UKC

So here I am again, on that yearly pilgrimage toward the magical E5 grade. This years journey through the grades has been somewhat inspired by the excellent new North Wakes Rock and Sunday's atritional ascent of Vulcan at tremadog.

As I'm currently focused on the class E4's what would UKC readership recommend.

So, straight in at no 1

1. Vulcan (of course it's E4)
2. Cithaeron - Lundy
3. The Skull - Cryn Las
4. Star Wars - Pembroke
5. Electric Blue - Rhoscolyn
6. Fay - Sharpnose
7. Graduation Ceremony - Gogarth Main Cliff
8. Sacred Idol - Craig Fach, Pass.
9. Slender Loris - Malham
10. Moonwalk - Curber

Do our sea cliffs really have half of the top 10?

I'm sure Top Gear and Lost Horizons should figure but I haven't done them.

Thoughts.

In reply to richard kirby: sure there a few in Scotland...

In reply to richard kirby:

There's Mother Africa/ War of The Worlds reckoned to be the best at Swanage, and Goi Ashmore reckoned Ogmore had three or four of the best E4s in the country (not sure if he meant Wales or the UK).

In reply to andymoin:

Such as The Spire, and something on Stac Pollaidh.

In reply to richard kirby:

Star Wars is E3.

Top gear is very good, but not top 10. Likewise Lost Horizons.

Brave New World, has to be in there. One of the best of ALL grades!
Minotaur? (IS E4!)
Flakey Wall (High Tor)?
Bitter Oasis?
Dont know much about scotland unfortunately, but something on the Dubh Loch?
Resurrection?

In reply to richard kirby:

I think you could easily have a totally different list

Resurection (Cromlech)
Flaky Wall (High Tor)
Android (Chapel Head)
Wings of Unreason (Roaches)
Astoroth/Snowdrop (Crafnant)
Bloody Sunday (Huntsmans)
Cream (Tremadog)
Great Wall (Cloggy)
Poetry Pink (Slate)
Trail of Tears (Roscolyn)

And that excludes lakes and scotland because I haven't really done anything there. (And I know that Poetry Pink is probably E5, Bloody Sunday E3 and Electric Blue is better than Trail of Tears but don't like facts to get in the way of a good argument!)

In reply to GDes:

The obvious Dubh Loch choice is given E5 in the new select guide. Forgot Freak Out (Glencoe) though.

In reply to ellis: what about the new testament on the slime wall? thats suposed to be mega isnt it? if its comparable to Shibboleth it must be one of the best.

Bloody sunday is E3. Just another day/scorched earth is good, but if one from the leap it has to be minotaur.

Forgot wings of unreason, superb, has to be a contender.

And I've changed my mind, maybe lost horizons is in there.

In reply to richard kirby:

1) Hyndsight
2) Th Skull
3) The Axe
4) Trail of Tears
5) Ten Years After
6) Nagazaki Groove
7) Freak Out
8) Central Wall (Kilnsey)
9) Resurrection
10)Something in Geln Clova whose name escapes me

In reply to richard kirby:
Don't miss Wall of the Worlds at Swanage, top route

In reply to richard kirby: Another vote for Kilnsey's Central Wall. (Havn't done it but) Calvary must be a contender. The Stoney E4's are great too....

In reply to richard kirby:
All getting me psyched, despite the rain. This is just what I need a this point of the year.

A Few Dollars More on Hoy, one of my best all round climbing experiences in UK, given E3 but dirty and quite full on for the grade!

Spellbinder at Ogmore (only seconded) the other week but brilliant. Why does everyone drive past this crag?

Wings of Unreason and Moonwalk are good but in my mind not as memorable as say Cithaeron and the above. You'll have to work very hard to persuade me that sea cliff or mountain crag routes shouldn't head the list.

Still to do then this summer... Skull, Great Wall, Axe, Freakout, Giant
brilliant

In reply to GDes:
Is it!!

This is necky-ish at the bottom, and a hard move to O/S at the top. E5 in my book and THE book

Forgot about this, is it better than Central Wall or Slender Loris? Overshadowed by Supersonic I reckon.


Mmm, not awesome tho'



You have a point.

In reply to richard kirby:

you forgot The Axe

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Astoroth/Snowdrop sounds interesting. You done them Ian.

