This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
I usually tie in with a bowline backed by a stopper (I think the stopper is essential here). When I teach kids, they learn to use a figure 8 on the bight, backed by a stopper. (This seems to be the most common tie in in use today in the UK.) However, my friend, who's relatively new to UK rock climbing but keen on alpinism, tells me that when he used this to tie in, the stopper knot was given a resounding "Non!" by the Chamonix guides.
What do folks think? My view is that the stopper isn't really needed with the figure 8, but it's a good way of ensuring that a long enough tail is left.
What do folks think? My view is that the stopper isn't really needed with the figure 8, but it's a good way of ensuring that a long enough tail is left.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
And on that note the thread should end.
But it won't.
> My view is that the stopper isn't really needed with the figure 8, but it's a good way of ensuring that a long enough tail is left.
And on that note the thread should end.
But it won't.
In reply to Mark Kemball: yeah i noticed the same thing in Finland, i.e. that many people don't seem to use a stopper on a figure of 8, which I found really weird (as thats the way i learnt it here in the UK), but it seemed to work so see no problem with it as long as you know what you're doing..
In reply to Mr Justice Cocklecarrot:
Spoil sport....
It is not necessary to tie off a Fig 8 with a stopper knot.
Clench your fist around the tail - if it just sticks out the end its perfect if you can't see the tip its too short.
> (In reply to Mark Kemball)
>
> [...]
>
> And on that note the thread should end.
>
> But it won't.
>
>
>
> [...]
>
> And on that note the thread should end.
>
> But it won't.
>
>
Spoil sport....
It is not necessary to tie off a Fig 8 with a stopper knot.
Clench your fist around the tail - if it just sticks out the end its perfect if you can't see the tip its too short.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
I suppose it is a safety back up, but not one which is likely to come into play. What you say about making sure there is enough tail is true i suppose.
I tend to use a stopper but that's down to having to use a set system with the MR belays etc, so it's not worth having one habit for climbing and another for training/jobs.
Having said that, if i'm feeling particuarly lazy, i just tie an overhand knot rather than the whole fisherman's tie thing. Personal climbing that is, never on team duty.
I suppose it is a safety back up, but not one which is likely to come into play. What you say about making sure there is enough tail is true i suppose.
I tend to use a stopper but that's down to having to use a set system with the MR belays etc, so it's not worth having one habit for climbing and another for training/jobs.
Having said that, if i'm feeling particuarly lazy, i just tie an overhand knot rather than the whole fisherman's tie thing. Personal climbing that is, never on team duty.
In reply to nz Cragrat:
Oh, go on then!
What if you've got very very very tiny hands? Eh?
> (In reply to Mr Justice Cocklecarrot)
> [...]
>
> Spoil sport....
> [...]
>
> Spoil sport....
Oh, go on then!
> Clench your fist around the tail - if it just sticks out the end its perfect if you can't see the tip its too short.
What if you've got very very very tiny hands? Eh?
In reply to Mr Justice Cocklecarrot:
You will have a very very very tiny rope of course .....and finger cracks will be chimneys
You will have a very very very tiny rope of course .....and finger cracks will be chimneys
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Yup, pretty much my view on it too.
> What do folks think? My view is that the stopper isn't really needed with the figure 8, but it's a good way of ensuring that a long enough tail is left.
Yup, pretty much my view on it too.
In reply to Mark Kemball: Always a good idea, miles more impotrtant than the earlier thread about the prussik back up.
In reply to Al Evans: most of the time i only have a stopper know to get rid of the tail so i dont stand on it when high stepping but end of the day it takes 5 seconds extra to tie a stopper knot so why not do it?
In reply to Mark Kemball:
I was told that the stopper is purely if you've got too much rope left, as if you've tied a correct figure 8 then the rope would break before it came undone.
I was told that the stopper is purely if you've got too much rope left, as if you've tied a correct figure 8 then the rope would break before it came undone.
In reply to Mark Kemball: A more interesting answer would be why the French guides tell people not to use it.
In reply to yan:
That is pretty much right
> (In reply to Mark Kemball)
>
> I was told that the stopper is purely if you've got too much rope left, as if you've tied a correct figure 8 then the rope would break before it came undone.
>
> I was told that the stopper is purely if you've got too much rope left, as if you've tied a correct figure 8 then the rope would break before it came undone.
