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This weekend Jack Geldard and I climbed Scoop Wall at Stoney Middleton. It must have been over 20 years since I last did it and it was a first for Jack.
Jack commented that it was a great route but it was a shame about all the tatty fixed gear. It hadn't occurred to me before but I think he has a point.
Isn't it about time we cleaned up routes like this? After all they are perfectly protectable using modern gear. There might be a case for leaving the top peg in but the rest is pretty superfluous in my opinion.
Circles are fixed gear - http://new.rockfax.com/images/i.php?id=818
Most of this fixed gear is knackered pegs with bits of thread and tat on them. The top gear is the belay which is also a bit of a mess but useful for abbing.
Alan
Jack commented that it was a great route but it was a shame about all the tatty fixed gear. It hadn't occurred to me before but I think he has a point.
Isn't it about time we cleaned up routes like this? After all they are perfectly protectable using modern gear. There might be a case for leaving the top peg in but the rest is pretty superfluous in my opinion.
Circles are fixed gear - http://new.rockfax.com/images/i.php?id=818
Most of this fixed gear is knackered pegs with bits of thread and tat on them. The top gear is the belay which is also a bit of a mess but useful for abbing.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I like them. They're part of the crag's history.
I really don't understand this continuing mania for removing this and that and replacing this and that and so on. How about just accepting what we have and trying to understand why it's the way it is and making the most of it?
jcm
I like them. They're part of the crag's history.
I really don't understand this continuing mania for removing this and that and replacing this and that and so on. How about just accepting what we have and trying to understand why it's the way it is and making the most of it?
jcm
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Yes, are you volunteering? Well done if you are.
G
> Isn't it about time we cleaned up routes like this? After all they are perfectly protectable using modern gear. There might be a case for leaving the top peg in but the rest is pretty superfluous in my opinion.
Yes, are you volunteering? Well done if you are.
G
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I think your right-most red circle may be on a new 3* GG classic, Alan.
But yes, in principle, I would welcome the removal of this old redundant ironmongery...
Neil
I think your right-most red circle may be on a new 3* GG classic, Alan.
But yes, in principle, I would welcome the removal of this old redundant ironmongery...
Neil
In reply to Neil Foster:
That's what that was. There is a peg above as well which I couldn't figure out either.
Alan
> I think your right-most red circle may be on a new 3* GG classic, Alan.
That's what that was. There is a peg above as well which I couldn't figure out either.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
The peak wide issue seems to be getting people to do this sort of work.
Many peak bolts are in a poor state and as far as I understand the funds are available.
It's ironic that Sheffield has probably the largest climbing community in the UK but little enthusiasm for involvement.
In Yorkshire this year there's been a very successful re-bolting/cleaning project which continues as we speak - from a much smaller climbing community.
The peak wide issue seems to be getting people to do this sort of work.
Many peak bolts are in a poor state and as far as I understand the funds are available.
It's ironic that Sheffield has probably the largest climbing community in the UK but little enthusiasm for involvement.
In Yorkshire this year there's been a very successful re-bolting/cleaning project which continues as we speak - from a much smaller climbing community.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
All I can see is big red circles with nothing in them.
All I can see is big red circles with nothing in them.
In reply to richard kirby:
That's a little unfair. I think there's a fair bit of enthusiasm, but a lack of bolting skills.
It's precisely the sort of thing that the BMC could and should help with. Run a free bolting course over a couple of summer evenings.
> (In reply to Alan James - UKC)
> It's ironic that Sheffield has probably the largest climbing community in the UK but little enthusiasm for involvement.
> It's ironic that Sheffield has probably the largest climbing community in the UK but little enthusiasm for involvement.
That's a little unfair. I think there's a fair bit of enthusiasm, but a lack of bolting skills.
It's precisely the sort of thing that the BMC could and should help with. Run a free bolting course over a couple of summer evenings.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I'd prefer to see some careful retro-bolting go on at Stoney. Routes like Kellog and Kingdom Come are totally neglected due to crap fixed gear and holds falling off. You can't easily abseil down them to clean them up. I like Stoney, but most of it is not quality rock. It's a convenient evening or poor weather venue, not some trad mecca. Scoop Wall is the perfect, quick warm up as you only need to take 2 wires. I wouldn't lose sleep if a couple of bolts were put in it. It's hardly Ichabod now is it?
