UKC

I don't think this is a stupid question, but on bolted routes (NOT Trad!) where there is no danger of a piece of gear lifting out:

Is there a problem with using a snap link instead of a quickdraw?

This assuming that the route is straight and holding the rope closer fo the rock would not cause cause unnecessary friction.
I cant find any literature on this and as a QD isnt dynamic it doesnt really contribute to softening a fall.
I've seen a photo of the nose where the climbers seemed to only be using snapgates (although this may possibly have been an aid section - not too familiar w/El Cap)

In reply to ShaunMc:

good question...nothing's stopping you i guess...have done it when i've run out of QD's.....any safety concerns?

In reply to ShaunMc:
Maybe the rope could rub against the bolt, rather than the smoother inner surfaces of a karabiner?

In reply to ShaunMc: If you see the great Ron Fawcett in Fawcett on rock he hardly ever used quickdraws on bolted routes.

Sometimes he clipped two carabiners together to extend runners (which we know is bad), but seems to have survived...

Maybe rope drag could be an issue, but I'm sure you are smart enough to make your own descisions...

In reply to ShaunMc:

Rope drag would be an issue unless its dead straight and vertical, plus falling straight onto a bolt with no extender would slam you into the rock alot harder. Probably easier to unclip the bolt accidentally as well, given that the krab is essentially captive.

In reply to ShaunMc:


There is an issue where the distance between the rope and the bolt causes problems of a quite serious nature - I will search my previous posts for the link as I can not remember the details but the answer to your question is don't do it...

bluebrad

In reply to jacob davies: Because you can snap the carabiner by twisting it metal on metal in a fall. There have been numerous accidents across the years with krabs getting twisted against bolts and snapping. Its not unusual to clip the first bolt with a screw gate though if thats where the crux is.

In reply to ShaunMc:

Yawn, well in the olden days when QDs had not been invented, in fact tape runners had not been invented, we used to do that on most routes, wires, bolts, pegs all the same. We even, (gasp of astonishment) used to couple krabs together to get the rope to run freely.

That is why we olde worlde climbers are used to checking we are not back clipping runners, if we had not done so we would soon have had a load of drag on the rope.

In reply to ShaunMc: ALso makes it a lot harder to clip the rope in i'd imagine. You'd have to clip it into the bolt, then flip it over so the opening is at the bottom. Even if you were redpointing (i.e. clips already in place, i'd imagine it's stil harder to clip a single crab than a quickdraw when in extremis.

Having said that on bold slate routes with occasional bolts, I put a single screwgate on

In reply to ShaunMc: Nowt rong with that. I do it often on first clips where the climbing is hard and a QD might be too long to stop you hitting the floor.

In reply to sutty:

We also were much stronger as Krabs were made of steel and weighed a ton.

Interesting point though sutty. Wonder when the first commercially produced quickdraw came out.

In reply to graeme jackson:

Modern alloy krabs are stronger in weight holding capabilities than the old steel ones I think. Maybe not as strong when twisted against another, or a hanger?

DMM man, you are needed.

In reply to ShaunMc:

see here for a decent explanation

http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=349

In reply to ShaunMc:

I'd agree with everyone so far, but I'd also mention burring. If you take repeated falls onto a bolt, and you're only using one krab on the bolt, and the rope, then it's possible to get sharp edges on the inside of the krab. If the krab then twists round, and your rope is running over said sharp edges, and you fall onto it, it's gonna start destroying your rope very quickly. Far more of a problem with modern Aluminium krabs too.

In reply to ShaunMc:

I'm a bit depressed by the ignorance on display in this thread ..

The MAIN reason for using quickdraws is to reduce the likelihood of the rope crossing across the outside of the krab gate, and opening it. Without the flexibility introduced by the quickdraw, it is alarmingly easy to do this, especially if the rope is clipped the wrong way round from the most direct line of the rope. .. usually referred to as "back-clipping".

A few seconds googling brings up :

http://www.spadout.com/wiki/index.php/Quickdraw

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Unclip.htm

These show that unclipping is possible even with a quickdraw. With a single krab the possibility is much, much greater.

Bent gate krabs, especially, should only ever be used at the "rope" end of a quickdraw. They have NO real application anywhere else.

As mentioned above, a low first bolt can sometimes be clipped with a single krab, to usefully reduce the length of a fall so close to the ground. This single krab should always be a screwgate .. and with the gate securely locked.

CJ.

In reply to Anonymous:
You do realise that bent gate krabs are easier to unclip if you back clip than straight gates, don't you? Which is why IMHO bent gates don't have a place on a rack. Infact solid gates don't have a place on a rack apart from racking wires, holding emergency shoe laces or unless they are lockable. PLus they're heavy, freeze shut, judder open because of gate weight, and fail at the gate rather than locking shut if loaded to failure...

In reply to mike kann:

Of course I do, in fact this point is made very clear in one of the links I gave above..

Nevertheless, there are an awful lot of bent gate krabs out there, and climbers are going to continue using them for some time into the future ...

You don't have to tell me, mate, tell that lot further up this thread ..

CJ.

In reply to ShaunMc:

There are at least 3 reasons why you don't do this. The first is to do with how the krab orientates its self during a fall. There is an increased danger that because the krab annot orientate itself to the best position relative to the rope, a) the rope can more easily unclip itself during a fall (by running over the gate) or b) the krab getting caught in the wrong orientation on the bolt and therefore subject to twisting or cross loads.

The third reason is simply the extra drag incurred as bolts are rarely in line and the rope is held closer to the rock.

Of course there are exceptions, like on the first bolt where a deck out could not be stopped with the extra length of a quickdraw but in this case its safer to use a screwgate.