That is pretty much right
In reply to mike swann:
Definitely. I can understand people not using it, but not a distinct opposition to its use.
Definitely. I can understand people not using it, but not a distinct opposition to its use.
In reply to mike swann:
Exactly! Two thoughts: Everything for speed - tying the stopper takes an extra few seconds. Or the possibility of erroneously clipping your screwgate attaching you to the belay into the loop between the 8 and the stopper (which is why the stopper should be snug up against the 8).
> (In reply to Mark Kemball) A more interesting answer would be why the French guides tell people not to use it.
Exactly! Two thoughts: Everything for speed - tying the stopper takes an extra few seconds. Or the possibility of erroneously clipping your screwgate attaching you to the belay into the loop between the 8 and the stopper (which is why the stopper should be snug up against the 8).
In reply to nz Cragrat: do you need a stopper knot if you tie a fig 9. Why dont we all tie fig 9's if they are easier to undo lastly if a fig 9 does everything a fig 8 does but better why do we bother with a fig 8?
Lastly what logic is there behind Al's assumption that if you use a prusik then you are more likely to need one? Anyone have any statistical evidence to back that up? I would have thought it was more if you needed a prusik and hadnt tied one your in the shit.
Lastly what logic is there behind Al's assumption that if you use a prusik then you are more likely to need one? Anyone have any statistical evidence to back that up? I would have thought it was more if you needed a prusik and hadnt tied one your in the shit.
In reply to Fawksey:
I am not sure where his rationale is.
I first (other than in glaciaer travel) realised the usefulness of them when I fell off seconding a very steep thing and was free hanging a long way from the rock and well over a rope-length from the ground and my belayer was whingeing.
I am not sure where his rationale is.
I first (other than in glaciaer travel) realised the usefulness of them when I fell off seconding a very steep thing and was free hanging a long way from the rock and well over a rope-length from the ground and my belayer was whingeing.
In reply to nz Cragrat:
I believe Al was trying to say that a stopper on a fig-8 tie-in is more important than a prusik backup on an abseil. If that was the point he was trying to make then my opinion is almost the complete opposite of his. That said, I do always add a fig-8 stopper to my tie-in because (a) it's habit and (b) it avoids having people (eg wall staff) pick you up on it.
> (In reply to Fawksey)
>
> I am not sure where his rationale is.
>
> I am not sure where his rationale is.
I believe Al was trying to say that a stopper on a fig-8 tie-in is more important than a prusik backup on an abseil. If that was the point he was trying to make then my opinion is almost the complete opposite of his. That said, I do always add a fig-8 stopper to my tie-in because (a) it's habit and (b) it avoids having people (eg wall staff) pick you up on it.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Strange one, (usualy tie in with a bow line) but if using a figure of 8, even top-roping at the climbing wall I always tie a stopper knot.
However I use a figure of 8 (or mostly figure of 9) at work most days for rigging - rope access and have never use a stopper knot. Think it must be ony when I tie into a harness for some reason!
Strange one, (usualy tie in with a bow line) but if using a figure of 8, even top-roping at the climbing wall I always tie a stopper knot.
However I use a figure of 8 (or mostly figure of 9) at work most days for rigging - rope access and have never use a stopper knot. Think it must be ony when I tie into a harness for some reason!
In reply to Mark Kemball:
I was taught that the reason its not common in Europe is the risk of rescue teams clipping any loop (caused by a poorly tied stopper obv.) to connect them to you, then hacking through your rope. The stopper would then slide off.
Slightly worrying that they may not notice clipping the incorrect part of the rope before hacking away your rope but tension and urgency lead to mistakes...
> (In reply to mike swann)
> [...]
>
> Or the possibility of erroneously clipping your screwgate attaching you to the belay into the loop between the 8 and the stopper (which is why the stopper should be snug up against the 8).
> [...]
>
> Or the possibility of erroneously clipping your screwgate attaching you to the belay into the loop between the 8 and the stopper (which is why the stopper should be snug up against the 8).
I was taught that the reason its not common in Europe is the risk of rescue teams clipping any loop (caused by a poorly tied stopper obv.) to connect them to you, then hacking through your rope. The stopper would then slide off.
Slightly worrying that they may not notice clipping the incorrect part of the rope before hacking away your rope but tension and urgency lead to mistakes...
In reply to Mark Kemball:
To add my tupence worth...
