UKC

I spoke to Sonnie Trotter tonight at Dumby and he reported he'd reclimbed Rhapsody earlier today tidying up his style by placing the gear on the lead which he had not done on Monday. He was happy with Monday’s ascent, climbed with gear insitu, as he felt that placing the gear made no difference to the grade.

I'm glad he has done this. Not placing the gear was always something which could be criticised and didn't improve on Dave Macleod’s first ascent style.

By eliminating the crack down climb and long rest I think Sonnie has now improved on Dave's style.

In reply to JLS:

Great, but if you can down-climb to a rest it's not a diminution of the style.

In reply to JLS: Wow!I was actually wondering why the fact that he hadn't placed the gear on lead wasn't being discussed on here, very impressive style.

In reply to john howard 1:
Has he graded it yet?

In reply to JLS:

He's also done an amusing write up on his blog, at Heathrow.

Bill

In reply to james oswald:

From his blog:
"those pictures are for the mags, and so are my exclusive comments about the grade and other such details. Next issue. Hey, I got nothing going on but the rent. Cheers to all."

In reply to JLS: I do not think a second ascent without down climb is a real improvement against a first ascent on a trad route, at which taking 50 footers on gear placed on lead is most likely inevitable (by nowadays top climbing standards at least). Always be aware that maybe nobody would have even tried the crux sequence high above a small wire (which did snap in one of the tries before the actual first ascent). Knowing that it can take a bunch of hard falls without failing (and without rock failure), it is far easier to try (IMHO). They both (Dave Mac and Sonnie T) did an impressive job on the route, but neither one did it better than the other one.

BTW: Why did nobody even ask whether the 2nd ascent was made on preplaced gear if you are now bothering about down climbing to take a rest (where the downclimb is usually pretty tough or the route is relatively easy)?

In reply to JLS:
"sometimes I just want to yell at everyone and say, “YO, CHIIIIILLLLLLL out”. "

That is so canadian...

In reply to ff:

I agree the second ascent is easier than the first and Dave Macleod's effort to climb Rhapsody was astounding but I can't help but prefer a 'style' (wrong word perhaps) that more closely resembles how I might climb a VS. Long down climbs I dare say are valid tactics in the headpointing game but I'm still free to make my own judgement as what I like to see. If you are happy that neither did better than the other then fine, that's your opinion.

In reply to JLS:

I hate to break it to you but how you climb a VS is a world away from how you climb an E11. Your entitled to your own opinion of course but it's a different story worrying about placing gear on lead on a climb like that. I'd say leave the worrying about who did "better" than the other to Sonnie Trotter and Dave Macleod. Hats off to both of them pulling off a climb like that no matter what "style" it was in.

In reply to JLS:

I'm sorry but this is complete bollocks. Eliminating downclimbing is no more an improvement on the style than climbing the route faster top to bottom would be. This isn't ballet.

jcm

In reply to rossjmc:

>Your entitled to your own opinion of course

Absolutely. Except that (a) no-one wants to hear it and (b) he's wrong, that is.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

haha nicely put

In reply to JLS:

Daft question but can a second ascent really be claimed if you have used pre-placed gear? I aint taking anything away from ST especially as he then did it placing gear on the lead and considering the fact i will never come close to climbing half as well as him. I just cant help but feel you cant claim the ascent unless you have placed the gear on lead. Just an opinion I am throwing out there.

In reply to telemarker:

well i think the important thing is that he climbed it bottom to top and i don't think the issue of already placed protection should take away from that.

It could be transferable to any climb ever done if that was the case. How many millions of people who climb regularly anywhere in the world use already-placed protection on climbs, whether it be bolts, pitons, ready made anchors or stuck nuts etc. Does that mean we should discredit them from claiming any sort of ascent because the protection available to them wasn't placed by them.

I don't think that's what climbing should be about, it's not a competion, for most people that is. Fact is he still climbed this incredibly hard route. If you can pull of the 4th ascent without using the protection already placed then perhaps you can make a point that sonnie trotter shouldn't have claimed the ascent. Until then let's leave it to the pros.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


John, FWIW, I am interested to hear JLS's opinion, not least because he's been helpfully reporting from Dumby over the last few weeks, posting up photos of Sonnie Trotter and so on. Your dismissive comment seems remarkably churlish in that context.

