UKC

Whats the point in conservation, switching lights off, recycling and frugality when abominations like this exist?

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2008/02/where-is-all-oil-money-g...

Can anyone post something more amazingly ridiculous than Dubai?

In reply to woolsack: I've been there to see my dad. People should have invested into the company that makes concrete out there!

The large buildings are impressive, but the fact that EVERYWHERE you look there are new concrete tower blocks going up really and truely i can't understand how it's sustainable? most of the flats already up don't seem to be full as well.

The tower my dad lives in has something like 180 flats. Only 60odd were occupied.

Stupid place, it really is.

In reply to woolsack:
Castles made of sand...

The palm islands are made from sand dredged up and compacted. There were fears that an earth quake could cause the sand to "liquidify" (sp). Like when you are at the beach on the wet sand it holds your weight, but if you trample up and down on the same spot, you sink in.

Building out onto the sea is a good idea, as the only other way a country can increase its land mass is via a war. Also, the buildings look nicely futuristic. When they run out of oil, they will just fill the desert with solar panels and use that to supply power and sell the surplus.

In reply to dread-i:




La-la land then?

In reply to woolsack:

I have fond memories of the place when it was little more than a village to the expat community -- everyone knew just about everyone else. 1988.

I went back a few years later and it had grown but was basically recognisable as the same place. It started to go daft around 2000 when I left, and since then development has gone completely berserk. Dubai virtually exhausted it's oil and gas reserves years ago, but it proved an attractive place for a variety of shady businessmen to ply their trade in a relatively tax and regulation free area. They realised that a booming construction market kept the economy turning over, and becoming the economic hub of the region was a good idea because any businessman with money in Saudi, India, Iran, Lebanon or Pakistan or any other slightly unstable country in the region wanted to keep his money somewhere close at hand and relatively safe from an odious or corrupt regime. The great con was getting people to part with money for construction projects that were not yet built.

The Bubble's gonna burst in a big way one day.

Qatar is trying to emulate Dubai as it's got virtually unlimited resources of Natural Gas and an indigenous population the size of a small city city. The Emir has got to spend his money on something - and he's got an ego to match his wallet. He wants to be a bigger cheese than Sheikh Mo.

Seriously though from what friends who are stil over there are telling me, it's not a place I will be rushing back to even for a holiday. The best days went with the passing of the last century!

In reply to woolsack:

Seen this? http://www.skidubai.com/dubai/mountain-ski-dome

Yes, a greenhouse full with snow and polar bears in the f*cking desert- they really *are* taking the piss.

In reply to woolsack:
It all seems very near current sea level...

In reply to Iain Forrest:

Nearly all of the built up bits of the Emirates are built on low lying or reclaimed land. In order to construct any of the foundations, or dig trenches for services, a massive amount of de-watering has to be done, adding greatly to construction costs. Due to the harsh climate, high salinity in the ground, and general disinterest in maintenance, most buildings rarely last for more than about 30 years before they are pulled down. However most property owners have made a handsome profit in that timescale, so don't give a sh!t. Same goes for global warming and sea level rise -- they'll have made their pile and moved on before it's going to affect them. Short termism rules - OK. (and there's one mug born every minute)

In reply to Lord of Starkness: they're all quite tall buildings though - perhaps they'll just put the windows through on the first couple of storeys and build some bridges

there are a lot of conferencs in dubai so i'll probably get to go there for free eventually - i expect it to be awful - i'm thinking portsmouth docks redevelopment but with gold taps

In reply to woolsack:

There are even plans in the northern UAE to create a ski resort in the mountains above Ras Al Khaimah at over 1500m -- The mountains rise to almost 2000m. In winter, overnight frost occurs on the tops, and very occasionally a light sprinking of snow occurs. With the advance in artificial snow making techniques, they reckon that they should be able to have a 2 month ski season, and that some daft well heeled buggrs will pay for the privilege to ski there.

I've been told by people who have an ear close to the ground that access roads are under construction, and work is underway on other bits of infrastructure.

So what about Wooly's original point?

Why should I feel bad when I forget and leave my TV on standby overnight?

The Ent

In reply to Enty:


Because it's costing you money?

