

Isn't "paki" a friendly term used to refer to people who the speaker thinks come from Pakistan? I think "darky" is more for people with black(ish) skin, wherever they come from, Brixton for example.

There's someone from Brixton who posts here who could probably put you straight on this point, even if he is French himself.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Sadly the innocent coonotations of "Paki" and "Darky" (along with "Nigger") were lost a long time ago.

In reply to GrahamD:

Please tell me that was an inocent typo!!!

In reply to feepole:

Oooops ! Freudian slip.

In reply to Ewan Brown: And everyone else. I'm not racist but... Shut up you pricks.

In reply to Ewan Brown: probably because you're racist (what a stupid qu. to ask).

In reply to workings36:

Not sure that its racist to ask the question. It seems quite pertinant, given the lack of many high profile black climbers.

Not so sure about some of the responses that have appeared mind you. Some do seem to have a slightly unsavoury whiff about them!

In reply to Ewan Brown:

You were told wrong. This is obviously wrong to anyone from Birmingham but a cursory google shows that in 2001 29.6% of the city's population were from an ethnic group other than white.
http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/GenerateContent?CONTENT_ITEM_ID=26205&CONT... Unless, of course, there's now 410,0377 less whites than ethnics in Brum (or vice versa/or a mix there of) than 5 years ago.

In reply to feepole:


It's all that spicy food they eat!

In reply to workings36: what u on about im not racisist, i wouldnt have a black girlfriend otherwise. i just made an easy mistake about the birmingham thing i said. 'Racist' is a very strong word and i feel insulted that you would think that but its just your weird opinion at the end of the day.

In reply to Ewan Brown: I'm a 'black climber', and I'd like to say that a large part of the reason for the lack of ethnic minorities participating in outdoor activities is due to the location of their residence. Most ethnic minorities live in clusters, focussed around urban areas, so have little or no contact with the outdoors.

I climb at Mile End Climbing Wall, in East London, and have noticed more diversity there than anywhere else in the UK - climbing has become an alternative to the gym, so more inner city dwellers see indoor climbing as an exciting and involving way of keeping fit. As the lack of suitable role models for young black men lead to an excess of potential footballers, runners or rugby players, the outdoor activities are completely unknown, and the culture seems inaccessible.

Having a different background to many Black British males, I can say that I have loved the outdoor environment from an early age, and had the opportunity to get involved in youth organisations that valued the experiential qualities of the outdoor environment. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have been involved in outdoor activities and am less likely to have followed a non-street focussed lifestyle.

As a Black British climber, it would be nice to see more young ethnic minorities get involved in the outdoor industry, especially in activities that can be run in inner-city areas, i.e. climbing, kayaking etc.

A very good point, one to which I have responded, has been made, and without exposure to the outdoor world, and positive messages being spread, the industry will neglect young, disenfranchised black males as they have been for time immemorial.

In reply to Ewan Brown:
Im speaking from a personal point of view having a variety of friends and family from a mixed ethnic background (im your typical white male...) but most of my (non climbing)friends think im a freekin loon for doing what i do on the crag and they wouldn't do it for all the tea in china... the point im trying to say is whites are a majority its fact, climbers are a minority thats fact,therefore its fair to say 'non whites' are a minority in climbing circles it's bound to be, we are all the same creed....climbers...nutters, its what we do.