This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Hey
Has anyone noticed the new barbed wire fence that (i assume the council) has put up to stop access to suspension bridge butress in the Avon Gorge? It went up in late Nov/early Dec but we've no idea why. I havent been able to find any access issues on the BMC website but is there something i've missed?
Thanks
Pete
Has anyone noticed the new barbed wire fence that (i assume the council) has put up to stop access to suspension bridge butress in the Avon Gorge? It went up in late Nov/early Dec but we've no idea why. I havent been able to find any access issues on the BMC website but is there something i've missed?
Thanks
Pete
In reply to Pete Swan:
Check with Steve Findlay - BMC Access Rep For Avon:
enquires@undercover-rock.com
Cheers
Si
Check with Steve Findlay - BMC Access Rep For Avon:
enquires@undercover-rock.com
Cheers
Si
In reply to Pete Swan:
Was there on sat, there is a fence that makes it a bit harder to get over the wall, but any barbed wire is now gone.
Was there on sat, there is a fence that makes it a bit harder to get over the wall, but any barbed wire is now gone.
In reply to Pete Swan:
I don't know if you noticed but they blocked the other two entrances into the Amphitheatre as well, you can still climb in near the suspension bridge bit though.
I don't know if you noticed but they blocked the other two entrances into the Amphitheatre as well, you can still climb in near the suspension bridge bit though.
In reply to Pete Swan:
It was brought up at the November local BMC meeting. I personally felt that razor wire was the last thing you want to deal with with a rucksack on after you've ben rained off Giant's Cave Buttress after dark. It's not playing fair, even if it was avoidable.
Unless there's some new stuff gone up, then as far as I know, it's gone.
I noticed, one tuesday night at about 1.00 in the morning when I just happened to be passing home from the pub, that the razor wire had mysteriously dissappeared. I would imagine, if I had to guess, that it had been safely disposed of in a nearby skip, that would be the responsible thing to do.
It was brought up at the November local BMC meeting. I personally felt that razor wire was the last thing you want to deal with with a rucksack on after you've ben rained off Giant's Cave Buttress after dark. It's not playing fair, even if it was avoidable.
Unless there's some new stuff gone up, then as far as I know, it's gone.
I noticed, one tuesday night at about 1.00 in the morning when I just happened to be passing home from the pub, that the razor wire had mysteriously dissappeared. I would imagine, if I had to guess, that it had been safely disposed of in a nearby skip, that would be the responsible thing to do.
In reply to Pete Swan:
According to Summit access info (received this morning) Bristol city council have banned climbing on suspension bridge buttress due to safety/liability issues?????
According to Summit access info (received this morning) Bristol city council have banned climbing on suspension bridge buttress due to safety/liability issues?????
In reply to liz j:
If that is true, that is a really serious loss - Suspension Bridge buttress is pretty much the cleanest rock at Avon.
If that is true, that is a really serious loss - Suspension Bridge buttress is pretty much the cleanest rock at Avon.
In reply to liz j: There's no mention of that on the BMC regional access database. In the absence of any information there I would continue to climb on SSB.
In reply to John2:
The exact quote is:-
Bristol city council has banned access to the popular suspension bridge buttress due to safety and liability concerns. The BMC are in contact with the council and we'll keep you updated.
Doesn't state climbing banned but if access is banned then that includes any activity I guess??
The exact quote is:-
Bristol city council has banned access to the popular suspension bridge buttress due to safety and liability concerns. The BMC are in contact with the council and we'll keep you updated.
Doesn't state climbing banned but if access is banned then that includes any activity I guess??
In reply to liz j: Does this mean that Giants cave area is also banned - this what a fence surrounding the base of that area of crag would suggest - why not just fence off the underpass? I suspect its more to do with kids chucking stuff off it at cars than climbers?
In reply to liz_j, GrahamD, john2 & mike kann:
I'm convinced this is the writers of Summit adhering to the standard of factual accuracy and research we are more usually accustomed to in other magazines.
It's not been mentioned as a ban at any of the last two regional meetings in Bristol, nor in the minutes of the local AGM at Cheddar. Just that there's all this confusion about the left hand of the council not knowing what the right one is doing which we've discussed, but not a ban, and my observations about the razor wire .
And even if it is banned I really don't see hwo they expect to enforce this as getting up there is pretty involved for your average council official, or even a rozzer, even though the tatty rope's been replaced (How's that wire looking, is it OK?).
For the record your escape routes from irate coucnil officials are a) Top out (not allowed if you use the bridge structure), b) The regular approach, c) The upstream approach, follow the wire and either walk back under the gallery, cross the road or go up the road carefully to the zig zags, d) Down the workman's ladder to the river side of the gorge, or ab of course.
And even if it is banned, I for one will be paying no attention to it
whatsoever. They don't even own the land, though they may have responsibility for the Gallery over the road (if they don't want us on that fine, I'll ab in from the side), we're not causing a hazard to the public so I don't know on what sort of trespass grounds they could cite.
If they want to ban it and escape us to stick to it they'll have to make their case better than that. The peregrine's not even nesting anywhere near it (it's arrived at Main Wall now so that's out)
I'm convinced this is the writers of Summit adhering to the standard of factual accuracy and research we are more usually accustomed to in other magazines.
It's not been mentioned as a ban at any of the last two regional meetings in Bristol, nor in the minutes of the local AGM at Cheddar. Just that there's all this confusion about the left hand of the council not knowing what the right one is doing which we've discussed, but not a ban, and my observations about the razor wire .
And even if it is banned I really don't see hwo they expect to enforce this as getting up there is pretty involved for your average council official, or even a rozzer, even though the tatty rope's been replaced (How's that wire looking, is it OK?).
For the record your escape routes from irate coucnil officials are a) Top out (not allowed if you use the bridge structure), b) The regular approach, c) The upstream approach, follow the wire and either walk back under the gallery, cross the road or go up the road carefully to the zig zags, d) Down the workman's ladder to the river side of the gorge, or ab of course.
And even if it is banned, I for one will be paying no attention to it
whatsoever. They don't even own the land, though they may have responsibility for the Gallery over the road (if they don't want us on that fine, I'll ab in from the side), we're not causing a hazard to the public so I don't know on what sort of trespass grounds they could cite.