I'd prefer to see some careful retro-bolting go on at Stoney. Routes like Kellog and Kingdom Come are totally neglected due to crap fixed gear and holds falling off. You can't easily abseil down them to clean them up. I like Stoney, but most of it is not quality rock. It's a convenient evening or poor weather venue, not some trad mecca. Scoop Wall is the perfect, quick warm up as you only need to take 2 wires. I wouldn't lose sleep if a couple of bolts were put in it. It's hardly Ichabod now is it?
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I've said before but we shoudl be elmiinating them and taking them out rather than getting traped in a re gearing cycle that ends with a bolt, but I don't mind the old pegs that much either. They add colour. But if they're not crucial for this or any other route to be done at their grades then they can go, can't they. I really don't like some of the rotting in situ slings you get on this and other routes though, they should go.
I've said before but we shoudl be elmiinating them and taking them out rather than getting traped in a re gearing cycle that ends with a bolt, but I don't mind the old pegs that much either. They add colour. But if they're not crucial for this or any other route to be done at their grades then they can go, can't they. I really don't like some of the rotting in situ slings you get on this and other routes though, they should go.
In reply to Paz:
Saying that I replaced one on a peg stack the other day, I claim it was crucial and someone should be looking after the crag.
> I really don't like some of the rotting in situ slings you get on this
> and other routes though, they should go.
> and other routes though, they should go.
Saying that I replaced one on a peg stack the other day, I claim it was crucial and someone should be looking after the crag.
In reply to Tom Briggs:
Perhaps...... but it really isn't that hard and a quick search on the net (expansion bolt instalation) throws up the deal. There are many rope access folk within climbing - I'm sure the knowledge is there.
> (In reply to richard kirby)
> [...]
>
> That's a little unfair. I think there's a fair bit of enthusiasm, but a lack of bolting skills.
>
> It's precisely the sort of thing that the BMC could and should help with. Run a free bolting course over a couple of summer evenings.
> [...]
>
> That's a little unfair. I think there's a fair bit of enthusiasm, but a lack of bolting skills.
>
> It's precisely the sort of thing that the BMC could and should help with. Run a free bolting course over a couple of summer evenings.
Perhaps...... but it really isn't that hard and a quick search on the net (expansion bolt instalation) throws up the deal. There are many rope access folk within climbing - I'm sure the knowledge is there.
In reply to Tom Briggs:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=06&year=2008#n44682
They do. They've just run one in the Lakes and there is now a highly motivated team out there replacing old bolts. Similarly in North Wales...Cheddar.....etc......
Dan Middleton is your man.
> (In reply to richard kirby)
> [...]
> [...]
> It's precisely the sort of thing that the BMC could and should help with. Run a free bolting course over a couple of summer evenings.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=06&year=2008#n44682
They do. They've just run one in the Lakes and there is now a highly motivated team out there replacing old bolts. Similarly in North Wales...Cheddar.....etc......
Dan Middleton is your man.
In reply to Tom Briggs:
It might be your perfect quick warm-up, for others it is the best route at Stoney and something they aspire to. The full trad lead, while placing all your own gear can only add to that experience.
I don't think there is any justification in leaving the gear in 'because it is convenient for the warm-up, and you only have to carry 2 wires'
The other point about careful retroing of some of the hard routes is another issue altogether, although I doubt if we would ever agree on which routes to do. For example, Kellogg had chalk on Sunday and after the start needs no further fixed gear - not a candidate I don't think. Special K on the other hand looked exactly like it did when I first saw it in 1980 and probably hasn't had an ascent since then either!
The point of this thread though was to discuss the removal of fixed gear from routes where it is no longer needed, not retro-bolting (although I fear it will now inevitably veer in that direction).
Alan
> Scoop Wall is the perfect, quick warm up as you only need to take 2 wires. I wouldn't lose sleep if a couple of bolts were put in it. It's hardly Ichabod now is it?