Poetry seems to have settled at E5.

Now Wings of Unreason, there's a grade debate! ....and I'm not convinced on the quality...it's just B.prob to break to break to top.

In reply to richard kirby:
Yes - done quite a lot of stuff up there and really rate it.
Phoneix is very good as well. Actually could do Connies Crack into Snowdrop to give a harder E4. Snowdrop right hand is excellant as well at E4 6a - gave me a bit of shock when I started off thinking I was doing the finish of Astoroth (5a) after seconding mate on on Connies Crack. Also the Web on the right hand side (E3) is good with a feeling of exposure and adventure. With an ab set up from the top its a good place to get a lot done in a day in the E3/E4 range.

I'd probably agree but the Rainbow is such a great bit of feature...


I'll have to disagree there it's a beautiful piece of rock with great moves and the jump to the top is pretty unique.

In reply to richard kirby:

E3 so doesn't count!

Don't know this one

Yep, that should be in.

Only E3

Not done it so can't comment.

Felt harder than any E4 I've done - given E5 at the time, suspect it's a borderline case.

Good but is it that good? I'd put Pagan above this.

Now you are joking!

Possible, oh go on.

Thought Calvary was better.

So in no particular order:

1. Calvary - Stanage
2. The Skull - Cyrn Las
3. Fay - Lower Sharpnose
4. Pagan - Gogarth, Red Wall
5. Resurrection - Cromlech
6. Mortlock's Arete - Chee Tor
7. Lost Horizons - East Buttress
8. Fallen Angel - Pavey Ark
9. Slender Loris - Malham
10. Grand Alliance - Black Crag

I know there should be stuff from Scotland in there but the Scottish E4s that I've done are now E5 or E3 In fact that goes for a lot of the E4s I done south of the border as well. Also nothing from Fairhead.

boB

In reply to Bob:
so can't comment.
Fay is tough for an E4 leader but apparently a bit of a soft touch for a fit E5 leader. This was the concensus following a discussion on the old uk.rec.climbing newsgroup. I'd give it E5.

In reply to Mark Kemball: Fay is easy for E4 i'd say, every route i've done on that wall felt softly graded, not a hard move on the whole thing. Bottom end E4 5c IMHO.
Fay is easier then Arms Race at Avon, another infamous soft touch E4 5c.

In reply to Bob:


You're joking!! Perhaps 20 years ago. Worn out placements and loose flake.

On reflection, High Noon , Big Greeny or Grand Illusion for token grit route.



mm, got to be done.


You may have a point with Sacred Idol, a suitable replacement....but the rock at that crag is awesome.


That good!!??...does it ever get totally dry...always seems to have water running out of it.


Pretty average from what I remember, altho it was 15+ years ago

R

In reply to ally smith:

Well I was solid at E4 when I did it (Fay) and got spanked and ended up seconding it and it still felt harder than E4s on the lead!

boB

In reply to richard kirby:

Not done many grit E4s, but that was the best climbing that I did on any of them. Curiously it probably was 20 years ago! Possibly High Noon as a replacement. Grand Illusion - now that is a joke.

I know what you mean about the rock on Craig Fach (0r Geifr) and Sacred Idol is good climbing but just isn't in the same league as Resurrection.

Fallen Angel is just so *different* from most E4s - you really have to think about it and work at it. It was probably dry until the recent rain.

boB

In reply to richard kirby:

Graduation Ceremony is nothing special. I wouldn't spring to mind as the best E4 at Gogarth, that's for sure. Ormuzd is better and far more memorable.

The Prozac link on the Lewis sea cliffs is the best E4 I've done, by a fair margin. In fact it rates comfortably with any route I've done in the world.

I think Wings of Unreason deserves a place, immaculate rock, just enough holds, wonderful view and really summarizes the intensity of quality you get on grit.

In reply to Adam L:
I think the we've moved to excluding Scotland since most people don't seem to have done enough up there to comment - I know I haven't.


Agree completely, even though I'm not in general a huge fan of the grit. I'd add that its on one of the most elegent pieces of gritstone there is.