If they want to ban it and escape us to stick to it they'll have to make their case better than that. The peregrine's not even nesting anywhere near it (it's arrived at Main Wall now so that's out)
In reply to Pete Swan: Have not been there for a few weeks now, but there was new razor wire there in December/Jan, a section of which had been cut away the last time I was there, which made things a bit easier. Did notice the fence at the bottom of GCB had been fixed as well.
But this is the first I have heard of any resrictions. There is no sign up and nothing has been publised so it sounds like we ignore it. As Paz has said, there is no reason for a ban, SSB has been climbed on for over 50 years.
But this is the first I have heard of any resrictions. There is no sign up and nothing has been publised so it sounds like we ignore it. As Paz has said, there is no reason for a ban, SSB has been climbed on for over 50 years.
In reply to Richard Hall:
Well, that's that sorted then. Anyone up for saturday, I'll bring the wire cutters
Well, that's that sorted then. Anyone up for saturday, I'll bring the wire cutters
In reply to Richard Hall:
It's gone Rich, believe me, it's gone (we were there sunday).
In reply to liz_d:
And a pair of tough gloves.
It's gone Rich, believe me, it's gone (we were there sunday).
In reply to liz_d:
And a pair of tough gloves.
In reply to Paz: While we're at it can we go bridgeswinging?
In reply to Paz: Well that is good news.
Mike: Have been wanting to do a swing off the bridge for years. Has anyone done it?
Mike: Have been wanting to do a swing off the bridge for years. Has anyone done it?
In reply to Richard Hall: I know one person who has done it but if you got caught you'd be sent to the colonies...
In reply to Richard Hall:
There was a bloke a while back who bungee jumped off and set himself on fire.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/3410265.stm
Nearly a Darwin award contender
There was a bloke a while back who bungee jumped off and set himself on fire.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/3410265.stm
Nearly a Darwin award contender
In reply to Pete Swan:
BMC database is now showing it as being banned.
"The landowner (Bristol Council) do not currently permit public access due to insurance and liability concerns."
I've no idea why they've decided that this is now suddenly an issue.
Surely the fact that climbing is undertaken at your own risk negates the council from liability. There is no obligation on an owner or occupier to a visitor who willingly accepts risks on natural features such as cliffs, mountains, steep paths or slopes.
It's not like they haven't signposted the fact there is a cliff and people can fall off!
BMC database is now showing it as being banned.
"The landowner (Bristol Council) do not currently permit public access due to insurance and liability concerns."
I've no idea why they've decided that this is now suddenly an issue.
Surely the fact that climbing is undertaken at your own risk negates the council from liability. There is no obligation on an owner or occupier to a visitor who willingly accepts risks on natural features such as cliffs, mountains, steep paths or slopes.
It's not like they haven't signposted the fact there is a cliff and people can fall off!
In reply to maresia:
My guess is they're more worried about third party liability ie. you climb a route and knock off a rock / drop a bit of gear which then lands on some unsuspecting passer-by / driver / cyclist and kills them. At Cheddar part of the new access arrangement is that all climbers must have third-party liability insurance to cover this event (ie BMC membership) - I wonder whether the same thing will be negotiated at Avon?
My guess is they're more worried about third party liability ie. you climb a route and knock off a rock / drop a bit of gear which then lands on some unsuspecting passer-by / driver / cyclist and kills them. At Cheddar part of the new access arrangement is that all climbers must have third-party liability insurance to cover this event (ie BMC membership) - I wonder whether the same thing will be negotiated at Avon?
In reply to quadmyre:
Apart from the fact that there is a HUGE roof over the road and footpath to catch people throwing themselves off the bridge!
There is no objective danger to the public.
Apart from the fact that there is a HUGE roof over the road and footpath to catch people throwing themselves off the bridge!
There is no objective danger to the public.
In reply to maresia: That's really bad news. If anyone from the BMC is reading this, can they confirm whether or not they are in negotiation with Bristol Council.
In reply to maresia:
Ah. Dunno then. I was just guessing really - I've not actually climbed on SBB myself. Should probably keep my mouth shut... but then where would this forum be if we didn't have a bit of misinformed gibbering?
Ah. Dunno then. I was just guessing really - I've not actually climbed on SBB myself. Should probably keep my mouth shut... but then where would this forum be if we didn't have a bit of misinformed gibbering?
In reply to quadmyre:
I would highly recommend it - there are some really good clean, solid routes. Obviously not at the moment though unless the headtorch comes out for a night time excursion.
I would highly recommend it - there are some really good clean, solid routes. Obviously not at the moment though unless the headtorch comes out for a night time excursion.
In reply to maresia:
The absence of any actual objective danger to the public is no obstacle to a local authority banning something on those grounds. Shame, it's a good venue and not half as polished as much of the rest of the gorge.
> (In reply to quadmyre)
>
> Apart from the fact that there is a HUGE roof over the road and footpath to catch people throwing themselves off the bridge!
>
> There is no objective danger to the public.
>
> Apart from the fact that there is a HUGE roof over the road and footpath to catch people throwing themselves off the bridge!
>
> There is no objective danger to the public.
The absence of any actual objective danger to the public is no obstacle to a local authority banning something on those grounds. Shame, it's a good venue and not half as polished as much of the rest of the gorge.
In reply to Pete Swan: This is awfull news.
What is there that we as climbers can do about it?
It would be a real shame if this remains the case.
Ideas anyone?
What is there that we as climbers can do about it?
It would be a real shame if this remains the case.
Ideas anyone?
In reply to Richard Hall: Boring as it sounds, maybe we should leave SSB alone in the short term - give the BMC a bit of time to talk to the council.
In reply to Richard Hall:
Mass trespass, or just carry on as before.
> What is there that we as climbers can do about it?
>
>
Mass trespass, or just carry on as before.
In reply to bpmclimb and Paz: Well that is the 2 extremes, anything in between anyone?
In reply to Richard Hall:
How about a bridge blockade???
How about a bridge blockade???
In reply to Richard Hall: How about stretching a masize banner across it? Right from the Arete to Hells Gates.
Have not thought what it say though...
Have not thought what it say though...