In reply to Enty:
Tend to agree - up to a point.
I don't think we can make much difference to carbon dioxide emissions, as it requires the whole world to do so together, and that seems vanishingly unlikely to happen.
What we can do, though, is start adapting our lifestyles to use less oil. This seems quite a good plan, as there will be less oil available very soon, and it'll cause a lot less problems if we adapt gradually than if we are forced to change over suddenly.

In reply to woolsack:

I love the idea of the "World Islands" - but who the f*ck is going to pay to have a holiday in "Afghanistan"? Or "Sudan"?

In reply to hutchm:


Bono? Geldof? Green Day?

Bad taste perhaps ...

Actually the word is that the World is not selling well. Undaunted the developer is pressing ahead with The Universe. I kid you not.

http://www.thedubailife.com/index.php/main/blog/the_universe_by_nakheel_pic...

In reply to tobyfk:

Looks like an ecoli outbreak to me

In reply to woolsack:


Abu Dhabi is now aiming for a classier take on its sister city. With much more oil money to spend. Dubai, in fact, has very little - its growth is debt-fuelled.

Guggenheim, Louvre, Zaha Hadid, Frank Gehry, Jean Nouvel, etc vanity projects
http://www.archnewsnow.com/features/Feature218.htm

Eco-city (yeah, right ...)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jan/21/climatechange.energy

bonkers skyscrapers
http://www.sorouh.com/Developments/OurProjects/Details/?pid=1

Sadly the intellectual giants who run this place neglected to consider where all the architects, civil engineers, consultants, sales-totty and so forth needed for this $100 billion splurge would live whilst the buildings go up. So now we have 100% per annum rent inflation, 30% supermarket price hikes, over-capacity schools, etc, etc

In reply to woolsack: Wow, won't such a thing be a red rag to terrorists? from what I've heard its been built on what would or could be described as third world slave labour, funny how money flocks to such things, not that I'm a raving leftie or anything, but has 'ethics' lost all meaning in our world?

In reply to woolsack:


Abu Dhabi is now aiming for a classier take on its sister city. With much more oil money to spend. Dubai, in fact, has very little - its growth is debt-fuelled.

Guggenheim, Louvre, Zaha Hadid, Frank Gehry, Jean Nouvel, etc vanity projects
http://www.archnewsnow.com/features/Feature218.htm

Eco-city (yeah, right ...)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jan/21/climatechange.energy

bonkers skyscrapers
http://www.sorouh.com/Developments/OurProjects/Details/?pid=1

Sadly the intellectual giants who run this place neglected to consider where all the architects, civil engineers, consultants, sales-totty and so forth needed for this $100 billion splurge would live whilst the buildings go up. So now we have 100% per annum rent inflation, 30% supermarket price hikes, over-capacity schools, etc, etc

In reply to woolsack:

The artists impressions always look so much better than the reality.

In reply to ICE:

Where do you think the super rich who fund some of the nutters have their money invested? They are not going to invest in somewhere that is likely to be a target. I hardly think they're going to encourage the people they support to sh1t in their own nests.

In reply to Lord of Starkness: Unless they want to do a Silverstein?

In reply to Lord of Starkness: Since I very few super rich or nutters (ok, that last one isn't true) I have no idea where they keep their money, but thanks for the info.

In reply to woolsack:

If only Hieronymus Bosch were alive today! This is the 21st-century version of the Tower of Babel. Shows just how important Islamic culture is once they get some big money in their hands.

In reply to ICE: I think there should have been a know in there somewhere.

In reply to ICE:


Two different issues there.

First, it's not 'our' world. The UAE - primarily Abu Dhabi and Dubai - is a non-democratic federation of monarchies, and can do what the hell it likes. As I have written on here several times before, we need to get used to the fact that power and money are flowing to 'nasty' places; not just the gulf but China and Russia too. We can of course choose not to enrich them by not buying their oil (gulf, Russia) or £5 picnic chairs (China). Or we can hope that in the long run, integration into the global economy brings normalisation on human rights, environmental policies and all that other stuff.

Second, why hasn't the UAE suffered terrorist attacks (so far - my fingers are crossed). People who know better than me say that internal security here is very good indeed. There's probably also a 'not-shitting-in-your-own-backyard' factor. And perhaps some groups do get paid off by the governments here - I don't know. I doubt there is one simple explanation.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


It is noticeable that you don't see many mosques in the new development plans. Abu Dhabi has a fairly hefty grand mosque project - the largest in the world until the Saudis complained - on the airport side of the island; probably to try to fool visitors that the Prophet still holds sway here.