It might be your perfect quick warm-up, for others it is the best route at Stoney and something they aspire to. The full trad lead, while placing all your own gear can only add to that experience.
I don't think there is any justification in leaving the gear in 'because it is convenient for the warm-up, and you only have to carry 2 wires'
The other point about careful retroing of some of the hard routes is another issue altogether, although I doubt if we would ever agree on which routes to do. For example, Kellogg had chalk on Sunday and after the start needs no further fixed gear - not a candidate I don't think. Special K on the other hand looked exactly like it did when I first saw it in 1980 and probably hasn't had an ascent since then either!
The point of this thread though was to discuss the removal of fixed gear from routes where it is no longer needed, not retro-bolting (although I fear it will now inevitably veer in that direction).
Alan
In reply to Tom Briggs:
No it bl**dy well isn't!
jcm
> It's precisely the sort of thing that the BMC could and should help with. Run a free bolting course over a couple of summer evenings.
No it bl**dy well isn't!
jcm
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I'd certainly remove the tat - at least then you can get a better idea of the state of the pegs. For the pegs themselves, if there is a nut placement close by (a couple of feet) then they should go.
It's so long since I did the route that I can't remember much about it or the fixed gear and state thereof but presumably the pegs aren't particularly inspiring?
ALC
I'd certainly remove the tat - at least then you can get a better idea of the state of the pegs. For the pegs themselves, if there is a nut placement close by (a couple of feet) then they should go.
It's so long since I did the route that I can't remember much about it or the fixed gear and state thereof but presumably the pegs aren't particularly inspiring?
ALC
In reply to a lakeland climber:
I think the pegs are mostly pretty solid - removing them may well be a bit of a battle - there is just always other gear available, and none of it is particularly hard to place, or awkward sizes.
The only one that may be worth leaving is the top (tat-less) peg which protects the crux and is a bit higher than the highest alternative wire placement.
Alan
I think the pegs are mostly pretty solid - removing them may well be a bit of a battle - there is just always other gear available, and none of it is particularly hard to place, or awkward sizes.
The only one that may be worth leaving is the top (tat-less) peg which protects the crux and is a bit higher than the highest alternative wire placement.
Alan
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Er, why not?
> (In reply to Tom Briggs)
>
>
> [...]
>
> No it bl**dy well isn't!
>
> jcm
>
>
> [...]
>
> No it bl**dy well isn't!
>
> jcm
Er, why not?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: im not arguing here but theres also a 'mania' for retaining this and that. certainly, there seems to be this notion that rotten fixed gear is part of the trad experience. yes, it gives an unknown quantity to routes and can add to their character and mystique but we are talking about gear that is supposed to, potentially, save life or limb - its not a game. surely if the FA benefited from solid fixed gear and subsequent ascensionists cant then the route is not what it was? i want a fair challenge not ifs / buts / maybes; will that thread hold, is that peg going to snap should not be undue pre-occupations when im on a route. my view would be different if this was acknowledged in descriptions eg this route was graded with peg protection for the crux, this peg can no longer be relied on and climbers should now therefore consider the grade 'b' rather than 'a'. this doesnt seem to happen though.
there are numerous posts on here about this, it seems that somebody needs to come up with a policy for fixed gear across UK crags. ideally this should be like for like replacement where necessary and possible. where not possible, alternatives should be considered: a revised grade or (sin of sins) a bolt (i recognise though this may represent the thin end of the wedge and can foresee problems with this option).
bolted routes get the occasional makeover, why shouldnt routes featuring fixed gear receive the same treatment? routes are being left undone due to a lack of consensus over what is essentially routine maintenance, nothing more. this issue is not some many-headed monster waiting to destroy UK trad, there shouldnt really be any argument.
there are numerous posts on here about this, it seems that somebody needs to come up with a policy for fixed gear across UK crags. ideally this should be like for like replacement where necessary and possible. where not possible, alternatives should be considered: a revised grade or (sin of sins) a bolt (i recognise though this may represent the thin end of the wedge and can foresee problems with this option).
bolted routes get the occasional makeover, why shouldnt routes featuring fixed gear receive the same treatment? routes are being left undone due to a lack of consensus over what is essentially routine maintenance, nothing more. this issue is not some many-headed monster waiting to destroy UK trad, there shouldnt really be any argument.