In reply to ally smith: fay would feel E5 if you've been climbing slabs for the previous months and E3 if you've been sport climbing in france/spain for a month before getting on it... i didnt think it was 'soft' for E4 but in the lower half of the grade. but i only ever climb softouches and i'd fallen off an e3 the week before so what do i know!

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Naah, I'll back him upon Prozac Link. After two quality pitchs you pack more gear in than the belay and run it out on perfect rock, with out enough rope to lower your fall stricken self into a raging sea. What more do you want from a route?

In reply to Adam L:

...and probably E5. There was a party on it the other weekend...with lots of cam's above size 4. Is that necessary or just comfortable?
I vaguely remember a very impressive photo of this route on here (searched with no result). What guide, and score on getting there. Quite fancy a trip. Is there enough stuff for a week up to E5?
...perhaps for its position/aspect.

In reply to ally smith:

Fay is really a stamina route, if you have plenty of stamina, then none of the moves are technically that hard. If you do not have the stamina, the final section with totally pumped forearms is desperate. I suspect you come into the former category, I'm in the latter. When I first tried to lead Fay (having seconded it many years previously), I reached the finishing niche and my arms were so gone that my fingers uncurled. I went back a couple of years later aftr some serious (for me) stamina training and only just got it. A number of people have suggested that it should go back up to E5, I'm interested in opinions!

In reply to Mark Kemball:

I fully expect to be able to do this route, and I think there should be more E5s in the world that I can do, so I'm all for upgrading.

In reply to ally smith:

I think your losing perspective on grades and may invite some failures onto the route. It's a little bold to half height, a stamina plod, and has a pumpy finish. Compare it to Wings of Unreason which is soft. I wouldn't argue with E5.

Pacemaker is solid at E5 as well. I think if your fit then these routes do feel ok. The moves aren't hard but they are pretty sustained.

In reply to Mark Kemball: Does the grade of Fay also depend on the state of the pegs? Or is it graded assuming that the pegs are poor or non-existent nowadays?

Last time I did it (2001?), I thought the pegs were rubbish, so spent time fiddling in lots of wires, then hanging on them 'cause I was pumped...

In reply to Andy2: Fay would be about f6b+ on bolts. Did it last year and the pegs looked fine compared to many Avon specimens. Good RP5 next to one of them. The bottom "bold" bit is about HVS 4c and shouldn't represent an issue. This would only be E5 if everything in that area got knocked up a grade also. I suggest that many of the arguments for an upgrade are coming from people that Fay was their only career E5 on-sight and don't want to lose the ego massaging tick.


sPaz, is that "E3" the one in the FoD?

ps, Right Wall is harder than Fay, but only E4 5c too.

In reply to richard kirby:

Well - the Skull's harder than Slender Loris and Star Wars - they're the ones I've done. Star Wars best pitch. skull best route but all good

In reply to richard kirby:

One Camalot 4 and a friend 4 will do you fine. I'm not convinced its E5, just that there aren't many roof chimneys to train on. Worth bearing in mind its perhaps easier to lead than second the roof. The quality rating includes a belay in the hidden cave with the quartz artwork (some say its obscene) on the wall.


Its in the SMC Skye and the Hebrides, though a bit out of date now, think there may be a more up to date selective guide. There is enough to do for several years up to E5, if it wasn't so remote it'd be in the top 3 sea cliff destinations in the UK, in fact I'd say it still is. Ferry from Uig, Skye to Tarbert or Ullapool to Stornaway, then drive across Lewis for an hour or so. If you get good weather make sure you go to Strone too.

In reply to richard kirby:

Hmmm, this is turning into a pretty interesting topic. I do like it when it turns into a back-and-forth yes/no debate with people who actually know their stuff.

I'm almost entirely a spectactor, but the few routes I know I can make the following "corrections" (some done already):

Star Wars - definitely E3 (but brilliant)

Poetry Pink - definitely E4 (but brilliant, not that hard E4 surely)

Ten Years After - more E3 than Malice In Wonderland (but both brilliant)

Big Greeny - E3 5c, schoolboy error shurely!

Wings Of Unreason - shouldn't be anywhere near this list. Okay it's a great bit of rock but it's a naff gimmick route that lacks anything approaching consistent quality. Not even the best E4 on the Skyline.

Can't argue with Res and PP on the list.

