UKC

When you first started climbing, what did you wear? What were your boots like, were they nailed? Clinkers or tricounis? Were tricounis better? Did you have your boots made, or did you modify ordinary boots? What about the older climbers you knew then, what did they have on their feet?

And what clothes did you wear when you started? Did you ever buy clothes especially to climb in them, or did trousers simply get called your climbing trousers once they were too tatty for everyday use?

When did you first get a pair of PAs (later called EBs). What did you think of Boreal Fires when they first appeared?

And finally... do you still have any of your old gear? Nailed boots? EBs?

In reply to gingerkate:

I'm old but not old enough to answer most of your questions, sorry. EB's were well established when I started in the early 70s.

Ian

In reply to gingerkate: No, they were 'Masters' Pa's were a bit advanced.
But I did start in Kletter shues, Krabs were Iron and we had steel nuts as our must have. They were scarey monsters, its why I think all the modern stuff are wendies.

In reply to gingerkate: Never had Fires

In reply to co1ps:
So those are EBs. I'd not have realised they weren't modern boots if you hadn't said, but they look a fair bit clumpier? What were teh soles like? I don't suppose you still have a pair?

In reply to Al Evans:

What were Kletter shues?

And what were Masters?

And the steel nuts, were they made for climbing or bought from ironmongers or what?

In reply to gingerkate: Hi Kate,

I started in 1964 and by then Vibram soled boots had replaced nails and even back then I saw very few 'older' climbers wearing nailed boots. The most popular rock boots at that time were Masters, or RDs. PAs were hard to get hold of just then but re-appeared a few years later as EBs. Cord or Moleskin Breeches, long red socks, hairy tartan shirts, and big wolly pullovers were the norm (and we thought we looked really cool!

When Fires first appeared in 1984 they made a big difference. The first time I wore a pair at Caley I did 4 problems straight off that I'b been failing on for years.

Dave

In reply to gingerkate:

from what I've heard it was a case of finding a machine nut and slinging it on some cord...

unless of course he's refering to the balls of steel needed to climb with that gear!

In reply to gingerkate:

I made most of my early nuts in scholl metalwork lessons. Mild steel wedges and threaded hexagonal bar. They were pretty heavy.

Dave

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

That must've been a magic moment when you got Fires then. Do you still have any of your old handmade nuts?

In reply to gingerkate: The soles were quite a hard high carbon rubber, which were loads better than PAs or 'Hawkins Rock Hoppers' etc. This made the sole 'rather hard wearing', so they could last for years! Re-soles were virtually unknown then, compared to contemporary shoues which last me maybe 4 or 5 months.
Sadly I don't have a pair, which is a shame....they took me up some pretty reasonable extremes at the time, and we all thought they were top notch.
Comfy too.....none of this snug fit mullarky. I used to get a nice thick pair of socks on in mine!

In reply to gingerkate:

I started in 1967 going to a school field study centre at Kielder.

Used a hemp waistline, steel screwgate and cable laid nylon ropes (No 4) climbed in vibram soled walking boots.

Progressed on to nylon tape waistlegnth, and baseball boots, reverted to boots until sixteen when I got my first pair of EBs (after selling my bike!)Standard went up overnight from Hard Severe to HVS.

Over the years, and before modern 'sticky boots' I used a variety of footwear, did the second ascent of some routes in Northumberland (up to E4) in Klettershue a lightweight boot with a thin ribbed vibram sole which worked quite well.

All my crabs were still steel Stubai 'D' weighed half a ton and a mish mash of slings and odd nuts, some home made. I had a home made harness by then, a copy of a troll waistbelt that I had a local cobbler stitch up.

Clothing was a mix of some real outdoor gear (the waterproof top) and adapted stuff, some of which was ex military. Wool norge sweaters or the like were the norm until Helly Hansen polarwear came along.

By age 18 or so my hardware had changed and I was using mainly alloy crabs and decent nuts (Chouniard stuff had arrived by then) and I'd progressed to kernmantle ropes.

I was slow to get my first pair of real contemporary stickies, but they were a revelation after carbon soled boots - you'd have to climb in EBs, RDs, Masters, PA's and those that closely followed to appreciate the difference.

Regards,

Steve

In reply to Dave Musgrove: I have never understood why I used to climb in the Avon Gorge in breeches and a woolly tartan shirt - even in the summer.
I inherited a worn pair of PAs from my bro, friction was sh*t but they had a really stiff sole excellent for edging - I walked the crux of Vector in them in a way I've never been able to do since.

I started off using Hiatt steel karabiners - they were wrong in so many ways, really heavy (4 oz in old money) and viciously sharp edges on the gate that would catch your rope, your fingers, usually both.

In reply to Dave Musgrove:


Yes I had that revelation on Finger Distance - Curbar. Have to admit - it felt like cheating!


Chris

In reply to gingerkate: Sadly no, Kate. I did keep some for years but they eventually disappeared during various house moves. The oldest piece of equipment I still have, and use regularly for now for bolting, is a Stubai peg hammer which I bought in 1966.

Dave

In reply to gingerkate:
EVERYONE had EB's
Good lord no

or did trousers simply get called your climbing trousers once they were too tatty for everyday use?

exactly. and it's not easy to see your feet in 21inch flare jeans!

In reply to gingerkate:

A bit like today's approach shoes, usually suede with a treaded rubber sole. Mine were inherited and 2 sizes too large, which meant using the side of feet rather than toe points.
After hurting myself on a bowline around the waist on a hemp rope, I graduated to 20 ft (6m) of hemp cord tied around and around the waist with a krab to attach the rope.
My first sticky shoes were P.A's bought from Ellis Brigham in Sheffield (wasn't called Ellis Brigham then, can't recall exactly what it was called tho) for £32 in 1968 LOL

In reply to gingerkate: I am just a youngster (same age as you!) but I started climbing in the late 70's. As I recall there were two types of EB's. There were the original type which dominated the shoe market and no-one could really break their monopoly then they switched suppliers and the later ones were not so good. Other manufacturers cottoned on to this and it was the beginning of the end for EB's. Maybe some of the older guys remember this?

I remember getting a pair of Fires after climbing for a few years in EB's, they were just amazing! I shot up to E1 in no time flat!

I also used to climb in Glasgow wearing lycra - now thats hardcore. Or complete stupidity.

For a long time as well you were only a 'real' climber if you wore a tatty old Helly Hansen fibrepile fleece zip-up jersey, they were the boys. Most folk had navy blue but I also had a red one, I was totally at the cutting edge of fashion in those days!

In reply to Chris Craggs: I think I started climbing in 1972, maybe 1973. At the time EBs were the most popular rockboot although others which were occasionally seen included PAs, Gollies, a model by Hawkins (Masters ?) and RDs(rockshoes not the big alpine boots - from memory very stiff so hopeless for smearing but good for edging on small holds).

Clothes were mostly jeans,teeshirts & thick jumpers for crags, breeches & woolly shirts for the mountains - fleece arrived a year or two later. My first cag was a lightweight Peter Storm (kneelength) later replaced with a Henri Lloyd bright orange heavy weight which lasted some 15 years abuse (laterly mostly for canoeing or sailing)

For winter/the Alps RD Super Guides were probably the most common, with either Salewa (bendy)or Chouinard (rigid) crampons.

In reply to gingerkate:

Early 1970s http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/77151541

Waist belays, daft ski-hats, flared trousers, I'm wearing my 1st proper rock shoes (RDs if I remember - the soles were hard a nails!) Nig has EBs on.
I'm pretty sure I have a harness on but can't tell. If do it would have been a Davek.

Chris

In reply to gingerkate:

What's happened to Sutty's UKC profile - has he gone?

In reply to Dave Musgrove: I made wooden wedges in woodwork (using the best mahogany, slightly bow-shaped in cross section so that they 'bent' into the crack).
I had tape slings mostly for gear, with pegs for mountain routes. My first boots consisted of either big hiking boots or green suede FB's, like winklepickers with a bendy vibram sole. Then RD's that lasted me until 10 years ago.

The biggest difference by far that I see is in protection, In the mid 60's on the harder stuff, you very often set off on a hard pitch with the thought that you had to make it to the belay, backing off half way was not an option because getting any gear in was not a certainty. If I miss anything, it's this routine level of commitment, the buzz lasted for days.

In reply to Dave Musgrove: Or could this have been due to the advent of training on the Richard Dunn wall at Odsal top!

In reply to gingerkate: I'd forgotten about harnesses (or lack of).
Didn't have one for quite a while, so used to go round my waist a couple of times with the rope then finish it off with a figure of 8 knot.
About my third time out, I seconded 'Darius' on High Tor, and almost got cut in two dangling on the rope.
I graduated to a borrowed 'Whillans' harness, which I'm sure other 'gentlemen' on here will explain. Then finally I got my first taste of comfort in a Troll 'Mark 6'...the daddy!

In reply to gingerkate: You can see me leading in old kit. there is a picture of me leading Deja Vu in EB's somewhere on this site,

In reply to gingerkate: When I started I wore stiffened Vibram soled boots then graduated to Masters (British smooth-soled rock boots); harnesses didn't exist so wore a hemp waistline linked to a hawser laid rope by a heavy steel screwgate krab. Clothing was a tartan shirt or Ventile anorak with moleskin breeches. Gear was steel snaplink krabs with the very first generation of Clog nuts (hexagons) and MOACS. I still have much of the stuff in a box in the attic.

In reply to gingerkate: I started in 1968 after doing a course at Plas y Brenin. Climbed with a hemp waistline and large (heavy) steel screwgate karabiner plus big (mountain)vibram boots. In our first proper weekend away we went and led all of the climbs that we had seconded on the course in N Wales up to V diff. In subsequent weeeks we did the rest up to Hard Severe. Only other gear was a few Hiatt steel krabs and a few slings. First outings on to grit and Cornish granite after a month or so confirmed that we needed something better than big boots to get friction. Bought a pair of PA's. Rubber went dead hard after a while so hardly stealth! After about a year bought EB's and then we cracked HVS/E1 (or extreme as it was then) Think by then we had Moac nuts and a Troll Waist Belt. Got one of the first Whillans harnesses when they came out.

