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Is anyone else put off buying Prana by their support for wind power?
Can't abide the seemingly endless rows of wind turbines which now blight what ought to be some of the loveliest landscapes.
No more Prana trousers for me.
Can't abide the seemingly endless rows of wind turbines which now blight what ought to be some of the loveliest landscapes.
No more Prana trousers for me.
In reply to AdrianC: sorry but that is enviro mental. i saw those and thought the same at first. however i would rather a manufacturer champion sustainable manufacting rather than heading to sweatshops in asia with no thought to their impact. My two penneth
In reply to woolsack: But what is "sustainable" about wind power? Where are we going to put them once the Lakes, Wales, Scotland and Pennines are all covered?
And aside from that I'm just flabbergasted that Prana think there's some advertising value in championing an energy source that so many outdoors people are up in arms about.
And aside from that I'm just flabbergasted that Prana think there's some advertising value in championing an energy source that so many outdoors people are up in arms about.
In reply to AdrianC: i think that they should be congratulated. "so many outdoor people" are up in arms about wind turbines, apparently. these same outdoor people most likely waste an enormous amount of fuel and electricity each year, by driving when they could walk or cycle, boiling a full kettle for a single brew, taking many short and long haul flights...ad infinitum. after enjoying this freedom to "do what thou will", there come consequences. wind power is not *the* solution, but it's part of it. you don't want them? stop wasting energy (although it's probably a bit late for that now).
cheerio!
cheerio!
In reply to martin k: I'll congratulate them (and maybe buy their gear again) when they're the ones giving out that message about consuming less.
In reply to AdrianC: is there a danger of running out of wind? I hadnt heard. Im not saying giant tax subsidy fiddling wind farms are our energy problems solved but wind power in principle is the way forward with of course wave tidal and solar. Problem is how these first efforts have worked out. Micro generation is preferable but people need to address their attitude and usage first
In reply to AdrianC:
nobody who wants you to buy their (rather overpriced) exercise gear, imported from overseas, is going to give out a message about consuming less as it's all a bit counterproductive to their aim of flogging stuff, no?
For me, I'd be more interested if they were shouting about promoting, say, the '1% for the planet' scheme that the likes of Patagonia and Howies support. Maybe Prana also support that, i don't know. I agree that windfarms are contentious and thus form a very curious base to an advertising strategy.
nobody who wants you to buy their (rather overpriced) exercise gear, imported from overseas, is going to give out a message about consuming less as it's all a bit counterproductive to their aim of flogging stuff, no?
For me, I'd be more interested if they were shouting about promoting, say, the '1% for the planet' scheme that the likes of Patagonia and Howies support. Maybe Prana also support that, i don't know. I agree that windfarms are contentious and thus form a very curious base to an advertising strategy.
In reply to woolsack: So exponential population growth and increasing per capita energy usage can be sustained by wind power?
In reply to CJD: But why base an ad on a highly contentious and visible (especially to us outdoorsy-folk) symbol of increasing electricity consumption. It just seems bizarre to me. Do they think we can't figure this stuff out?
In reply to AdrianC:
one one level it can be seen as a symbol of increasing consumption, on another level (whether rightly or wrongly), it can be seen as an attempt to use natural power to do 'less harm to the environment'. Yes, i know this argument is deeply flawed, but remember this is marketing folk we're talking about...
remember that marketing folk brought us bottled water and we now consume it by the reservoir-full. There's some great quote somewhere from the head of Perrier, basically pissing himself laughing that the public fell for it. Yes, there are some savvy people out there who won't buy into this, but there are also folk who see 'environmental' and 'clothing' and think "marvellous, i'm doing my bit."
anyway, there's a way bigger issue with the textiles industry being one of the world's biggest polluters. Prana are known for making organic clothing, iirc, and if they started to shout about natural dyes then *that* would be interesting.