A stopper knot on a fig 8 is completely superfluous.
Whilst on a Bowline is absolutely essential and is ideally tied as a 'half of a double fisherman' but must be cinched up against the bowline.
To add my tupence worth...
A stopper knot on a fig 8 is completely superfluous.
Whilst on a Bowline is absolutely essential and is ideally tied as a 'half of a double fisherman' but must be cinched up against the bowline.
In reply to Mark Kemball: really stupid and not particularly rellevent quastion i know, but whats a fig. of 9??
xx
xx
In reply to confusicating: if you google it you'll get an exact description but its very similar to a 8 but is very easy to untie after loading. Used in rope access a lot
In reply to Mark Kemball:
I loop the loose end over and back through the knot before tightening it. Keeps it all nice and tidy for easy clipping. Never been a problem and I fall off, a lot.
I loop the loose end over and back through the knot before tightening it. Keeps it all nice and tidy for easy clipping. Never been a problem and I fall off, a lot.
In reply to Mark Kemball: Not my opinion, but I was under the belief that, although highly unlikely there is a possibility with a fig 8 that without a stopper it can roll down the rope and come undone. Am sure I read a link about tests done in a thread like this a while back.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Agreed.
Agreed.
jk
> I usually tie in with a bowline backed by a stopper (I think the stopper is essential here).
Agreed.
> What do folks think? My view is that the stopper isn't really needed with the figure 8, but it's a good way of ensuring that a long enough tail is left.
Agreed.
jk
In reply to Monkeyrock:
no you are thnking of using fo8 to join two ropes for abseiling
(or to form a loop where both strands are loaded eg ab tat)
the link is on needlesports and let's not start that one all over again.
no you are thnking of using fo8 to join two ropes for abseiling
(or to form a loop where both strands are loaded eg ab tat)
the link is on needlesports and let's not start that one all over again.
In reply to lithos: Precisely: when used to join ab ropes the knot is loaded in a totally different way compared to what happens when it's used for tying-in so those failure modes are not relevant.
In reply to Monkeyrock:
An unlikely but still valid failure mechanism.
However, even the worse ever tied fig-8 in a badly set-up and non-equalised up belay, heavily crossed loaded, with two very well-built seconds bouncing on the rope is only likely to roll once as the load required for each subsequent 'roll' increases well beyond the static loads produced in belaying. Additionally, it would be blindingly obvious to any belayer what was happening.
Therefore even in this highly improbably scenario a long tail would make it safe enough.
It all goes back to the OP's post, the stopper knot just 'stops' people having too short a tail.
HTH
> (In reply to Mark Kemball) Not my opinion, but I was under the belief that, although highly unlikely there is a possibility with a fig 8 that without a stopper it can roll down the rope and come undone.
An unlikely but still valid failure mechanism.
However, even the worse ever tied fig-8 in a badly set-up and non-equalised up belay, heavily crossed loaded, with two very well-built seconds bouncing on the rope is only likely to roll once as the load required for each subsequent 'roll' increases well beyond the static loads produced in belaying. Additionally, it would be blindingly obvious to any belayer what was happening.
Therefore even in this highly improbably scenario a long tail would make it safe enough.
It all goes back to the OP's post, the stopper knot just 'stops' people having too short a tail.
HTH
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
I can only wonder at what someone who insists on stopper knots on fig8s thinks to an overhand knot joining ropes for abseil...
I can only wonder at what someone who insists on stopper knots on fig8s thinks to an overhand knot joining ropes for abseil...
In reply to Al Evans:
Just goes to show that years of climbing experience don't necessarily equate to good understanding of ropework!
I can agree that use or otherwise of a prusik (Wun Ess!!!) is down to individial preference, but you and Bruce are way off mark if you think that in general it increases the danger of an accident.
However, the idea that tying a stopper in a fig 8 knot is more likely to increase safety than backing up an abseil with a prusik is daft. If the knot was a bowline, I'd agree 100%, but if the tail on the 8 is long enough, the stopper's superfluous.
Personally, I use an Edwards bowline most of the time, without a stopper, so it's academic to me.
> (In reply to Mark Kemball) Always a good idea, miles more impotrtant than the earlier thread about the prussik back up.
Just goes to show that years of climbing experience don't necessarily equate to good understanding of ropework!