At first climbed in moleskin breeches and long socks, subsequently cast-off flared trousers. First stickies were a pair of Super Crag Rats. Dragged up an E5 in Avon by Dave Viggers he said I would have climbed it better in Fires. So I got a pair of those. Stuck with those until I had a pair of Boreal Aces for years. My modern Anasasi Velcros knock them all into a cocked hat!

In reply to gingerkate:


Having become accustomed to EBs the boots that replaced them (including Fires) were vastly inferior in terms of edging & precision. don't remember them as being at all 'clumpy'. I suspect that it's only recently that anything comparable has become available.

Ian

Ian

In reply to gingerkate:
I'm not of that generation, my Dad is though, and I have the photographic records! He still goes in to raptures about the Hush Puppies he used to use to climb in. After seeing the tightness of the trousers he used to wear I'm surprised I was born!
I dont think he made any of his own gear, but he did make his own nut key in mtalwork, it's still in use. We're still using some of the old hexes that have been rethreaded.

In reply to nikinko:


I think there is a lot of exaggeration concerning "new" gear.. gotta make a living I suppose!

Using steel nuts or home made ones was no neckier than modern ones... the advantage of steel nuts (make sure you ream out the thread BTW) was you could put several on the same sling. Aluminium nuts and moacs already existed in the early 70s late 60s. No cams of course but one can do without except on certain routes.

Ropes were much the same although we still used platted nylon too, vibram soled boots were the norm, often lighter and better for rock climbing than today's, Lawrie's in particular. EBs and PAs and the British cheaper equivalent: Masters seemed as good as modern ones with the added advantage of covering the ankles which protects the skin... Modern rubber may be slightly better but didn't notice this myself when I restarted climbing a few years ago...

What else, harnesses, didn't bother at the time, although I did get a troll climbing belt to hang gear on... ally crabs existed but we still used a few cheaper steel ones...

The other good point was no one soiled the rock with chalk... and the scourge of mass bolting was rare, basically it seems to me that there hasn't been really that much useful progress concerning rock gear, in many ways bolts and chalk, for example, have had a very negative effect. Ice gear on the other hand has improved a lot concerning axes in particular, we already had front point crampons - Grivels or Salewa.

In reply to gingerkate: I started climbing in 1956 and still have a pair of nailed boots. Took them to Gordale one day last year - much to the amusement of many and actually did a route in them ! Must take them out to Kalymnos or similar and hang around in them - start a 'new' trend. (They were great in the wet and 'front pointing' on small sharp holds - and you thought Anasazis were the business ). I'll mail you a picture of them if you're really that interested !

In reply to gingerkate: Kletters had a steel stiffener that ran along the length of the boot between the inner and outer soles. I started in 63/64 wearing a pair of second hand boots bought from a mate. State of the art vibram soles. Climbed vs in them. Then again there was only vs then. Still got a few steel crabs made by stubai.
Don`t think boreal have ever made a good boot.
Rob

In reply to gingerkate:

Started around 1969 with a pair of bendy walking boots (Scarpa Neros), 100 ft of No 3 Hawser laid rope, hemp waistlength, 2 screwgates, 2 snap Krabs - heavy steel Cassin ones, and a couple of longish nylon slings.

That did for my first routes in Northumberland (Simonside & Great Wanney up to V Diff) then got a couple of nuts, my first Moac.

Went to Causey, met Ed Thompson and started climbing in plimsolls. Used a Karrimor Waist belt plus homemade tape sit sling as an early sit harness. Rack went up to about half a dozen nuts and half a dozen krabs plus some tape slings. -- That was enough for multipitch VS's in the lakes.

Clothing -- generally used my old cycling breetches (plus 2's) and found wearing cycling shorts (woollen - no lycra in them days) underneath them great for draughty belays. Outerwear was generaly the ubiquitous woolly sweater, topped by a cagoule if it was wet or windy. I still wear cycling shorts underneath if I'm anticipating chilly or draughty stances - some old tricks you never forget!

Led my first VS, then decided I was a good enough climber to warrant a pair of PA's (the red & black Galibier ones -- second hand of course).

Progressed to EB's then Calanques. Bypassed Fires, and got some Asolo Canyons.

About the oldest gear I've got is an original Whillans Harness, and my son still uses my old Karrimor Aiguille sack. I've still got my Galibier Super Guide mountain boots from about 1975, along with MSR Ice Axe and Salewa Crampons.

In reply to all:

This is all great stuff, I'm lapping it up, keep it coming. Anyone who's said they've got old gear/clothes/boots around, I'll be dropping you an email from here if that's ok.

I remember when I first climbed, around 87, my partner telling me that the rubber used on the boots... which I suppose would've been Boreal Fires or an early copy.... derived from teh rubber used for racing car tyres, needing the same quality of stickiness.

Does anyone know if that's true?

In reply to Bogsy:


Sound's just like my Dad's gear. He climbed a bit in the late 60's but claims my Mum banned him when she got pregnant with my older sister (born at the start of 72). When I started showing an interest in climbing around 89 or 90 my Dad dug out his old gear and said I could have it. He said he never led a lot so he only had the basics but that was a pair of suede Klettershues, a steel screwgate and a "life line" exactly as you describe - you wrapped it round and round your waist so it hurt less than just tying straight on to the rope. I wore the Klettershues a bit, but they were a bit too big and didn't seem to be awful lot better than a pair of walking boots. Eventually I saved up enough money to get some proper climbing shoes.

In reply to gingerkate:
All my Dad's old gear has migrated in to a demonstartion box at work. When we run introduction to climbing courses we show them old kit and give them a bit of history about the sport.

In reply to gingerkate: I've heard the same thing about sticky rubber. The first time that most climbers in this country heard of sticky rubber was when Jerry Moffat climbed Master's Wall wearing a pair of Fires (1983?).

In reply to gingerkate:

Started in 1966 up Tryfan with my Dad. Ex Army boots nailed with Triple-Hobs. Jeans, pullover and a bike cape to keep off the rain. Mind you that was a bit old fashioned even then but Dad had started in the 1930's and not really kept up!

In reply to gingerkate: I assumed that was true about Fires, used to see mates demonstrate rubbing the soles together so they 'stuck' to each other.Also remember hearing the rubber additive was a bit toxic?

In reply to dek: I think it was the glue used to stick the soles on that was toxic, rather than an additive.

In reply to gingerkate:

After thought. See my picture gallery for some shots of the 1940's.

In reply to John2:

I've just been looking on Boreal's site. They have a history section. Yes, 1983 was the year the took the climbing world by storm, (the prototype Fire was designed in 1980). But they don't seem to say anything about the rubber's origins.

In reply to dave wearing:
The one on Flake Crack, would those be nailed boots or what?

In reply to TobyA:

When I started a few people had Klets, but more because they were better for walking down and didn't hurt so much - they were never reckoned as much good for rock climbing. The other point of a hemp waist line was you could cut bits off for abseil slings... till it got too short, of course.

I've go a virtually unused pair of EBs somewhere that I bought for my wife in about 82. She wouldn't put up with the pain and doesn't like climbing anyway... the rubber looks the same as modern stuff to me.

In reply to gingerkate: My father in law wore hockey boots with the studs cut off. For gear amongst other things, he got his dad (a toolmaker) to drill holes in the steel tips from stilleto shoes and thread them on v. thin cord.

In reply to dek:


You're not sposed to eat them, you know.

In reply to John2: Ahh okay i thought the 'additive' was to keep the rubber soft? but its a long time ago

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Times were ard in them days...what did you have as bivvy food?

In reply to gingerkate: We were told (by various shoe reps when I worked in a climbing shop) that the Fires rubber was as sticky as racing car tyres. Also that the reason all the rubber came from Spain was they added strychnine to the compound as thats what made it sticky. However strychnine is so toxic that only Spain had laws lax enough to allow adding it to the rubber in open vats. Dont know if its true but that what we were told.

In reply to dek:

You had food!? Softy!

In reply to gingerkate:

Bought my first pair of EBs from centre sport in Leeds in 1972, certainly still had them until our last move. Never thought of buying clothes for climbing, just used everyday wear.
Bought two hawser laid 11mm nylon ropes, a collection of steel krabs and a few slings from a guy in the Leeds Mountaineering club for £8, and that was the only gear I had until I supplemented it with a couple of Moacs on wires and a couple of chocks to fit with cord, bought from Blacks of Greenock in Leeds.
Pete

In reply to gingerkate: Started in the mid 60,s on a Mountaineering Assoc course in Borrowdale-used a no 4 hawser laid rope,hemp waist belt and big steel screw gate that was sent in the post!!-leading multi pitch v diffs in bendy walking boots by the end of the week with the odd nylon sling on spikes for pro-waist belay on stances.
Graduated to kletts and then Masters soon after although also remember experimenting on Upper Scout Crag in a pair of rubber soled soccer boots to see if they gave better friction!
Had done a snow gully on Helvellyn before the early rock experience in a pair of town shoes-winkle pickers (dont ask!), they were like mono points!-just seemed a nice way up and less boring then the walk we were on with the school-oh and we walked from Keswick and back on the road-try that now with health/safety regs!!

In reply to callum: Aye that rings a bell, noo wash your hands!

In reply to gingerkate:

Yes they are nailed, probably with tricounis. It was either that or tennis shoes then. I still use a crab from that era to carry my tiddly wires on. (Link with the past!)

In reply to gingerkate:

Late 50s/early 60s.

I wore moleskin breeches with a knitted heavy jersey, and (hides face!) long red socks! They were just for climbing and walking in. Also used a heavy duty Ventile smock which was suprisingly waterproof, but got heavy when wet.

Never climbed in tricounis - rubber "Commando" soles had just been introduced and were all the rage. Some of my older friends still climbed in nails. The climbing boots were leather, very heavy and had a steel shank in the sole to stiffen them. Also used klettershues (klets) - moulded rubber soles with felt uppers- for more delicate rock climbing, before getting PAs which were a huge improvement. Plimsols were also used.