Prozac Link does look fantastic.

*cough* carry on lads...

In reply to Fiend: i still think poetry pink is e5.. it's harder but safer than nosferatu at burbage and a lot harder than stuff like fay.

In reply to abarro81:

I think it's technically hard....someone once suggested E4 6b which is more like it than E5 6a. IMO, for the tech grade. For the adj grade, the numbers don't really add up: 6a/b move next to bolts (E2?), easy 5c move with big but okay fall (E4, just), 6a move next to bolt (E2?), 5c up crack (E2/3), good rests in between all of those....the maths says E4 to me.

LOL, anyone would think I like a grade debate .

In reply to ally smith:


You really are trolling now. Right wall is definative E5. Ie the original article way back in Mountain in the 70s proposing and defining the E grade system gave Right Wall as one of the routes to define the E5 grade.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Suggestions of E4 and 5c have knocked about since I started climbing the 80's. It is a route that favours those with modern sport climbing fitness.

FWIW I felt the route finding lowdown, general intimidation and the runout above the girdle nudged it into E5 territory.

In reply to richard kirby:

Seems to me E4 is the Somme of UK grades; continually trampled over by the lebensraum-seeking hard E3s and en-retraite soft E5s. I reckon most E4s I have done in my (admittedly brief) UK trad climbing career have changed grade at some point before or since. Caveat in place, my list in no particular order:

Fay, Sharpnose
Darkinbad, Pentire
West Face, Great Zawn
Star Wars, Bosherton
Bloody Sunday, Huntsmans
Peryl, Avon
Resurrection, Cromlech
Great Wall, Cloggy
Central Wall, Kilnsey
Moonwalk, Curbar

In reply to richard kirby: Go along with
Fay
and The Skull
Wall of the Worlds?
The Cad
Great Wall
the Cumbrian
Edge Lane
Deja Vu
The Moon

Not sure if they are all E4, but its a good tick list

In reply to Simon Lee:

Sounds a pretty good summary to me. And it is a noticebly bigger lead than Ressurection - for trad grades to be of any use RW needs to be a different grade to Res, so either RW is E5 or Res is E3.

In reply to richard kirby: Il Duce anyone? Not that I've been on it.

In reply to John2: lets do it John

In reply to Tyler:

Figures. mmmm, perhaps this should have an honerary postion due to the amount of times I have heard you eulagise it. Its in NWR too


Covered ground


Couldn't comment, but it looks an arse to get to.


yeh or E.Blue


Forgot about this, and it is very good...not good enuff tho'


Ah, a multi pitch route on an overgrown crag with 10ft of good climbing. You can do better than this.


Not done, heard its good.


This or S.Loris.


Agreed.


Lazy...get it filled.

In reply to Al Evans:
Now E6
Now E5
Now E5
Always been E3

Deja Vu looks awesome...I presume the Great Zawn rather than Kilnsey one.

In reply to richard kirby: Its awsome
http://www.dangeroussite.com/images/gallery/Brians/dejavu.JPG

In reply to Al Evans:

As I think I have mentioned to you before, a few years back, that photo is radically tilted. I can confirm that with more authority now, having traversed over from Green Cormorant Face to take a look at Deja Vu fairly recently.

In reply to John2:

Il Duce is a weird route. It belongs somewhere at the intersection of conventionally-analysable climbs and full-blown Fowleresque adventure. Worthwhile though.

Can someone explain to me why Bloody Sunday felt nails and Resurrection about E2. (I had a shocker on BS )
Everyone goes on about BS beeing low in the grade, possibly E3 -no fecking way!!!

The Ent

In reply to Enty:

A mystery to me too. The start of BS seemed scary and insecure fifteen years ago - I hate to think what it is like now.

In reply to tobyfk: I have a sneaky (and speculative) suspicion that most people, when recalling Bloody Sunday, focus on the upper crux cross-through move, which alone would probably make the route merit E3. Focussing on that part gives the bottom bit less valency, unfairly so, and so a skeweded impression of the route overall.
Hard for me to comment objectively as it was my first Pembroke route of that grade.

In reply to richard kirby:

I thought there are 2 different sequences for the cumbrian. one E4 the other E5.

Top Gear looks one of the best in the lakes.