In reply to liz j: Like it but that would just end up in a lot of people getting arested prefer the mass trespass idea, but I am not sure anyone would notice.
In reply to Pete Swan: Do a horizontal climb dressed in full himalayan gear to the council offices and demand to see the mayor, making sure that on the way you cause numerous incidents where council health and safety and their lawyers would have as fit.
In reply to Richard Hall: It would be easier to decide what the appropriate thing to do was if someone from the BMC would comment on whether they are actively pursuing the issue with Bristol Council.
In reply to Pete Swan:
I've emailed Guy Keating at the BMC to ask what the current situation is and pointed him to this thread.
I've emailed Guy Keating at the BMC to ask what the current situation is and pointed him to this thread.
In reply to maresia: Guy is on holiday at the moment, so I can't confirm what the exact score is regarding discussions with the council. The BMC will of course be doing our best to regain access to this venue. In the meantime it might be a good idea to stay away until we know more. The last thing we need is to get the landowners back up when we are trying to persaude them that we are sensible, reasonable etc.
Guy will post more detail when he gets back, in the meantime see the RAD database for details https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmccrag/ViewCrag.aspx?id=909
Guy will post more detail when he gets back, in the meantime see the RAD database for details https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmccrag/ViewCrag.aspx?id=909
In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:
Reading the local minutes again I'm sure it's just badly worded, it should've just said something like `Council have impeded access...' as opposed to `Council have banned access...'. It might be an idea for people to refrain from having accidents on the crag in the meantime.
Reading the local minutes again I'm sure it's just badly worded, it should've just said something like `Council have impeded access...' as opposed to `Council have banned access...'. It might be an idea for people to refrain from having accidents on the crag in the meantime.
In reply to Paz:
Damn. I was looking forward to decking out off Limbo this weekend....
> (In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC)
>
> Reading the local minutes again I'm sure it's just badly worded, it should've just said something like `Council have impeded access...' as opposed to `Council have banned access...'. It might be an idea for people to refrain from having accidents on the crag in the meantime.
>
> Reading the local minutes again I'm sure it's just badly worded, it should've just said something like `Council have impeded access...' as opposed to `Council have banned access...'. It might be an idea for people to refrain from having accidents on the crag in the meantime.
Damn. I was looking forward to decking out off Limbo this weekend....
In reply to hutchm: I would suggest that you could deck far more spectacularly onto another piece of council run land by climbing the original start to Puke at Seawalls.
In reply to mike kann: A fine sandbag. The current guide gives it VS 4C, the UKC database says HVS 5A and there is a note saying that the original start (described as VS 4C in the guide) is E1 5A.
In reply to John2: Why I thank you. It has to be the original first pitch though. Nothing else will suffice.
In reply to John2: BTW you do realise that the variation start in the old guide was swaped for the original start, i.e. the Varation start which is now the normal start has always been given 4c, whereas the original was HVS 5a, then demoted to a variation and given E1 5a.
In reply to Paz: So do you mean that we are discouraged to climb there rather than disallowed to climb there?
In reply to Richard Hall:
Maybe they are worried about climbers being taken out by an increasing number of bridge jumpers!! Didn't someone land in the brambles a couple of weeks ago??
Maybe they are worried about climbers being taken out by an increasing number of bridge jumpers!! Didn't someone land in the brambles a couple of weeks ago??
In reply to Richard Hall:
Well we were discouraged, and more in the practical sense than the official one. But some physical obstacles to access have now been removed. I don't know any more than anyone else who's been past there recently and read the BMC's local minutes, I should add.
Well we were discouraged, and more in the practical sense than the official one. But some physical obstacles to access have now been removed. I don't know any more than anyone else who's been past there recently and read the BMC's local minutes, I should add.
When the rumour of a ban was first brought to our attention a couple of months ago, the local BMC access rep. and myself spoke to Bristol Council who stated the following,
1. The Council had now banned climbing on the buttress.
2. There is a contract in place to ensure the prohibitive fence is maintained.
3. The Council intended to use security guards to patrol the site, and climbers would be asked to leave.
Naturally, we explained the BMC was dissapointed in Bristol Council's position and could not support their actions, also explaining that climbers were unlikely to adhere to the ban.
We are now in the process of writing directly to Bristol Council to progress the issue.
Rgds,
Guy Keating
BMC A&C Officer.
1. The Council had now banned climbing on the buttress.
2. There is a contract in place to ensure the prohibitive fence is maintained.
3. The Council intended to use security guards to patrol the site, and climbers would be asked to leave.
Naturally, we explained the BMC was dissapointed in Bristol Council's position and could not support their actions, also explaining that climbers were unlikely to adhere to the ban.
We are now in the process of writing directly to Bristol Council to progress the issue.
Rgds,
Guy Keating
BMC A&C Officer.
Blimey that's shite. I may just have to dust off the climbing gear and potter over and do some routes to spite them...
In reply to Paz:
And to think, they've been encouraging night climbing since the new lighting was installed, and then go and deny access!
And to think, they've been encouraging night climbing since the new lighting was installed, and then go and deny access!
In reply to ally smith:
That was the Bridge Trustees not the council (though they probably needed planning permission). But good point, do they intend to patrol it 24 hours a day? Like I've said before whoever's holding the fence maintainance contract has got paid to do no work to it for at least the last 3 months, though we climbers should probably keep quiet about that.
Local council tax payers should probably be kicking up more of a fuss about such a blatant waste of money and demand more value.
That was the Bridge Trustees not the council (though they probably needed planning permission). But good point, do they intend to patrol it 24 hours a day? Like I've said before whoever's holding the fence maintainance contract has got paid to do no work to it for at least the last 3 months, though we climbers should probably keep quiet about that.
Local council tax payers should probably be kicking up more of a fuss about such a blatant waste of money and demand more value.