Some people still used hemp ropes - I did for Southern Sandstone. Nylon laid ropes were just coming in for trad climbing (although it wasn't called trad then). There were no harnesses you tied in with a bowline round the waist and wioding a thin hemp rope around your waist several times tied in with a Tarbuck knot was coming in.

I very recently got rid of some (now rusting) steel Stubai krabs (including a screw gate) which I brought back from Austria in 1963 when they were difficult to get hold of over here. I have also recently got rid of my 1960s wooden shafted long ice axe.

Why do you ask?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Me? no!..... ate the mates grub, but that ploy was unsustainable

In reply to callum:
I'll have to email Boreal and see if that's true, because that's fascinating if so. Cheers for that snippet.

In reply to gingerkate: Sounds like by asking this question you've "made a lot of old men very happy", giving them a chance to wander down memory lane. Here's my own contribution. I started climbing in the late '60s. No-one I knew then wore nailed boots, but lots of people climbed in Vibrams or Kletts. I recall seeing my first pair of "cheating boots" (PAs) in about 1968, but I think EBs became available about the same time and must have been cheaper, because everyone went for them. We used to sometimes leave our EBs behind as there was a theory that good footwork was fostered by wwearing big clunking mountain boots. I recall leading Shadow Wall in Llanberis pass in a huge pair of Lionel Terray's, stiff as a board, and deadly for walking in.
Harnesses were fun, too. Most people just tied a bowline round their waist and belaying was by waist belay, so not many people were brave enough to risk a leader fall and Jessies like me really only led things we'd already seconded, or things well within our grade. I lived in Leek at that time where webbing for car seat belts was made and we got offcuts from the mill to make our own harnesses. Really, these were just wide cushioning devices and had loops (held on with pop rivets) through which the rope was threaded before tying with a bowline at the front.
Gear was rudimentary. I had several large spliced slings of white nylon hawser-laid rope, and some large machine nuts threaded on to tape. I soon became a proud owner of the classic Moac wedge on rope - I have a theory that there is a placement for one of these on every route I've ever done in UK - and later some small alloy wedges on wire, which always fell out. I had three steel (not iron, Al!) oval screw gate crabs, and thought I was well-equipped.
My first rope was 35m of 11m kernmantel (much like modern ropes) as these were just becoming popular when I started. I eventually bequeathed it (1990s) to the "path" up to Beeston Tor's right wall. Is it still there?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
and the scourge of mass bolting was rare,

Not entirely true. In the early 60s, we didn't consider it wrong to bang in a peg to belay to or ab from if you couldn't find anything else

In reply to gingerkate:

Hi Kate. As a relative youngster I'm not sure if I qualify
Anyhow, I started climbing in 1977 & the only shoes of any consequence were EBs, which I wore for almost all my climbing period then. By 1983 they had changed their rubber compound & lost sales, etc. I was forced to buy something else, made by Asolo I think, but not as good as the old EBs. I still have 2 decrepit pairs of EBs & the others. I missed the onset of sticky rubber.
Started with a Troll belt, then quickly got a Whillans harness. Joe Brown Ultimate helmet (yellow fibreglass). Tended to wear tracksuit bottoms & North Cape jacket where appropriate, for winter & the Alps Rohan salopettes. There are pics of me in some of this gear in my gallery (don't all laugh at once please!), & a nice pic of Jon Tinker in salopettes, tartan shirt & EBs.
I've still got quite a lot of this stuff, though the salopettes have shrunk round the waist quite a bit
Mike

In reply to gingerkate: Let us know what they say Kate, I've been believing it for nigh on 30 years, would be good to know the truth.

In reply to Trangia:

I am researching again. I'm loving the image of you all in your breeches and long red socks

Coming forward a few decades... I don't suppose anyone still has their lycra tights?

In reply to ray:
That's brilliant. I love it.

In reply to gingerkate: Lucky for you I threw them out a couple of years ago. They had vertical light blue and orange stripes (very slimming!). I always wanted black and orange but could never find them.

In reply to gingerkate:
I heard at the time that it was aircraft tyre rubber, which seemed believable.
Started in plimsols & my oldest trousers @ Harrisons in 67 and then tried to lead severes at Avon in bendy walking boots with a couple of slings - slings by the way were a length of v stiff tape tied in double overhand - as others said, the nuts ( an innovation in the early 70's I think) I had were old brass nuts with the thread filed down. Hiatt crabs were heavy! Then came EBs. waistbelt evolution - there's a subject - started with 20' of hemp wound round & knotted, then a waist belt with loops for gear, then the Whillans which had leg/crutch loops, then what we have now. Helmets always seemed to be there. Chalk was frowned upon by many for several years. Ropes were nylon hawsaw (sp)and very stiff - especially when wet. Belays were round the waist and there were no abseil devices to speak of. And (are you reading this Chris?) the guidebooks were usually rubbish - esp in the Lakes, they are just soooo much better now.

In reply to gingerkate:


Almost certaintly have a pair or two in the attic back in Scotland, maybe including my old favourite pair (pale blue with yellow spots). Think I have a pair here in France which I used for xc skiing (fairly tasteful dark blue)

In reply to gingerkate:

Hi Kate.
Bypassing all the above nostalgia... (all true and worse)...
Why do you want to know about these byegone times and ways?
A gentle curiosity? or something more?

Also curious.
Carl

In reply to gingerkate:

By 'eck

There's a lot of us old buggers still about!

We must have been doing something right - or were just too stupid to be put off the sport for life considering the rudimentary gear we started with.

Done know how long these youngsters will stick at it, when they've got all the advantages of modern gear to start with, and indoor walls for when it's pissing down.

A couple of good soakings on the hill will sort out the 'men from the boys'

In reply to gingerkate: first climbed in Hawkins Walkins boots,at Almscliff !! early 60,s probably couldnt get of the ground with them now,,Hemp waist band wrapped around a few times and knotted,Fishermans I think,then screwgate carabiner into that ,and then the rope,waist belays..no runners as such other than rope around chock stones,and dont Fall...we even jumped of boulders,no mats then ..no Gore tex.no decent fleece,or gloves even for winter climbing..slow cars..poor tents .apart from the Blacks Montain tent,and Arctic guinea..

In reply to Dave Musgrove: That is a perfect description of me climbing at that time. Brings back memories of the gear etc, the PAs and RDs. Tying my own chocks climbimg in the rain. 60 this summerso off to N Wales for a trip down memory lane.

In reply to victorclimber:

There's something I'm not understanding. If there were no runners apart from chockstones, weren't you effectively soloing any route that lacked chockstones? So why even bother with the rope... was it just for the second? And is that where 'the leader doesn't fall' came from... I had assumed it came from when ropes were a bit rubbish, but no gear at all would be a more crucial aspect!

So who first used nuts?

Btw Sutty says he's reading, but unable to log in for some tech reason that Nick is sorting out.

In reply to gingerkate: When I said chocks this was a term used for nuts then. They were bought individually but ties with cord from 3 - 9 mm. Such relief when wires came out.

In reply to carl dawson:
I'm researching ... will answer more fully when I can. But I do love hearing about all this sort of stuff.

In reply to ALAN PIKE:
I'm trying to imagine placing these chocks... the floppiness of the cord must have made getting them where you wanted a bit of a nightmare? Were they called chocks because up until then the only gear had been chockstones and a chock was a bit like a portable mini-chockstone (Well, sort of. Obviously not used the same way)?

In reply to gingerkate:


You could thread slings around chockstones with or without krabs, drape slings over spikes or loop the rope over a handy knob of rock. CD Milners' book Rock for Climbing 1950 has many photos showing these techniques. I have a copy, which also has photos of a very young David Attenborough climbing on Tryfan.

You can see nailed boots hanging from the ceiling of the Dog and Gun in Keswick along with old Abraham photos.

In reply to gingerkate:


Spot on, they were tricky to place and remove. Modern wires are so much easier to put in. Especially if you have an 8ft reach like me and can place them above the crux move!

In reply to gingerkate:
And is that where 'the leader doesn't fall' came from... I had assumed it came from when ropes were a bit rubbish, but no gear at all would be a more crucial aspect!


Falling wasn't considered a desirable option when I started because of the long run outs and relatively poor protection.

I think the original expression goes back to the hemp rope days, when if the leader fell onto protection it would probably break.

In reply to Trangia:

Pegs and bolting are a bit different, wouldn't you say?

In reply to dave wearing:

Personally I don't like wires, except for very little ones which are probably not much use anyway, as they tend to lift out. Ordinary nuts, wedges or hexes are all you need really. Add to that spikes and other natural runners and most climbs could be adequately protected. If they couldn't they would be known as risky and this put the grade up... or there might be a few pitons, but everwhere.

It wasn't that different to now... the only quantam leap was when nylon ropes were invented, well before my time, and so a leader fall became safe. If anything I think holding a leader fall with a normal waste belay and gloves is easier and more gentle than with modern gadgets which seem to just block the rope and rely on it's elasticity to cushion the blow... Falling on a rope round the waist (without a harness) wasn't that painful, except when you bashed against the rock.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Agreed. Read your post in haste!

In reply to gingerkate:


What an interesting question (for old folk)I guess that's why you've got so many replies.I've not read them all but I don't think this one's been mentioned yet.
On very small holds EBs would start to creep almost immediately (at least with my footwork they did) but this became predictable.When I got my first Fires I was amazed at the increased friction but on the very small holds they could zip off suddenly when you weren't expecting it and this took a bit of getting used to.Consulting a very old climbing diary my grade didn't improve enormously with the Fires (E4 to E5) but I think I became a lot more consistent.
As for the clothes it's gone full circle. I started with flared jeans (so you couldn't really see where you placed your feet (that might explain a lot) and have recently bought a pair of Prana climbing jeans(also slightly flared, but I roll them up).I try not to think about the Ron Hills and lycra tights that happened in between.