In reply to tobyfk: Those pictures are amazing. Like a modern day Blackpool of the East

In reply to johnj:

Without the piles of sick on the pavement?

The Ent

In reply to Enty:


or the roses

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBRNexKb-Cg&feature=related

In reply to woolsack:


Scary.

We have been looking at stuff out there and just can't see the longevity of the projects or the endorse the economics behind it.

I am thinking of Ozymandius as I type.

In reply to woolsack:

I think it is a fantastic place from a visual point of view. Very futuristic and some interesting "vision". Of course I am extremely dubious about its sustainability. It is a fantasy island of wealth resting on a sea of underlying problems the indigenous population don't get a lookin and even find it hard to be understood in their own language as most of the infrastructure is run by and for a foriegn workforce (acording to one person I know who works there). The problem isn't conservation (although that is an issue) the problem is a wealthy elite pouring its money into vast gestures of conspicuous affluence with the avowed intent of making money for that elite at the expense of its own people.

In reply to tobyfk:

as opposed to the Profit who really does rule the roost

In reply to Enty:


That's because there is have a small army of pavement cleaners who appear in the wee small hours after the pubs and clubs have shut, to remove any unwanted 'pavement pizzas' that the legions of stray cats that lurk by almost every rubbish skip do not hoover up.

In reply to blindedbyscience:


Are you sure your friend is talking about the same country? The 'infrastructure' here is run by a foreign workforce but unambiguously for the benefit of the local nationals. They are raking it in - principally through government subsidies, rents on properties they own and legally-mandated 50% silent-partner participation in virtually all of the private sector - with at minimum six-figure level income and often far more. And like the nouveau riche anywhere they aren't shy of spending it conspicuously. Ask any Porsche dealer, Russian pimp or diabetes specialist in the region.

In reply to woolsack:


Just a thought: but even if Dubai was still just a bunch of palm leaf shacks by the Gulf, there'd still be desert megacities in the US like Phoenix and Las Vegas to be upset by. In fact Phoenix metro district has about twice the population of the whole of the UAE and is probably growing at the same sort of pace.

In reply to tobyfk:
I think my friend was refering to the desert arabs and general underclass rather than the upper eschelon. However I stand to be corrected as I have no personal experience of Dubai other than a stop over to Nepal

In reply to woolsack:

Often ask myself this same question. As a long time FOE I have been recycling and saving energy for years and yet I feel that I have had precious little impact on the Planet. We should have tackled global warming decades ago when we still had the chance but now that it is enevitable (by my understanding of current scientific thinking) we are all clamouring to reduce our carbon footprints etc. Having shoved the runaway train into motion and stoked the boiler fit to burst only now as the big DANGER STOP sign hurtles into view are we considering applying the brakes.

In reply to blindedbyscience:


Well, it depends what you call 'underclass'. As you'll glean from my previous post, some unfortunates here do scrape by on only $250,000-500,000 pa plus free land, housing and other handouts. Some of them will no doubt be horribly jealous of a cousin whose parents lucked out in some land giveaway in the 1970s and now live off - for example - the $ multi-million rent from the Sheraton that got built on it ...

Beyond that, your friend is terribly confused. Oh and they are all desert arabs (or The Bedu as Peter O'Toole would have it).

In reply to tobyfk:

That's my thread for next week!

In reply to Nevis-the-cat:


An interesting aspect of the UAE is that interest rates are falling, despite high'ish inflation and double digit GDP growth, because of the currency's dollar peg. I'm actually surprised that property folk - who I don't perceive to take long-run equilibrium economics seriously - wouldn't be quite excited by that?

In reply to tobyfk:

Not all UAE nationals are in the very well off category -- once you leave the honeypots of Dubai and Abu Dhabi, the income per head drops somewhat.

You've only got to visit some of the rural areas of Sharjah, Fujairah and RAK emirates to witness that -- however most of the young people have headed in to the cities, where subsidised jobs and housing await. Saying that they are considerably better off than the peasant farmers of most middle eastern countries, and are subsidised by the government to stay in the villages. Most can still afford to employ ultra cheap labour from the sub continent to actually do most of the backbreaking farming work and herding of animals, whilst they swan around in their air conditioned 4WD's.

