UKC

Interested to hear if you hate him, why?

And can you think of any similar contemporary writers?

I like him, which is why I found this interesting –

The quartz parliament - Robert Macfarlane
http://books.guardian.co.uk/commonground/story/0,,1547252,00.html

In reply to JiNTANGL:
Definitely a force for good. He sometimes irritates me style-wise, and I don't agree with everything he says, but I've been reading his work since just after I first started climbing and I've always found it stimulating and often illuminating. He frequently says things that we don't want to hear and that's valuable.

In reply to JiNTANGL: Love reading Perrin`s stuff- even if I don`t always agree with it. There aren`t many grown ups writing climbing articles.

In reply to JiNTANGL:

Irritating, intelligent, tedious, interesting, all those and you sometimes need a dictionary to read some of his stuff but not to be ignored.

Got a couple of his books.

In reply to JiNTANGL: The only thing he did that I didn't like was to write a sequel to 'One green Bottle'. apart from that his writing has been ok.

In reply to JiNTANGL:

I didn't manage to get through the villain. Found the style pretty wanky. My gf says I should have persevered though.

In reply to JiNTANGL: his Don Whillans book is excellent, a really good and by all accounts accurate, fair book.

I also enjoy his articles in Climber. Old School stuff, great!

In reply to rginns:

>by all accounts accurate

PMSL, it raised my blood pressure reading all the wrong stuff in it while in hospital. Wrong dates and sequence of events of what I know of, others in there will probably find the same.

In reply to JiNTANGL:

Not hate, but used to get really frustrated with his long and convoluted sentences. When he write a little more concisely (which he seems to have done lately in his Climbers articles), I really like reading what he has to say.

In reply to sutty:

Also articulate and grammatically correct. Things often missing in (especially) magazine articles.

In reply to JiNTANGL:

He's great and he stands up for a core set of values.

In reply to grumsta:
My gf says I should have persevered though.

You should and still could.

In reply to JiNTANGL:

He's an excellent writer; people who don't like his writing are without exception in my experience simply people who are not very good at reading.

Is that link a review or just a random article about him?

I can't help feeling 'once one of the finest rock-climbers in the world' puts it a little bit strongly, although it depends on how many of the finest, of course.

Sutty, why not post what you recall differently? Lots of people would be very interested, including Jim P, I'm sure.

jcm

In reply to JiNTANGL: like others have said, can be irritating, but mostly excellent.

His essay "Will" about his son, written after Will committed suicide, was beautiful.

In reply to sutty:

You're probably in a better position to judge that, although there is often a lot of slippage in memory writing. Is this from personal witnessing or generally accepted information?
I don't think you can get everything right, especially from the amount of content in the book, and there are always those who dislike the style of writing about how other people feel when it comes from a third party.
I think he does however come at the book with an honest approach.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I think I did post on the 'sutty is poorly' thread after Helen mentioned me getting annoyed in hospital about it.

In reply to rginns:

It would have been more honest if he had replied to me when I said I could supply some details years before he wrote most of the book.

It is a good read, tainted by the suspicion that other things may also be incorrect after finding errors I know of.

In reply to sutty:

In which case, the onus is on Mr. Perrin! that's a shame, I'm sure your help would have been valuable to the book


Given the above, I could understand your frustration.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


It's an overview of Perrin as part of 'a series of essays on the relationship between writers and the landscape' by Robert Macfarlane. I'm interested in writing that can combine the sublime with the social which is why I came across it.

"For Perrin, taking the high ground does not lead one to superiority or righteousness, but to humility. "I was annihilated," he writes of an experience on Jacob's Ladder in the Peak District, "had no existence, simply looked out at the inconceivable beauty of the world that had detached me from any concept of self in order that I might see."

I agree with your point about people and reading I think that's where a lot of the 'big words, complex sentences' criticsm comes from. For me he's a writer who climbs not a climber who writes.

In reply to JiNTANGL:

To me its a bit like Monty Python, when its good its very good, otherwise its tedious. A lot of the time he seems to me to be a writer in search of a subject, and when he has'nt got the subject its tedious.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

>He's an excellent writer; people who don't like his writing are without >exception in my experience simply people who are not very good at >reading.

Couldn't agree more.

In reply to Derbyshire Ben:

What arrogance on the part of all the people saying that if you don't like his writing you must be no good at reading. Are you unable to accept that people might have a different opinion to you without declaring them inferior? Personally I find his writing rather pretentious and cliched, but obviously that's just because I am not very good at reading.