In reply to Tom Briggs:
I think this debate needs having in a wider context, I've been discussing it a lot with various folk recently but mainly with regard to venues like Pembroke.
Generally I'd say remove if not absolutely necessary. I'm really not sure about replacing with bolts. On sea cliffs, definitely not. On Windy ledge, well its less clear cut but even just one bolt in each of Kingdom come, Special K and Kellogg would totally change their character.
I think this debate needs having in a wider context, I've been discussing it a lot with various folk recently but mainly with regard to venues like Pembroke.
Generally I'd say remove if not absolutely necessary. I'm really not sure about replacing with bolts. On sea cliffs, definitely not. On Windy ledge, well its less clear cut but even just one bolt in each of Kingdom come, Special K and Kellogg would totally change their character.
In reply to Adam L:
I agree.
That's my point. Why not change the character of Kingdom Come to a popular 1 star E4, rather than a very bold E5 that never gets climbed? Would anyone do Circe without the bolt right in front of you at the crux?
> (In reply to Tom Briggs)
> Generally I'd say remove if not absolutely necessary. I'm really not sure about replacing with bolts. On sea cliffs, definitely not.
> Generally I'd say remove if not absolutely necessary. I'm really not sure about replacing with bolts. On sea cliffs, definitely not.
I agree.
> On Windy ledge, well its less clear cut but even just one bolt in each of Kingdom come, Special K and Kellogg would totally change their character.
That's my point. Why not change the character of Kingdom Come to a popular 1 star E4, rather than a very bold E5 that never gets climbed? Would anyone do Circe without the bolt right in front of you at the crux?
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Without the pegs above the pod at the start (the second and third of your red circles), it's going to be a pretty bold series of moves through that lower crux bulge. I could see it becoming a not very popular E3 with no fixed gear.
Plus of course most of the holds on each of the two cruxes of this 'area classic' are actually manufactured i.e. peg scars. This is my point really with Stoney, it developed with a mix of bolts/pegs and trad gear because it's not actually very good quality rock. A few extra bolts here and there a la Circe, would make it a better venue in my opinion.
> (In reply to Tom Briggs)
> [...]
> It might be your perfect quick warm-up, for others it is the best route at Stoney and something they aspire to. The full trad lead, while placing all your own gear can only add to that experience.
> [...]
> It might be your perfect quick warm-up, for others it is the best route at Stoney and something they aspire to. The full trad lead, while placing all your own gear can only add to that experience.
Without the pegs above the pod at the start (the second and third of your red circles), it's going to be a pretty bold series of moves through that lower crux bulge. I could see it becoming a not very popular E3 with no fixed gear.
Plus of course most of the holds on each of the two cruxes of this 'area classic' are actually manufactured i.e. peg scars. This is my point really with Stoney, it developed with a mix of bolts/pegs and trad gear because it's not actually very good quality rock. A few extra bolts here and there a la Circe, would make it a better venue in my opinion.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
does the fixed gear need to go? with that much on the route is seems like this is the character of the route - removing it will change the route... its a sort of classic isn't it really. if you think some of it is dodgy why don't you pop down and replace some of it?
There's only so much collectivism and group-think we can have before somebody actually has to get off their arses, make and executive decision and get on with it. Whatever gets done (probably nothing) about scoop wall people won't like it so there is no perfect solution.
does the fixed gear need to go? with that much on the route is seems like this is the character of the route - removing it will change the route... its a sort of classic isn't it really. if you think some of it is dodgy why don't you pop down and replace some of it?
There's only so much collectivism and group-think we can have before somebody actually has to get off their arses, make and executive decision and get on with it. Whatever gets done (probably nothing) about scoop wall people won't like it so there is no perfect solution.
In reply to Alan James - UKC: Jesus, I think it had less than that when it was an aid route. I did the second free ascent if this route and I'm sure Tom had removed some of the old tat on his first. Though we did take a break in the cave in those days
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=88554
Of course there was no guide so it still kept being done as an aid route for a few years, so some of those old pegs may even be post free ascents!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=88554
Of course there was no guide so it still kept being done as an aid route for a few years, so some of those old pegs may even be post free ascents!