In reply to gingerkate:

Ummm <hides head in shame>.... maybe

In reply to gingerkate: I'm pretty sure John has some EBs still in the gear box. They look like normal climbing shoes, but they're clumpy. Do you want them?

That must make him an 'older climber' then. <snigger>

In reply to gingerkate: the rope around you did give you some sense of being safer,even if you werent,the first nuts I used were ordinary machine nuts ,and then things started to move,to what we have today..we even used a plastic Moac,it was red,and not bad as I recall,but the first Moacs were the bees knees.

In reply to gingerkate:

I began in 1972. Clothes were a tartan shirt with woolly pully, hairy breeches and long woollen socks. Footwear was Hawkins' Walkin's or Green Flash plimsolls - I bought EB's after a year or so, but they weren't thought necessary for easier routes (look at all the photos in Classic Rock of routes which are now VS being done in big boots).

Cotton anorak (couldn't afford ventile) for the wind. When it pissed down, a knee-length, bright orange neoprene (non-breathable) cagoule over the top. Woolly hat and Dachsteins for cold weather.

Later, fibre pile (not fleece) jackets were the thing, although they immediately went bobbly. If you'd been to the Alps, this entitled you to wear a duvet jacket, but only in the pub.

Climbing gear: No 4 Viking hawser-laid rope tied around the waist with a bowline, 8 or 9 chocks on cord, and a few slings made out tape tied with a tape-knot. Oval steel krabs. Bugger-all else.

Run-outs, even on easy routes, were longer than would be acceptable these days at the grade, and the gear was harder to place (although once in, it was usually OK - it either fitted or it didn't, no half-measures like you sometimes get with modern nuts). Falling (even while seconding) was generally seen as something to be avoided, rather than a necessary means of advancement through the grades.

After a year or two I got a Whillans harness, but somehow it didn't make the idea of falling off any more attractive.

How did we survive? We were careful and our ambitions were modest: VS was considered dead 'ard and for me and most of my climbing companions wasn't even considered a possibility. I thought I was doing pretty well when I started leading Severes - but don't get me started on grade creep...

I've still got a pair of hardly-used EBs in the loft - there was a big scare that they were going out of production, and that the replacements were rubbish, so like a lot of others I rushed out and bought a new pair. Almost immediately, Fires came out and EBs were obsolete overnight. I didn't get sticky boots immediately, and when I tried them I thought they were good, but not magic (but then I was only climbing around HVD at the time)

In reply to gingerkate:

Hawkins' Scafell (I think) bendy hillwalking boots. We climbed up to VS in those, and did one VS in them.
Rock boots were the very unsticky, excruciatingly uncomfortable Hawkins Masters.
Needlecord breeches. Viyella shirt. Norwegian woollen sweater.
Compton helmet. (plus hemp waistline, a few slings and krabs, and precisely 4 very early nuts, including the famous MOAC.)

EBs came out quite a lot later, in 1971. They were a huge step forward, but nothing like as sticky as sticky boots. We were all stunned by the Fires when they first appeared (I think a lot later - v late 70s? Can't remember). I think every climb in the country became about one full grade easier then.

Yes, I have a lot of old gear in an old suitcase up in the attic somewhere. Haven't looked at it for ages.

In reply to gingerkate:

I should have said: I started climbing in 1966. Actually, my very first boots were school army 'corps' boots. Fantastically uncomfortable, and spectacular blister-creating devices. Before we got the Masters, my brother and I used our school running shoes which had strange, shallow rubber-studded soles.

There are some pictures of some of this stuff in my photo gallery.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Wonderful photos Gordon.

In reply to gingerkate:


Gordon I like the photo of the walk in to Harrison's Rocks. Those fir trees grew a lot bigger over the next couple of decades, then the whole lot were flattened in the Great Storm of 1987!

In reply to gingerkate: Aahhh, Climbing in the '80's, when sex was safe and climbing was dangerous ........and now ...

In reply to HC~F:
Surely John can't have any EBs?! Or are they like little baby bootee size EBs, from when he was a climbing toddler?

He'd only have been mid teens when Fires arrived wouldn't he?

Or perhaps he bought some EBs that were getting sold off cheap because Fires has arrived...

In reply to Howard J:

I'm loving this thing of how it turns out you all wore the same outfit: tartan shirt, woolly sweater, breeches and long socks :-D

So your chocks on a cord... were those ones made for the purpose?

In reply to gingerkate:

I started in EBs (once I got boots at all).

But my Dad (who took me out first) had the whoel museum collection, some of which I still have:
- drilled nuts
- a spiral-twist (hemp?) rope
- homemade crampons
- mild steel crabs
- an ice axe with a wooden handle about 4' long

Some of the nuts are amazing - bits of old engineering steel milled off and drilled. Some of them are *cylindrical*!

J

In reply to Moacs:

I still have the EBs

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Just as a matter of interest Gordon if you dont mind me asking, was your Dad a climber also?

The reason i ask is because it looks like he took a few of the photo's of you and your brother when you first started. (On your profile gallery)

In reply to Howard J and Dave Musgrove and others:

Just thought of something. What were women climbers wearing in the 60s and early 70s when you guys were wearing your breeches and tartan shirts? Did women by then wear pretty much the same sort of stuff as the blokes?

In reply to gingerkate: Just texted him - he said they are indeed EBs, but they were given to him so he didn't buy them new.

In reply to gingerkate: I like the old photos of women climbing in huge skirts!!

In reply to HC~F:
I know, I love them too. Have you seen John Gill's site? Sutty sent me a link to it. It's fantastic. Wonderful old photos.

In reply to gingerkate:
Peck Crackers- the worst nut in the world, did anyone actually feel safe above one of these?

In reply to HC~F: Here is some of the photo's on that site of ladies climbing:

http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/HistoricalClimbingImages9.html

In reply to gingerkate: Doing a retro picnic then ?

In reply to gingerkate:

When I started

no helmets
no harnesses (tied in with bowline)
no descending devices (round the body or double wrapped carabiners)
no belay devices (waist belays)
no pro (slings over/around rocks)
no figure of 8 knots
no rock shoes (but had lightweight boots with vibram soles)
had only heavy metal carabiners
dynamic ropes, but kind of white and elasticy
climbed in old clothes, but still do
beards mandatory (for men, optional for women)
beer guts mandatory (ditto)
no training (cheating)
no chalk
no gyms (best was buildings)
boulderering was a fun exercise for when you were drunk or it was raining too hard

unbelievable!

In reply to gingerkate: I've just realised i actually have a MOAC on my rack!
and some clog hexagons,
and some chouinard hexentrics.

I use roped hexes though.

In reply to wushu:

Did you read that bit, Dorothy Pilley talking in her book (1935) about Pat Kelly soloing?

"Solitary climbing was a specialty of Pat's. She enjoyed it for the peculiar heightened consciousness it gives, and she was so complete a mistress of the craft that with her even very difficult solitary climbs were perfectly justified."

How modern does that sound? It startled me, that use of the word 'justified'... using it exactly the same way it's used by climbers now.

The clothes have changed but something much more fundamental hasn't changed at all.

Aha, the definitive webpage for nuts!

http://www.needlesports.com/nutsmuseum/nutsstory.htm

In reply to gingerkate: To be honest though i dont think the mentality of climbing will change that much, except that now we have the indoor facilities, and some climbers will never move away from just that.

In reply to gingerkate: Well if you look from the clog hexagons photo, and the 2nd hexagon from the bottom is the one i have. God knows what routes it's been used on.

In reply to gingerkate: i've got an alpenstock!

In reply to all:


I wonder if any has ever used a certain type of nut, that were you would clip the quickdraw it has a red plastic like handle thing around it?

I have a few of these also you see.

In reply to gingerkate:
Being a bit of a Luddite as anew comer in 1979 my gear was old fashioned than as all i had to go by was an old copy of Blackshaw which fitted in my blazer pocket for school assemblies. i thought nails were the thing!. Went through several pairs of EBs whilst at Bangor and still have a "perfectly" good pair plus several pairs given to me by Howard Jeffs when I went on a Brenin course. when they wore out we just put them on the other foot. Rekon the Brighams in Sheffield that wasn't in the old days was Tankys as I seem to remember Brighams buying it then closing it whilst i worked for them in Capel in the early 90's. My most uptodate rock boots,which rarely get used are a pair of Boreal Ballets from 93. seem to remember taking the piss out of JB under the Grochan when he turned up witha pair of Fires which my flawed memory tells me he got form Moffat. I was still at college then so 83 to 86

In reply to all:

I notice the nut museum is still lacking some pieces.

In reply to wushu:

No, not at all. It really comes from the other side of my family, I think, in that my mother and grandfather had done a bit, but not much. But Dad was very adventurous, and did the Matterhorn with a guide in 1966 when we first went there - John and I weren't allowed to, because we were too young. Dad had scarcely climbed a mountain in his life, but had done loads of very strenuous stuff in war time as a paratrooper in the Tunisian mountains etc, and I think had had a bit of commando training of rock climbing too.


He was always just so incredibly supportive and encouraging - was in effect encouraging us every inch of the way to have dangerous adventures.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Ahh fair enough, On another note my friends Dad Clive Morrison, used to climb at Harrisons rocks about the time you were there just wondering if you knew him possibly?

Oh and is it still possible to purchase 'eyes to the hills'?

Thanks.

In reply to gingerkate:


I thought PAs and EBs were different?

I've still got a pair of EBs, and know someone with an almost unused pair. I skipped (couldn't afford) Fires - although I got a later pair to check them out - and was very jealous of a climbing partner at the time who had a pair.

Have Second Skins been mentioned yet?

In reply to wushu:

Umm. What did he look like? 'Morrison' is certainly ringing a v v vague bell.


Well, yes, on the used and second-hand market (look on Amazon used and second-hand - I'm sure there were a few there when I last looked. Or try Abebooks)

In reply to Kipper:

It's confusing. Yes and no. Check out the FRCC website, it gives the whole story which is that they were called PAs, then Pierre Allain left for another company, so PAs name was cahnegd to EB (after the manufacturer) and PA ended up meaning something else.