I think, ultimately, that they're doing a bit of idiot-level marketing that will, undeniably, get the buy-in of a lot of the market. Remember that a lot of people don't wear outdoor clothes for outdoor activity, they buy it for 'lifestyle-alliance' reasons. Integrity isn't really a factor.
one one level it can be seen as a symbol of increasing consumption, on another level (whether rightly or wrongly), it can be seen as an attempt to use natural power to do 'less harm to the environment'. Yes, i know this argument is deeply flawed, but remember this is marketing folk we're talking about...
remember that marketing folk brought us bottled water and we now consume it by the reservoir-full. There's some great quote somewhere from the head of Perrier, basically pissing himself laughing that the public fell for it. Yes, there are some savvy people out there who won't buy into this, but there are also folk who see 'environmental' and 'clothing' and think "marvellous, i'm doing my bit."
anyway, there's a way bigger issue with the textiles industry being one of the world's biggest polluters. Prana are known for making organic clothing, iirc, and if they started to shout about natural dyes then *that* would be interesting.
I think, ultimately, that they're doing a bit of idiot-level marketing that will, undeniably, get the buy-in of a lot of the market. Remember that a lot of people don't wear outdoor clothes for outdoor activity, they buy it for 'lifestyle-alliance' reasons. Integrity isn't really a factor.
In reply to AdrianC: wind turbines are better looking than any british landscape in my opinion. don't you think they look nice?
In reply to Franco cookson: Clearly our friends at Prana think they look great. There's even one of the infernal things on their homepage ffs.
I'm even beginning to think they believe this stuff.
I'm even beginning to think they believe this stuff.
In reply to AdrianC:
there seem to be quite a few plans in the pipeline for more wind farms in the north sea, are they a blight on the landscape or a more amenable option?
considering the obvious that the sea is for all intents and purposes flat does it not stand to reason that there will be a more consistent current of air to drive these turbines?
to me it would make more sense to construct these wind farms out to sea, but then again would not the marine environment people have something to say about them as we have with them being built on the land?
Where ever they are built i'm sure the future of our environment far out-weigh the aesthetic costs to us?
just a thought.
there seem to be quite a few plans in the pipeline for more wind farms in the north sea, are they a blight on the landscape or a more amenable option?
considering the obvious that the sea is for all intents and purposes flat does it not stand to reason that there will be a more consistent current of air to drive these turbines?
to me it would make more sense to construct these wind farms out to sea, but then again would not the marine environment people have something to say about them as we have with them being built on the land?
Where ever they are built i'm sure the future of our environment far out-weigh the aesthetic costs to us?
just a thought.
In reply to Martin Rogers:
i think that the main problem with wind farms isn't so much the aesthetic concern, after all, we've 'manufactured' a lot of our upland landscapes with deforestation etc, but that windfarms aren't a very energy efficient way to harvest, er, energy. They use more energy in their manufacture than they can harvest in something like 15 years.
i think that the main problem with wind farms isn't so much the aesthetic concern, after all, we've 'manufactured' a lot of our upland landscapes with deforestation etc, but that windfarms aren't a very energy efficient way to harvest, er, energy. They use more energy in their manufacture than they can harvest in something like 15 years.
In reply to CJD: I do actually believe what i say, but it sort of turned in to a troll.lol. still though wudn't you prefur there to be a few wind turbines sround rather than the mountains to be under the rising sea?
In reply to CJD:
Has anyone thought about wave power in any of these threads? should we not start to use the damage we've caused the environment to our and mother natures advantage?
the phrase 'two birds with one stone' springs to mind
Has anyone thought about wave power in any of these threads? should we not start to use the damage we've caused the environment to our and mother natures advantage?
the phrase 'two birds with one stone' springs to mind
In reply to Franco cookson:
personally (and I know it's a view a lot of people don't agree with) I rather like wind turbines, aesthetically.
personally (and I know it's a view a lot of people don't agree with) I rather like wind turbines, aesthetically.