In reply to Pete Swan: It would be ironic if the council really has banned climbing on the butress, considering that not many years ago a new route by a celebrated climber in the area was a national media event, and the fact that climbing Suspension Bridge Buttress is the dream of every young climber in Bristol. I climbed Hell Gates (HVS)in December and it was superb in every way. Good rock, nice line, interesting moves, amazing location. I don't know how many climbers get into difficulties and have to be rescued, but I would expect it to be a tiny number compared with the annual carnage of suicides that have to be cleared up by the emergency services. The biggest danger to a climber on the buttress is probably being hit by a falling stockbroker. (I apologise if anyone has recently lost a stockbroker friend on the bridge; the guy who made a mess of himself in the brambles recently was a solicitor I knew quite well). I'm planning to climb Earl of Perth over the next few weekends, and frankly the council can go f*** themselves; if they could have successfully run the local state education system without driving huge numbers of parents into the private sector or over the county boundary or even emptied the bins reliably I might have had more respect for their edicts on rock access.
> I'm planning to climb Earl of Perth over the next few weekends
Ah that's a great fun route - enjoy
In reply to Humpty Dangler:
LOL.
What's everyone's approach going to be then? I too am more than prepared to participate in a mass protest, but if they're not going to enforce a ban vigourously, then maybe from the point of view of climbing on the crag we're better off letting sleeping dogs lie? It does seem like a worthy figure head to let officialdom know what climbers think of over zealous Health and Safety culture gone mad when it interferes with climbing access issues (and there's no risk to the public) though. If you were assessing risks in the area using data and observations then you'd be forced to close the suspension bridge to pedestrians due to suicides and the A4 due to car accidents, but these risks are tolerated by society. Clearly the council've over reacted and have instead used their own ignorant perceptions of the risks involved in our sport, or are just scared of getting sued. Even if they did close access because of climbing accidents they'd just move future ones further up the gorge. You wouldn't actually save anyone's life IMHO. Someone even suggested to me the Gallery was built to protect the road from rock fall and not suicides - now I don't think I've ever pulled anything (but veg) off any of the popular long up routes (though Olly might remember about one of the unpopular ones), apart from a block someone mentioned on rocktalk ages ago near the main ab/ belay which took me ages of wiggling to loosen and hoof off away from anyone. Anyway sorry I digress.
If we wanted to make a big campaign out of this but messed it up, we could just end up having our day in the spotlight (hopefully not in court) and still having no access and maybe even look like fools. Or would we then be no worse off than we are now - do people think we are unlikely to provoke them into upping the security? But if there's no practical obstacle to climbing there and it's no more banned than a few other `banned' crags are we perhaps better off just keeping quiet until the council have forgotten about it, or is this unfair on those climbers (e.g. with responsible jobs, prominent positions or whatever) who wish to play it by the book? Shall we just play it by ear over the next few weeks and see what happens, leave when asked as usual etc., and keep a record of what we do to collate evidence?
Also I know this is a crag of national importance (no snickering up north), but I believe local climbers should look after the crags in their backyard first. To this end the next local area meeting isn't until the 17th or 18th May in Plymouth (acording to the agenda I've got in front of me). Now I know I don't have a car, don't plan to go and frankly can't wait until then, but I don't think the Plymouth lads want us disrupting their whole meeting with Bristol issues either, so can I suggest a local BMC EGM in Bristol before then, or just a SWAG meeting? They haven't confirmed a venue or date yet AFAIK so maybe it's easiest just to move that meeting to Bristol if those from the far south west don't mind? I don't know what the practicalities are about booking venues and that, but we could have it at my house when ever you like if that's really a problem.
LOL.
What's everyone's approach going to be then? I too am more than prepared to participate in a mass protest, but if they're not going to enforce a ban vigourously, then maybe from the point of view of climbing on the crag we're better off letting sleeping dogs lie? It does seem like a worthy figure head to let officialdom know what climbers think of over zealous Health and Safety culture gone mad when it interferes with climbing access issues (and there's no risk to the public) though. If you were assessing risks in the area using data and observations then you'd be forced to close the suspension bridge to pedestrians due to suicides and the A4 due to car accidents, but these risks are tolerated by society. Clearly the council've over reacted and have instead used their own ignorant perceptions of the risks involved in our sport, or are just scared of getting sued. Even if they did close access because of climbing accidents they'd just move future ones further up the gorge. You wouldn't actually save anyone's life IMHO. Someone even suggested to me the Gallery was built to protect the road from rock fall and not suicides - now I don't think I've ever pulled anything (but veg) off any of the popular long up routes (though Olly might remember about one of the unpopular ones), apart from a block someone mentioned on rocktalk ages ago near the main ab/ belay which took me ages of wiggling to loosen and hoof off away from anyone. Anyway sorry I digress.
If we wanted to make a big campaign out of this but messed it up, we could just end up having our day in the spotlight (hopefully not in court) and still having no access and maybe even look like fools. Or would we then be no worse off than we are now - do people think we are unlikely to provoke them into upping the security? But if there's no practical obstacle to climbing there and it's no more banned than a few other `banned' crags are we perhaps better off just keeping quiet until the council have forgotten about it, or is this unfair on those climbers (e.g. with responsible jobs, prominent positions or whatever) who wish to play it by the book? Shall we just play it by ear over the next few weeks and see what happens, leave when asked as usual etc., and keep a record of what we do to collate evidence?
Also I know this is a crag of national importance (no snickering up north), but I believe local climbers should look after the crags in their backyard first. To this end the next local area meeting isn't until the 17th or 18th May in Plymouth (acording to the agenda I've got in front of me). Now I know I don't have a car, don't plan to go and frankly can't wait until then, but I don't think the Plymouth lads want us disrupting their whole meeting with Bristol issues either, so can I suggest a local BMC EGM in Bristol before then, or just a SWAG meeting? They haven't confirmed a venue or date yet AFAIK so maybe it's easiest just to move that meeting to Bristol if those from the far south west don't mind? I don't know what the practicalities are about booking venues and that, but we could have it at my house when ever you like if that's really a problem.
In reply to Paz: A couple of random thoughts - wasn't there an accident last year on SSB in which someone received hear injuries? I wonder if that influenced the council's thinking.
Also, the routes on SSB are actually some of the most consistently well protected ones at Avon. It seems to me that forcing people away from this area would be likely to result in more accidents to climbers, not less.
Also, the routes on SSB are actually some of the most consistently well protected ones at Avon. It seems to me that forcing people away from this area would be likely to result in more accidents to climbers, not less.