In reply to Kipper:

What are Second Skins? They sound like more lycra tights...

And on teh subject of lycra tights, I know they were 80s, but when in the 80s?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Erm about 5"10, blonde hair i think. Unfortunately i havent seen any photos from then so cant offer any more.

Ah ok then i'll have to get browsing, thankyou.

In reply to anyone:

Anyone ever climb in Hush Puppies then? Someone I used to climb with told me he and many others had a phase of using Hush Puppies in, I think, the late 60s/early 70s.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Don't forget the trusty Baby MOAC on wire! Also had some pretty useless (Peck?) nuts on wire - circular cross-section - bought second hand off Ed Drummond. They didn't exactly fit a wide range of cracks.

First boots - Masters.
First Harness - tied on round the waist with a bowline.

Ah, the good old days. Taught you not to fall off. Nowadays it seems to be a prerequisite.

In reply to RichS-Bristol:

Peck cracker wasn't it. I'm sure I had one once but no sign of it now. Certainly don't remember ever using it!

In reply to Steve Parker:

Well, Tom Proctor famously did. Including soloing Our Father at Stoney in them. Also, I had a direct account from someone who saw Whillans solo Right Unconquerable in them.

In reply to RichS-Bristol:

My climbing partner, Tim, when I got to Cardif university had several Pecks, but we never got on with them. Also, what were those very weird plastic things? He had one or two of those.

In reply to RichS-Bristol:


It's just a different sport, really, for most punters (though the people at the top are absolutely as bold as ever). But there are a lot of people just fooling about now, pretending really to be 'climbing'.

In reply to gingerkate:

In wonderful colours.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Ah, okay, a known thing then. Cheers.

In reply to Kipper:
And do you have a pair?

I made the mistake of googling troll/lycra/climbing, thinking I would happen across lots of classic photos of top 80s climbers, instead I ended up at some weird site called lycraman. But he did have some impressively mad troll tights, it has to be said.

In reply to gingerkate:

Am waaaay to young to be of any interest for the thread (makes good reading though), but can tell you the above mean 'rock boot' (climbing shoe) in German...

In reply to gingerkate: hey kate, although I'm 'older' I only started climbing four years ago, and I dont think the answer you want is "Red Chilli Spirits". But you might be interested in a book callled "The Coniston Tigers" by E Harry Griffin, about learning to climb in the Lakes in the 1930s. Apparently you had to go to a cobbler and ask him to hammer the nails into your walking boots, and buy extra tight plimsolls from Woolworths for any fancy technical stuff. Its a good read.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Oh that sounds good. Just checked on amazon and they have it, but might see if teh library can get it in.

Btw you are younger than me so you are not an older climber

In reply to Arjen:

Kletterschuhe were a very specific type of boot, I think more or less invented for climbing in the Dolomites, that were almost a cross between a climbing shoe and a lightweight climbing boot, in that they had very thin Vibram-like soles. I don't think many British climbers ever used them, though I am sure I remember being told they were very good.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


I used them a lot in the early 60s. Had two pairs as I wore out the first. They were good, much better than big boots, but not as good as my PAs when I graduated into them.

In reply to gingerkate:

Frank Elliott (who knew Puttrell, btw) told me a huge amount about the way they used to nail their nailed boots. Everyone had their personal way of doing it, their own pattern, it seems. It was a whole craft of its own. I've got that whole interview I did with him in about 1995 on tape.

In reply to gingerkate: I remember climbing below the Trinity Face (Snowdon) in the winter of 1963 and seeing a guy with a McInnes metal axe, which was pretty original for the time.
A lot of folks were still using ex-army gear at the time eg. Rucsacs, sleeping bags (like a white michelin man), etc. My first boots were nailed,but all army boots were. First decent boots were 'Lawries', where you knocked on the door of what looked like a private house in London (Kensington?), but inside revealed this magical world of Alpine climbing gear.
Klets were common at the time but were very poor for places like Harrisons. I recall having some Joe Brown Masters & PA's, the percursor to EB's. A compton helmet was the only real protection, a my hemp waistline + Tarbuck knot parted in my hands one day when I tested them! Moleskin breeches took ages to dry as did the cotton type anoraks (later replaced by rigid ventile). I also recall the hype & excitment when Tom Frost introduced climbing tapes! They replaced the knotted nylon hawser slings (or you could plait your own), which usually sported about half a dozen steel karabiners (you couldn't carry any more!) Marawa kidneys were awful to use. In about 1966 a guy showed me a metal chockstone to insert on the top pitch of the Cracks on Dinas Mot (the VS mantle). I immediately thought I could climb anything from now. Hawser rope was desperate to handle in the wet and more especially in the snow.
Belaying was either around the waist or over the shoulder (I climbed the other year with Bowdon Black (FA of Valkirie with Harding) on Clogwyn y Dysgyl (Gambit Climb) and he still used this method of belaying and when we abbed off from high up , because of rain, Bowdon did a full 50 mtr free ab ie. no sling or descender! They made them tough in those days!

In reply to Steve Parker:

>Anyone ever climb in Hush Puppies then?

I know Geoff Allinson? used them, did First Slip in them, not bad for E1 5c was it? several other people used them as well, the rubber must have suited climbing. Al Harris was reputed to have done Zukator in winklepickers, E4 6b, but he was a loon. Al Evans may confirm some of this.

One memorable day we watched Dave Cowan doing Diagonal in a gale, loons flapping round his feet, stopping him seeing his feet and moving up.

In reply to sutty:

They're what my Dad used to climb in. Never reached any great grades, but he stil raves about how good they were.

Me, I started climbing 20 years ago in my black school pumps, rather worryingly I reached a climbing plateau aged 12, while I was still wearing them!

In reply to sutty:

Yes, Sutty, I have very strong memories of that being reported in a very ancient Tremadoc guidebook i.e. about 5 or 6 editions ago.

In reply to Al Evans: Did you wear wicking underwear, or your trusty (crusty)thong?

In reply to sutty: I once watched Tony Wilmott climb First Slip in the pissing rain in hush puppies and loons, a most amazing peice of climbing. Tony was that good.

In reply to sutty:

Yeah, that's what I heard. Never even tried a pair on, so don't know anything about them. My first ever climb was somewhere on Snowdon in about 1975 with a pair of hired shoes from the Pen y pass youth hostel. What were they called? Gollies? Something like that.

In reply to Al Evans:

Glad you reminded me of that. Now you say so I can remember seeing Tony W climbing in hp on several occasions. Great climber and great character. He was just an out-and-out enthusiast.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Yes, what were Gollies? Lots of people had them at around that time.

In reply to gingerkate: Kate, I started in kletterschue , actually thats rubbish, I started in rubber soled boots. Moleskin trousers, never used nails.
Never bought Fires, moved straight from EB's to proper rock boots.
I still have EB's but they are Jack Streets, truly historical, did the first ascents of routes like Dead Banana Crack, Boat Pushers Wall etc.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Actually, I've still got a knackered pair, so I can tell you what they are, but not what they were.

In reply to gingerkate:

Back to the beginning. I started with a pair of nailed boots from Brighams in Conran Street. Wanted a pair of Scafells, lusted after them but they would have cost three months spending money from my wages nailed up with tricounis instead of two months for the ones I got. I had them for three years, re-nailed every year with clinkers round the heels. You would go out walking and see tracks of others nails, and know some people by the pattern and nail missing marks, handy if you were meeting them.
When in the RAF I went and got a hand made pair from Robert Lawries near Marble Arch, only cost about 25% more, with vibram soles, about 1958.

Sports afternoons then was a trip on the bike to Avon Gorge, 120ft of 5/8 nylon rope, two slings and krabs and issue gym shoes that were good enough to do Piton Route and Great Central Route in, along with solos of the Arete, Dawn Walk and the slabs on the RHS where Banner and others rode bikes up on ropes for fun.

In the transition from nails to vibrams, some people had the cleats cut away and nails put round the edge of the boots for climbing. The thinking was that the rubber sole would be easier on the feet for the road walking you had to do.

Klettershue, were originally felt soled and used in the dolomites pre war but we were at the end of that era, only a few pair were sold by old Ellis Brigham, then there was a pause till Bob started having rubber soled ones made. They were suede topped, had a boxed toe cap to protect delicate toes originally. When they got wet they stretched a lot, and sustained rain would have the cardboard insoles breaking up, sometimes you frigged a new one till you could replace them.

The rock and ice lads who went to Chamonix got the first PAs from Schnells, often swapping them for nylon ropes that were not available in France then. We got them eventually from Arvons in Bethesda, he imported them first I think.

Others have mentioned most of the other copies when EBs came out, some were good and some were crap, B4s were the worst we found. The black PA was excellent, but had a short life being poor quality canvas.

I still have my EBs from 1990, fires did not fit my feet after having my Achilles repaired, along with some scarpa cragrats that may get sticky rubber on sometime. My Mythos have only been worn twice due to foot problems again.

In reply to gingerkate:

Class thread:
must be said.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Tony was a great climber, probably underated, and did some amazing early repeats on grit, people thought he was just a SW climber, but he was more rounded than that. I did some early repeats on Peak Limestone with him, and also some early repeats in Wales, His lasting credential is probably Heart of The Sun apart from all of his stuff on Avon of course.

In reply to Al Evans:

Yup, and at Wintour's Leap, too, and in Norway.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I forgot the Norway stuff

In reply to sutty: got scaffels as well in the good companions catalogue ?
second hand of course
did most of the idwal slabs holly tree wall etc and milestone buttress and soapgut.
happy days we were immortal.
still got my lycra tights from god knows when don`t look as good in them now as I thoughti did then.
Rob

In reply to Al Evans:

Caught me just in time, Al, because most of these forums and threads have now become so childish and pathetic that I feel quite embarrassed to have spent any time here. Cheers (but email me any time).

