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Probably like many others I’ve been concerned for some time about the impact of climbing at Bridestones above Todmorden. The rock has shown signs of damage caused by climbing for many years, but more recently the process of erosion seems to have accelerated to the point now where many areas feature deep, scoop-like scars where footholds have become worn and enlarged.
Anyway, I recently decided it might be an idea to try to do something about this problem, following some sporadic efforts by others in years gone by. My plan was to take a set of photos of the current state of the damage and to use these as a starting point for a discussion, on here and with the BMC, around whether some kind of repair/stabilisation would be appropriate and, if so, how this should be done.
Imagine my surprise when Anne and I went up there on Saturday to find someone had beaten me to it! As far as I can see, all the serious scars have now been treated with some kind of resin. Where previously the rock exposed by the scars was very fragile and sandy, it now has a solid, tough surface. Must say I personally am pretty impressed and glad that someone has made the effort to do this, but does anyone know anything about this work, i.e. who did it, when, how, whether they were acting after any kind of consultation?
Anybody else been up recently and got any opinions?
Anyway, I recently decided it might be an idea to try to do something about this problem, following some sporadic efforts by others in years gone by. My plan was to take a set of photos of the current state of the damage and to use these as a starting point for a discussion, on here and with the BMC, around whether some kind of repair/stabilisation would be appropriate and, if so, how this should be done.
Imagine my surprise when Anne and I went up there on Saturday to find someone had beaten me to it! As far as I can see, all the serious scars have now been treated with some kind of resin. Where previously the rock exposed by the scars was very fragile and sandy, it now has a solid, tough surface. Must say I personally am pretty impressed and glad that someone has made the effort to do this, but does anyone know anything about this work, i.e. who did it, when, how, whether they were acting after any kind of consultation?
Anybody else been up recently and got any opinions?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Ah, that explains it. I was a bit confused last time I was there a couple of weeks back, I thought it was one more act of bouldering vandalism. Sounds like a good idea.
Ah, that explains it. I was a bit confused last time I was there a couple of weeks back, I thought it was one more act of bouldering vandalism. Sounds like a good idea.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Send them up to Northumberland, thats get the worst scars I've seen!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Ah yes:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1446
I think it's to be applauded and they've done a really good job. Bit surprised I hadn't heard more about their intentions before though - can't see any specific mention of the Bridestones on the BMC site. Do you know when it was done?
Ah yes:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1446
I think it's to be applauded and they've done a really good job. Bit surprised I hadn't heard more about their intentions before though - can't see any specific mention of the Bridestones on the BMC site. Do you know when it was done?
In reply to Jimmy D:
I remember reading an article about it in a recent Summit. IIRC a varnish was used which permeated the rock, then evaporated, binding the grit matrix together.
I'll see if I can find it tonight.
I remember reading an article about it in a recent Summit. IIRC a varnish was used which permeated the rock, then evaporated, binding the grit matrix together.
I'll see if I can find it tonight.
Dave Hinton did some repairs a few years back and has tried to keep up to them, but as you know the Brides has taken a hammering over the past few years. Prior to Dave there were some repairs made, but I don't know who did those.
Recently,I contacted the BMC to ask if they would supply me with the know how and means to repair the place and Guy Keating very kindly bought in the reagents. Guy went up there and did half the Brides - from the Egg to around the Obscene Cleft. He left the reagents with me and I have yet to do the rest (sorry Guy...I'll do it soon).
My aim is to try and slow the terrible errosion that is occuring. Ideally, I would also like to repair the hold (mainly footholds), but this is not without technical difficulty. I'd be keen to hear from anybody with expertise in this type of thing.
Cheers,
Craig
Recently,I contacted the BMC to ask if they would supply me with the know how and means to repair the place and Guy Keating very kindly bought in the reagents. Guy went up there and did half the Brides - from the Egg to around the Obscene Cleft. He left the reagents with me and I have yet to do the rest (sorry Guy...I'll do it soon).
My aim is to try and slow the terrible errosion that is occuring. Ideally, I would also like to repair the hold (mainly footholds), but this is not without technical difficulty. I'd be keen to hear from anybody with expertise in this type of thing.
Cheers,
Craig
In reply to Chris Tan Ver. L SP2:
Hi Chris,
This is the stuff we have. I think it needs a few coats over time to really make a good job. If anybody would like to get involved we could meet up and blitz the place. Get in touch.
Craig
Hi Chris,
This is the stuff we have. I think it needs a few coats over time to really make a good job. If anybody would like to get involved we could meet up and blitz the place. Get in touch.
Craig
In reply to Chris Tan Ver. L SP2:
Yup it's mentioned in the link above. It was a technique developed by a guy called Mike Vetterlein for southern sandstone. Did a bit of research on it a while ago but never got round to doing anything with it.
Yup it's mentioned in the link above. It was a technique developed by a guy called Mike Vetterlein for southern sandstone. Did a bit of research on it a while ago but never got round to doing anything with it.