At least that was the case until about 8 years ago!

In reply to tobyfk:

And as long as there are people with money to spend who believe that they can get something for nothing, Dubai will continue to expand. The really smart ones are the people who are selling the dreams!

In reply to Lord of Starkness:


Detail, detail. I think all UAE nationals, regardless of emirate, get the basic Sheikh Zayed driven subsidies: free land, hefty allowances for each child, etc, etc. I'd guess even a RAK or Fujariah family have $100,000 pa or so to spend. I'm sure you'd agree that the notion expressed above that there's an exploited underclass of locals is very wide of the mark.

Incidentally, the oil price must be a fair bit higher than when you were here?

In reply to tobyfk:

Per capita, the UAE has far and away the highest C02 emissions of any country in the world.

Not surprising, really.

In reply to tobyfk:

Oil Price is not the only thing that's changed.

My salary was fixed in Sterling and during the 5 years I was there the exchange rate went from 6.20 to 5.20 the £. It meant what I was able to send home each month was secure, but I had less disposable income whilst in the Emirates. The tight Asian I worked for also never gave me a pay rise. He paid me off just before the Dubai Economy went mad, and after I'd put a lot of quality systems in place and reckoned his newly graduated son could pick up the reins. I was the only one of the management team who was not from his family (and was the only westerner in his company).


It was not all bad, for it beat being on the dole in West Cumbria, and I was able to send back I would have been able to earn in the UK before tax, and still live reasonably well in Sharjah as a bachelor for most of the year on the rest. I used one of my leave tickets each year to bring the missus out for 6 months over the winters whilst my son was at university.

From what Tim tells me, wild horses would not drag me back to Dubai now for anything other than a brief visit -- and I think the lack of freedom in the mountains, and traffic mayhem nowadays would take the edge of any enjoyment I might otherwise have had.

During my time there, I had a number of very pleasant encounters with locals in the desert and mountains, and found them much better than their better off townie arab cousins. The mountain Shihuh were amazing.

Dubai and the Emirates have the best developments ever !
They know their oil wealth is finite and are building for the future.
Of course sourpuss greenies will hate what they are doing, but sourpuss greenies abhor their very existence and wish they were never born as they consume they very milk of the earth.

In reply to MalcC:


Sorry mate, they cannot compete with the new Lidl supermarket that has just opened in Castleford, it's like the 8th wonder of the world to the locals...........

In reply to DougG:

Actually I thought 'we' were second.

Memo to self: remember to turn off ignition in both SUVs when not actually in use ...

In reply to Lord of Starkness:


Talking of which, I guess a lot of these less-well-off people you refer to - like the Shihuh - were technically Omanis? Therefore not hitched up at all to the UAE gravy train.

In reply to tobyfk:

The Shihuh were certainly Omanis, but some of the people in the likes of Wadi Ghalilah, Wadi Qada'a and the Tawyain and Asimah areas of RAK emirate were certainly Emiratis (or Emmoroids as old Len Willis used to call them).

I'll digress here, cos it's a story worth telling -- you never know, some others who post or visit here may find it of interest.

Now Len was a character - a true Northumbrian -- he was in his 70's when I was over there. He was with Geoff Oliver on the FA of Ichabod on Scafell East Buttress in 1960, and hadn't climbed for years when we met up with him whilst he was out for a walk one day in Wadi Bih. Had some great days out with him, doing 'Jungle Book Wadi', and Jebel Qiwih by moonlight. His knees were a bit arthritic, but he still managed to follow me up the odd VS. I even managed to get his name on a FA in Wadi Bih in 2000 -- though it was only V Diff!

He married a lovely Lebanese lady, and had lived in Sharjah for many years. Sadly, Len suffered a stroke not long after I left, and my e-mail contact with him dried up, as did John Gregory's. I know one of his daughters took up a post at Sharjah University to be closer to him, but whether Len survived for any length of time, I do no know.

Len wrote an article on the UAE scene for the FRCC journal of 2000, and when I last saw him he showed me his almost completed and well illustrated book on Persian Carpets about which he was a bit of an expert.