In reply to Pipshusband:

The Scafells that Brighams sold were veltshoen? randed, a lip round the edge to carry nails, not vibrams. If I could get a pair now, nailed up for bad weather use I would die a happy man. I asked 'young Ellis' last year if they still had any nails and he said they were under the old shop in the cellar when it was demolished, over a £1000 worth at todays prices.

In reply to sutty:

I've lost a slipper, I wouldnt mind but its one of a new pair, how can you lose a slipper? This is true senility. I have scoured the flat, no sign? Its driving me mad.

In reply to gingerkate:


Not any more, sadly.


Worrying. http://www.lycraman.dk/gall/gallery.htm

I can't see an example of the pair I had - yellow with red and grey pinstripes.

In reply to gingerkate:

I do, I can see them as I type, hanging up in my workshop.

The soles are still in quite good nick really.

In reply to co1ps:


Ah rock hoppers, those were those yellow thinks as I recall.

Mr Littlejohn was involved in the development of those and he managed to persuade a great many of us in the club to buy them, he was working in Cardiff at the time, in Outdoor Action.

They were good for standing on minute edges, but that was all, the sole had the friction qualites of teflon. I well recall the last time I wore them, doing one of the 'Slips' at Tremadoc, I very nearly fell out of the grove due to lack of friction, I never wore them again.

In reply to sutty:

Oh my goodness, what a wonderful detail!

In reply to Sean Kelly:

So did the strands of hemp just tear apart then?

Detail like that about the breeches taking ages to dry is great.

In reply to srnet:
>I very nearly fell out of the grove due to lack of friction, I never wore them again.

So in those days no-one said 'just trust your feet' I assume?!

In reply to gingerkate:

that's pretty amazing, isn't it? i can't imagine that happening in the same way today. I'm wondering what you're up to with all this knowledge (an article?) but I'm enjoying this thread muchly - this and the 'how did you start climbing' threads are proper good 'essence of the best bits of UKC (for me anyway)' threads...

(this time *without* the typos!)

In reply to srnet: I seem to remember that the 'Rock Hoppers' could make grit feel like polished limestone.

PS Gingerkate...great thread. Interesting, fun, amusing, v different from the other puerile crap thats going on at UKC at the moment.

In reply to gingerkate: There was a rush of alternatives to EBs when they went crap (about 1980?) - I had a pair called calanques, which had incredibly soft soles which wore away in about 10 minutes - and came with a free spare set of soles. Still have the soles somewhere.

Then asolos became quite popular, sales obviously boosted by Billy Birkett's naming of his route on Dove Crag in exchange for some clobber - controversial at the time, iirc!

In reply to CJD:
I know, the contributions on this thread are really fascinating. And it's wonderful that by sharing them here they'll get archived for posterity.

I'm currently grinning madly about sutty's nail imprint comments...

In reply to gingerkate: Maybe you started climbing to late to remember following trails of fag ash & bits of fibre/fleece rather than chalk (somewhere there is a quote from Pat Littlejohn saying he'd never climbed on grit but he knew what it looked like, and that the crags even had dotted white lines on them, just like in the Paul Nunn guidebook - this was at the height of the 'chalk controversy' when he was firmly in the 'Cleanhand gang')

In reply to gingerkate:

Yes, this thread could be the one that has the history of gear and methods since the war, let's hope others expand on it. I will later as things come to mind, such as those moleskin breeches I put in the drying room soaked when I was laid up for two days and were still damp afterwards. They didn't wear out, fell to bits at the stitching eventually.

In reply to gingerkate:

Not when wearing Rockhoppers.

In reply to gingerkate: I remember belaying back in the late 60's early 70's we used a waist belay and gardening gloves and we used to get some lovely rope burns on the arms when holding a leader fall - first friction devices I think were figure of 8's can't remember exactly when they appeared or stich plates anybody know

In reply to sutty:
Sutty, could you tell me what date that was, that you got your first nailed boots?

In reply to Mike Hall:

I first came across a Schich Plate in Sweden in 1976 - the proud leader leap off with gay aplomb -


and hit the ground!

He hadn't explained to his lady belayer that she had to hold the dead end of the rope!


Chris

In reply to gingerkate:

Blimey, probably about 1953/4, we used them for walking too before vibrams. We used to spark them on the road to see the way on pitch black nights if the torch batteries had gone, so we could see the white line and walk along that till a car came along. Remember, the traffic was 1/40th of now so you may not get a car for half an hour at times.

In reply to gingerkate:

All of it rather frayed for preference. It was all part of the image. Helmets were actually fashionable.


Most of mine were shop-bought: hexes (symmetrical profile though) and unflared wedges, and a couple of Moac Originals (the best), plus one or two totally bizarre shapes which for obvious reasons never stood the test of time. But I had a couple of home-made hexes given to me by a friend once he could afford the proper stuff.

In reply to gingerkate:
>>

I remember we'd go from the hut to the pub, still in our hill gear, and steam in front of the fire until we were dry. Unfortunately we'd then get piss-wet through again on the walk back to the hut.

In reply to gingerkate:


They are PAs were red and Ebs (Super Grattons) were dark blue, I've had both. Pierre Alain invented the smooth soled rock shoe for Fontainebleau in 1935, and did one of the first 5c's at the Cuvier the same year.

In the 70s the terms were used to describe two somewhat different models of shoe - EBs were a little narrower than PAs, both came up above the ankle - and hurt!

In reply to gingerkate:

I'm trying to remember the boots with rubber flaps that I used in the Alps in the late 1960's - Frendo's?

In reply to JDal: Completely Fab

In reply to Bruce Hooker: I still have Jack Streets EB's as defined earlier in the thread.

In reply to sutty:

Sparking boots — wonderful.

Question for everybody:

According to wikipedia, (and backed up here by Bruce Hooker, I see), Pierre Allain invented the original PAs in 1935. But on the FRCC site it says this:


One of the most important technical innovations, which had a profound effect on the whole future of hard rock climbing, occurred in 1958 when a new form of footwear became generally available. The introduction of the special lightweight rock boot known as the P.A. (after Pierre Allain, one of the best French rock climbers) made as big an impact on British climbing standards as did the replacement of the nailed boot by the soft-soled rubber gym shoe, first used by Kelly about 1915. Whilst the gym shoe had excellent adhesive properties on purely friction holds, it had the great disadvantage that, being flexible and softsoled, it was extremely difficult to use on very small sharp holds. The P.A. was originally designed for use on the difficult sandstone boulders at Fontainebleau, the practice crag for Parisian climbers. It had a much more rigid sole than the gym shoe, thereby enabling the climber to stand on small sharp holds with a far greater degree of comfort and security. The few British climbers who, in the mid-1950's found themselves at Fontainebleau were so impressed by the revolutionary rock boots that they took some home to try out on the British crags.


I'm puzzling as to why PAs were revolutionary new footwear in the mid 50s if Allain invented them in 1935. Or did he originally make them just for himself? But that wouldn't make sense ... or not for 20 years ... because then everyone would've copied them. I see from the Pierre Allain wikipedia entry that the original ones weren't teh same as the 50s ones, but I still don't get why it took 20 years?

Shed some light on that if you can?

In reply to gingerkate: Pierre Allain made themselves for himself & a few friends at first, only later (I guess after the 2nd World War)were they produced comercially - I suspect that 1958 refers to either first available commercially or (more likely ?) first available in the UK

In reply to gingerkate:

If Pierre Allain invented them in 1935 he may well have kept it to himself and his circle. When I started climbing in the late 50s I hadn't heard of them (or at least didn't know about them), and klets were the "in" boot for delicate rock climbing until PAs started appearing on the British scene. I can't remember when I got my first ones, but it was probably round about 1963/4. EBs followed not long afterwards.

Don't forget that the war years 1939 -45 put a virtual stop to further advances in climbing equipment development (apart from rubber "commando" soles - see below). After the war and right through the 50s and early 60s there were, sofar as I recall, no British manufacturers of hardware. I was buying Stubai krabs on trips to Austria during the early 60s as I couldn't get them in the UK.

I think the rubber soles for climbing boots, originally known as "commando" soles were a wartime or immediate post war invention developed specially for commando forces to replace the noisy studded boots. They were found to have good grip qualities and adapted to climbing boots where they started to replace tricounis in the immediate post war years. The Army continued using studded boots (not to be confused with climbing nails) for some time for ceremonial purposes as they made a crisp noise when troops were marching and drilling even though they were lethally slippery!

Wasn't one of the first aluminium alloy krabs in the 60s an invention of PA as well? I am sure my early ones were marked "PA". I remember a mass recall when hairline cracks due to metal fatigue were discovered.

In reply to gingerkate:

I wasn't climbing in the 60s and early 70s, but my parents were, and yes, women wore pretty much the same as the blokes - breeches, tartan shirts, fairisle jumpers, woolly socks.

When I started climbing at the end of the 70s, I wore baggy jeans for a year or two, then tracksuits and lycra came in. I never went for the day-glo tights.

In reply to Trangia and Doug:
Of course, the war! How very dim of me.

In reply to Trangia: Rubber soles were invented by an Italian alpinist called something like Vitale Bramani (hence Vibram) in the late 30s - Louis Lachenal's Carnets du Vertige talks about him getting a couple of pairs of the soles which he made into boots for him & Lionel Terray for their ascent (the 3rd) of the Walker spur just after the war. Commando soles were a British copy

In reply to nell:

Thanks for that. I've seen some photos of women climbers from 20s and later, and it looks like what they're wearing then is very like what the blokes are wearing, just feminised a bit.

The day-glo tights, was that mainly a bloke thing? I seem to have seen lots of photos of men in silly tights over the years, but not of women. Unless it's just that the photos of the men are more memorable, because men in tights is just not a usual sight...

In reply to Chris Craggs:


Ah, the Sticht plate!