In reply to Craig Smith:
Not much of a boulderer but I do have 10th - 17th off and can get a train to Tod.
Email me directly. Any excuse to play with solvents
Not much of a boulderer but I do have 10th - 17th off and can get a train to Tod.
Email me directly. Any excuse to play with solvents
In reply to Jimmy D:
I was wondering. The general consensus among Southern Sandstone climbers is that this sort damage is hugely accelerated by failure to clean feet before climbing. The
grit on the shoes acting as a sort of grinding paste.
As a result we've been trying to encourage people to go back to climbing with a rag & carpet along with a pad.
Would you say this was the same situation?
I was wondering. The general consensus among Southern Sandstone climbers is that this sort damage is hugely accelerated by failure to clean feet before climbing. The
grit on the shoes acting as a sort of grinding paste.
As a result we've been trying to encourage people to go back to climbing with a rag & carpet along with a pad.
Would you say this was the same situation?
In reply to i.munro:
Certainly it helps to have clean shoes, but given the numbers of people climbing I do think that this kind of problem is inevitable, no matter how carful we might be as individuals.
Certainly it helps to have clean shoes, but given the numbers of people climbing I do think that this kind of problem is inevitable, no matter how carful we might be as individuals.
In reply to Jimmy D:
Chris, Jimmy, might be able to do this Friday 12th pm. Any good?
We could meet in Tod and get the job done in a few hours.
email me on Craig.smith@manchester.ac.uk so we can set it up.
C
Chris, Jimmy, might be able to do this Friday 12th pm. Any good?
We could meet in Tod and get the job done in a few hours.
email me on Craig.smith@manchester.ac.uk so we can set it up.
C
Nice too see someone has noticed at last!
The Kebs was one of the crags I started climbing at, and it was saddening to see the amount of erosion on classics like Jerry’s Arête or the ds. to Charlotte Rampling…a few more years of it and today’s youth would denied the fun we had.
So, spurred on by Craig S. I went up there a few weeks ago on a bright and blustery Mon. morn (when it was nice and quite) and treated many of the eroding holds with the French polish/solvent mix successfully tested on other grit bouldering crags.
The solution appeared to ‘take’ very well – rapidly permeating the grit and hardening quickly. It does not appear to have affected the friction, and has defo. solidified the sandy scars - check-out the treated footholds on the prob. left of Big Bash.
Lets hope it lasts as long as it has done on the sandstone crags in Kent, and if anyone can think of other eroding problems/crags which might benefit from some restorative work, please get in touch – guy@thebmc.co.uk
Guy Keating
BMC A&C Officer.
The Kebs was one of the crags I started climbing at, and it was saddening to see the amount of erosion on classics like Jerry’s Arête or the ds. to Charlotte Rampling…a few more years of it and today’s youth would denied the fun we had.
So, spurred on by Craig S. I went up there a few weeks ago on a bright and blustery Mon. morn (when it was nice and quite) and treated many of the eroding holds with the French polish/solvent mix successfully tested on other grit bouldering crags.
The solution appeared to ‘take’ very well – rapidly permeating the grit and hardening quickly. It does not appear to have affected the friction, and has defo. solidified the sandy scars - check-out the treated footholds on the prob. left of Big Bash.
Lets hope it lasts as long as it has done on the sandstone crags in Kent, and if anyone can think of other eroding problems/crags which might benefit from some restorative work, please get in touch – guy@thebmc.co.uk
Guy Keating
BMC A&C Officer.
In reply to Guy Keating, BMC:
Bowden Doors is really suffering, has needed something like this for years, it has got noticably worse in recent years, mainly on the bouldering style problems.
Bowden Doors is really suffering, has needed something like this for years, it has got noticably worse in recent years, mainly on the bouldering style problems.
Andy,
Can you give me a call to discuss Bowden.
Tel 0161 4383309
Cheers
guy
Can you give me a call to discuss Bowden.
Tel 0161 4383309
Cheers
guy
In reply to Jimmy D:
If you're correct then this damage should be visible on footholds at all heights. I've only seen it on low holds, one reason I believe that it's dirt not rubber doing the damage (after a couple of moves most of the dirt wears off) . Are you getting this sort of damage on any high footholds?
>
> Certainly it helps to have clean shoes, but given the numbers of people climbing I do think that this kind of problem is inevitable, no matter how carful we might be as individuals.
> Certainly it helps to have clean shoes, but given the numbers of people climbing I do think that this kind of problem is inevitable, no matter how carful we might be as individuals.
If you're correct then this damage should be visible on footholds at all heights. I've only seen it on low holds, one reason I believe that it's dirt not rubber doing the damage (after a couple of moves most of the dirt wears off) . Are you getting this sort of damage on any high footholds?
In reply to i.munro:
On boulder problems low footholds get a lot more use than high footholds, hence more damage.
On boulder problems low footholds get a lot more use than high footholds, hence more damage.
In reply to i.munro:
I think you are missing something? it's the repetetive nature of bouldering, the ease of trying the starting moves, it's the same up at Bowden the low Starting footholds, i'm sure in the past starting off the deck would cause problems, but every body uses pads these days.