As to whether he is wrong, that depends on whether you consider a pedantic or common-sense view of style to be more valid. Down-climbing a route after placing the gear, then taking a long rest before going back up, may be playing within the rules but it's clearly becoming close to stretching them. If Dave Macleod had downclimbed all the way to the ground, untied but left his ropes in place, gone home, flown to Spain to train for a month, rested for a further week then returned to the route would we really consider that a bonafide ascent? Perhaps, but eyebrows would certainly have been raised.

Climbing style is anyway not law and has a perverse tendency to mutate over time; suggesting that we should consider moderating our confidence as to what is right and wrong at any specific moment. In the 70s and early 80s many UK trad routes were routinely climbed yo-yo style, including, I believe, many accepted first ascents. Conversely there was much lower tolerance of extensive top-roping before ascents (for examples, consult duncan on Avon Gorge ethics 'back in the day'). At some point, that came to be seen as invalid, partly because of the purer redpoint style filtering across from sport climbing. Perhaps the next iteration of accepted trad style will be to disdain down-climbing tactics to pre-place the gear?

I find myself wondering whether you're offended at some level by a foreigner bagging the repeat(s) of the UK's hardest trad route? There's an obvious inference that cutting-edge trad in the UK is perfectly fungible with the cutting-edge in North America and elsewhere, and not actually all that unique. Discuss ....?

In reply to rossjmc:


You do presumably understand that ST has now led the route twice, once with pre-placed gear and once placing on the lead? There's no scope for a 4th ascent to improve on that.

In reply to tobyfk:

What do you mean by down-climbing tactics to pre place gear Toby?

Lets say I'd never been to The Cromlech, I turn up one day, climb The Corner, lace it up to below the crux, down climb, go for a brew, tie back on and flash it. That's still a pure onsight.

The Ent

In reply to Enty:

I think the answers pretty obvious. If your mate led it first in one go without downclimbing, he'd probably look down on you just a little bit for coming down and having a brew, even if you could both claim the onsight.

Logically, if you really wanted to, you could compare all sorts of stuff, e.g. so and so only placed 8 bits of gear on a pitch whereas someone else felt they needed to lace it, I'm not suggested for a minute you'd want to do this. With all the strange things we understand and compare in climbing you can get more and more subtle/obsessive about where you stop comparing.

In relation to this ascent I don't think NOT downclimbing really does much for upping the style of the ascent given that it's a headpoint so you know what to expect anyway (OK obviously it means you don't get to rest). If you were comparing two onsight attempts at a route, then NOT downclimbing would be slightly more impressive in my eyes. Not that I'd want to spend any length of time discussing such matters of course....

In reply to Matt Vigg:

Good comments Matt.

1) It's clear from his blog that Sonnie himself feels that he bettered the style of his first (ie the actual second) ascent.

For example, he says:

"In between burns, I got this terrible feeling in the pit of my stomach that sent screams echoing into my brain, it said, and I quote:

'Sonnie you little maggot, you should really try the route one more time, but this time, do it the way you always dreamed you would, placing those seven pieces of gear as you climb, from the bottom to the top, without error. Stop being a punter and git er done.'

So I did...

It was the only way I would be entirely satisfied with myself. All of my hardest climbs I have placed gear on lead and this one was to be no exception, I needed complete closure...

But seriously, I just wanted to climb it in the best style I could and now it is really, really finished..."

2) In relation to Ent's Centotaph Corner example - yes, it might still count as an onsight. But style wise, climbing bottom to top in one push, placing all gear on the way is a better and purer style than going up, down to ground, up etc.

Personally, if I down-climbed The Corner, had a brew and long rest on the ground and then climbed it in one with the pre-placed gear, that'd feel like cheating to me. I wouldn't put the tick in my logbook until I had returned and climbed it in one push, placing gear on lead and without any falls or rests on gear.

In reply to Enty:


Indeed. Did you actually read my previous post?

In reply to tobyfk:
... In the 70s and early 80s many UK trad routes were routinely climbed yo-yo style, including, I believe, many accepted first ascents.

The obvious example being Yo Yo in the Coe.

In reply to JLS:

I totally agree with you. A single push placing the gear on the lead is superior style to a downclimb or pre-placed gear.
Ross JMC- sorry mate, it desn't matter if you climb Diff or E15. Grade is irrelevant. If you do believe grade is relevant you need to stop believing the hype.