In reply to John2:
Yeh there was some complicated rescue involving the fire brigade if that was the same thing. I'll try and get the stats.
Yeh there was some complicated rescue involving the fire brigade if that was the same thing. I'll try and get the stats.
In reply to John2:
I've checked the local cliff rescue log for 2008 so far and 2007 and the only thing involving climbers is the famous incident where someone got stuck in the Giant's Cave.
http://www.ascrt.com/2007_log.html
This isn't exhaustive however as it doesn't record the possible suicide we called them out for in December, and I can't find the incident we're thinking of (was that 2006? - the only thing mentioned for this year involving climbers I saw was some minor incidents for Brunel 200). So it doesn't prove that nothing's happened, but it is intersting reading nonetheless as a snapshot of the actual local risks to health.
Also at the November BMC meeting a couple of people from the rescue team were there and they mentioned the obstructions the council had placed in their way! - Locks on the gates to the amphtheatre etc. Nothing was said (by anyone there) of any concerns about the difficulties of rescuing climbers from the Gallery, so if anyone's raised them, I suspect it's the fire brigade.
I've checked the local cliff rescue log for 2008 so far and 2007 and the only thing involving climbers is the famous incident where someone got stuck in the Giant's Cave.
http://www.ascrt.com/2007_log.html
This isn't exhaustive however as it doesn't record the possible suicide we called them out for in December, and I can't find the incident we're thinking of (was that 2006? - the only thing mentioned for this year involving climbers I saw was some minor incidents for Brunel 200). So it doesn't prove that nothing's happened, but it is intersting reading nonetheless as a snapshot of the actual local risks to health.
Also at the November BMC meeting a couple of people from the rescue team were there and they mentioned the obstructions the council had placed in their way! - Locks on the gates to the amphtheatre etc. Nothing was said (by anyone there) of any concerns about the difficulties of rescuing climbers from the Gallery, so if anyone's raised them, I suspect it's the fire brigade.
In reply to Paz: It was definitely last year http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=239826&v=1#x3526846 .
That's an interesting point you make - maybe the rescue services have complained to the council about the difficulties created by all their barricades.
That's an interesting point you make - maybe the rescue services have complained to the council about the difficulties created by all their barricades.
In reply to Paz:
This is the one I remember from last year - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=239826.
Personally I went on Monday and no one questioned me, I may just keep going and see if anyone complains (if they do I'll leave).
This is the one I remember from last year - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=239826.
Personally I went on Monday and no one questioned me, I may just keep going and see if anyone complains (if they do I'll leave).
In reply to John2:
Yeah, this is from the horse's mouth.
http://www.avonfire.gov.uk/avonfire/templates/search.aspx?NRMODE=Published&...
Yeah, this is from the horse's mouth.
http://www.avonfire.gov.uk/avonfire/templates/search.aspx?NRMODE=Published&...
Please keep an eye out for the paper petition that will be available at the Bristol Climbing Centre in the next week and for an on line petition that we will be organizing soon.
I am going to be away in Nepal until April 25th but if the good people of Bristol can collect as many signatures as possible in that time then I will present it to the council end of April and see what we can do to change this ridiculous situation.
Spread the word people, numbers count in this sort of situation.
I am going to be away in Nepal until April 25th but if the good people of Bristol can collect as many signatures as possible in that time then I will present it to the council end of April and see what we can do to change this ridiculous situation.
Spread the word people, numbers count in this sort of situation.
In reply to Steve Findlay:
An e-petition has just been set up, find out more here:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=2499
An e-petition has just been set up, find out more here:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=2499
In reply to Team BMC: Do you know why climbing has been banned on SSB?
In reply to Team BMC: This doesn't seem to work.
In reply to John2:
No, sorry, I don't. Assume is liability related. Guy Keating will update the news item when he's back in the office.
No, sorry, I don't. Assume is liability related. Guy Keating will update the news item when he's back in the office.
In reply to Team BMC: Signed. Thanks for your efforts.
Bump. Just signed the e-petition, I hope everyone else who has climbed in the Gorge will please do likewise.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
yup - have added my thumbprint
yup - have added my thumbprint
In reply to Pete Swan:
Just added my "X" and forwarded it to my diving club as well - hoping for a sympathetic response and a few more names.
Just added my "X" and forwarded it to my diving club as well - hoping for a sympathetic response and a few more names.
In reply to GrahamD: Now up on the news with a link to the e-petition.
NEWS: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
Jack
NEWS: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/
Jack
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Nice one. The petition has already jumped from 95 to 177 signatures this morning. Keep them coming.
Nice one. The petition has already jumped from 95 to 177 signatures this morning. Keep them coming.
In reply to maresia:
We'll headline it in next weeks UKClimbing.com newsletter as well.
Mick
> (In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC)
>
> Nice one. The petition has already jumped from 95 to 177 signatures this morning. Keep them coming.
>
> Nice one. The petition has already jumped from 95 to 177 signatures this morning. Keep them coming.
We'll headline it in next weeks UKClimbing.com newsletter as well.
Mick
In reply to Pete Swan:
In all honesty how much is it going to change the situation on the ground? kayakers only have legal access to a patehtically small percentage of inland water and we just paddle whatever is running irrespective of landowners permission. As I understand it trespass is only a civil offence therefore you cannot be arrested for it and you can only be taken to court to be asked to pay compensation for any damage to the property that you caused. So just carry on climbing.
bloody muppets in suits.
In all honesty how much is it going to change the situation on the ground? kayakers only have legal access to a patehtically small percentage of inland water and we just paddle whatever is running irrespective of landowners permission. As I understand it trespass is only a civil offence therefore you cannot be arrested for it and you can only be taken to court to be asked to pay compensation for any damage to the property that you caused. So just carry on climbing.
bloody muppets in suits.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Some points to be made on this: I have been climbing in Avon for getting on for 40 years now and seen lots of similar scenarios come and go. BCC, as I recall, tried to ban climbing on Main Wall a lot of years ago because they feared that the public would try to emulate climbers and, behaving like lemmings, would throw themselves from the top. Sense prevailed at that time, but obviously this nonsense has reared its head again. Then they tolerated the gypsies all of those years and left the car park in the disgraceful state that it is now because it is easier to do nothing. And here you have the crux. They take the easy line. I have worked in Local Government and, for my sins, dealt with it on a daily basis with my own company. You have to understand the 'grey' local government mind. They work on fear. That is fear of losing their precious jobs, fear of having the finger pointed and, in the case of councillors, fear of not being re-elected. They will always take the line of least resistance to avoid having the finger pointed at them. The golden adage is: "thou shalt cover thy back". Nothing else matters.