I think you are missing something? it's the repetetive nature of bouldering, the ease of trying the starting moves, it's the same up at Bowden the low Starting footholds, i'm sure in the past starting off the deck would cause problems, but every body uses pads these days.
In reply to Conquistador of the usless:
Yeah everybody does use pads & so do I.
Still end up with s^&* all over my feet unless I specifically clean them.
I also see people starting with their a$%se on the pad & feet in the mud more often than not.
Yeah everybody does use pads & so do I.
Still end up with s^&* all over my feet unless I specifically clean them.
I also see people starting with their a$%se on the pad & feet in the mud more often than not.
In reply to i.munro:
I agree, it's blatantly obvious that gritty rubber is more abrasive a substance than clean rubber... just think of sandpaper...
I agree, it's blatantly obvious that gritty rubber is more abrasive a substance than clean rubber... just think of sandpaper...
In reply to gingerkate:
Lets apply the "Kebs rules" if you cant do it 3rd go move on. Dont brush is another good idea, dont climb damp rock it wears quicker and (I Know) dont teach gran to suck eggs
Lets apply the "Kebs rules" if you cant do it 3rd go move on. Dont brush is another good idea, dont climb damp rock it wears quicker and (I Know) dont teach gran to suck eggs
In reply to Guy Keating, BMC:
Good to see people like you being pro-active and making an effort to preserve a quality venue. Respect due.
Good to see people like you being pro-active and making an effort to preserve a quality venue. Respect due.
In reply to i.munro:
I guess i just have impeccable etiquette when it comes to dirty boots, how are you going to get anywhere on a boulder problem with muddy shoes? defeats the purpose of serious bouldering shirley.
I guess i just have impeccable etiquette when it comes to dirty boots, how are you going to get anywhere on a boulder problem with muddy shoes? defeats the purpose of serious bouldering shirley.
In reply to Craig Smith:
I live in tod and could probably spare an afternoon on friday to help out. I might even be able to provide flapjack.
I live in tod and could probably spare an afternoon on friday to help out. I might even be able to provide flapjack.
In reply to Conquistador of the usless:
>how are you going to get anywhere on a boulder problem >with muddy shoes? defeats the purpose of serious >bouldering shirley.
Couldn't agree more but I would say about 10% of the peeps I see darn sarf & at Bleau agree. Even the wads don't bother unless it's at their limit, presumably forgetting that their warm-up could be someone else's project.
I'm convinced this is the biggest factor in the way low holds are getting trashed in these places. You can often hear the grinding noise from meters away.
Wondered if this s%^& is spreading ooop north as well.
>how are you going to get anywhere on a boulder problem >with muddy shoes? defeats the purpose of serious >bouldering shirley.
Couldn't agree more but I would say about 10% of the peeps I see darn sarf & at Bleau agree. Even the wads don't bother unless it's at their limit, presumably forgetting that their warm-up could be someone else's project.
I'm convinced this is the biggest factor in the way low holds are getting trashed in these places. You can often hear the grinding noise from meters away.
Wondered if this s%^& is spreading ooop north as well.
In reply to Guy Keating, BMC:
Hurrah!
Good on you for doing something, I kind of thought it was a lost cause and had given up bouldering there.
It's not just dirty shoes doing the damage, even when you clean your shoes and place them well you can still feel the grains of sand under your feet. Once the hard crust of the rock is broken the rock is just too delicate to stand on without eroding it.
Hurrah!
Good on you for doing something, I kind of thought it was a lost cause and had given up bouldering there.
It's not just dirty shoes doing the damage, even when you clean your shoes and place them well you can still feel the grains of sand under your feet. Once the hard crust of the rock is broken the rock is just too delicate to stand on without eroding it.
In reply to i.munro:
Good point but Kebs is definately a victim of wear and tear. Problem is the rock beneath the hard patina is so soft even ordinary rubber wears it really quick.
I'd love to be involved with this, big up to Dave Hinton, Mr Bridestones has been looking after the place for years.
The recent erosion is heartbreaking.
The Ent ™
Good point but Kebs is definately a victim of wear and tear. Problem is the rock beneath the hard patina is so soft even ordinary rubber wears it really quick.
I'd love to be involved with this, big up to Dave Hinton, Mr Bridestones has been looking after the place for years.
The recent erosion is heartbreaking.
The Ent ™
In reply to MeMeMe:
Oh I wasn't arguing about repair being required. Judging from what I've seen it works pretty well. But I do think dirt was a big factor in the crust being broken in the first place & some care might prevent it being needed elsewhere.
> (In reply to Guy Keating, BMC)
>
> It's not just dirty shoes doing the damage, even when you clean your shoes and place them well you can still feel the grains of sand under your feet. Once the hard crust of the rock is broken the rock is just too delicate to stand on without eroding it.
>
> It's not just dirty shoes doing the damage, even when you clean your shoes and place them well you can still feel the grains of sand under your feet. Once the hard crust of the rock is broken the rock is just too delicate to stand on without eroding it.