Davie

In reply to Wee Davie:

Oh bugger - there goes my "pure" onsight of the File (VS 4c) then!

I climbed up to the overhang, put a friend in clipped it, thought "bugger - this is a lot steeper than I thought it was going to be! I really should have done some warming up..." climbed back down to the ground, shock out, did some windmills, went back up and did the rest of the route.

In reply to TobyA:

I up climbed, down climbed, up climbed, down climbed, up climbed, down climbed, up climbed and then subsequently fell off the File. I guess that's about as bad as it can get in style...

In reply to Wee Davie:
>

Blx!!! There goes about 75% of my onsights.

The Ent

In reply to Enty:

You can still have the onsights, you just have to be a *little* bit less proud of them.

In reply to Matt Vigg:

I've never been proud of anything I've climbed. I just did them.

The Ent

In reply to Enty:

I'm either very sorry to hear that or very impressed by your no-nonsense approach.

Jun 15: Steve McClure Climbs Rhapsody, Trotter Does It Again!

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=06&year=2008#n44777

In reply to tobyfk:

Of course I know what seventies ethics were FFS. And I'm all for foreigners coming here and doing our routes; what can you be imagining?

AFAIK Dave M didn't downclimb the route, he just climbed back down to a rest after placing the gear. It'll be a strange day when that's a style which needs improving upon.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

My understanding - from what other people have written - is that his tactic was to downclimb the whole Requiem crack section after placing the gear. If so: incredibly impressive in itself, and clearly within the 'rules', but from any common-sense perspective more contrived than an ascent without significant down-climbing.

In reply to tobyfk:

OK, maybe I'm wrong. I thought he used to climb back to 'the ledge', ie the ledge he was bothered about hitting if he fell, which I think is at the bottom of the headwall somewhere.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

It's helps a bit to know the topography of Dumbarton Rock. There's a slab leading up to the belay ledge. The Requiem crack starts at this belay ledge. Dave MacLeod down-climbed from the top of the crack to the belay ledge. This is the ledge he was concerned about hitting - falling from the very top of Rhasody, as he did a few times, does result in a fall which pretty much ends at the ledge. However, the overhanging nature of the face means that the fall doesn't just dump you straight down onto the ledge - there's a considerable swing into the face or ledge, depending where you fall from.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


My understanding also. But that's essentially where Requiem starts. I imagine someone of Dave Macleod's calibre could untie there, solo down the bottom slab/ wall (?) and pop home for a cuppa if he really wanted to ...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

>"which I think is at the bottom of the headwall somewhere"

The route starts on a big wide (1-2m) ledge 15m above the ground. The ledge is gained by a number of sport and trad routes the easiest of which is about E3-5b. When starting the route from there around 20m of further climbing takes you to the top of the Requiem crack and a shake-out ledge (6" wide) where (1m above) the and a last bit of gear that can be placed on Rhapsody is placed (there's more gear on Requiem but this is out of reach on Rhapsody). Dave Macleod climbed to the shake-out placing all the gear on the lead, shook-out and downclimbed the 20m of 6b climbing to the big wide ledge. Rope stretch and the RP breaking means a fall from the top means falling the full length of the route and potentially hitting the stating ledge.

I watched Dave's last unsuccessful attempt which after having completed the down climb to the big ledge he returned to the ground, un-tied and didn't return to the climb for some hours. He reclimbed the crack effectively on top rope and after another shake-out pushed on towards the top.

Having an extended lunch mid climb is remarkable. He may not have done this on the actual ascent day, I don't know I wasn't there, but I'd be surprised if his tactics were substantially different.

In reply to tobyfk:

I'm sure he could but IIRC that's climbing down an E3 5b or 5c. It's many years since I've been there but I don't think there is any easy way onto the ledge - easy by my mid-grade standards anyway.

In reply to TobyA:

Easy is a relative term. Dave was quite happy down-climbing the Requiem crack, which I understand is quite hard for most folk.

In reply to JLS:


Well clearly that would anyway be well within the rules. But what if instead Claire had soloed up to the ledge with his lunch? Would that still count ...

In reply to tobyfk:

In a scrummy-sounding hamper. Of course.