I can agree that use or otherwise of a prusik (Wun Ess!!!) is down to individial preference, but you and Bruce are way off mark if you think that in general it increases the danger of an accident.
However, the idea that tying a stopper in a fig 8 knot is more likely to increase safety than backing up an abseil with a prusik is daft. If the knot was a bowline, I'd agree 100%, but if the tail on the 8 is long enough, the stopper's superfluous.
Personally, I use an Edwards bowline most of the time, without a stopper, so it's academic to me.
In reply to yan:
If you've tied the knot correctly you won't have "too much rope left"
> (In reply to Mark Kemball)
>
> I was told that the stopper is purely if you've got too much rope left, as if you've tied a correct figure 8 then the rope would break before it came undone.
>
> I was told that the stopper is purely if you've got too much rope left, as if you've tied a correct figure 8 then the rope would break before it came undone.
If you've tied the knot correctly you won't have "too much rope left"
In reply to Mark Kemball: So where did the stopper on a fig 8 come from, was it really just to clean up the extra rope, and why do just about all climbing walls insist on there use? (again I dont think they are nessessary myself, just wondering where the habit came from originally)
In reply to Monkeyrock:
I would think this is all about making it as easy as possible to keep an eye on loads of strangers, whose competence has to be taken on trust. You don't have to look too closely to see if the knot is safe because a stopper is easy to see and will back up an incorrectly tied primary knot.
> why do just about all climbing walls insist on there use?
I would think this is all about making it as easy as possible to keep an eye on loads of strangers, whose competence has to be taken on trust. You don't have to look too closely to see if the knot is safe because a stopper is easy to see and will back up an incorrectly tied primary knot.
In reply to Mark Kemball: I remember reading somewhere that you shouldn't over tighten the figure 8 when tying youself in as the knot tightening in the event of a fall provides extra shock absorption. Perhaps a stopper might interfere with this, although I can't see this potential tightening absorping much shock in comparsion to the dynamic rope it's tied with? Anybody know better?
In reply to mickyconnor:
The stopper knot will play no part and it is all negligible, in the grand scheme of energy absorbtion, whether the knot is really tight or just firm.
The stopper knot will play no part and it is all negligible, in the grand scheme of energy absorbtion, whether the knot is really tight or just firm.
In reply to lloyd f:
I agree. If you have "too much rope left", tie it again.
Stopper knots only come untied and hit you in the face (when seconding) anyway...
I agree. If you have "too much rope left", tie it again.
Stopper knots only come untied and hit you in the face (when seconding) anyway...
In reply to Monkeyrock:
just wondering where the habit came from originally)
An historical anomaly because people used to tie on with bowlines (and as already stated this must have a 'proper stopper') before fig8 became popular. Old habits hard to break!
just wondering where the habit came from originally)
An historical anomaly because people used to tie on with bowlines (and as already stated this must have a 'proper stopper') before fig8 became popular. Old habits hard to break!
In reply to Hammy: I will throw myself on everyones mercy and fess up to putting a stopper knot after my fig 8 cos its what I was shown when I was new. Ive never considered if it was necessary or not
In reply to Fawksey: yerr i was shown to do tht too do it sumtimes don't others i can see tht it is highly unlikely ht my figure of 8 will un-do aand sumtimes i dont ahv enought rope to do a stopper not in the end!!
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Personally I think the 'stopper' as it is commonly tied with a fig 8 is actually a bad idea. When it is not snug against the knot (and it often isn't) it forms a subsidiary loop between the stopper and the 8 which is a liability (you really wouldn't want to accidently clip a runner into it or worse clip your belay plate to it).
I do tend to tie in with a fig 8 for trad leads (old habits) but much prefer to thread the loose end back through the knot so it comes out on the harness side well out the way.
Personally I think the 'stopper' as it is commonly tied with a fig 8 is actually a bad idea. When it is not snug against the knot (and it often isn't) it forms a subsidiary loop between the stopper and the 8 which is a liability (you really wouldn't want to accidently clip a runner into it or worse clip your belay plate to it).
I do tend to tie in with a fig 8 for trad leads (old habits) but much prefer to thread the loose end back through the knot so it comes out on the harness side well out the way.
In reply to GrahamD:
Yeah - that's what I do too. It's safer than a stopper knot also. Not sure what the name of it is - something like a 'fig of 8 extra' or a 'fig of 8 yosemite'?