Oh I wasn't arguing about repair being required. Judging from what I've seen it works pretty well. But I do think dirt was a big factor in the crust being broken in the first place & some care might prevent it being needed elsewhere.
In reply to i.munro:
I think we are agreeing (I'm not sure if that's allowed on Rock Talk).
People should definitely clean their shoes, it doesn't help anyone when they don't, the damage on the Bridestones (pre-repair) is such that it was getting worse whether they cleaned their shoes or not.
I think we are agreeing (I'm not sure if that's allowed on Rock Talk).
People should definitely clean their shoes, it doesn't help anyone when they don't, the damage on the Bridestones (pre-repair) is such that it was getting worse whether they cleaned their shoes or not.
In reply to Jimmy D:
I believe that the same resin has been used by the BMC at Newstones to great affect. I suspect that Bridestones will get more traffic than Newstones so will be interested to see how well it stands the test of time.
I believe that the same resin has been used by the BMC at Newstones to great affect. I suspect that Bridestones will get more traffic than Newstones so will be interested to see how well it stands the test of time.
In reply to Mini: hope its better than the last resin incident at bridestones.personally i think if holds get in that state we should just stop climbing on them rather than alter the rock.isnt resin a big no no on grit?
In reply to MeMeMe:
Yeah I've done this agreeing stuff before. Strange isn't it? If I was up there I'd be very grateful for the work thats being done.
I was curious because it sounds like you're now going through exactly the same process we've been through down here & I'm told they're going through in Bleau & even with the repair nothings ever quite as good as it was originally.
I really can't understand why it's so hard to get this message across. I think part of it is carrying across habits from the wall & steping straight on without thinking.
Yeah I've done this agreeing stuff before. Strange isn't it? If I was up there I'd be very grateful for the work thats being done.
I was curious because it sounds like you're now going through exactly the same process we've been through down here & I'm told they're going through in Bleau & even with the repair nothings ever quite as good as it was originally.
I really can't understand why it's so hard to get this message across. I think part of it is carrying across habits from the wall & steping straight on without thinking.
In reply to i.munro:
Yeah the local County hotshots take great delight in sending other peoples hard problems in trainers and even Wellies!!?? yep Monty Pythons (eng 6b)lapped in wellies i heard, i asks you.
So i guess you do have a point.
Yeah the local County hotshots take great delight in sending other peoples hard problems in trainers and even Wellies!!?? yep Monty Pythons (eng 6b)lapped in wellies i heard, i asks you.
So i guess you do have a point.
In reply to Jesus Christ:
yeah just look at vienna at bowden for example of dire scars
yeah just look at vienna at bowden for example of dire scars
In reply to philo: I seem to remember Steve Crowe and possibly Andy Earl having a go at some of the scars around Crunchie with some resin, and Vienna got a bit of treatment at one stage.
It doesn't help that some 'locals' who have things like Child's Play wired insist on repeating it ad nauseam for tourists without cleaning their shoes. In addition I've seen well known climbers have a pop at things like Vienna when they are damp and clearly eroding faster than they would when dry.
Some education from the BMC/ MLTUK would be good to see...
It doesn't help that some 'locals' who have things like Child's Play wired insist on repeating it ad nauseam for tourists without cleaning their shoes. In addition I've seen well known climbers have a pop at things like Vienna when they are damp and clearly eroding faster than they would when dry.
Some education from the BMC/ MLTUK would be good to see...
In reply to philo:
not seen vienna for about 8 years.have done it and thought that the foothold wouldnt last much longer
> (In reply to Jesus Christ)
> yeah just look at vienna at bowden for example of dire scars
> yeah just look at vienna at bowden for example of dire scars
not seen vienna for about 8 years.have done it and thought that the foothold wouldnt last much longer
In reply to beastofackworth:
Resin (as in pof) is a big no no on grit, as it clogs up the texture too much, but is much more suited to the Font sandstone.
The 'resin' used at newstones will be some form of epoxy / polyester resin that soaks into the the first few millimeters, bonding the agrigate together rather than forming a new surface like the original afforts at bridestones probably did. From my experience of working with resins in the past the work at New' is very good and is virtually un-identifiable (I had to be told that the work had been done!).
As for closing crags that are damaged is going to be difficult to manange, as invariably people will shun the 'mightier than thou' attitude and climb there regardless. This could be a very workable compromise if the trials are successful.
> (In reply to Mini) hope its better than the last resin incident at bridestones.personally i think if holds get in that state we should just stop climbing on them rather than alter the rock.isnt resin a big no no on grit?
Resin (as in pof) is a big no no on grit, as it clogs up the texture too much, but is much more suited to the Font sandstone.
The 'resin' used at newstones will be some form of epoxy / polyester resin that soaks into the the first few millimeters, bonding the agrigate together rather than forming a new surface like the original afforts at bridestones probably did. From my experience of working with resins in the past the work at New' is very good and is virtually un-identifiable (I had to be told that the work had been done!).