Now my point here is that you have to work on this fear. I have happily put my name to the petition, but I am not convinced that it will do much good. It just appeals to their better nature, which they, patently, have not got. It does not work on the fear factor and just gives them a sense of power because we are perceived to be begging. Obviously there is nothing to be lost by the petition and hopefully many will sign it, but I am convinced that other ways might be more effective.
I think that if the Council is, for instance, held up for ridicule in the press for such a crass and stupid idea and things like the Government's idea that more people should partake in sport is tabled and this Council is denying people that right for no rational reason then the 'fear factor' can be brought to bear. As I said, they will always take the easy way which brings them the least hassle. The petition may have some effect, but adverse publicity is much better. Throw in a bit about the damage to the environment in their lack of maintenance of the area as well. My two-pennorth for what its worth.
Now my point here is that you have to work on this fear. I have happily put my name to the petition, but I am not convinced that it will do much good. It just appeals to their better nature, which they, patently, have not got. It does not work on the fear factor and just gives them a sense of power because we are perceived to be begging. Obviously there is nothing to be lost by the petition and hopefully many will sign it, but I am convinced that other ways might be more effective.
I think that if the Council is, for instance, held up for ridicule in the press for such a crass and stupid idea and things like the Government's idea that more people should partake in sport is tabled and this Council is denying people that right for no rational reason then the 'fear factor' can be brought to bear. As I said, they will always take the easy way which brings them the least hassle. The petition may have some effect, but adverse publicity is much better. Throw in a bit about the damage to the environment in their lack of maintenance of the area as well. My two-pennorth for what its worth.
In reply to John2:
That looks like a good point: the authorities are actually inviting more insurance claims by this action - do they realise that?!
> ... the routes on SSB are actually some of the most consistently well protected ones at Avon. It seems to me that forcing people away from this area would be likely to result in more accidents to climbers, not less.
That looks like a good point: the authorities are actually inviting more insurance claims by this action - do they realise that?!
In reply to Andy Stephenson:
Careful, their response if told might be to ban climbing in the other areas as well!
> That looks like a good point: the authorities are actually inviting more insurance claims by this action - do they realise that?!
Careful, their response if told might be to ban climbing in the other areas as well!
In reply to Andy Stephenson: What are the council worried about? the principle of volenti fit injuria applies: climbers accept the risks inherent in the activity, and can't make a claim if an accident results from these risks.
In reply to Toreador: I suspect that the estimated bill for securing all the other areas might prevent this option being taken, and perhaps make them more receptive to assurances that climbers accept their own risks.
In reply to Pete:
Your two-penneth is worth a great deal I would suggest. This whole issue just seems completely ill thought out by the Council. Ridicule of the ban in the press could be very beneficial to the climbers cause. This should be in the Bristol Evening Post at least.
Has there actually been a statement from the Council to explain exactly why the ban has been put in place?
Your two-penneth is worth a great deal I would suggest. This whole issue just seems completely ill thought out by the Council. Ridicule of the ban in the press could be very beneficial to the climbers cause. This should be in the Bristol Evening Post at least.
Has there actually been a statement from the Council to explain exactly why the ban has been put in place?
This is a copy of a message I have just e-mailed to my Bristol City Councillor, with copies to the Evening Post news desk and letters page:
Hi Terry,
I've been searching the BCC website without success, trying to find out if the Council has indeed banned access to the Suspension Bridge Buttress to climbers.
If it is true I would like to see some justification for the decision, which has had the effect of depriving the city of a unique and iconic amenity. Bristol is regarded worldwide as a cultural centre for outdoor adventure; the importance of such activities is recognised by the council; the website does have reference to initiatives with young people to get them involved in climbing and abseiling. It would be ironic if the city's premier-league venue for practising the sport was to be closed.
Not that many years ago Chris Bonnington pioneered new routes on the buttress live on national TV, and when I climbed it last year the experience was just as gripping and inspirational. There were no TV cameras for me, just two small children straining on tiptoes to see over the railing as their father explained we were safe because we were using special ropes and harnesses, wearing helmets and were very skilled and experienced. Their excitement, (and mine) was testament to the power of this amazing location to capture the imagination.
Sadly a solicitor acquaintance of mine lost his life in suicide in exactly the same place recently. He chose to kill himself; I chose to find adventure, and affirmation of everything that is good about life. The suspension bridge buttress facilitated both choices and the council is banning mine. Very few climbers get into difficulties and require public expense to rescue them. Certainly it is nothing compared to the problems caused by other social activities. Climbing on the suspension bridge buttress is a lot safer than walking through the city centre on a Saturday night.
I would urge the council to think again about this decision, at the very least explain itself and offer the subject for informed debate.
Hi Terry,
I've been searching the BCC website without success, trying to find out if the Council has indeed banned access to the Suspension Bridge Buttress to climbers.
If it is true I would like to see some justification for the decision, which has had the effect of depriving the city of a unique and iconic amenity. Bristol is regarded worldwide as a cultural centre for outdoor adventure; the importance of such activities is recognised by the council; the website does have reference to initiatives with young people to get them involved in climbing and abseiling. It would be ironic if the city's premier-league venue for practising the sport was to be closed.
Not that many years ago Chris Bonnington pioneered new routes on the buttress live on national TV, and when I climbed it last year the experience was just as gripping and inspirational. There were no TV cameras for me, just two small children straining on tiptoes to see over the railing as their father explained we were safe because we were using special ropes and harnesses, wearing helmets and were very skilled and experienced. Their excitement, (and mine) was testament to the power of this amazing location to capture the imagination.
Sadly a solicitor acquaintance of mine lost his life in suicide in exactly the same place recently. He chose to kill himself; I chose to find adventure, and affirmation of everything that is good about life. The suspension bridge buttress facilitated both choices and the council is banning mine. Very few climbers get into difficulties and require public expense to rescue them. Certainly it is nothing compared to the problems caused by other social activities. Climbing on the suspension bridge buttress is a lot safer than walking through the city centre on a Saturday night.