In reply to Enty:

all comes down to how greasy BS it is

This thread is interesting; there seem to be 3 criteria for nest E4

best E4 climbing
best route for ambience/position that happens to be E4
best soft touch ego-boost

In reply to kevin stephens:

I think you have a fair point. But i ploughed through the first bit from the beach no problem but couldn't make head nor tail of the crux. I had 3 belayers it took me so long.

The Ent

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Only the one grade though.

I've not done it but have heard very good things about Antiworlds on Lundy. Maybe this should be in the list?.....it gets E4, but I'd guess its a contender for E5 if a new guide comes our way.

In reply to richard kirby:

Star Wars; would be a VERY easy E4!
Minotaur; It's so much easier than any other E5 around. The "necky" bit (which isnt that necky) is about 5a climbing, and the hard move at the top has a no hands rest and about 4 bomber bits of gear right below it.

I'd say bitter oasis is pretty awesoem!

Flakey wall is better than central wall at kilnsey if thats the one you're talkign about. Havent doen slender loris.

In reply to GDes:

Yeh, soft E5...but the grade must start somewhere. Same story as B.S.(E3/E4 debate) If the bottom is greasy it feels go-ey, and the boulder problem finish is hard to O/S

To say which is best...tough call, Yorkshire Limestone or Peak.....mmmm, Yorkshire - no contest.

In reply to richard kirby:


In general I'd agree but Flakey Wall is better than Central Wall. Best inland limestone E4? For me Flakey Wall (but as you say somewhat overshadowed by Supersonic), Apocalypse (expecially in one pitch), Slender Loris or Android. Not sure which is the best but all are better than Central Wall imo.

In reply to richard kirby:
This debate clearly needs more Scottish input.
Here are a few candidates that spring immediately to mind (not all of which I've done!):

The Prozac Link, Lewis - apparently definitively the best E4 in the country....
Voyage of the Beagle, Dubh Loch - apparently definitively the best mountain E4 in the country....
Freak Out, Glencoe.
Titan's Wall, Ben Nevis.
Sugar Cane Country, Pabbay - immaculate and hard to better for a single pitch.
The Spire, Shelter Stone Crag
Cupid's Bow, Shelter Stone Crag - though probably E5 since the peg got snapped(?)
Magic, Sron Na Ciche, Cuillins

Someone mentioned "something" in Clen Clova - Whoremistress and Empire of the Sun are both outstanding routes, but surely not in the league of the above!

In reply to richard kirby: I wish I could contribute something useful to this thread, but I'm not good enough (yet) Still, lots of inspiring routes to dream about!

In reply to richard kirby:

War Of The Worlds
Mother Africa (Maybe E5 now?)
Star Wars
Resurection
Bloody Sunday
Fay
Lost Horizons

In reply to richard kirby:

I'd go for (in no particular order):

tumble (maybe the best though?)
nectar (as 1 pitch)
flaky wall
star wars
resurrection
grand alliance
ride the wild surf
bloody sunday
moonwalk
fallen angel

In reply to richard kirby: Another vote for Central Wall at Kilnsey (if you go below the peg and not above it...). How's about Flashdance on the slate, Gates of Perception at Anglezake (may be woth E5 though), and Downhill Racer?

Andy F

In reply to Toby Dunn:

I thought Moonwalk was very average, worth one star if that.

Downhill Racer is definitely a contender, though being chipped it perhaps should be disqualified?

Flaky Wall is the best one at High Tor I think, which probably makes it automatically the best at Peak Lime. Whether its world class I'm not sure.

In reply to Adam L:& Andy Farnell

Groundswell of opinion would disagree on Moonwalk.

Your 'avin a laugh on Downhill Racer boys!!...there's loads of slabby E4's far better.

I reckon grit E4's is another thread. At the end of the day I don't think any grit E4 would make it into this list....there's just too much better on sea cliffs and Mountain crags.

In reply to ally smith:

It's was my 4th E4 onsight Sunday before last, so I haven't much to compare it with but although it felt hard, it was easier that I expected given it's previous status as an E5.

Regardless, I felt it was slightly harder than Strike (E4 6a in NW Rock) at Gogarth that I did on Thursday and far easier then Warpath E5 6a at Roscolyn which I fell off on Friday!