As for closing crags that are damaged is going to be difficult to manange, as invariably people will shun the 'mightier than thou' attitude and climb there regardless. This could be a very workable compromise if the trials are successful.
In reply to Mini: yeah am familiar with pof resin and epoxy,i just think that people slate people for reinforcing the finshing hold ont he joker at stanage but dont mind people doign the same to worn otu holds.think they should just be left
In reply to Guy Keating, BMC:
I'd still like to see a few tests to see how effective it is on cam scars (Topsail being a good start point).
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=54680
On the causes of more rapid low foothold damage, I think its a combination: dirty shoes (sadly often better climbers warming up); the rock staying damper close to the ground and in the shade (partly because climbers are too impatient to let the rock dry properly) and being part of a softer rock band (hence they are often found on starting overlaps which make for good problems).
I'd still like to see a few tests to see how effective it is on cam scars (Topsail being a good start point).
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=54680
On the causes of more rapid low foothold damage, I think its a combination: dirty shoes (sadly often better climbers warming up); the rock staying damper close to the ground and in the shade (partly because climbers are too impatient to let the rock dry properly) and being part of a softer rock band (hence they are often found on starting overlaps which make for good problems).
In reply to whispering nic:
look at the nice foot hold here
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=62672
compared to
http://www.climbonline.co.uk/photogallery/Bowden%20Doors/images/Vienna-Stat...
look at the nice foot hold here
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=62672
compared to
http://www.climbonline.co.uk/photogallery/Bowden%20Doors/images/Vienna-Stat...
In reply to philo: Good example. Really easy to see how much erosion had really taken place there.
In reply to beastofackworth:
This wasn't reinforced, it was glued back on!
So what your saying is ban all climbing on gritstone escarpments and moors, as there are only a few crags I can think of that hasn't had some patina broken through over use.
Or do we just corden off the popular problems with erosion? Try and manage that!
> (In reply to Mini) . . reinforcing the finshing hold ont he joker at stanage . . .
This wasn't reinforced, it was glued back on!
So what your saying is ban all climbing on gritstone escarpments and moors, as there are only a few crags I can think of that hasn't had some patina broken through over use.
Or do we just corden off the popular problems with erosion? Try and manage that!
In reply to Jimmy D:
Here are some photos that show the extent of the damage in the Charlotte Rampling area at Bridestones, and the quality of repairs undertaken.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/58475478@N00/
Here are some photos that show the extent of the damage in the Charlotte Rampling area at Bridestones, and the quality of repairs undertaken.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/58475478@N00/
In reply to Jimmy D:
In the second one in the series, you can see the slight lightening of the rock surface around the scar. This is the only visual inidication that anything has been done. It will be interesting to see how the appearance develops with time/weathering, i.e. whether the light yellowy colour of the scars darkens at all.
In the second one in the series, you can see the slight lightening of the rock surface around the scar. This is the only visual inidication that anything has been done. It will be interesting to see how the appearance develops with time/weathering, i.e. whether the light yellowy colour of the scars darkens at all.
In reply to Jimmy D:
That's so much worse than when I was there last a couple of years ago. I won't go to Bridestones now because there's nothing new I can do there at my current level of ability, and I'm not going to contribute to the erosion by repeating problems. There are problems I want to do there but I won't go back and attempt them until I'm sure I can do them in the minimum of tries. One of the last times I was there I saw a group trying Jerry's Arete, they had no chance of doing it, they couldn't even do the 5c to the right, but it didn't stop them kicking hell out of the start of Jerry's. The same goes for the locals who go there every evening after work, do the same problems over and over, and then blame the erosion on the increased popularity caused by the bouldering guide.
Bridestones needs a bit more respect and special attention than most other venues.
> (In reply to Jimmy D)
>
> Here are some photos that show the extent of the damage in the Charlotte Rampling area at Bridestones, and the quality of repairs undertaken.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/58475478@N00/
>
> Here are some photos that show the extent of the damage in the Charlotte Rampling area at Bridestones, and the quality of repairs undertaken.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/58475478@N00/
That's so much worse than when I was there last a couple of years ago. I won't go to Bridestones now because there's nothing new I can do there at my current level of ability, and I'm not going to contribute to the erosion by repeating problems. There are problems I want to do there but I won't go back and attempt them until I'm sure I can do them in the minimum of tries. One of the last times I was there I saw a group trying Jerry's Arete, they had no chance of doing it, they couldn't even do the 5c to the right, but it didn't stop them kicking hell out of the start of Jerry's. The same goes for the locals who go there every evening after work, do the same problems over and over, and then blame the erosion on the increased popularity caused by the bouldering guide.
Bridestones needs a bit more respect and special attention than most other venues.
In reply to Serpico:
I'm judging from a similiar situation elsewhere but I'm convinced that a few climbers with gritty shoes, however competent, can do more damage in a few tries than hundreds or even thousands who are taking care.