We made our own - cut up a piece of metal, drilled 2 slots and 2 small holes, and sanded/polished for weeks. If you were posh you had one with a spring

In reply to Doug:

I read the bit about how Terray and Lachenal "invented" a lighter weight rubber soled boot for their series of first ascents... they became obsessed with cutting down weight, in particular for their attempts on the N faces of the Grandes Jorasses and Eiger... Like all French climbers during and after the war they were very hard up and got boots with rubber soles (I think vibrams) made for them to save cash.. it's in their biographies.

Concerning Pierre Alain he is a bit underrated compared to the other famous ones, although his N face of the Dru was a pretty impressive route for the time, and one of the few who got involved in inventing and making equipment - some better than others, his ally crabs were fine, if not very strong, but his abseiling devices were a bit Heath Robinson (IMO) - in particular a sort of spring loaded hook that was supposed to allow the use of a single rope for abbing (still in the catalogues when I started).

Concerning PA footware, I thought it was just after the war but read that it was 1935 in a Font guide book this morning, I wasn't around at the time, despite being old! I thought they used "espadrilles" before the war, rope soled shoes, so perhaps as said the 50s date is when his shoes went into mass production and before he just made them for himself and friends... I keep meaning to try and find some books about the history of climbing in Fontainebleau...

As said, the war would have prevented a lot of developments of gear although Terray, Rebuffat and the others were climbing during the war, first in a sort of Petainist climbing organisation and then in the resistance... Terray's book is interesting on this, describing how they climbed some mountain carrying a machine gun to attack a German post... to his credit as a human being he describes how the business sickened him a bit.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Bruce Lachenal made the boots for him & Terray himself - I've not long finished reading Lachenal's 'autobiography' (actually written by Herzog using Lachenal's diaries) which explains in some detail how he -got hold of the soles from Italy & then made the boots for the Walker, Eiger, Badile, etc

In reply to gingerkate: Gingercake, just got a copy dvd of some old cine films from 60's and 70's.

One is aid climbing on Raven Tor 21/3/1972, they are climbing Mecca, but I noticed another rope on a route to the left of Mecca, was this one of you? I will try and get a screen grab of the climbers.

The other film is Llewed/Horned Crag Route early 60's, climbing with no gear and rope around waist, shoulder belaying etc...


Stu

In reply to gingerkate:

I think it was. The girls tended to wear black leggings (a bit like the ones coming back into fashion on the high street now). If you wanted to make a fashion statement you tended to do it on a big baggy t-shirt. Mind you, just being at a girl at the crag (especially if you were leading) was a statement in itself in the early 80s.

In reply to gingerkate: going back to what al said about wendy nuts, i wouldnt mind making my own from old bolts nuts etc any one do this? or is it stupidity nowadays?

In reply to nell:

I can believe it. I only climbed a few times in the 80s, (late 80s), but I don't think I saw another girl at all. I'm pretty sure I wore black leggings, but then again I think I wore black leggings most of the time in the 80s anyway

In reply to gingerkate: I started climbing in the early sixties at Swanage, Avon and Harrison's. I remember most of us wearing flat hats because Joe always seemed to have one on.

In reply to Doug:

You're certainly right, my memory isn't up to much. I read several biographies one after the other a few months ago and now they are all mixed up in my head. Terray, Rebuffat, Desmaison and Lachenal... incredible stories that make modern day hard men look like spoilt kids... Lachenal had a very rough deal though, and Herzog comes out really badly.

I also read a book by Bonatti which puts the Italian climbing world in a very bad light to over the K2 affair.

In reply to gingerkate:
(In reply to Sean Kelly)
So did the strands of hemp just tear apart then?
Detail like that about the breeches taking ages to dry is great.

I had about 6 or 7 strands wrapped around my waist and one day at Harrisons I just idly tugged at a strand and it simply parted in my hands! Needless to say I immediately went and purchased one of the new Troll belts that had just arrived in the shops. Too think that I had been climbing with that hemp line on Slape Direct on a few weeks earlier!
Another interesting detail is about helmets which were just starting to catch on in the middle 60's. The first one I saw was a friend using an old miners helmet made from glass-fibre, and there was a picture in the mags of Bonnington wearing one, on one of his early climbs. They quickly caught on for the Alps because of the stonefall danger.
What others were saying about how PAs started is also true of front-points, that were used by Kasparek on his Eiger ascent (1938) but weren't readily available in the shops until the early 60's when everybody still cut steps.
The Vibram boot thing I believe was down to the Americans in Italy during the war and people using the tyres from destroyed trucks as suitable footware. At least that was where Vitale B. got the idea for the tread on rubber climbing boots.

In reply to Sean Kelly: Hemp ropes were a pain in winter. Someone I know climbed the Aonach Eigach ridge in winter with two friends, then they had to walk down the road to the Clachaig Inn still roped up because the knots were too frozen to undo.

In reply to John2:

Presumably with 30ft of rigid rope separating them?

In reply to Trangia: Yes, the first alloy krabs were PA.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: Its interesting climbing with a hammer and pegs again here on new routes in Spain, its also interesting that its an anathema to people who have never done it, despite the fact that at least at the belays it is the only safe way?

In reply to Al Evans:

When I first started buying them, it took a long time for me to really trust them, because they felt so light! I still felt a lot safer with my half ton steel screw gates!!!

In reply to Trangia:

What doesn't help with PA crabs is that they have no hook on the gate so their strength is the same open or shut... no problems with catching on things though. I still have three that are just used for carrying gear and hooking paint tin to a ladder. When Tony Wilmott, who some of you here knew apparently, worked in the YHA shop near Charing Cross one of his favorite tricks was to demonstrate the weakness of a batch of faulty PA crabs by snapping off the gate with his fingers!

I still kept a few steel crabs for a while as they are good for weighting down slings on spikes to stop them lifting off.... they've been relegated to car towing now though.

In reply to Kipper:

I finally retired my circa 1980 sticht plate last summer.
Not being posh I never had a spring

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I wore them for years until the dreaded Ron Hills arrived....

In reply to John2:

Never used hemp ropes, but remember winter days not being able to undo the fishermans knot in the hemp waistline and going home, stripping off and getting in the bath with waistline on to undo it.

First rope was 80ft of 5/8 Viking nylon hawser laid rope, replaced a year later with 120ft of full weight as there was the risk of the thin one failing or cutting in a fall reported in Mountaincraft, the only mag available then. Not sure when we got twin ropes, as we called them then, maybe for the alps in 61, maybe we had a set before, sure we must have done as we were doing aid routes then, I was better at it than Whillans in the dolomites.

Stoves, here is a website about them. We used paraffin 1/2 pint ones, one pint ones and an Optimus petrol one. Also the small Svea petrol one in a built in windshield and case.

http://stovecollector.tripod.com/index.htm

In reply to TWINKLETOES:

Two older (male) friends were describing how, in the days before thermal longjohns, they used to improvise by wearing old woollen sweaters upside down (their legs in the armholes) under their trousers.

In reply to nell:

I still have a vision of one ex GF wearing her string vest, we used to wear old womens tights for winter climbing.

In reply to Al Evans:

Many I recall would'nt open under body weight! Not much use for aid and did'nt give you a good feeling about their rated stregnth.

Steve

In reply to nell:

Old pyjama bottoms were the usual solution

In reply to Postmanpat: Miles Gibson was very dismmisive of Ron Hills, He didn't realise what a revolution they were!

In reply to gingerkate:

I started climbing in 1969 and the only local source of climbing gear was the Scout Shop down Spring Bank, outdoor clothing of sorts was available from various ex army stores.

In the begining I have very little gear but remember if you climbed with the more sensible part of the gang the rope was a Viking number 4 and if you climbed with the more exciting people the rope was a double length of Viking number 2 half of which was dyed red, the Viking specs were quoted in inches and I think number 4 had a spec of 1 3/8ths and No 2 had a spec of 7/8ths in real terms I seem to remember the No 2 was like climbing on 7mm
perlon.

The only krabs locally available were "Hiatt" and two models were available a 10mm ( both Screw and Snap )which was bloody heavy and a 12mm Screwgate which must havee been eight inches long and weighed more than the rope.

Hiatt also had a stab at making hard steel pegs and were sold individually boxed, the peg manufactuing did not last I remember a problem with them shattering and a nationwide recall of the products.

Hiatt gear was bloody awful even for the late sixties and early seventies the krabs simply ripped fingers to shreds the gates had an action like Arkwrights till and the finish was as rough as millstone grit.

The one thing we can all thank Hiatt for was the first true gear review when I krabs were slated in a reiew in Mountain Life.

With regard to nuts , living close to the Hawker Sidley factory the climbers of Hull must have had some of the most expensive nuts in the world. One character from Brough would tell tales of the true cost of the nuts he would make, the nuts were initially drilled bits of circular or hexagonal bar but he soon progressed to copying spuds,moacs and crackers. The problem was each bit of metal in the aircraft factory had to be xrayed, labelled and tested, Mike would make wild claims that a nut had been made from a lump of alloy worth £50 which was real money given my first pair of rock boots had cost £5 19s 6d ( or £5.98 ) in 1970 on a trip to Wales

In reply to gingerkate:

Inherited Hawkins Masters boots in 1968 after initially starting in "Spanish fellwalking boots"
Blue jeans or climbing breeks
Holey woolly jumper
ex-army anorak (DDT impregnated)
Joe Brown helmet

Viking number 4 hawser-laid rope
Hemp waistband and Hiatt steel krab
Tubular tape slings and Hiatt screwgate and non-screw krabs

Drilled out industrial nuts
Home made hexs from drilled out alloy bar
Single hole alloy wedges on thin tape bought from George Fishers

EB's were later the business, then Fires of course which were good, but not as good as Boreal ballets. They were worth a grade.

In reply to NYork:

Graham West was a metalwork teacher and had his lads making pitons in class at one time.

I think it was Mike Hartley in the KMC who caused consternation when he produced something made with metal from the aircraft industry, the metal being on the secret list at the time.