In reply to Martin Rogers:
oh definitely, it makes total sense. i think Adrian's issue was with an 'outdoor' (or thereabouts) clothing company rather crudely aligning themselves with a very obvious, yet flawed, symbol of envirnomental awareness.
oh definitely, it makes total sense. i think Adrian's issue was with an 'outdoor' (or thereabouts) clothing company rather crudely aligning themselves with a very obvious, yet flawed, symbol of envirnomental awareness.
In reply to CJD:
Have you got a link for this?
Thought the energy balance of wind turbines was more like 6 months or less.
> They use more energy in their manufacture than they can harvest in something like 15 years.
Have you got a link for this?
Thought the energy balance of wind turbines was more like 6 months or less.
In reply to CJD:
and the energy produced from the ocean could it not be used in the manufacture of these wind turbines?
There is a process here of steadily and feasibly moving away from fossil fuels and imo we could make the move a lot sooner than any government would have us believe.
all the while we are commenting about prana supporting wind turbines, they're hardly likely to support wave power now are they? maybe they see that as a job for the manufacturers of watersports clothing?
and the energy produced from the ocean could it not be used in the manufacture of these wind turbines?
There is a process here of steadily and feasibly moving away from fossil fuels and imo we could make the move a lot sooner than any government would have us believe.
all the while we are commenting about prana supporting wind turbines, they're hardly likely to support wave power now are they? maybe they see that as a job for the manufacturers of watersports clothing?
In reply to ebygomm:
from this, which is from the wind turbine trade association, it seems you're right: http://www.bwea.com/energy/myths.html
from this, which is from the wind turbine trade association, it seems you're right: http://www.bwea.com/energy/myths.html
In reply to Martin Rogers:
why wind turbines and not wave power? if they're just wanting to align themselves with 'sustainability' then what's the difference?
I still maintain that as a clothing manufacturer they should more logically be shouting about non-polluting textiles...
why wind turbines and not wave power? if they're just wanting to align themselves with 'sustainability' then what's the difference?
I still maintain that as a clothing manufacturer they should more logically be shouting about non-polluting textiles...
In reply to CJD:
If what your saying is true, and what others have said about Nuclear powerplants also using more when build than when they are active is also true.
Then all we have to do to stop the energy crisis, is to stop building any new Powerplants, Windmills etc as that should suddenly create a surplus of energy.
If what your saying is true, and what others have said about Nuclear powerplants also using more when build than when they are active is also true.
Then all we have to do to stop the energy crisis, is to stop building any new Powerplants, Windmills etc as that should suddenly create a surplus of energy.
In reply to Mokkel:
lol! I've just trundled off to find some information to disprove my initial theory!
lol! I've just trundled off to find some information to disprove my initial theory!
In reply to CJD: iy, glad to hear it. i always thought i was alone on this view. I don't know why people hate them so much. Wouldn't you prefur a wind turbine to seeing a nuclear power plant?
In reply to CJD:
why not both, can wind turbines not be planted on top of the wave farms? creating more power for the national grid in turn creating a speedier move from fossil fuels, if they got their A into gear then we could see cascade effect moving away from fossil fuels in turn creating a better environment for the likes of prana to harvest more natural dyes etc from the greater natural resources that there will be
why not both, can wind turbines not be planted on top of the wave farms? creating more power for the national grid in turn creating a speedier move from fossil fuels, if they got their A into gear then we could see cascade effect moving away from fossil fuels in turn creating a better environment for the likes of prana to harvest more natural dyes etc from the greater natural resources that there will be
In reply to AdrianC:
Do you have a link to the proposals to "cover" Wales, Scotland and Lake District? Should I be cmapaigning for England to be covered too?
> (In reply to woolsack) But what is "sustainable" about wind power? Where are we going to put them once the Lakes, Wales, Scotland and Pennines are all covered?