Down on the Southern sandstone there's an overhanging wall which is sheltered from the rain & basically there's someone working out on there every single evening & all weekend & has been since I started climbing there in the late 70s I'd guess nothing elsewhere in the country is as busy not even the snore.
Now for the 1st 20 years there was NO visible change in the holds although the ground level dropped by around a metre. Foothold damage only started to be visible comparatively recently when climbing wall habits (just stepping straight from ground to rock) started to be transferred outside.
I'm judging from a similiar situation elsewhere but I'm convinced that a few climbers with gritty shoes, however competent, can do more damage in a few tries than hundreds or even thousands who are taking care.
Down on the Southern sandstone there's an overhanging wall which is sheltered from the rain & basically there's someone working out on there every single evening & all weekend & has been since I started climbing there in the late 70s I'd guess nothing elsewhere in the country is as busy not even the snore.
Now for the 1st 20 years there was NO visible change in the holds although the ground level dropped by around a metre. Foothold damage only started to be visible comparatively recently when climbing wall habits (just stepping straight from ground to rock) started to be transferred outside.
In reply to Jimmy D: Good work.
If it is the same treatment as Newstones then from my experience it will weather very well. The scars there were of similar colour but have darkened to blend in with the natural hue of the surrounding grit.
Lets hope it works.
If it is the same treatment as Newstones then from my experience it will weather very well. The scars there were of similar colour but have darkened to blend in with the natural hue of the surrounding grit.
Lets hope it works.
In reply to Mini: aye! cos the repairs at the mo stand out like a sore thumb! But at least they are repaired and hopefully as you say if they weather well they will start to blend in.
Thanx for the effort in going out and sorting it ( cant remember who it was without reading whole thread again)
Thanx for the effort in going out and sorting it ( cant remember who it was without reading whole thread again)
In reply to Pauline: ok so let me correct myself... it is not the repair that is blaringly obvious... more the actual scar from the damage... b4 someone jumps on my post
In reply to Serpico:
There is an amazing amount of unpopular bouldering areas available in the North Peak/South Yorkshire area to be exploited. I was thinkng of producing a guide to one of them... but maybe not.
There is an amazing amount of unpopular bouldering areas available in the North Peak/South Yorkshire area to be exploited. I was thinkng of producing a guide to one of them... but maybe not.
In reply to Jimmy D:
God, those photos are unbelievable. It's unbelievable how fast we're trashing the gritstone.
What was that mag quote a while ago?
"It took God a hundred million years to create the crags; surely we can't break them in a century?"
If only we'd realised what a fatuous optimist the author was. It barely takes us a decade.
jcm
God, those photos are unbelievable. It's unbelievable how fast we're trashing the gritstone.
What was that mag quote a while ago?
"It took God a hundred million years to create the crags; surely we can't break them in a century?"
If only we'd realised what a fatuous optimist the author was. It barely takes us a decade.
jcm
In reply to Guy Keating, BMC:
Just to add to the debate, I find myself highly ambivalent about the resin and the arguments for and against have been well rehersed in this forum.
On balance, I think something needed to be done. I was shocked at the weekend when I returned to The kebs after a year away to repeat Jerrys Arete one of my favourite problems. This is a good example of the damage the kebs is taking, particularly to key holds on classic problems. The resin appears glossy and a bit of an eyesore but the grip seemed reasonable in cooler conditions and may prevent the demise of that key foothold. I thought the resinning had been done sympathetically, obviously by someone who does care about the place. I just have two questions:
1. What was the consultation process prior to doing the work and what has ben agreed to prevent it being done indiscrimanetly elsewhere?
2. Will the resin reduce in shine with time and thereby blend more with the rock?
Just to add to the debate, I find myself highly ambivalent about the resin and the arguments for and against have been well rehersed in this forum.
On balance, I think something needed to be done. I was shocked at the weekend when I returned to The kebs after a year away to repeat Jerrys Arete one of my favourite problems. This is a good example of the damage the kebs is taking, particularly to key holds on classic problems. The resin appears glossy and a bit of an eyesore but the grip seemed reasonable in cooler conditions and may prevent the demise of that key foothold. I thought the resinning had been done sympathetically, obviously by someone who does care about the place. I just have two questions:
1. What was the consultation process prior to doing the work and what has ben agreed to prevent it being done indiscrimanetly elsewhere?
2. Will the resin reduce in shine with time and thereby blend more with the rock?
In reply to Mike Stacey:
who actually did the repairs ? and was it genuine.... not just some random dude ?
who actually did the repairs ? and was it genuine.... not just some random dude ?
In reply to pinkie:
The latest repairs were done by Craig Smith who lives nearby. Materials were from the BMC I believe.
Mick
The latest repairs were done by Craig Smith who lives nearby. Materials were from the BMC I believe.
Mick
In reply to Mini:
Do you know when Newstones was done? I wonder what will happen in the medium term - polymer repairs have got an iffy reputation in stone conservation in the building industry- they can cause catastrophic failiure if used wrongly. My understanding is that it is vital the they are flushed to a much greater depth than a few millimeters, and the type & viscosity of the solvent should be chosen based on the stone type.