I would urge the council to think again about this decision, at the very least explain itself and offer the subject for informed debate.
I've had a response from the Bristol Evening Post; they say they knew nothing about this and are interested in the story. I referred them to this site to confirm my information and they have asked if I would talk to them about the issue. I said yes, on the basis that I am a local climber who cares about what's going on. However I am not a BMC rep, am not up to date with the latest developments of this problem and don't want to tread on anyone else's toes, so if you're already doing this on behalf of BMC and would prefer if I kept out please let me know and I'll be happy to comply. Otherwise I'll cheerfully talk to them.
In reply to all:
So far, just sounding out everyone, it seems like there's a fair amount of support for making SBB a cause celebre.
Can I just confirm that noone's actually been kicked off yet, they had quite a convenient opportunity to say something today and noone noticed but the tourists.
Would someone qualified in legalese please like to inform us that people wouldn't be breaking the law by flouting the ban.
P.S. 507 have signed the online petition now. Can people please not sign it twice (Matthias) as it brings the whole thing's credibility down. And if you have an OBE (Patrick) you might like to put that after your name (they can't take it away from you for being politically active).
So far, just sounding out everyone, it seems like there's a fair amount of support for making SBB a cause celebre.
Can I just confirm that noone's actually been kicked off yet, they had quite a convenient opportunity to say something today and noone noticed but the tourists.
Would someone qualified in legalese please like to inform us that people wouldn't be breaking the law by flouting the ban.
P.S. 507 have signed the online petition now. Can people please not sign it twice (Matthias) as it brings the whole thing's credibility down. And if you have an OBE (Patrick) you might like to put that after your name (they can't take it away from you for being politically active).
In reply to Pete:
Petition signed.
Made a comment about the added value of the bridge tourist experience, I remember the interest and excitement of people watching us climb and asking us questions.
Petition signed.
Made a comment about the added value of the bridge tourist experience, I remember the interest and excitement of people watching us climb and asking us questions.
In reply to Humpty Dangler: Excellent email. Couldn't put the case any better. Will be interested to see any reply that you get.
You can easily find out who your councillors are and write to them by going to this site http://www.writetothem.com/ and entering your postcode.
In reply to Eric Herring:
I thought this was a pointless post until I realised that next month it's may and you're a genius.
THEY'RE COMING UP FOR REELECTION!
I don't think spamming them is helpful, we want them to think that everyone is turnign out independently will vote on this issue. I now in my ward it was 7 votes one way in 206 then 5 the other last year, and I haven't been assaulted by the usual barrage of junk mail from them (sorry they're called polling cards) so I can only assume we're not
hacing a new councillor this year in my ward/. Are any other Bristol wards being contested - is it too much to hope that any of the others are hanging by as big a knife edge as here? In Southville you'd need 20, 30 climbers agreeing to this and we could have a councillor on our side. I can think of 5 of us already.
I thought this was a pointless post until I realised that next month it's may and you're a genius.
THEY'RE COMING UP FOR REELECTION!
I don't think spamming them is helpful, we want them to think that everyone is turnign out independently will vote on this issue. I now in my ward it was 7 votes one way in 206 then 5 the other last year, and I haven't been assaulted by the usual barrage of junk mail from them (sorry they're called polling cards) so I can only assume we're not
hacing a new councillor this year in my ward/. Are any other Bristol wards being contested - is it too much to hope that any of the others are hanging by as big a knife edge as here? In Southville you'd need 20, 30 climbers agreeing to this and we could have a councillor on our side. I can think of 5 of us already.
In reply to Paz:
Go to http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/ then put in your postcode
then click the 'elections page' link and it will tell you automatically whether or not there are any elections due in your ward.
Unfortunately an election is not due in my ward.
Nevertheless, even if no election is due now, councillors are aware that elections do take place eventually and they will not want to antagonise potential voters without good reason
Go to http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/ then put in your postcode
then click the 'elections page' link and it will tell you automatically whether or not there are any elections due in your ward.
Unfortunately an election is not due in my ward.
Nevertheless, even if no election is due now, councillors are aware that elections do take place eventually and they will not want to antagonise potential voters without good reason
In reply to Eric Herring: Cheers, but you use that you'd be forgiven for thinking they weren';t happenign anywhere. Not in southville anyway either, or apparently anywhere in Bristol. Can you or someone rewrite the letter you wrote into a template anyone canuse please? So on the off chance that councillors outside of Bristol might be able to affect Bristol council's decision, by putting pressure on through the party machine or by any other mechanism.
Citizens of the following places, The BMC needs you. You have until April 16th (that's a week on wednesday) to register to vote, which means you should probably write to all the candidates in your ward by this week:
East Midlands.
Derby
Bassetlaw
Lincoln City
West Lindsey
Daventry
Amber Valley (you could ask them about Eastwood rocks too)
Eastern England.
Basildon
Brentwood
Broxbourne
Cambridge
Castle Point
Colchester
Epping Forest
Great Yarmouth
Harlow
Hertsmere
Huntingdonshire
Ipswich
North Hertfordshire
Norwich
Peterborough
Rochford
South Cambridgeshire
Southend-on-Sea
St Albans
Stevenage
Three Rivers
Thurrock
Watford
Waveney
Welwyn Hatfield
North East England.
Hartlepool
Sunderland
South Tyneside
Gateshead
Newcastle
North Tyneside
Chester-le-Street
Derwentside
Durham City
Easington
Sedgefield
Teesdale
Wear Valley
Berwick
Alnwick
Tynedale
Castle Morpeth
Blyth
Wansbeck
North West England.
Barrow-in Furness
Blackburn with Darwen
Bolton
Burnley
Bury
Carlisle
Chester
Ellesmere Port and Neston
Vale Royal
Chorley
Congleton
Crewe and Nantwich
Macclesfield
Halton
Hyndburn
Knowsley
Liverpool
Manchester
Oldham
Pendle
Preston
Rochdale
Rossendale
Salford
Sefton
South Lakeland
St Helens
Stockport
Tameside
Trafford
Warrington
West Lancashire
Wigan
Wirral
South East England.