In reply to richard kirby: Great, thread, just what I need to plan the next couple of months climbing.

On Saturday I got completely spanked by Neb Direct at Tremadog (more jamming practive and tape gloves required) so decided I to save Vuclan for my next visit.

For what it's worth, a very experienced E4/5 climber told me yesterday that the Axe is in her opinion the best E4 in North Wales, so I'm sure it deserves to be on the list.

I'm off to the Lakes this weekend so any more recommendation up there would be great.

In reply to richard kirby: Think of the Best E4 on every climable rock type then!

In reply to various:

The Skull: a series of eliminate pitches; junctions with easier routes at each stance.

Resurrection: not really a line, especially in its lower half; junction with an easier route.

Both excellent routes, but doesn't the above rule them out of the "UK's best"?

In reply to Coel Hellier:

zukator: good line

In reply to richard kirby:


I kind of agree, but in a list that represents the best routes in the country, you can't really miss grit out.

I'm not qualified enough to speak, but i think Fair Head has routes that would easily trumph most of those mentioned.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

Aye good call, Wall of Prey probably deserves E4 as opposed to E5. Very well protected 6b (maybe even hard 6a) crux with interest below and above. Great line weaving it's way through an impressive buttress.

In reply to Toby Dunn: are you absolutely insane?! TUMBLE?! very good route, but come on, not really comparable to the likes of some of these mentioned.

Surprised more havent mentioned Brave New World, it's amazing! only E3 in the CC guide, and E4 in the rockfax. More E4 than bloody sunday and star wars.

In reply to: the bloke off to the lakes soon:
Essentials at E4/E5 are Cumbrian, Lost Horizons, Bitter Oasis, Top Gear, and something on the East Wall at Pavey, maybe Fallen Angel or Mother Courage

With the Fay thing, as well as sport fitness easing it there's the issue of immense strength. I dare say ally was told where to go and warmed up on it.

The other thing is that it's nice as part of the North Coast hit list with America, Il Duce and Darkinbad. It'd `just' be an E4 otherwise.

In reply to ally smith:

Of course. If I'd onsighted two `E6s' you'd never have heard the end of it.

E4's kind of a classic grade, and down grading Bloody Sunday and Star Wars would spoil the experience in my opinion, which is more important than grading them correctly. They are not alone in a climber's club guidebook rife with soft touches, so you'd have to regrade a lot of the whole area if you regraded these two. I think Rockfax had doing the direct start (of Luke Skywalker) in mind when they gave Star Wars E4, but when you consider the brief possibility of a factor 2 into the raging sea with only a micro after that, it's understandable why most people go up the nice safe corner and traverse, in especially if you just want to get out of there ASAP to a point on the route where there's some gear.
It's only sensible FFS, even if it is E3 you don't know that at the time.

Doing the direct start's probably what you do if you're super confident at E4, or if it's the second time, or if
you're being pointed at it. But then it's not the same is it.

In reply to richard kirby:

A few comments into the mix:

Decadence and Delta G are both better routes than Flaky Wall.

Mortlock's Arete (with top pitch) and Apocalypse are pretty up there for the Peak.

Mother Night is the best E4 in Pembroke.

Undertone and Witch Hunt are both as good as Brave New World.

Top Gear and Grand Alliance in the Lakes.

Wellington Crack is phenomenal.

Cithaeron is one of the best single pitches I've done. Diamond life is pretty good as well.

Day Tripper at Land's End is very good but I don't think it gets much traffic (you can't belay where described without a rope from above).

The Camel and Ormuzd at Gogarth.

New Dimensions is very good and seems to get ignored these days.

In reply to richard kirby:

At the Roaches I'd put "The Death Knell" in above Wings. For a grit route further east, how about "Profit of Doom"? Those suggesting Downhill Racer must be joking, surely!!

Dave

In reply to Hugh Cottam:


Rubbish, your deluded man!!! No way is Decadence better than Flakey Wall...and I've hardly been flying the flag for F.Wall. Couldn't comment about Delta G, but I find it hard to believe.

You took a while to surface.

In reply to richard kirby:

Let's not forget Horny Lil Devil (Lulworth), a unique DWS jugfest, and Band of Hope Direct (Etive), uniquely lacking any holds. And another Pembroke offering is Alien World Direct.