In reply to Tom Briggs:
You obviously haven't been looking very closely while warming up Tom. There is bags of easy-to-place gear available before you commit to the lower bulge - absolutely no question of it effecting the route's grade or popularity.
Alan
> Without the pegs above the pod at the start (the second and third of your red circles), it's going to be a pretty bold series of moves through that lower crux bulge. I could see it becoming a not very popular E3 with no fixed gear.
You obviously haven't been looking very closely while warming up Tom. There is bags of easy-to-place gear available before you commit to the lower bulge - absolutely no question of it effecting the route's grade or popularity.
Alan
In reply to petellis:
It isn't dodgy, it is solid, it is just a right bloody mess.
I don't subscribe to this historical character argument either. I have never seen any merit in that argument with regard to tatty old fixed gear much of which has probably been added and taken away bit by bit over the last 35 years.
Alan
> does the fixed gear need to go? with that much on the route is seems like this is the character of the route - removing it will change the route... its a sort of classic isn't it really. if you think some of it is dodgy why don't you pop down and replace some of it?
It isn't dodgy, it is solid, it is just a right bloody mess.
I don't subscribe to this historical character argument either. I have never seen any merit in that argument with regard to tatty old fixed gear much of which has probably been added and taken away bit by bit over the last 35 years.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Fair enough then, I just couldn't picture gear in that crumbly break. I'm the last person to advocate placing a bolt if you can get a decent wire in.
> (In reply to Tom Briggs)
> [...]
>
> You obviously haven't been looking very closely while warming up Tom. There is bags of easy-to-place gear available before you commit to the lower bulge - absolutely no question of it effecting the route's grade or popularity.
> [...]
>
> You obviously haven't been looking very closely while warming up Tom. There is bags of easy-to-place gear available before you commit to the lower bulge - absolutely no question of it effecting the route's grade or popularity.
Fair enough then, I just couldn't picture gear in that crumbly break. I'm the last person to advocate placing a bolt if you can get a decent wire in.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
well go up there and chop some or all of it down then. Or, go and replace it with matching blue cord. Discussing it with UKC is pointless, you just get some people that want it to stay and some that want it to go.
> (In reply to petellis)
> [...]
>
> It isn't dodgy, it is solid, it is just a right bloody mess.
>
> I don't subscribe to this historical character argument either. I have never seen any merit in that argument with regard to tatty old fixed gear much of which has probably been added and taken away bit by bit over the last 35 years.
> [...]
>
> It isn't dodgy, it is solid, it is just a right bloody mess.
>
> I don't subscribe to this historical character argument either. I have never seen any merit in that argument with regard to tatty old fixed gear much of which has probably been added and taken away bit by bit over the last 35 years.
well go up there and chop some or all of it down then. Or, go and replace it with matching blue cord. Discussing it with UKC is pointless, you just get some people that want it to stay and some that want it to go.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Well, I belong to the Old School in that I actually like the visual appeal of old slings threaded around chockstones and old pegs to aim for. I mean I would usually back them up but they lend temporary respite.
These old relics remind us of the way things were done back in t'old days when there were no cams, hexentrics or any decent nuts except the ubiquitous moac.
However, I don't want to come across all Al Evans and start getting hysterical. We live in a changing world and as far as gear, information networks etc go it is a better world in many ways so in the case of Scoop Wall by all means clean it up and have a good E3 trad. climb. We don't really need to worry about losing an E2 as there are plenty around and many people don't care for Stoney anyway.
Alan- I know this wasn't meant to be a retro-bolting thread but it has been hi-jacked so I'll join in as well.
Kellog really isn't so bad as it stands. I mean obviously you can hurt yourself but at least you can see what the challenge is from the ground and deal with it. I said for years that Kingdom Come was not E3. E5 more like. It is hard and bold so perhaps that needs a peg or possibly a bolt. If it was made safe I think the guide would be obliged to make it clear that early ascents were very scary. Special k is also scary and just doesn't get done as it stands so what is the point of it being there just gathering dust?