>
> And aside from that I'm just flabbergasted that Prana think there's some advertising value in championing an energy source that so many outdoors people are up in arms about.
>
> And aside from that I'm just flabbergasted that Prana think there's some advertising value in championing an energy source that so many outdoors people are up in arms about.
Do you have a link to the proposals to "cover" Wales, Scotland and Lake District? Should I be cmapaigning for England to be covered too?
In reply to AdrianC:
I thought prana were an american country - unlikey they have anything to do with wind turbines in the lakes, scotland or wales...
Are you against any turbine anywhere? I suspect in the US its a very different issue to the one it is in this more space conscious isle.
> (In reply to woolsack) But what is "sustainable" about wind power? Where are we going to put them once the Lakes, Wales, Scotland and Pennines are all covered?
>
> And aside from that I'm just flabbergasted that Prana think there's some advertising value in championing an energy source that so many outdoors people are up in arms about.
>
> And aside from that I'm just flabbergasted that Prana think there's some advertising value in championing an energy source that so many outdoors people are up in arms about.
I thought prana were an american country - unlikey they have anything to do with wind turbines in the lakes, scotland or wales...
Are you against any turbine anywhere? I suspect in the US its a very different issue to the one it is in this more space conscious isle.
In reply to AdrianC:
offshore wind farms ?
unless we make choice for energy which is produced in a lower CO2 manner the place we enjoy visiting may start to look very different.
The argument that wind farms alter the beautiful landscape etc.. is in my opinion a weak one. Our countryside is almost entirely man made in its appearance. We have to make concessions for the future.
> (In reply to woolsack) But what is "sustainable" about wind power? Where are we going to put them once the Lakes, Wales, Scotland and Pennines are all covered?
>
> And aside from that I'm just flabbergasted that Prana think there's some advertising value in championing an energy source that so many outdoors people are up in arms about.
>
> And aside from that I'm just flabbergasted that Prana think there's some advertising value in championing an energy source that so many outdoors people are up in arms about.
offshore wind farms ?
unless we make choice for energy which is produced in a lower CO2 manner the place we enjoy visiting may start to look very different.
The argument that wind farms alter the beautiful landscape etc.. is in my opinion a weak one. Our countryside is almost entirely man made in its appearance. We have to make concessions for the future.
In reply to AdrianC:
No it will take a big mix of renewable energy sources, and energy and resource conservation; wind power will be but one part of that mix.
Mick
> (In reply to woolsack) So exponential population growth and increasing per capita energy usage can be sustained by wind power?
No it will take a big mix of renewable energy sources, and energy and resource conservation; wind power will be but one part of that mix.
Mick
In reply to es: Denmark Sweden and Germany are pretty hot on wind farms, supposedly because they are wned within the communities they are sited within
It helps when you feel associated with the saving you are making, as the Danes put it "your own pigs dont smell"
It helps when you feel associated with the saving you are making, as the Danes put it "your own pigs dont smell"
In reply to AdrianC:
They do:
"We’re always looking for new ways to fold sustainable materials and practices into our collection, working to reduce the impact on soils, water supplies and other natural resources.
As a member of the Organic Trade Association, prAna is continually increasing the use of organic cotton, as well as sourcing other natural fibers and innovative recycled/upcycled materials.
In 2007, prAna is effectively tripling its support of wind power, adding 100 European and 50 Canadian retailers to the 250 US retailers already participating. The expanded investment supports wind farms in India, China, US and Canada."
> (In reply to martin k) I'll congratulate them (and maybe buy their gear again) when they're the ones giving out that message about consuming less.
They do:
"We’re always looking for new ways to fold sustainable materials and practices into our collection, working to reduce the impact on soils, water supplies and other natural resources.
As a member of the Organic Trade Association, prAna is continually increasing the use of organic cotton, as well as sourcing other natural fibers and innovative recycled/upcycled materials.