In reply to JiNTANGL: I would not say I'm a poor reader, but the use of over complicated sentence structure, gigantic words, when smaller ones will suffice is not necessarily good writing and neither does it make great reading.

I liked his stuff until Kendal a year or two ago, he hosted a relaxed chat of the old boys, which was fine. Then followed the most staged, rehearsed interview of Perrin possible, it was a joke. It was like "tell me about the time... " ..."oh it's good you asked me about that because..".

Came across as being totally up his own ar..

In reply to grumsta:

I know that sounds like an elitist argument (and it is) but I'm not sure I've seen any other writers that write about climbing in the way that he does where it's about more than just climbing. I think his style is justified as it brings some weight to his subject.

He does disappear up his own arse on occasions and he does sometimes struggle for subject matter but maybe that's the nature of writing a regular column?

I'd be really interested to know if anybody could suggest any rival to Perrin? He does seem a bit out on his own. Good or bad.

In reply to JiNTANGL:

I think "Hate" is a bit strong. I suppose I am more of an average reader.

In reply to JiNTANGL:

Thanks for the link to the MacFarlane article. Unlike MacFarlane, I prefer those moments in Perrin's writing that don't feel quite so self-consciously literary. And I think the closing point to the piece, that Perrin has written especially well about class relations in British climbing, is on the money. The Villain and some of the essays are a terrific complement to, say, the Hankinson's histories of Edwardians like GW Young.

I can't speak to Perrin's fact-checking, save to say that so far I haven't caught any egregious errors so far.

In reply to JiNTANGL: I have enjoyed many of his essays - and his historical introduction to the old Ogwen guide is simply beautiful (I can't think of a piece of climbing writing that more perfectly captures the spirit of a place). However, I found The Villain a rather tendentious hatchet job.

In reply to Derbyshire Ben:

Couldn't agree less. On the rare occasion that JP has something to say I have enjoyed his articles, but ultimately if being a 'good reader' means confusing polysyllabic pretension with a fresh writing style then I suppose I am a bad reader. To continue in the vein of cheaply patronising any disagreeing viewpoint, I suspect JP's writing is much favoured by the sort of person who reads Proust to impress people, overlooking the fact that Proust's canon was largely pretty vacuous.

In my humble opinion in their day Mark Twight was more provocative, and Ed Drummond more poetic.

I look forward to a cheaply patronising riposte from the UKC litterati.

A good few years ago my frind and I were climbing at Brimham and chanced upon Mr Perrin lounging around beneath Allans Crack. We quietly got on with climbing our route and afterwards passed the time of day.

A few weeks later an article was published in one of the climbing mags by Mr Perrin which clearly described the events of that day. In it he referred to us as being 'dour and uncommunicative' for not immediately engaging him in conversation!

Since then I have never felt much affinity with Mr Perrin or his writings though I wouldn't go so so far as to say it's a hate thing!

In reply to Hammy:


Maybe you didn't speak Welsh.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
>

Jim put a lot into researching an area swamped by myth and not a little beer bottle specs. He spoke to many of the principals. I'm sure he would welcome any alternate views as John says. It is also true that much anecdote was missed out - some due to lack of space, some simply scurrilous, some unverifiable. It still seemed like a good read and a decent representation of the man and times. But we'd all like a bit more gossip! JRG

In reply to JiNTANGL:

I like reading his work, but he doesn't half go on a bit sometimes.

In reply to JiNTANGL:

posing pretentious wannabe academic with his footnotes and references. Definately a candidate for lifetime pseud awards!

In reply to steev:

So there I was, going on a bit in the back bar of the Owen Gelndwyr - or was it the old Withered Arm in Woodhouse? - my memory discombobulates chiaroscurically in my dotage. Dot Parsons was there I recall, as was the Viscount himself, peering myopically at the coruscated wall - Crew himself might have looked in, all of us pulling up on mono's years before they became modern parlance.........


Jim is the most consistently interesting writer in the UK climbing world imo - shame I can't seem to get hold of his collected writings.

In reply to Hammy:

I remember that article - that was when he was doing his 'On and off the rock' series in Climber wasn't it? Funnily enough, the only thing I remember about it was the bit you mention. I think you just happened to come along when he had a point to make about how much less sociable 'modern' climbers were. He's a bit 'golden age' at times isn't he?

In reply to JiNTANGL:

He regularly brings a tear to my eye.