Makes untying a loaded knot easier too.
> I do tend to tie in with a fig 8 for trad leads (old habits) but much prefer to thread the loose end back through the knot so it comes out on the harness side well out the way.
Yeah - that's what I do too. It's safer than a stopper knot also. Not sure what the name of it is - something like a 'fig of 8 extra' or a 'fig of 8 yosemite'?
Makes untying a loaded knot easier too.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
When you tie a stopper on the bowline, you show an understanding of how the knot works and also fails. All bowline's should have a stopper butted up against the knot. Good pratice.
With the Fig of 8, a stopper is not needed, all that is require is that the knot is well dressed (neat), pulled tight and has a tail aprx. 8in. This also show you have a good understanding of how the knot works and fails. If a stopper is used witha Fig of 8, for instance, the tail is to long and a stopper will solve the problem quicker than re-tying. Then the stopper must be butted up tightly against the Fig of 8 to avoid the secondary loop been formed.
When you tie a stopper on the bowline, you show an understanding of how the knot works and also fails. All bowline's should have a stopper butted up against the knot. Good pratice.
With the Fig of 8, a stopper is not needed, all that is require is that the knot is well dressed (neat), pulled tight and has a tail aprx. 8in. This also show you have a good understanding of how the knot works and fails. If a stopper is used witha Fig of 8, for instance, the tail is to long and a stopper will solve the problem quicker than re-tying. Then the stopper must be butted up tightly against the Fig of 8 to avoid the secondary loop been formed.
In reply to Tris:
You have to be careful with that technique, as it actually doesn't allow the fig of 8 to be correctly tensioned. Which has resulted in the fig of 8 failure.
You have to be careful with that technique, as it actually doesn't allow the fig of 8 to be correctly tensioned. Which has resulted in the fig of 8 failure.
In reply to mike swann:
or indeed (to slightly hijack thread) why they hold their axe with pick forward on easy ground when we usually hold it pick back'rds
> (In reply to Mark Kemball) A more interesting answer would be why the French guides tell people not to use it.
or indeed (to slightly hijack thread) why they hold their axe with pick forward on easy ground when we usually hold it pick back'rds
In reply to panad:
I've seen plenty of horrible so called stopper knots over the years. Badly tied and too long, not butted against the fig 8 etc. Useless in fact. Normally I don't use one as long as the 8 is neatly tied with enough tail it's okay. Watching other peoples stopper with interest over the course of a multipitch I've noticed with the movement of the rope stoppers tend to work loose anyway. Anyone seen a stopperless fig 8 undo its self under load?
I've seen plenty of horrible so called stopper knots over the years. Badly tied and too long, not butted against the fig 8 etc. Useless in fact. Normally I don't use one as long as the 8 is neatly tied with enough tail it's okay. Watching other peoples stopper with interest over the course of a multipitch I've noticed with the movement of the rope stoppers tend to work loose anyway. Anyone seen a stopperless fig 8 undo its self under load?
In reply to GrahamD:
The only reports of fig 8 knots failing as i am aware, is when it has been pulled apart, ie if used to join two ropes to abseil on (poor pratice). This results in the knot rolling and rolling along the spare tails untill..
The only reports of fig 8 knots failing as i am aware, is when it has been pulled apart, ie if used to join two ropes to abseil on (poor pratice). This results in the knot rolling and rolling along the spare tails untill..
In reply to panad:
See here:
http://www.climerware.com/f8x.shtml
Seems to be published in a climbing book of knots?
> (In reply to Tris)
>
> You have to be careful with that technique, as it actually doesn't allow the fig of 8 to be correctly tensioned. Which has resulted in the fig of 8 failure.
>
> You have to be careful with that technique, as it actually doesn't allow the fig of 8 to be correctly tensioned. Which has resulted in the fig of 8 failure.
See here:
http://www.climerware.com/f8x.shtml
Seems to be published in a climbing book of knots?
In reply to panad:
I'm interested in where you got the information that there has been at least one case of a fig 8 failing when the end has been rethreaded through the knot (correctly tied, obviously). If its documented somewhere, I'll change my habits but I suspect its just one of those exagerations put about by people who don't actually do it this way.
I'm interested in where you got the information that there has been at least one case of a fig 8 failing when the end has been rethreaded through the knot (correctly tied, obviously). If its documented somewhere, I'll change my habits but I suspect its just one of those exagerations put about by people who don't actually do it this way.
