UKC

Just been looking at OTE website for Feb 2000 and found this;

And finally, Joe Brown has put up a new E4 on Right Hand Red Walls around the Wendigo - Red haze area, nice to see one of the country’s finest ever climbers still going well into his ’60s.

Anyone else climbing this hard at around 70?

In reply to sutty: Are we sure this was our Joe, there is another young Joe Brown around who is a good climber these days? Mike Banks does well still leading E1 at over 70, and the aformentioned John Sumner, I'm suprised if Joe did a new E4 in 2000, last time I talked to him he was regreting that he never got to lead Left Wall, which is only E2.
I tried to convince him he could still do it as it wasn't that hard and suited his style of climbing but he was unconvinced, I'd be suprised if he led an E4 in 2000?

In reply to sutty:

Rowland Edwards will be for sure. Better climber than Joe Brown and expect hasn't used as much aid on climbs (whatever you think of any Edwards' fixed gear placements).

In reply to Al Evans:
It is at the bottom of this report;

http://www.planetfear.com/climbing/ontheedgemag/reports/ote94northwales.htm...

In reply to Anonymous:

YOU ARE JOKING

I rowed with Rowland when he put the pegs in his girdle on Cloggy as I had a line there that would have meant only about three pegs at the time. He used BOLTS FFS. go and look at the rotten things.
He may be a good climber but ethics have never got in the way of getting up a route, or did not then.
Brown was also climbing his hard routes pre nuts, and for a lot in plimsolls. Rowland came on the scene at least ten years later when PAs and some nuts were available. He was not as good as Banner, in fact he was very ordinary amongst the good climbers of the 60s.

In reply to Al Evans:

Yes, something odd here. Joe was 70 in September 2000. In 1997, because of a very longstanding shoulder problem, he was bothered whether he could manage Right Unconquerable for my Peak book, but then, when he eventually came to do it, he sailed up it. But he had done Winking Crack about a year before (this apparently had not made his shoulder problem any better!)

I'm not at all convinced he is now onsight leading E4 though (but with Joe, how can we ever know!) ... I suspect he's probably climbing smoothly and contentedly at about E1.

In reply to Anonymous:

Have GOT to agree with Sutty here, I like Rowland and still consider him a friend but no way was he ever as good as Joe, also I am fairly sure he is not 70, not much older than me in fact, and as regard as aid on climbs, is this a troll?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
he may have said E4 for the route, he cannot really grade things now or ever for publication. It might have seemed E4 and that is what he may have said jokingly. It will all come out in the wash, and Joe will just lagh at being caught out, once again

In reply to sutty:

Interesting .. because, when I was talking to him, Joe absolutely singled out Banner as being extraordinary in the late 50s, mostly in the context of Insanity at Curbar. (The other person who really made his eyes light up in conversation was Birtwistle.)

In reply to Al Evans:
Definitely younger than me, maybe nearly 60 but not sure.

He used more aid in Wales than most others, at least that is the way it seemed at the time.

We have to remember it WAS a different time and people were trying to get in as many new routes as possible as the "eye of faith" was missing in a lot of routemakers.
Rowland just went for the diretissima at times and sod the best line.

In reply to sutty:

I suspect he's never been any good at all at grading anything! And just not interested. As far as i can see he graded almost all his new routes VS in the 50s (am I right in thinking that's what he graded Elder Crack?!?!)

What is so endearing about him, beyond his vast climbing achievements, is his genuine lack of interest in all talk, bullshit, grades, etc in climbing. It's incredible. His memory is appalling - he can't remember the names of a lot of climbs he's done.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
he has a very rare disease for a climber, selective amnesia.
He cannot remember doing a route UNTIL someone else does it and then he says "I seem to remeber doing something in that area". Covered.

He does not care about grades, just chuckles when he has sandbagged the opposition. Morty used to get wound up at one time but realised it was just talk and then backtalked him. Morty was the only one I heard do it.

In reply to sutty:

i suspect you are getting dangerously near the truth. I think he was probably a master at sandbagging people! ... So you knew Morty. I'd love to know more abotu this (maybe email me if you dont want to discuss it on the web)

In reply to sutty: Well Fred Beckey is still climbing 5.10a and he is about 80 now... and still climbing alpine first ascents and WI3+ (Scottish IV) as well. But he's only about 25 mentally, or 16 where girls are concerned...

In reply to sutty:

There is a young Joe Brown who amongst other things has put up Cemetery Waits E7 6c (1995), The hanging arete just above BAW's Crawl on Stanage

In reply to Offwidth:


I agree Offwidth, I think this is the confusion, I cant imagine Joe grading any new route he does these days (or ever) E4, He does still churn out new routes, mostly trad routes in Spain but see my post above about my conversation with him about Left Wall.
Main thing is Joe is still climbing, still enjoying it, and still climbing with his impeccable style, but E4, I think we got the wrong JB Sutty.