Three of my favorite E4s - you can't beat sea cliffs!

Cithaeron, Lundy
Pagan, Gogarth
America, Carn Gowla

In reply to richard kirby: as mentioned above, fairhead should come into this somewhere. i hear from a reliable source that E4 is 'the grade' there too so probably if we pick 6 the rest can come from there! cant think of any on grit that i've done that would be contenders.

In reply to richard kirby:

A6/Amber Gambler is better than Flakey Wall, and I believe Lyme Cryme combined with NOBD is too.

Supersonic is better than both but is E5.

Hoa about Roaderunner as an option? Safe, steep, good moves too. E5? You're having a laugh.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:


I've only seconded it, and am not qualified to comment, but I can't imagine more action in a single ropelength. And I've heard exactly the same opinion from other experienced E4/5 climbers too, so I'm inclined to believe it.

In reply to MNT:

Do you mean that Roadrunner is E5?

In reply to richard kirby:

Decadence lacks the line and the flake so its Flakey Wall for me as well along with:

West Face, Bosigran
Rainbow Bridge
Poseidon Adventure
Great Wall, Cloggy
Apocalypse - especially good in one pitch
Limehill
Trevallen Pillar
Resurrection
Archangel (don't waste your breath telling me its E3)

In reply to Simon Lee:

Don't know the first three.

But Great Wall on Cloggy is definitely only E3!!

Always preferred the look of Mortlock's to Apocalypse but not done the latter so can't comment on the quality.

boB

PS. Archangel is E3 really

Great wall is E3

What about Forbidden planet or Moon crack at Curbar. Better than Moonwalk

Freeborn man?

In reply to MNT:

LC with NOBD is E3

In reply to Simon Lee:

Do you reckon Rainbow Bridge is E4? Done properly it as hard as Freeborn Man and more serious.

In reply to tobyfk:

If by properly you mean solo then E5 for sure, if a DWS grade isnt applied which would probably more applicable.

In the guide RB is down as E4. I've not done Freeborn Man but its on the wishlist.

In reply to craig d:

My repeated failures on Moon Crack means I am firmly supportive of the new E5 grade. A number of notables have failed on Forbidden Planet suggesting it is E5 as well. Not tried it myself.

In reply to tobyfk:

Of course I didn't take it, but I have to say, it feels like that.

In reply to Mark Stevenson: Mark, Neb Direct is funny, its the hardest jamming route in the world, even the ordinary route is the hardest jamming route in the world

In reply to Simon Lee:

West Face....looked across at it last summer from Dream. Amazing, but E5 surely. Seem to recall it that in book?

Trevallen Pillar!!! Lots of better E4's already mentioned for Pember's.

You do know Archangel is E3!!

In reply to Simon Lee: Simon Lee: I forgot, how could I, Widespread Ocean of Fear, Lundy. Possibly the best route south of the border.

In reply to Simon Lee:


I meant soloing the whole thing. Some people seem to do a 'lite' version that exits where it goes high after the crux. Which misses out half the route and the most serious section.


Agreed.

In reply to Al Evans:

Its E5 Al.

In reply to richard kirby:


It's E4 in the UKC database, whatever that means. Safe but desperate crux. Scary but fairly easy section lower down, as far as I remember.

In reply to richard kirby:

Yes Archangel is E3, but Don is E4... and better.

I can only assume those slagging Downhill Racer have only top-roped it? Its magnificent, that and White Wand are the only two routes I must have done over fifty times.

In reply to Adam L:

No wonder they're polished ;P.

In reply to Adam L:

I have done Downhill Racer on the Sharp end, it's a good route but I certainly do not think that it one of the top 10 E4's in the UK. It might make the list of top 10 on grit.

Dave

In reply to richard kirby:

Candy Kisses
Buttons and Bows
Track of the Cat
Rusty Halo
Haloween
Face Value
Wall of Prey
Right Wall
West Side Story (Burbage)
West Side Story (Buckbarrow)

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

An intrigueingly mystereous list Tom. Surprised at the lack of Lakeland presence.

I presume a few of these namesakes are at Fairhead and your not downgrading the more well known E5's.

