UKC

I'm trying, for the first time in my life, to do some training.

I've found that in order to improve arm strength I have to alternate phases of hypertrophy & recruitment training.

All the techniques I know of for finger training ( finger & campus boards, bouldering) are isometric.

Is hypertrophy best trained isometrically? If so is it just a question of varying the duration & if so by how much? All the training articles I've read on fingerboard training suggest 8s at most. I assume this is for recruitment?

Sorry about all the questions at once.
Any thoughts appreciated.
Thanks

ian

In reply to i.munro: you dont have to do hypotrophy training infact i think its more beneficial to do recruitment training if you already have decent sized muscles.
for finger strength do some deadhangs with added weight.use enough weight so you can only hang edges for about 5-7 seconds.maybe best to start off at a lower weight so you dont bugger your fingers up.

In reply to i.munro:

The best ways of getting strong fingers are deadhangs,campus boards and bouldering.

All of these boost neurological recruitment (ie they get more muscle fibres activated) more than hypertrophy ( which makes the muscle bigger).

Isometric exercises are ones where muscles dont change length (ie there is no movement in the joints). Campus boards and bouldering are not isometric. Deadhangs are.

Isometrics will do nothing for hypertrophy.

Muscle failure after 8 repetitions of an exercise will train hypertrophy. To train recruitment you want muscle falure after 1 rep.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

In reply to Static:

In reply to Static:


A bit thanks, but I'm still not clear how to train for hypertrophy although you have made it clear why most things that I'm aware of won't do it.

In reply to i.munro: You say that you want to get striong arms. If you have weak arms and shoulders then hypertrophy will get you stronger arms at the expense of more bulk and hence more weight. If this is what you want you can train this on the finger board by doing some pull-ups on the largest holds. This is not an isometric exercise as has been pointed out as you pull up themuscles shortens, this is concentric contraction. As you lower down the muscle lengthens and this is eccentric contraction. Deadhangs do neither so this is isometric. When I use my fingerboard I try to hold on for max 8s and if can I either use a smaller hold or if ur already on the smallest, either use less finger or one arm or add weight.

Deadhangs, fingerboards, campus etc should all be a supplement to climbing not a replacement. I find I get stronger much quicker by trying problems that are slightly too difficult for me. This is because of specificity (sp?), you become what you do.

When using a finger board make sure you keep a bend in the arms and do not lock out the elbows, your elbows will thank you for it!

In reply to ouch:

when you say keep yours arms bent am I right in thinking just a few degrees from straight will do?

In reply to ouch:

Sorry, I said that I needed to alternate recruitment & hypertrophy training phases in order to get stronger arms
(perhaps less weak would be more accurate).

After climbing for a very loooong time.. I find I'm making no gains any more from bouldering. By applying this approach I've improved my arm strength a lttle.

I'd like to apply the same approach, which seems to have worked, to finger training.

.

In reply to blancbleu:

From what I've read and what others have told me you need to keep a bend in your arms so the muscles around the shoulders and elbows are activated. This will help protect them. You dont have to go for 90 degree lock off (unless you are training lock off strength!) but you will be able to feel when the muscles are active and you get a feeling of pulling upwards, this also helps as it mimics climbing moves.

In reply to anyone:

This seems like as good as time as any to ask my own question (sorry i.munro!).

I once remember someone saying that to get strong fingers, you need to elongate your finger tendons. I was wondering if you did alot of training to do this, how long would it take of non-climbing/training for them to return back to length/strength.
Would it be easier to redeem your finger strength later on in life if you once upon a time had a good base finger strength?

In reply to Reaver2k:

In my experience (which is of training very hard then pretty much stopping), muscular strength will fade away pretty quickly, while strength in tendons will remain.

I used to have strong arms, but as I've given training a bit of a break they have got weaker. However, my fingers seem to have not lost any strength, and if anything they have got stronger (as i can boulder the same sort of grades, but without the help of strong arms!)

In reply to Robo:

What sort of lay-off is that after? Not planning on taking a lay-off just curious about these sorts of things lol.