In reply to Al Evans:

Gives the rest of us old farts something to aim for eh?

In reply to Al Evans:

WE did not get the wrong JB, it was a quote from that on the edge link by Mark Reeves, just click on to it and see.

I wonder if that is what happened on the thread about some piddling boulder in Ireland, FFS what a palaver. Joe would have LOVED setting that one going and then walk away grinning and back to the dartboard, much more important

In reply to sutty: Yeh, read it and see your point Sutty, be good to find out if it was THE JB or the new JB maybe Mr Reeves got it wrong, maybe not? Anybody know?

In reply to Al Evans:

The other JB (younger) isn't climbing at the moment due to injury, or at least wasn't last time I spoke to him, and hasn't been for about a year.

In reply to Big C: I think this was dated 2000

In reply to Al Evans:

It may well have been Joe the younger then, E4 is well within his range.

In reply to Al Evans:

Naughty question - has Joe (the elder) ever done a route that is now graded E4??

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: He's done some that should be

In reply to Al Evans:

!!!!! Jericho Wall on the Cromlech once felt about E4 when I had a total grip on it in about 1970! But seriously, I guess doing something like Great Slab at Froggatt in 1951, on sight in plimsolls, would have been about the equivalent of E4 in seriousness.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
That is a loaded question. They would be if done with the same equipment as on the FA, maybe not now with modern gear.

Some of the routes on the Pinnacle face he did were well scary, after some of the accidents trying to repeat them a lot of people including me shied away from them. Exploring Gogarth must have been "adventurous" as well.

In reply to sutty:

Yes, that's what I meant. Without sticky boots and modern protection. I guess in non stickyboots and with no pro Right Unconquerable, for example, would have been about E2 5b

In reply to sutty:

Pete Moffat - maybe not E4 but he seconded saxon on Scafell well into his 60s - a decent effort, also does loads of ski mountaineering etc so a pretty good old rounder.

In reply to sutty:

Emerald Crack gets E3, but JB used 1 point of aid, I beleive. He probably graded it VS anyway...what a hero. I found Right Unconquerable a complete nightmare, and I'm a good 50 years younger than him. With loads of shiny new equipment. I felt quite pathetic when I had to rest on it...oh well...

In reply to Roberto:
Go to the corner with a dunces hat on, RESTING ON AID on RU?

Of course you have to go back and do it clean, one sling on a chockstone on the big flake, You will HAVE TO go for the top then

In reply to sutty:

What chockstone on RH?

I rested to (after the main flake).... and went up and down to the flake about four times..... and found a sneaky heel hook round the arete near the top that got some feeling back into my forearms so I could top out. But I did do the hard finish pumped silly and then couldnt second cleanly a couple of years later, relatively fresh.

In reply to sutty:
Didn't the father of some french climbing ace do his first F8a at the age of sixty? Sounds fairly impressive to me.

In reply to sutty:

Yeah yeah, I know Sutty. I feel like a loser now. Its because I stopped to place a cam just before the final bulge. Didn't realise just how pumped I was, and suddenly I was airborne. I'm going to go back, f*ck placing gear there and pile it over the top.

I never saw a chockstone either.

RU is still the hardest route I've ever attempted, and I've led E1 quite a few times, and E2 once.

In reply to Roberto: Try Surform, even steeper and even harder at HVS (It got E1 in gritfax). There is a weird hands off rest if you get that far

In reply to Offwidth: Doesn't Bonington still hack E2, at 63/4/5 whatever he is these days?
Dunno, I just remember seeing it in an article, and thinking, hey, I got 20 years to get that good.
Perhaps there IS hope!

Tim, TG

In reply to Offwidth:
I want to do The Rasp as well, which means I'm going to have to get a shit load better at that type of climbing. I'm trying to train my weaknessess. Give me a slab anyday!

In reply to Roberto:

Why rush to do RU in bad style? I waited years before I did it (and refused to second it because I wanted to do it on sight). When I came to do it, I really enjoyed it. Was up in about 2 mins flat. I'd been really psyched up for it.

Agreed that Surform is ridiculous for HVS -- and Rasp, well that's v like RU, only longer and leaning out by about 15 degrees. Way, way harder - very top end E2 (some say it should be E3). Ive only tried seconding it and just couldnt reach finishing hold at end of traverse - I was just too pumped - so had to be lowered all the way to the bottom! But I didnt mind a bit - because the route had truly defeated me.

In reply to O Mighty Tim:

Bonington is now 68. I think he led an E3 at Reecastle in Lakes when he was about 65.