I think what I'm trying to say is that epxoy stone repair is very difficult & irreverisible. I'd be a bit worried if the BMC are just encoraging anybody to get out there & slap stuff on the crag.
Do you know when Newstones was done? I wonder what will happen in the medium term - polymer repairs have got an iffy reputation in stone conservation in the building industry- they can cause catastrophic failiure if used wrongly. My understanding is that it is vital the they are flushed to a much greater depth than a few millimeters, and the type & viscosity of the solvent should be chosen based on the stone type.
I think what I'm trying to say is that epxoy stone repair is very difficult & irreverisible. I'd be a bit worried if the BMC are just encoraging anybody to get out there & slap stuff on the crag.
In reply to JamesA:
That is not the case.
Climbers love a bit of grit. And it doesn’t come any more popular than the bouldering. Locals return time after time to their favourite circuits, and others travel from as far afield as Australia to sample the legendary friction.
The downside is that a number of the best problems, circuits and even whole areas are now showing signs of overuse.
Q. What's happening out there?
A. The BMC has been monitoring a number of popular areas and the evidence is plain to see - ground erosion, broken holds, polished smears, and the insidious practice of “giving it a good brush”. In some cases wire-brushing has even unbelievably extended into hold sculpture.
Q. What's the BMC doing about it?
A. Well, firstly we continually promote the importance of sustainable good practice based around Simon Panton’s original “10 Commandments”. Namely:
- No chipping whatsoever.No wire or hard nylon brushing.
- Use a soft nylon brush or a cloth very gently.
- Use as little chalk as possible, and only use tick marks when absolutely necessary.
- Gently brush away any excessive build-up of chalk and any tick marks at the end of your session.
- No use of resin (pof).
- No blow torching. If you come across a wet hold, dry it gently with a towel, or come back on a windy day when it will have dried out naturally.
- No gardening of indigenous vegetation.
- Do not leave carpet patches at the crag. Not only are they an eyesore, but they quickly become sodden, and kill off the vegetation that they cover.
Use a bouldering pad to decrease the impact on the base of popular problems.
- Do not drop litter at the crag, and take home any that you find.
Q. Bah. Words. Any practical work?
A. Sure is, the Peak Area volunteers worked with the Park Authority to come up with a solution for the ground erosion occurring below a number of the Stanage Plantation’s problems. This included diverting some standing water and placing fi ne gritstone gravel on patches of the most heavily affected ground. So far the gravel is bedding in nicely and a number of the landings have been significantly improved.
Q. What about damage and polish?
A. Unfortunately, damaged holds are diffi cult to mend and there is currently no viable solution to polish - the net result being that a number of classic test-pieces have become harder over the years.
Q. What about wire brushing damage?
A. Over the past 18 months the BMC has been monitoring the situation at a classic grit bouldering crag, and we have strong evidence that vigorous brushing is still occurring to the point where it could be considered hold sculpture. As most of us know, once the oxidised surface patina of the rock is breached, the newly exposed rock rapidly crumbles to leave ever-expanding, sandy holds. Nice.
Q. How can this be stopped?
A. If you see people wire-brushing then tactfully inform them of the error of their ways. Remember, some climbers may be new to the sport and unaware of the longterm damage they are causing.
Q. Can established damage be addressed?
A. In a word - yes. Over the past 12 months we’ve conducted a small experiment on a set of holds known to have been damaged by wire-brushing and repeated cranking. After photographing the holds in question, we applied a small amount of a French Polish/solvent solution (used so effectively in limiting erosion on Southern Sandstone) to the surface of the holds in question. After the solution permeates into the rock, the solvent evaporates to leave the French Polish entrained within the surface 2-3mm, where it rapidly oxidises to form a hard matrix with the grit particles. We also omitted to treat two holds as an experimental control. As the photo (left) demonstrates, the solution has effectively halted further erosion of the treated holds. Meanwhile the untreated holds showed increases in both diameter and depth.
Q. Any side effects?
A. The holds become slightly darker on application of the solution, but this quickly fades. The treatment also appears to have no discernable effect on either the friction or “crimpyness” of a hold.
Q. Sounds great - what next?
A. It’s over to you. The historical application of this technology on Southern Sandstone has proved that it can be a long–term solution to the problem of eroding holds, and our experiment has demonstrated it also works for the different geochemistry of grit. With full acknowledgement of the associated environmental sensitivities of the problem (and its potential solution), should climbers be considering the wider application of this technology to other damaged problems?
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Should we be starting to treat damaged boulders? Send your comments into guy@thebmc.co.uk
http://thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1446
> (In reply to Mini)
> I'd be a bit worried if the BMC are just encoraging anybody to get out there & slap stuff on the crag.
That is not the case.
Climbers love a bit of grit. And it doesn’t come any more popular than the bouldering. Locals return time after time to their favourite circuits, and others travel from as far afield as Australia to sample the legendary friction.