In reply to i.munro:
The bulk associated with forearm hypertrophy isn't ever going to be heavy enough to cause a problem to your strength to weight ratio.
Isometrics have traditionally not been associated with hypertrophy, however this is probably because of the short (<10secs) contraction times usually used. Longer contraction times, 30secs repeated with short rests have shown comparable degrees of hypertrophy to concentric/eccentric contraction training.
Current thinking on hypertrophy training is that fatigue (and specifically fatigue metabolites) are essential for growth, so lactic acid is a useful marker of intensity.
For hypertrophy I use the bottom pocket of a Metolius rockring attached to a 17kg plate, and curl it with an isometric pause at the top and bottom of the motion for around 10 reps. The isometric pause serves to occlude blood flow and introduce fatigue, studies done using this protocol, and some using tourniquets to induce similar blood flow restriction have been shown to be superior to just concentric/eccentric training.
The isometric element also seems to make it crossover more readily to usable grip strength. If I was doing a purely dynamic form of hypertrophy training I wouldn't expect to see any immediate increase in strength from the increase in mass, it would need some sport-specific training to learn to recruit that strength.
Remember that when you increase muscle mass you effectively decrease mitochondrial and capillary density, so you need to do some aerobic forearm training as well to avoid any negative effects on endurance.

In reply to Serpico:

Thanks. I appreciate your thoughts & the fact that you both understood the question & seem to know what you're talking about,

I'll have a go at your approach. From what you say two handed fingerboarding 30s sets /short-ish rests might be worth a try as well.

In reply to Serpico:


Sorry for being slow but.....

How do you set this up? If "Curling" up I'm not sure how you use the hold on to the rock ring/hold?

I could understand pulling down on a cable pull down....

Good effort on the posts. Interesting and informative stuff (especially as all I've got train with is a gym and some rock rings!).

In reply to galpinos:
Tie the weight to the RR, pick the RR up using the bottom pocket (now the top pocket because the RR is upside down), hold in that position (open handed)for a few secs then curl your fingers into a crimp position and hold, lower and repeat.

In reply to galpinos:


In that case think about doing fingerboard type training for recruitment (ie 2-8s sets longish rests isometric) using the RR as a handle on a machine. Be careful to set it up so that if your fingers slip the plates only drop an inch or so.

I'm assuming you've done a fair bit of climbing & are just away somewhere at the moment.

In reply to i.munro:
You could try this:
Get a set of scales and weigh yourself (Kgs is easier). Put the scales beneath your fingerboard and select the hold and grip position you want to train. Get the hold with one hand and stand on the scales. Pull down as hard as you can on the hold whilst trying to lift your feet off the scales. The minimum weight you can sustain on the scales for 2-3 secs subtracted from your bodyweight is your MVC (Max Voluntary Contraction) for that grip/hold combination. Write this down for each grip, this is the benchmark of whether you are improving and the basis for your training volume.
Basic HYP routine: 4x30s hangs @70%MVC with 1 minute rests. Then rest for 5-10mins and repeat for different grip.
The grips I recommend are: 3finger open hand, 4 finger open hand, and 4 finger half crimp (no thumb). I don't train pinches but that's only because I don't have pinch holds or a problem with pinches.
Things to watch out for: Because of the length of time you're hanging form is critical, always keep tension in your shoulders and a slight bend in your arms; never hang on the joints. If you get stiffness in the fingers after hanging try breaking the reps into 3x10secs with only the amount of time it takes to curl the fingers into a fist as rest. If you still get stiffness then this exercise isn't for you, try a concentric/eccentric exercise, like the RockRings one I described.

In reply to Serpico:

Thanks again. I may go for the RR approach because it's so much easier to track weight and therefore progress.

In reply to Serpico:

Thanks. I was interpreting the curl as an arm curl as opposed to the finger curl.

I'll try this in the gym.

Cheers.

In reply to i.munro:

I'm currently doing 4 seesions in the gym a week.

2 sessions protagonistic weights combined with deadhangs and metolius RR workout, 2 sessions antagonistic weights and deadhangs.

I've a couple on nights when I do cardio stuff. I'm stuck out in Mumbai in the monsooon season working long hours so the gym is the only option. Back for a week at the end of July so hoping the weather gets better in the UK!

Thanks for the help.