In 2007, prAna is effectively tripling its support of wind power, adding 100 European and 50 Canadian retailers to the 250 US retailers already participating. The expanded investment supports wind farms in India, China, US and Canada."
In reply to AdrianC: that is due to be taken care of by bird flu when they can get the distribution right. Beta testing with the novovirus was promising. For the uk it will of course be carried by urban pigeons and seagulls but initial flight tests with swans have been promising :*)
In reply to Fawksey:
I guess what i was trying to say it that - just because you don't want a wind turbine near you (or you favourite view) - it seems a strange jump of logic to then believe that wind turbines couldn't ever play a positive role anywhere.
Blanket views like "wind = evil" seem over prescriptive and narrow minded - indeed wind doesn't have a place everywhere - but there are lots of places where it is a good option. When you try to compare the lakes to the american mid west or wales to china your comparing apples and lemons.
Consider each situation on its own merits.
Even if i really hated the idea of putting wind turbines on the edge of the lakes - I'd find it hard to make the leap to boycotting prana because they used turbines in america or some other part of europe.
(then again maybe it is prana who want to build a wind farm on top of stanage - who knows)
I guess what i was trying to say it that - just because you don't want a wind turbine near you (or you favourite view) - it seems a strange jump of logic to then believe that wind turbines couldn't ever play a positive role anywhere.
Blanket views like "wind = evil" seem over prescriptive and narrow minded - indeed wind doesn't have a place everywhere - but there are lots of places where it is a good option. When you try to compare the lakes to the american mid west or wales to china your comparing apples and lemons.
Consider each situation on its own merits.
Even if i really hated the idea of putting wind turbines on the edge of the lakes - I'd find it hard to make the leap to boycotting prana because they used turbines in america or some other part of europe.
(then again maybe it is prana who want to build a wind farm on top of stanage - who knows)
In reply to es: yes sorry if my response appeared to oppose what you had said earlier I didnt intend to, its a shame the debate that we want so that we can have informed opinions will be hijacked at every opportunity, rather like the lies told on both sides in the fox hunting debate
Yes to wind turbines above Howarth does not mean put them everywhere
No to wind turbines in Knoydart does not mean no turbines anywhere
On balance the fact Prana source organic cotton materials would help me purchase clothing from them, I dont want supermarket 99p T shirts produced from Ukraine cotton producers using summer child labour while spraying toxins onto the children while they are still working in the fields
And that really is what it boils down to: You pays your money you takes your choice
Yes to wind turbines above Howarth does not mean put them everywhere
No to wind turbines in Knoydart does not mean no turbines anywhere
On balance the fact Prana source organic cotton materials would help me purchase clothing from them, I dont want supermarket 99p T shirts produced from Ukraine cotton producers using summer child labour while spraying toxins onto the children while they are still working in the fields
And that really is what it boils down to: You pays your money you takes your choice
In reply to Fawksey:
Not realy true.
When they where first introduced in Denmark, it was usualy little groups of shareholders, who put money into it. Not necesarily from the communities where the turbines where put up.
Reason they did it, was because they got shitload of money from the state to do so. The state also forcing the market to buy xxx ammount of Watts from Windfarms, power which where also, sold at a much higher price then the power produces at conventional Powerplant.
So it was much more a matter of money not smelling.
None of the people i know who put money into this, did so out of concern for the inviroment, it was just an investment to make some money, easy and secure money due to the Intervention of the state.
And since the industry of manufacturing Windturbines have turned into big bug buisness, ofcourse they are supporting it.
I have nothing against them, just dont see them as the Wholy grail of energy that some peope seems to see them as.
I grew up with 5 of them within 1000m of my House, and with view to the ,at the time, World largest Windturbine, it was a test site. There is still more realy big turbines at the spot. Including the prototype for the Turbines which is now used in the huge ofshore farm just North of there.
Not realy true.
When they where first introduced in Denmark, it was usualy little groups of shareholders, who put money into it. Not necesarily from the communities where the turbines where put up.