The big question is where do you draw the line? Will people start saying that it is awfully hard work getting the gear in Wee Doris so let's bolt it?!
Well, I belong to the Old School in that I actually like the visual appeal of old slings threaded around chockstones and old pegs to aim for. I mean I would usually back them up but they lend temporary respite.
These old relics remind us of the way things were done back in t'old days when there were no cams, hexentrics or any decent nuts except the ubiquitous moac.
However, I don't want to come across all Al Evans and start getting hysterical. We live in a changing world and as far as gear, information networks etc go it is a better world in many ways so in the case of Scoop Wall by all means clean it up and have a good E3 trad. climb. We don't really need to worry about losing an E2 as there are plenty around and many people don't care for Stoney anyway.
Alan- I know this wasn't meant to be a retro-bolting thread but it has been hi-jacked so I'll join in as well.
Kellog really isn't so bad as it stands. I mean obviously you can hurt yourself but at least you can see what the challenge is from the ground and deal with it. I said for years that Kingdom Come was not E3. E5 more like. It is hard and bold so perhaps that needs a peg or possibly a bolt. If it was made safe I think the guide would be obliged to make it clear that early ascents were very scary. Special k is also scary and just doesn't get done as it stands so what is the point of it being there just gathering dust?
The big question is where do you draw the line? Will people start saying that it is awfully hard work getting the gear in Wee Doris so let's bolt it?!
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:
The only 3 star E2 at Stoney, the best E2 at Stoney!
If the fixed gear is solid leave it for now. Review the situation when it is dodgy.
There might a case for mucking around with other bits of Stoney but Scoop Wall's fine.
> We don't really need to worry about losing an E2 as there are plenty around and many people don't care for Stoney anyway.
The only 3 star E2 at Stoney, the best E2 at Stoney!
If the fixed gear is solid leave it for now. Review the situation when it is dodgy.
There might a case for mucking around with other bits of Stoney but Scoop Wall's fine.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
>I don't subscribe to this historical character argument either.
No, well there's a surprise.
jcm
>I don't subscribe to this historical character argument either.
No, well there's a surprise.
jcm
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:
>Will people start saying that it is awfully hard work getting the gear in Wee Doris so let's bolt it?!
Indeed they will.
jcm
>Will people start saying that it is awfully hard work getting the gear in Wee Doris so let's bolt it?!
Indeed they will.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
And then once the gear in the break's been replaced by a bolt they'll start saying they hate hybrid routes and it's really a sport route anyway so let's bolt the runout as well because it's just an artificial creation and it would be a really nice 6b+ and become popular.....
jcm
And then once the gear in the break's been replaced by a bolt they'll start saying they hate hybrid routes and it's really a sport route anyway so let's bolt the runout as well because it's just an artificial creation and it would be a really nice 6b+ and become popular.....
jcm
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
>useful for abbing
Ah, right. Now if convenience is involved, that's different.
jcm
>useful for abbing
Ah, right. Now if convenience is involved, that's different.
jcm
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:
Excuse me!. I have been completely reasonable on both this thread and the S West one, I think you are getting me confused with John Cox.
> (In reply to Alan James - UKC)
> However, I don't want to come across all Al Evans and start getting hysterical.
> However, I don't want to come across all Al Evans and start getting hysterical.
Excuse me!. I have been completely reasonable on both this thread and the S West one, I think you are getting me confused with John Cox.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
If his worry is about "tattiness" then at least it is out of sight from the ground.
If his worry is about "tattiness" then at least it is out of sight from the ground.
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel: In fact even more strangely from your barbs I more or less echoed what you are saying?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Well to be honest, it is actually more convenient climbing with two wires and a few quickdraws, but it isn't as much fun in this case.
The top ab station is just to protect the crag-top foliage.
Alan
> Ah, right. Now if convenience is involved, that's different.
Well to be honest, it is actually more convenient climbing with two wires and a few quickdraws, but it isn't as much fun in this case.
The top ab station is just to protect the crag-top foliage.