In reply to galpinos:

Good luck. I'd be interested to hear how this impacts on your climbing,

In reply to galpinos: Seems like we meet again on the web talking about training whilst stuck in some wierd place, in my case Libya (different nick-name, same person!)
I now have me a fingerboard and a 3 rung campus set up in the gym here. I am doing a routine now which seems to be ok. I put it together using all the articles I found. I goes like this... (after 20 min warm-up)
3 sets of 4 fingertip pull-ups
2 sets of 6 fingertip pull-ups
1 set of 8 ft pu's
3 reps of an 8 move problem on the fingerboard (I can just manage 9 moves on the first go, the last two goes are less than 8 moves)
Deadhanging. Here I do 2 handed x 5 reps on the minute, I have a hold which I can hang for about 8 secs on the first go and less on the other goes.
I also have a pulley/weight thing attatched to the campus, and I sling 7kg on this, put my foot through the handle and do a double armed hang, then drop one off, touch me arse and back up, then the other hand off and so on. So far I have managed to take each hand off 4 times before dropping off, feels like very good finger training.
I then do undercling reps with the rockrings, 90kg, 3x8 reps which is prolly about 90% effort, but I have no more weights.
Finish off with 2x3 reps weighted pull-ups and mega max.
Warm down is triceps work (press-ups) and bench press (light weights) and 20 mins in the pool.

3 times a week.

Aerobic only on the other 4 days.

When I write it down it sounds like a lot, but I always feel like I should do more finger work, and struggle to adhere to the 'quit while you're strong' philososphy.

The biggest problem is blisters from the campus and fingerboard holds, I look like a drummer I have so much tape on, but I did get 3 blisters 2nd time round this trip, so I have to tape...

In reply to Nj:

Ahhhh... Small world.

Wow, that does seem a lot!

I've not got option of the campus moves /mini foot off/on circuit with the rock rings but will add in the underclings.

I've realised that my fingers are th e real weak point (and endurance). The muscle work is just to stop me losing strength, the main focus is to get the fingers up to speed.

In reply to i.munro:

So will I! It'll be to the good I hope!

In reply to Serpico:
@serpico:
I did training for fingers with the scale like you described for the last months. I think its great but now i reached a plateau. I trained with 70% MVC but i had no chance to hang longer than for 10 seconds. So i cant understand how 4x30s @ 70% seems possible. I did 5-7 sets of 5s holding, 5s break, and 3 minutes break between sets. My intention was to train hypertrophy cause i thought 60-80% of MVC is hypertrophy training.

In october im going to start new training, maybe this time go for recruitment. Some sets of hanging 5-7s @ 90% MVC and then 3 minutes break. What do you think ?

In reply to moeh:
The 4X30s @70% was copied straight from this study:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/x6x412x072t6rp14/
I find it ok to hang continuously open handed at that intensity but for crimped I think it should be interspersed with brief rests just long enough to curl the fingers and keep the joints lubricated.
Here's a link for anybody prepared to wade through it on the role of fatigue in hypertrophy training:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/506930

Re: recruitment. I tend to do this either on the campus board or better still by bouldering. When I've done it on a fingerboard I've just gone for whatever hold I can hang for about 3secs, without checking what %MVC it was, and taking as much rest as I needed.

In reply to Serpico:

As you're on here anyway Serpico can I ask a couple of questions re your finger training. They're kind of specific but bear with me, I'm just trying to identify my weaknesses.

When you do curls with a plate & Rock Ring do you attach the RR in such a way that it can swivel freely or do you have it lying by the side of the plate?
I've found this makes quite a difference as if the RR can swivel the pockets become quite a bit less positive.

Lastly can I ask your weight? Don't feel you have to say.
I'm just trying to work out if my fingers are as weak as my arms relative to someone competent.

Thanks

Ian

In reply to i.munro:

I take the loop from the RR thread it through the hole in the plate and clip it to a biner on the other side.
Some stats: 5'7", 57.5Kgs, I can deadhang the bottom pocket on the RR with one arm for 3-4secs, and I'm still crap at pull-ups: 11.

In reply to Serpico:



Thanks. I appreciate the info. Looks like we are in the same ball park for finger strength, sadly I'm quite a bit heavier at 65Kg.


As for arm strength do you mean one or two handed pull-ups?
I'm either quite a bit stronger or a lot weaker, depending on the answer.


Ian

In reply to i.munro:
definitely two handed.

In reply to Serpico:

Thanks again, looks like I need to forget arm strength & lose some unsightly fat. Now where did I put that Guillotine..

Ian