In reply to Al Evans:

I'll echo that -- they were essential bits of new routeing kit in the Emirates, especially when you were often on 'iffy' ground, and occasionally had to bale out if things got silly. You couldn't buy gear over there in the late 1990's, so working in a 'metal bashing factory' meant I had a ready supply of home made mild steel angles.

In reply to sutty:

I think that was a differnt Mike.

I but I do remember a brief piece in a very early Rocksport describing a new range of pegs called "Hitens" which were to be mabe from a nickel/chromemoly alloy which was claimed to be better than chromemoly and the source of the metal was the aircraft industry. The range was to be limited to knife blades and "crack tacks" ( rurps?)and only available from limited outlets but I don't think they ever materialised.

Another myth /rumour regarding pegs was with regard to those stainless steel pegs marketed by Peck, they might best be described as channels with a circular cross section. The story was that the source of the metal was the BAC Concord project.

In reply to gingerkate: Someone earlier on mentioned Peck Crackers, small nurled pieces of circular bar threaded with 6mm nylon cord, being rubbish.

I'm living testimony to the fact that they were extremely useful pieces of kit in 1970 as one saved my life on a route (almost appropriately) called Funeral Way on Lower Falcon crag in Borrowdale. I only had two runners on the top pitch, the cracker about 20ft above the belayer and a sling round a dead tree about 20feet higher. Though it was raining at the time the steeper rock was dry but as I stepped out onto the mossy upper slab, looking for a belay I just slid off into space. The dead tree broke and I fell about 80ft but the Peck Cracker held. My belayer suffered pretty serious rope burns (waist belay of course in those days) but apart from a bit of bruising and slight concusion I was uninjured. Just one of my several close shaves over the last 43 years!

Dave

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

Ouch! Belaying was pretty hazardous for belayers back then too, wasn't it. What was that story about (I think) Colin Kirkus's belayer suffering serious rope burns on Cloggy or somewhere after holding a big fall, then having carbolic soap applied to them with a scrubbing brush at the infamous Bangor Hospital? Ouch again!!!

In reply to gingerkate:
i had a peck cracker on wire. It did work but then so did carrying pebbles from the strem below.

In reply to gingerkate:
Well Kate, you've really pushed on a button with this thread - so much I'd forgotten about, there's almost a book's worth. Do you have much in the way of the old magazines : early 'Crags' for example? (I think the first issue was a huge single sheet folded several times - can anyone conform that?). I ask 'cos their adverts show what was available.

In reply to IbexJim:

It's great isn't it? I'm really glad UKC archives all this stuff, it means that any memories written down here are saved for posterity. I love that bit sutty put about seeing their way home along the road by teh sparks from their boots. I don't believe anyone who hadn't lived through that moment would ever have guessed about that. Or about walking down from the mountains with your rope still on because the cold wet knots wouldn't undo. And I knew hemp wasn't great, but the thought of it tearing apart in your hands!

I haven't any old copies of Crags, though I've seen some of their sexy ads that Al... well I think it was Al... posted up here, a while back.

In reply to gingerkate:
I must have another look - I think that would be 60's sexy rather than 00's sexy though! We are trying to move, so my wife has (correctly) made me throw away most of the old mags (I took them to Mile End) but I still have 9/10 of the first Mountains and a number of early Crags & Rocksports - one includes a photo of a very 'ard looking Al E !

In reply to gingerkate:

I first did any climbing in our PE lessons at school, in about 1975. We had a big board in the sports hall built of plywood, with metal holds in the shape of bars which could be lifted out and moved to another position.

We were told to wear long trousers and long sleeved shirts with collars, so that we didn't get rope burns when abseiling or belaying.

We didn't have harnesses, and wore black elasticated plimsols. I can't remember what sort of ropes we used there, but we were taught to coil them around our knees as we sat cross legged, using mountaineers coils (round and round, rather than a butterfly coil that most people use today).

Later on, we started using clings as harnesses, by putting them around our waists, and pulling a loop through our legs, and then clipping them together with a carabiner.

We used body belays, and classic abseils.

Later on in life, I started climbing for real, and borrowed a pair of EBs. They were quite stiff, with rigid soles... but not having worn anything else, I thought they were fine. But when I did finally get a pair of sticky rubber boots, I REALLY noticed the difference!

I've also belayed with a bit of hemp rope, and it was most disconcerting when weight was put onto it, creaking and making all sorts of noises! I thought it was going to snap in two!!!

In reply to gingerkate:


check this excellent gallery for some pertinent images

http://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/author.html?id=39649

In reply to lithos:
Thank you, what a great gallery, I've now got it bookmarked

Reply from Boreal... not very enlightening I'm afraid... here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=243176&new=3575655#3575655

In reply to sutty: Seattle had a bunch of climbers in the 60s and 70s with titanium hardware made from the Boeing SST project. Probably the most expensive gear ever.

In reply to gingerkate:

After using army boots and plimsoles my first choice of climbing shoes were the grey Klets or the green Febs. Never new what FEB stood for but they went well with my homemade cordouroy (sp) breeches. Some routes were graded "for rubbers".

The climbing rope was hemp and slings were made from this by splicing the ends together (neater than a knot). Some had a large knot put in them for use a runner.

I don't remember the falls being that painful but you had to take them if you were doing the "extreme's" or the "exceptionally severe's". More pain was to be had by doing the "classic abseil" which is where the thick wooly jumpers and arse patches come into play.

The climbing shop in Sheffield that someone mentioned was Jackson & War's. Got my first Hawkin's Masters and Peter Storm cagoule from there. Or was that Harbin's in Capel?

In reply to Baz47:

FEB was something to do with F Ellis Brigham, the founder of the firm that made them, Bob Brigham's father.

It was not Harbins, it was Arvons, or maybe Arfons, though it was Arvons in the mags of the time. who would have thought that a small shop in Bethesda was the main importer of PAs at the start?

In reply to gingerkate:

Klettershues were a very ligh climbing boot, usually in suede, but they still had a cleated vibram sole

Masters were the UK version of Pierre Allain's PA's, not as good but they did have the advantage of being harder wearing, they were suede rather than canvas. There was also another popular boot called RD's, these were even harder wearing but heavier.

The nuts were just ordinary engineering nuts, available at ironmongers, if you were lucky you had facilities to ream the threads out which otherwise would snag the rope. I was lucky, I worked in an engineering lab so I had the facilities and an unlimited supply of free nuts.
We experimented with reaming the bigger ones out even further to make them lighter, but obviously you could only do that with the bigger ones because of reducing strength.
Several people discovered duralumin about this time and the first customised nuts appeared (still only on rope). As I worked in an engineering lab I was well placed to produce these, I even had a specially sized round one that fitted the shothole on Boat Pushers Wall exactly.
Al

In reply to Al Evans: And Sutty is quite right the Kletts I used were FEB's. There were even some in vogue that were rope soled though, very good in the wet.

In reply to Al Evans:

I know someone who still has a pair of RDs, in fair condition and used for his trips to the VFs in the Dolomites.

In reply to Al Evans:


I suppose they've dried up nowadays?

In reply to Bruce Hooker: Yes, in both understandings of the word. But no, you can still get Whitworth and BSF nuts from any ironmongers.
If anybody wants to try what it was like its easily done, just thread about three differently sized nuts on each sling, we used to keep the slings long so you could use them as 'slings' too. Also because we didnt have quick draws.
To get the real experience of course you need to ditch your harness and tie on round your waist,and do a waist belay. Go to Woolies and get some pumps if you only want to do E1/2, if you could get hold of some non sticky proper rock boots you could try some of the E4's that were put up like this.

In reply to Al Evans:

....and whilst you're at the ironmongers buying the Whitworth nuts, remember to ask for a pair of gardening gloves, de rigeur for the 1970's belaying experience.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: We even used to find some lying around on the Snowdon Railway line, and if you glimpsed one lying loose anywhere great risks were taken to get to them. Of course having a ready supply I didnt need to do this.

In reply to Al Evans:

I remember having a short sling with the two smallest clog spuds and a small hexagonal nut, it was not a problem at the time but I sile when I remember the sling was 5mm

In reply to NYork:

I meant to say "SMILE"

In reply to Chris Shorter:

Hi Chris, do you remember Reg from your early days with EYMC, he used to belay in a pair of motorcycle gauntlets that went half way up his forearm

In reply to NYork: I always thought 5mm was adequate until I saw Tom Proctor break one with his bare hands, he had to tie a special knot into it, but still!!!!

In reply to NYork:

Yes, I do remember Reg. A lovely old guy or at least he seemed old to me at 17. I guess he's not still alive? Did he have an illustrative past?

In reply to Al Evans:

My dad had a scrap yard so nuts were no problem!

I also made some 8 inch "pitons" from T section aluminium to do one of Tony Wilmott's routes at Avon which had a section where you just had to bang them straight into the cheesy yellow rock. I even payed for a 4 inch wide bong though as my own attempts at making one from ally plate didn't convince me over much.

In reply to Al Evans:

Hi Al,

"Wristgrips and Gateposts" might be a suitable title of a article describing the strength and endurance of the Hydraulic Man for the 50th anniversary issue of Crags magazine

In reply to Chris Shorter:

I don't know Chris, I remember him and Pete ? been supportive of the younger climbers regarding lifts etc.

Do you remember Regs trip to Norway, he went with Tony (his son in law)and they bought the entire stock of pegs from the ScoutShop

In reply to gingerkate:

Check this web page out. Text and photo's of old kit in use in Australia.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://tecais2.tripod.com/wb66_08....

I haven't been able to find a photo of a pair of Klets

Regards,

Steve

In reply to NYork: Sorry, 'gateposts' its evading me at the moment?

In reply to Al Evans: Actually if you look closely there is a sneaky prototype wire there too.

In reply to Al Evans: Gateposts?

In reply to Al Evans:

You should write all this up in a book with pictures and drawings.

In reply to NYork:

That would probably be Pete Woodall, although there was also Pete Davies.

The entire stock of pegs from the Scout Shop wouldn't have got them very far! I have a vague recollection of Tony. I think he came out with John and me once; I think he spent most of the day hanging on the rope.