Alan
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:
I have never been able to understand why people who like the visual appeal of jumbled old bits of tat also seem to be the same people who hate the visual intrusion of a line of bolts - this might not apply to you but probably does apply to JCM. As I said, the historical thing is an argument without any substance. Most of the fixed tat in the route is probably not that old anyway, in fact the further you go back, the less tat there is!
It wouldn't be E3, it would be exactly the same grade it is now, no harder or bolder.
I pretty much agree with this.
Well people have said this for years yet there are still few examples of it actually happening. JCM can sound off with his thin end of the wedge argument but in reality, I don't think there are many around who would be prepared to bolt Wee Doris, and there are plenty of people around who would strongly object.
Alan
> Well, I belong to the Old School in that I actually like the visual appeal of old slings threaded around chockstones and old pegs to aim for. I mean I would usually back them up but they lend temporary respite.
> These old relics remind us of the way things were done back in t'old days when there were no cams, hexentrics or any decent nuts except the ubiquitous moac.
> These old relics remind us of the way things were done back in t'old days when there were no cams, hexentrics or any decent nuts except the ubiquitous moac.
I have never been able to understand why people who like the visual appeal of jumbled old bits of tat also seem to be the same people who hate the visual intrusion of a line of bolts - this might not apply to you but probably does apply to JCM. As I said, the historical thing is an argument without any substance. Most of the fixed tat in the route is probably not that old anyway, in fact the further you go back, the less tat there is!
> In the case of Scoop Wall by all means clean it up and have a good E3 trad. climb.
It wouldn't be E3, it would be exactly the same grade it is now, no harder or bolder.
> Alan- I know this wasn't meant to be a retro-bolting thread but it has been hi-jacked so I'll join in as well.
> Kellog really isn't so bad as it stands. I mean obviously you can hurt yourself but at least you can see what the challenge is from the ground and deal with it. I said for years that Kingdom Come was not E3.
> Kellog really isn't so bad as it stands. I mean obviously you can hurt yourself but at least you can see what the challenge is from the ground and deal with it. I said for years that Kingdom Come was not E3.
I pretty much agree with this.
> The big question is where do you draw the line? Will people start saying that it is awfully hard work getting the gear in Wee Doris so let's bolt it?!
Well people have said this for years yet there are still few examples of it actually happening. JCM can sound off with his thin end of the wedge argument but in reality, I don't think there are many around who would be prepared to bolt Wee Doris, and there are plenty of people around who would strongly object.
Alan
In reply to Al Evans:
You are full of surprises Al but you did rather over react to the lad who asked about the stakes at Swanage v Pembroke.
> (In reply to The Purple Pimpernel) In fact even more strangely from your barbs I more or less echoed what you are saying?
You are full of surprises Al but you did rather over react to the lad who asked about the stakes at Swanage v Pembroke.
In reply to Al Evans: Hi Al, just to say your historical photos are brilliant. Keep putting them up.
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:
You must have realised by now that a lot of my replies are just to stimulate the debate.
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> You are full of surprises Al but you did rather over react to the lad who asked about the stakes at Swanage v Pembroke.
> [...]
>
> You are full of surprises Al but you did rather over react to the lad who asked about the stakes at Swanage v Pembroke.
You must have realised by now that a lot of my replies are just to stimulate the debate.
In reply to John2: Did you see you are on one in the 'People' gallery
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Bit of Info , I cleaned and replaced the nylon slings in Scoop Wall,
10 - 15 years ago. I suppose they could all have been removed, I just replaced the good placements . ( replaced the sling in Our Father at the same time ). What was interesting was a sling above the first bulge, you would see people clip it and ignore the nut placement next to it and continue climbing. When I removed it I had a good look , it was a 1 inch tape however in the back of the crack it was threaded around a ancient loop of No 1 nylon ( 5 mm ) which was around a rock finger the size of a pencil.