Reason they did it, was because they got shitload of money from the state to do so. The state also forcing the market to buy xxx ammount of Watts from Windfarms, power which where also, sold at a much higher price then the power produces at conventional Powerplant.
So it was much more a matter of money not smelling.
None of the people i know who put money into this, did so out of concern for the inviroment, it was just an investment to make some money, easy and secure money due to the Intervention of the state.
And since the industry of manufacturing Windturbines have turned into big bug buisness, ofcourse they are supporting it.
I have nothing against them, just dont see them as the Wholy grail of energy that some peope seems to see them as.
I grew up with 5 of them within 1000m of my House, and with view to the ,at the time, World largest Windturbine, it was a test site. There is still more realy big turbines at the spot. Including the prototype for the Turbines which is now used in the huge ofshore farm just North of there.
In reply to Mokkel: Thanks for the further insight, I did use the word "supposedly" at the beginning and was trying to make the point that if the wind turbines were owned within the community it might be more acceptable
The fact that it wasnt the case that these were owned by the community but by business in your experience doesnt mean that it isnt the right way forward, I als dont think theres anything wrng with ffrering incentives in the form of financial inducements - we need to move away from the polarising of the issue, we cant make a balanced judgement based on that single develpment but on many varied develpments all over the world
I only think they could be part of a combined strategy to produce renewable energy - something has to, we cant go on for ever doing nothing
The fact that it wasnt the case that these were owned by the community but by business in your experience doesnt mean that it isnt the right way forward, I als dont think theres anything wrng with ffrering incentives in the form of financial inducements - we need to move away from the polarising of the issue, we cant make a balanced judgement based on that single develpment but on many varied develpments all over the world
I only think they could be part of a combined strategy to produce renewable energy - something has to, we cant go on for ever doing nothing
In reply to Fawksey:
I think you are right.
That if people choose to have them and actualy get a little profit from them, instead of just having them forced into their neigbourhood, they might be more acceptable.
But if they are put down in Areas far from where the actualy need for more power is, i dont think anyone would just accept it. (i defenetly wouldnt i i lived on Lewis)
I think you are right.
That if people choose to have them and actualy get a little profit from them, instead of just having them forced into their neigbourhood, they might be more acceptable.
But if they are put down in Areas far from where the actualy need for more power is, i dont think anyone would just accept it. (i defenetly wouldnt i i lived on Lewis)
In reply to Mokkel: Its a long time sinced I visited Lewis, it rained a lot and my exhaust fell off on my way to Callanish
No I didnt like the proposed wind farm on Lewis either - sometimes youve got to watch developers they will try things with no real prospect of getting it while really trying to get something somewhere else
After Dundee Light & Power got refused in Shieldaig I bet theyve got hydro scheme plans on several other similar loch and river systems on the west coast
No I didnt like the proposed wind farm on Lewis either - sometimes youve got to watch developers they will try things with no real prospect of getting it while really trying to get something somewhere else
After Dundee Light & Power got refused in Shieldaig I bet theyve got hydro scheme plans on several other similar loch and river systems on the west coast
In reply to AdrianC:
I haven't any issues with wind turbines. I think that investing in them now, when they aren't superb is just setting things up for the future when technology will have improved and they are much more efficent. I do have an issue with where they are put. it always seems to be the outdoor areas (wales, scotland, pennines etc.. mentioned earlier.) It would be nice to see more wind farms in developed areas. I hope the reason they have not been built there is for H&S/noise and not for aesthetic reasons!
J
I haven't any issues with wind turbines. I think that investing in them now, when they aren't superb is just setting things up for the future when technology will have improved and they are much more efficent. I do have an issue with where they are put. it always seems to be the outdoor areas (wales, scotland, pennines etc.. mentioned earlier.) It would be nice to see more wind farms in developed areas. I hope the reason they have not been built there is for H&S/noise and not for aesthetic reasons!
J
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