In reply to JiNTANGL:

I like his books(s) but hate his articles.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I can read perfectly well and I find his writing boring and pretentious ,a bit like your posts.In fact if anyone would like my copy of the Villain (which I was given) they are welcome to it.

In reply to JiNTANGL:

I don't like his style of writing, which is probably a pity, because he may have some interesting things to write about, but I have usually given up by then.

In reply to grumsta:

I, like you, found the style got in the way to begin with. You have to persevere and, for me at least, it starts to work.

I'm interested in Sutty's comments on "The Villain's" accuracy. The whole reason I stuck it out with the book was that I assumed it was factually accurate. If the facts are wrong, is the insight wrong?

In reply to Marc C: 'However, I found The Villain a rather tendentious hatchet job'

Let's not undermine the legend of St Donald of Salford - I guess your university needs all the local figures of note that it can find.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


He is easier to read than Noam Chomsky but I think there is, at times, a stream of consciousness to his writing which can mask a point.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Is your experience wide ranging, or limited to your friends/acquaintances?

In reply to JiNTANGL: i was really excited about The Villain before reading it but as i got further into it i became progressively less interested. for a few months now its been sat there not far from being finished but unlikely ever to be finished. i thought it was cold, worthy, academic and just un-engaging. maybe Jim Perrin was trying to be (too) objective but whatever the reason the book didnt, for me, give a real feel for the subject.

In reply to ksjs:

I came out of hospital in October on page 258, the marker is still there. I bought it the December before.

In reply to JiNTANGL: I don't find him very funny. I much prefer Harry Hill. He does well to climb with one eye though, but he's too fond of Wales to be trusted. Also, I didn't like his constant insinuation that John 'menlove' Edwards was gay. I notice he waited 'til the poor chap wasn't around to protest, before he published his scandalous tome. Back in Edward's day, 'gays' didn't exist. The word 'gay' meant happy, light on one's feet, fond of musicals and fancy cakes, a keeper of a tidy house.

In reply to sutty:

I reckon you should let myself and Darren Jackson write your biography.

I have bought a new jotter (which Helen made me back with old wallpaper) for just this project, and Darren has got some new crayons for his illustrations.

In reply to Derbyshire Ben:

Couldn't disagree more.

I just don't find his writing inclusive, exciting or enthralling. It's a bit dull given the topics he indulges in, actually.

But it's all IMHO. I mean, we can all disagree on what we find good to read, eh?

To borrow from Orwell: A mass of Latin words falls upon the facts like soft snow, blurring the outline and covering up all the details.

On the other hand, I quite like Perrin sometimes.

In reply to JiNTANGL:

I owe my climbing career to Jim Perrin. As a humble walker in the mid 80's I read a review in the Guardian by Labour MP Chris Smith of a book called 'Menlove' by someone called Jim Perrin.
Intrigued...I ordered it from the library and it lit the blue touchpaper for me.

I've since met him a few times....I owe him a dinner he bought me in The Stables...I persuaded him to join me climbing on Arenig Fawr but he couldn't make it...frozen shoulder. The one time he did join me at the crag it was at little Craig Tonnau near Roman Bridge when I was giving his late partner's kids their first taste of climbing on a beautiful summer's evening.

Sadly two tragic events took Jim out of my orbit but he remains one of my heroes. Not just in climbing but his commitment to progressive politics,conservation and the environment.

If you happen to read this Jim... Nick Gough is trying to get in touch.

In reply to JiNTANGL: What happened to his Climber column?

In reply to Sutty..

"Wrong dates and sequence of events of what I know of, others in there will probably find the same"

I'd be interested to know what this means? When I read The Villain, there were bits I enjoyed but overall couldn't decide.. He obviously has a very personal response to DW, not unrelated maybe to his relationship to Joe Brown... I guess there needed to be some redressing of the balance in terms of how glorified maybe DW had become, but it would be interesting to know how balanced the book really is...

I read Bill Peascod's autobiography and it struck me that his view of DW at times in his latter years was much warmer than that period portrayed in The Villain...the only other accounts I'd seen or read were in DW's autobiography, which seemed a bit iffy at times; and in the Leo Dickinson bits of film, which do seem to show him as a bit of a caricature in later life.... who knows.....

In his Essays, "Love" and "Will" are brilliant and really moving, though...

In reply to 220bpm:

Exactly. I loved 'The Villain'(Well, not as much as 'Razzle' but pretty close). Well written, mature, insightful. Where is it? Oh no, I've lent it to someone....