Bit of Info , I cleaned and replaced the nylon slings in Scoop Wall,
10 - 15 years ago. I suppose they could all have been removed, I just replaced the good placements . ( replaced the sling in Our Father at the same time ). What was interesting was a sling above the first bulge, you would see people clip it and ignore the nut placement next to it and continue climbing. When I removed it I had a good look , it was a 1 inch tape however in the back of the crack it was threaded around a ancient loop of No 1 nylon ( 5 mm ) which was around a rock finger the size of a pencil.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
A couple of classics in Stoney Quarry would benefit from a couple of pegs.If someone wants to fork out I could go and put some in.Bitterfingers needs a decent lower off.That tree isn't going to last much longer.
cheers,
Paul Mitchell
> This weekend Jack Geldard and I climbed Scoop Wall at Stoney Middleton. It must have been over 20 years since I last did it and it was a first for Jack.
>
> Jack commented that it was a great route but it was a shame about all the tatty fixed gear. It hadn't occurred to me before but I think he has a point.
>
> Isn't it about time we cleaned up routes like this? After all they are perfectly protectable using modern gear. There might be a case for leaving the top peg in but the rest is pretty superfluous in my opinion.
>
> Circles are fixed gear - http://new.rockfax.com/images/i.php?id=818
>
> Most of this fixed gear is knackered pegs with bits of thread and tat on them. The top gear is the belay which is also a bit of a mess but useful for abbing.
>
> Alan
Stoney is a neglected crag and likely to remain so.More pegs need to be put in,rather than taking them out.Anyone is welcome to put a new bolt in the crux of Kingdome Come,although it has been done without.The first free ascent was protected by a rusty old bolt,which was removed and replaced by a new one.Unfortunately it lasted just a few weeks as it was in loose rock.>
> Jack commented that it was a great route but it was a shame about all the tatty fixed gear. It hadn't occurred to me before but I think he has a point.
>
> Isn't it about time we cleaned up routes like this? After all they are perfectly protectable using modern gear. There might be a case for leaving the top peg in but the rest is pretty superfluous in my opinion.
>
> Circles are fixed gear - http://new.rockfax.com/images/i.php?id=818
>
> Most of this fixed gear is knackered pegs with bits of thread and tat on them. The top gear is the belay which is also a bit of a mess but useful for abbing.
>
> Alan
A couple of classics in Stoney Quarry would benefit from a couple of pegs.If someone wants to fork out I could go and put some in.Bitterfingers needs a decent lower off.That tree isn't going to last much longer.
cheers,
Paul Mitchell
In reply to paul mitchell:
You are confusing two issues here Paul.
One issue is adding or replacing fixed gear to neglected routes where the current gear is either rotten or disappeared, or the route has become ignored due to loose rock and lack of gear.
The other is removing tatty (and possibly dangerous) old gear where it is totally unnecessary as is the case with Scoop Wall. Tidying up Scoop Wall will not alter the grade or its popularity, but for most climbers it will make it a better and more rewarding experience.
Alan
> Stoney is a neglected crag and likely to remain so.More pegs need to be put in,rather than taking them out.Anyone is welcome to put a new bolt in the crux of Kingdome Come,although it has been done without.The first free ascent was protected by a rusty old bolt,which was removed and replaced by a new one.Unfortunately it lasted just a few weeks as it was in loose rock.
> A couple of classics in Stoney Quarry would benefit from a couple of pegs.If someone wants to fork out I could go and put some in.Bitterfingers needs a decent lower off.That tree isn't going to last much longer.
> A couple of classics in Stoney Quarry would benefit from a couple of pegs.If someone wants to fork out I could go and put some in.Bitterfingers needs a decent lower off.That tree isn't going to last much longer.
You are confusing two issues here Paul.
One issue is adding or replacing fixed gear to neglected routes where the current gear is either rotten or disappeared, or the route has become ignored due to loose rock and lack of gear.
The other is removing tatty (and possibly dangerous) old gear where it is totally unnecessary as is the case with Scoop Wall. Tidying up Scoop Wall will not alter the grade or its popularity, but for most climbers it will make it a better and more rewarding experience.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
In a similar vein, I was out at Millstone North Bay yesterday afternoon. A lot of redundant pegs, tat and bolts all over the place.
In a similar vein, I was out at Millstone North Bay yesterday afternoon. A lot of redundant pegs, tat and bolts all over the place.
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