In reply to GrahamD: At the Ice Factor I have seen one incident of a figure 8 with the tail end INCORRECTLY rethreaded. This was spotted by a curious floorwalker who demonstrated that when the end was pulled the knot fell apart. The climber involved had been climbing indoors and outdoors for several years and claimed never to have made this mistake before. Al
In reply to AlH:
That sounds like rubbish to me. I don't understand how the re-threading of the tail will make any difference to the fig of 8 if the fig of 8 was threaded correctly to start with. The tail is superfluous.
Please prove me wrong as I use this method all the time and if you can make the fig of 8 fall apart this easily, then I will change my practice...
> This was spotted by a curious floorwalker who demonstrated that when the end was pulled the knot fell apart.
That sounds like rubbish to me. I don't understand how the re-threading of the tail will make any difference to the fig of 8 if the fig of 8 was threaded correctly to start with. The tail is superfluous.
Please prove me wrong as I use this method all the time and if you can make the fig of 8 fall apart this easily, then I will change my practice...
In reply to Tris:Hi Tris, to clarify; if you rethread your figure of 8 normally and then take the end around the front of the live rope (in stead of correctly around the back) you are able to pull the end back out of the top loop of the 8 because it is not around anything. This does not cause the entire knot to collapse but leaves you with a rethreaded figure of 8 without the last pass through the final loop. What you have done effectively is put the end through the final loop of the 8 and then straight back again leaving a small bight poked through instead of the end.
Please note I'm not 'against' the method I merely pass on the information in response to GrahamDs post asking for any documented record of 8s failing. In this case it did not fail but I feel it left a partial knot which is obviously less than ideal and so worth mentioning.
For what its worth the climber in question had used the method 100s of times before with no problems and had made a mistake, the same as he could have tying a bowline or a fig 8 with stopper. For me it comes down to which method I feel is more/less likely to result in ME making a mistake. Its not 'right' or 'wrong' its my choice and decision, specific to me, and part of me taking responsibility for my actions as always in climbing.
Al
Please note I'm not 'against' the method I merely pass on the information in response to GrahamDs post asking for any documented record of 8s failing. In this case it did not fail but I feel it left a partial knot which is obviously less than ideal and so worth mentioning.
For what its worth the climber in question had used the method 100s of times before with no problems and had made a mistake, the same as he could have tying a bowline or a fig 8 with stopper. For me it comes down to which method I feel is more/less likely to result in ME making a mistake. Its not 'right' or 'wrong' its my choice and decision, specific to me, and part of me taking responsibility for my actions as always in climbing.
Al
In reply to AlH:
Yes its easy to see how it goes wrong if you pass the end back through the same loop of knot. I can't see how it can go wrong otherwise. Cheers.
Yes its easy to see how it goes wrong if you pass the end back through the same loop of knot. I can't see how it can go wrong otherwise. Cheers.
In reply to panad:
Agree with the first statement but 8" is unnecessarily long
> (In reply to Mark Kemball)
>
>>
> With the Fig of 8, a stopper is not needed, all that is require is that the knot is well dressed (neat), pulled tight and has a tail aprx. 8in.
Agree with the first statement but 8" is unnecessarily long
In reply to AlH: Ok - thanks Al... I see what you are saying, but you would have to be seriously not concentrating on what you are doing to do that as you are effectively un-tying part of the knot.
I was worried that the fig of 8 extra was prone to falling apart when tied correctly, but that is obviously not the case.
What I guess I'm saying is that ANY knot which is not tied correctly is not going to be as safe and may result in failure.
I would still like to know about the fig of 8 failure that Panad mentions above?
I was worried that the fig of 8 extra was prone to falling apart when tied correctly, but that is obviously not the case.
What I guess I'm saying is that ANY knot which is not tied correctly is not going to be as safe and may result in failure.
I would still like to know about the fig of 8 failure that Panad mentions above?
In reply to Tris:
Sounds a bit like a "friend of a friend" or a "bloke in the pub told me" sort of story still, if there is any truth in it I've got a very significant vested interest in knowing it !
Sounds a bit like a "friend of a friend" or a "bloke in the pub told me" sort of story still, if there is any truth in it I've got a very significant vested interest in knowing it !
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Loading Notifications...