The downside is that a number of the best problems, circuits and even whole areas are now showing signs of overuse.
Q. What's happening out there?
A. The BMC has been monitoring a number of popular areas and the evidence is plain to see - ground erosion, broken holds, polished smears, and the insidious practice of “giving it a good brush”. In some cases wire-brushing has even unbelievably extended into hold sculpture.
Q. What's the BMC doing about it?
A. Well, firstly we continually promote the importance of sustainable good practice based around Simon Panton’s original “10 Commandments”. Namely:
- No chipping whatsoever.No wire or hard nylon brushing.
- Use a soft nylon brush or a cloth very gently.
- Use as little chalk as possible, and only use tick marks when absolutely necessary.
- Gently brush away any excessive build-up of chalk and any tick marks at the end of your session.
- No use of resin (pof).
- No blow torching. If you come across a wet hold, dry it gently with a towel, or come back on a windy day when it will have dried out naturally.
- No gardening of indigenous vegetation.
- Do not leave carpet patches at the crag. Not only are they an eyesore, but they quickly become sodden, and kill off the vegetation that they cover.
Use a bouldering pad to decrease the impact on the base of popular problems.
- Do not drop litter at the crag, and take home any that you find.
Q. Bah. Words. Any practical work?
A. Sure is, the Peak Area volunteers worked with the Park Authority to come up with a solution for the ground erosion occurring below a number of the Stanage Plantation’s problems. This included diverting some standing water and placing fi ne gritstone gravel on patches of the most heavily affected ground. So far the gravel is bedding in nicely and a number of the landings have been significantly improved.
Q. What about damage and polish?
A. Unfortunately, damaged holds are diffi cult to mend and there is currently no viable solution to polish - the net result being that a number of classic test-pieces have become harder over the years.
Q. What about wire brushing damage?
A. Over the past 18 months the BMC has been monitoring the situation at a classic grit bouldering crag, and we have strong evidence that vigorous brushing is still occurring to the point where it could be considered hold sculpture. As most of us know, once the oxidised surface patina of the rock is breached, the newly exposed rock rapidly crumbles to leave ever-expanding, sandy holds. Nice.
Q. How can this be stopped?
A. If you see people wire-brushing then tactfully inform them of the error of their ways. Remember, some climbers may be new to the sport and unaware of the longterm damage they are causing.
Q. Can established damage be addressed?
A. In a word - yes. Over the past 12 months we’ve conducted a small experiment on a set of holds known to have been damaged by wire-brushing and repeated cranking. After photographing the holds in question, we applied a small amount of a French Polish/solvent solution (used so effectively in limiting erosion on Southern Sandstone) to the surface of the holds in question. After the solution permeates into the rock, the solvent evaporates to leave the French Polish entrained within the surface 2-3mm, where it rapidly oxidises to form a hard matrix with the grit particles. We also omitted to treat two holds as an experimental control. As the photo (left) demonstrates, the solution has effectively halted further erosion of the treated holds. Meanwhile the untreated holds showed increases in both diameter and depth.
Q. Any side effects?
A. The holds become slightly darker on application of the solution, but this quickly fades. The treatment also appears to have no discernable effect on either the friction or “crimpyness” of a hold.
Q. Sounds great - what next?
A. It’s over to you. The historical application of this technology on Southern Sandstone has proved that it can be a long–term solution to the problem of eroding holds, and our experiment has demonstrated it also works for the different geochemistry of grit. With full acknowledgement of the associated environmental sensitivities of the problem (and its potential solution), should climbers be considering the wider application of this technology to other damaged problems?
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Should we be starting to treat damaged boulders? Send your comments into guy@thebmc.co.uk
http://thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1446
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
So they've done a 12 month trial - what happens after 14 or 24 months? And as I said, my understading from using stone hardners is that 2-3mm is nothing like enough - how has the figure of 2-3mm been chosen?
It also sounds like the repairs are being carried out by volunteers? If so, respect to them for making the effort. But as I said, epoxy stone repair is not a DIY type job. It requires a good amount of skill and experience to get it right. So I think my questions are valid.
So they've done a 12 month trial - what happens after 14 or 24 months? And as I said, my understading from using stone hardners is that 2-3mm is nothing like enough - how has the figure of 2-3mm been chosen?
It also sounds like the repairs are being carried out by volunteers? If so, respect to them for making the effort. But as I said, epoxy stone repair is not a DIY type job. It requires a good amount of skill and experience to get it right. So I think my questions are valid.
In reply to JamesA:
If you have any expetise in his field, I'm sure the BMC would be very happy for your advice.
If you have any expetise in his field, I'm sure the BMC would be very happy for your advice.
In reply to Chris Tan Ver. L:
I'm certainly not an expert, but I've used stone hardners and know a bit about them. There is though a lot of research and expertise in the building conservation area which is probably worth tapping into, if they haven't already.
I'm certainly not an expert, but I've used stone hardners and know a bit about them. There is though a lot of research and expertise in the building conservation area which is probably worth tapping into, if they haven't already.
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