In reply to richard kirby:

Well, just thought I'd remind people that Fairhead is the UK and I really can't think of many E4s on mainland Britain that compare. It seems to lend itself to E3s and E4s, with superb striking lines, surprising variety and generally, good protection. It's freezing cold, but you should go. And there's one Lakes E4 in there that probably doesn't get name checked as much as Lost Horizons (which would get E5 in Wales).

In reply to richard kirby:

Obviously this is all very subjective. I can't believe people are mentioning Downhill Racer and Wings of Unreason, both excellent routes but in the top 10 in the UK? I doubt that.

Top Gear would have to be in there for me. Awesome.
I'd also have the Axe in there. Awesome.

Fay is mega soft touch E4, I can't believe people are saying it should be E5. I did this with little mileage under my belt one summer. In fact I think most routes at Sharpnose are at least a grade overgraded, except maybe the HVSs and I can't comment on the E6s and above. Pacemaker was my first ever E5 onsight. Its Easy. Can you believe that Break on Through could ever get E4. Its lakes E2 man. In fact, there are harder lakes E3s that both Fay and Pacemaker. Anyhow, sharpnose rant over.

Resurrection has to be in there.
Not sure about electric blue.

Wouldn't have great wall in there either. Its wack, but then again some people rave on about it.

I'd have flaky wall for sure but haven't done decadence so not sure if thats better.

Central Wall at Kilnsey - are you boys having a laugh. No chance. Doubt it'd be in my top 50. Next you'll be saying some E4 at Pex.

The cumbrian is really E4 so I think I'd have that in there.

Star Wars is good but I think there are better E4's are pembroke. A few have been mentioned already.

For a bit of something different how about one of the classic E4s in the Lancs quarries? Adrendaline? Loopy? Master Spy / Counter Intellengence combo? Maybe not. They are better than Wings and Downhill though. Saying that, I didn't on-sight Downhill so maybe if I had on-sighted it then it would be up there.


The think the top pitch of Dry Grasp is better than Grand Alliance.

I'd have slender in there too without a doubt.

Some food for thought.

In reply to Adam L:

If you do routes repeatedly much lower than your limit you lose your entitlement to offer a meaningful opinion on the grade. This particularly applies to those blessed with gritstone wizardry.

IMO Consenting Adults is 6B+/C

In reply to Simon Lee:

Come on Simon, it's top end 6b really.

Andy F

In reply to Robert Durran:

Freak out and Titan's Wall both excellent plus El Dorado on Aonach Dubh looks gob smacking.

An excellent one pitcher is The Torridonian E4 6a or 6b Seann a'Mhullin in Torridon is a classic and comparable to many grit classics.

The Stac polly E4's should also be classics when I hopefully get round to doing them.

Also many a good E4 route in Glen nevis with a fair number of routes being upgraded in the latest guide book as more people from the south climb there and grades are compared with elsewhere.

In reply to Simon Lee:

I'm not opining on the grade, just the quality! Which can only be really measured after many ascents...

In reply to Adam L:

I was referring to the correct grading of Archangel.

I also recognise this goes against decades of brainwashing.

In reply to Grizzly:

I would say that Dry Grasp is one of the best E4s I've ever done. Needs to be clean though. The first 2 pitchs are rubbish so I'd recommend people abseil in to do the top pitch.

I though Fay and Pacemaker were quite easy for the grade. The state of the pegs was awful but they could be backed up.

Jas

In reply to richard kirby: If Archangel is not given E4 status for the purpose of this list then no way can Star Wars or Bloody Sunday! Although having said that, I agree with Adam that Don is better. They're both fantastic but you get a bit more of Don. Only marginally harder too.

In reply to richard kirby:
Not in order

Pan
Flakey Wall
Star Wars
Resurrection
Grand Alliance
Trevallen Pillar
Tumble
Endolphin Rush
Freak Out
Freeborn Man

In reply to richard kirby:

A few votes for 'Brave New World' but I thought 'Ghostly Galleon' was perhaps even better? 'Mortlocks Arete' and 'Flaky Wall' compete with 'Bitterfingers','Wee Doris', 'Oliver' and 'Millionaire Touch' for the Peak contender(s), Oh, and 'Alien' at W-C-J.