Adur
Basingstoke & Deane
Cherwell
Crawley
Eastleigh
Elmbridge
Fareham
Gosport
Hart
Hastings
Havant
Maidstone
Milton Keynes
Mole Valley
Oxford
Portsmouth
Reading
Reigate & Banstead
Runnymede
Rushmoor
Slough
Southampton
Swale
Tandridge
Tunbridge Wells
West Oxfordshire
Winchester
Woking
Wokingham
Worthing
South West England.
Cheltenham
Gloucester
Plymouth
Purbeck
Stroud
Swindon
Weymouth & Portland
Exeter
West Midlands.
Nuneaton and Bedworth
Cannock Chase
Newcastle Under Lyme
Redditch
Rugby
Stratford
Tamworth
Worcester
Wyre Forest
Birmingham
Coventry
Sandwell
Dudley
Solihull
Walsall
Wolverhampton
Stoke on Trent
Yorkshire and Humberside.
Craven
Harrogate
Kingston Upon Hull
NE Lincs
Bradford
Calderdale
Kirklees
Leeds
Wakefield
Barnsley
Doncaster
Rotherham
Sheffield
Obviously 30 london boroughs are being contested too.
I'm sorry I can't find the wards of wales o here:
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/elections/elections2008.cfm and I'm really osrry but I didn't bother looking for anywhere else.
Tomorrow proper we'll discuss tactical voting. If you are aware that your ward's result hangs in the balance then please let us all know.
Citizens of the following places, The BMC needs you. You have until April 16th (that's a week on wednesday) to register to vote, which means you should probably write to all the candidates in your ward by this week:
East Midlands.
Derby
Bassetlaw
Lincoln City
West Lindsey
Daventry
Amber Valley (you could ask them about Eastwood rocks too)
Eastern England.
Basildon
Brentwood
Broxbourne
Cambridge
Castle Point
Colchester
Epping Forest
Great Yarmouth
Harlow
Hertsmere
Huntingdonshire
Ipswich
North Hertfordshire
Norwich
Peterborough
Rochford
South Cambridgeshire
Southend-on-Sea
St Albans
Stevenage
Three Rivers
Thurrock
Watford
Waveney
Welwyn Hatfield
North East England.
Hartlepool
Sunderland
South Tyneside
Gateshead
Newcastle
North Tyneside
Chester-le-Street
Derwentside
Durham City
Easington
Sedgefield
Teesdale
Wear Valley
Berwick
Alnwick
Tynedale
Castle Morpeth
Blyth
Wansbeck
North West England.
Barrow-in Furness
Blackburn with Darwen
Bolton
Burnley
Bury
Carlisle
Chester
Ellesmere Port and Neston
Vale Royal
Chorley
Congleton
Crewe and Nantwich
Macclesfield
Halton
Hyndburn
Knowsley
Liverpool
Manchester
Oldham
Pendle
Preston
Rochdale
Rossendale
Salford
Sefton
South Lakeland
St Helens
Stockport
Tameside
Trafford
Warrington
West Lancashire
Wigan
Wirral
South East England.
Adur
Basingstoke & Deane
Cherwell
Crawley
Eastleigh
Elmbridge
Fareham
Gosport
Hart
Hastings
Havant
Maidstone
Milton Keynes
Mole Valley
Oxford
Portsmouth
Reading
Reigate & Banstead
Runnymede
Rushmoor
Slough
Southampton
Swale
Tandridge
Tunbridge Wells
West Oxfordshire
Winchester
Woking
Wokingham
Worthing
South West England.
Cheltenham
Gloucester
Plymouth
Purbeck
Stroud
Swindon
Weymouth & Portland
Exeter
West Midlands.
Nuneaton and Bedworth
Cannock Chase
Newcastle Under Lyme
Redditch
Rugby
Stratford
Tamworth
Worcester
Wyre Forest
Birmingham
Coventry
Sandwell
Dudley
Solihull
Walsall
Wolverhampton
Stoke on Trent
Yorkshire and Humberside.
Craven
Harrogate
Kingston Upon Hull
NE Lincs
Bradford
Calderdale
Kirklees
Leeds
Wakefield
Barnsley
Doncaster
Rotherham
Sheffield
Obviously 30 london boroughs are being contested too.
I'm sorry I can't find the wards of wales o here:
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/elections/elections2008.cfm and I'm really osrry but I didn't bother looking for anywhere else.
Tomorrow proper we'll discuss tactical voting. If you are aware that your ward's result hangs in the balance then please let us all know.
Looks like good news!!! Keep signing that petition though just in case the council does make a definite policy over SBB
In reply to Paz:
I live in Bedminster but if you are serious about mustering up a councillor I have some friends who I could encourage to support. We've had "green candidates" why not an "outdoor candidate"?
I live in Bedminster but if you are serious about mustering up a councillor I have some friends who I could encourage to support. We've had "green candidates" why not an "outdoor candidate"?
In reply to richard harries:
I wasn't going to propose anyone stands, just that everyone in a ward with unsafe seats writes to all their candidates. It appears SBB climbing's all been sorted now and the ban was never enforced anyway.
Here there's no election for at least a year yet, and an outdoor councillor might as well be a Green too (the only conflict being the destruction of several excellent climbing areas by the Severn Barrage at Brean).
It shoudl be pretty easy to find what the majorities were in those wards last time round. It doesn't sem tactical voting is as popular this year as people can't stick it to Blair anymore. So anyone feel free to use that list to promote your own cause, a free Tibet or something nice.
I wasn't going to propose anyone stands, just that everyone in a ward with unsafe seats writes to all their candidates. It appears SBB climbing's all been sorted now and the ban was never enforced anyway.
Here there's no election for at least a year yet, and an outdoor councillor might as well be a Green too (the only conflict being the destruction of several excellent climbing areas by the Severn Barrage at Brean).
It shoudl be pretty easy to find what the majorities were in those wards last time round. It doesn't sem tactical voting is as popular this year as people can't stick it to Blair anymore. So anyone feel free to use that list to promote your own cause, a free Tibet or something nice.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Loading Notifications...