In reply to gordon stainforth: Sutty, the chockstone went years ago, as did the bottom of the flake. The rumour was that someone hacked it off to retrieve a stuck friend but no one was ever named, I think its just as likely that someone fell on a friend there and it expanded snapping off the flake, anyhow probably the worst act of vandalism on gritstone if done deliberately!

In reply to Al Evans:

I heard absolutely definitely from some Sheffield climber - cant remember who - that what happened was someone got a Friend stuck there and came back with a car jack to try to ease the flake out slightly and ended up breaking it. As you say, one of the worst acts of vandalism on grit (tho that chipped hold at bottom of Curving Arete at Black Rocks, now filled with cement, must take number one position).

In reply to gordon stainforth:
That is the story I heard, using a jack to recover a friend, they should have had all their gear confiscated so they could not go on a crag again.

Al, I know the chock has gone, was just pointing out that it was the only pro you could get at one time. It would only protect you for a few moves and as was said people scuttled back down to its security as often as they made the top.

In reply to gordon stainforth:

Surform may be ridiculous at HVS but it can be easier to onsight because if you find the rest you can recover strength in both hands. There is no full rest above the ledge on RH. I took nearly 20 minutes on RH and was knackered. Both climbs suit my technical stengths (power moves) but not my head (I'm not so bold). On Surform I had gear (and belayer!) problems on the low flake and so climbed back to the ground twice to recover before I was happy to go for it.

In reply to sutty: never measured my heart rate but u think i'd stuggle to cimb E4 without my heart racing way into the 100s

In reply to sutty:

I climbed with Rowland last year out in spain, his was still onsighting new routes at around E2 5c. he is still climbing well and solidly, still very old school, big run outs on new ground. The lines he was putting up were very impressive better than anything i have climbed over here.

you cant nock the guy for his climbing, he is in my eyes a legend with he has forgoton more routes than most of you have climbed.

In reply to Al Evans:

Saw him last year at Carreg Wastad. We were at the bottom of Crackstone Rib and he led Shadow Wall. Only VS, but the grace and elegance were mesmerising to watch. Amazing for 70.

In reply to Rob Naylor: I still blush at being shown up by Sutty at Almscliffe. And him with the extra weight, 20 years older, and a gammy shoulder and a sore foot.
In trainers...

I need to practice jamming more, like trapping my fingers in a door, so as to have an excuse not to climb!

Tim, TG

In reply to O Mighty Tim: Bonners is indeed climbing regularly at E2/3 - but how old're Boysen and Carrington? They're cruising E3 easy-peasy with no fuss all the time.

Got to be 60-odd, I'd have thought.

In reply to andy:

Just under I think. Ron's the one to watch in 20-odd years time I reckon. Those E5 slabs on Froggatt will still be a stroll for him.

In reply to andy:
I think you are right, Boysen is 60 this year I think. Scott is someone else who is still going out to the Himalaya and doing things, there are a whole host of others, Angela for instance is still as light on the rock as she ever was.

Make way for the pensioners mountaineering and rock climbing club, oh, and look at the Grassington car park on a sunny winter afternoon. Full of the greyhaired rambling clubs cars.

In reply to sutty: Yes Sutty, I was thinking of opening an old climbers rest home!

Stu (old)

In reply to gordon stainforth:

I didn't think I had rushed to do it. I'd led plenty of E1's before I tried it. I'd backed off from the very bottom once before because I was so intimidated by the route. No one told me how hard it was!
But then it is my least favourite kind of route, sustained, powerful and pumpy, but bold as well as you can't stop to place really good gear. I much prefer routes that are bold and delicate.

I'm annoyed that now I'll never onsight RU, but you live and learn!

In reply to Roberto:

I'm still a bit baffled by the problems you are having if youve led plenty of E1's. I've led v few E1's on grit, and quite a few HVS's that Ive found harder than RU eg. Bachelor's LH (tho I understand that is now going up to E1), Eye of Faith, Nowanda (tho apparently I missed a hidden pocket), Peapod, Rubberneck, The Grogan and Chequers Crack (which Chris Craggs gives the grade HVS 5c) - failed miserably on the latter.

Obviously youve got to practise placing gear on sustained climbs (that's the problem on Bachelor's LH, The Grogan and Chequer's crack).

BTW, I still havent led Left Unq - tho Ive seconded it twice without much problem. But I just find it so daunting. At least half a grade harder than the Right.

In reply to sutty:

I expect this was THE Joe B: a friend of mine met him following Red Haze (his own route) about the same time. Those Red Wall E4s are mainly E4 5b: I’m quite sure he could still follow one of them if he felt the inclination.

In reply to the chap who asked whether Joe had ever done a route that would now be graded E4; he certainly led The Skull completely free at the age of about 60. If you meant the FA, then some of his routes – Ramshaw Crack, Red Haze, Dinosaur, now get E4, but usually done originally with a point (or more) of aid. (I’m not sure whether Red Haze had a PA or not: I’ve an idea it did.) But of course it’s a grave error to try to rank historical achievements by the grades routes get with modern gear: it’s apples and pears. The only sensible way is to look at who contemporaries thought was the best.

I believe Rowland would be 65 or 66. I base this on his Cornwall route ‘Second Time Around’, which I think was so named to mark his 50th birthday, and was climbed in (I think) 1986. But anyone with a Cornwall guide can check.

In reply to sutty: My dad (Adrian Perkin)lead Comes the Dervish at E3 this September on his 60th birthday.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Thanks for answering my qu. Amazing him doing the Skull at 60. As you say, we cant possible compare grades. Cemetary Gates would have been about E3 on the first ascent! And Great Slab at Froggatt in plimsolls about E4!

In reply to gordon stainforth: Gordon, trick on Chequers is to solo the bottom crack, it really is only HVS that way

In reply to Al Evans:

Yes, Ive heard that, but it all seems v shiny and pumpy, and I wouldnt partic want to fall off last move! I'm not v good at soloing 5C (a/c to Chris Craggs) on sight!

In reply to gordon stainforth: Its only 5a if you solo it!

In reply to Al Evans:

Don't believe you, Al! ... except I do remember that you put a nut exactly where you want to put your hand ... so maybe Chris C has taken that into account.

In reply to gordon stainforth: Exactly, and its the only nut with any point on the route, I'm sure with a bouldering mat this is an easier solo than lead!

In reply to Al Evans: By the way, I have never had the luxury of a bouldering mat, still dont own one in fact!

In reply to sutty: It was JB the elder. I write the scene reports for Climber, and I rang Joe up when I heard about the route. (Last Of The Summer Wine, E4 - 4 pitches I think)
He recommended it to those that might have enjoyed the pleasures of Rapture Of The Deep on the same wall.
A few weeks later it was repeated by Leigh Mcginley and Mick Pointon (combined age getting on for 100!).
I think all the pitches were lead by Davey Howard Jones (from Ogwen Cottage). Davey is no spring chicken himself, but he does seem to hang out on Red Wall a lot. I met him down there twice that year.

I guess age is a state of mind.

Cheers, Simon.

In reply to Simon Panton: Thanks for clearing that up Simon. it makes absolute sense now we know Joe didnt lead it, I just couldnt see him leading a new E4 on that wall despite the massive admiration and respect I have for the man. Still a good effort to follow something like that, I still think he is, on balance, the best rock climber I have ever seen.
I dont think I have ever actually climbed with Joe, though on occaisions we have been on the same route at the same time. If its possible to be a climbing genius, Joe was it!

In reply to Al Evans:

Ive just got in - so v late to be starting this ... should really be a new thread. But youre right, Joe was definitely a climbing genius, one of the v few. Not just that he was a v good climber, but he had this extraordinary vision and imagination to 'see' routes on terrain that looked, at the time, impossible to his to contemporaries. And then follow that vision thru, time and again. One quite fun way of measuring his achievement is to count up the number of stars of starred classic routes which he put up in Snowdonia - it's hugely ahead of anybody else!

This really should be another thread - but just how many true geniuses have there been in British rockclimbing? Who, apart from being great explorers and pioneers (eg. Littlejohn), have really pushed standards forward?

My immediate list (with v little thought about it) - up to about 1990 - is:

Owen Glynne Jones, Siegfried Herford, Menlove Edwards, Colin Kirkus, Joe Brown, Don Whillans?, Robin Smith, Pete Livesey, Ron Fawcett, John Allen?, Johnny Dawes.

In reply to gordon stainforth:
From a (relatively) recent Scottish perspective, I'd add Cubby Cuthbertson, - look at his cutting edge routes, summer & winter over a period of many years. But then he didn't live in Sheffield.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I did The Skull at the same time as Joe did. Unless he's done it again, he would have been about 50 then. He was with the Wintringham's and Ben led the short crux pitch. I was climbing with Alan Taylor (the Scots one) who had phenominal muscle development in his arms. Joe and myself watched Alan wressle his way up the little overhanging arete from the stance to one side, with Joe commenting "Bloody hell! I hope you don't need arms like that to do it!" Joe cruised the long top pitch (the hardest one really), later claiming that he'd nearly fallen off, but it looked very smooth to me.

In reply to gordon stainforth: I'd include Mick Fowler, for hi incredible breadth of skills, from his routes on Sandstone, routes like Linden, easily the best loose rock climber, and a great mountaineer. No question mark needed after John Allen!

In reply to sutty:

I read a week or so ago about some Italian in his late 50s who just made the 6th ascent of some 8b (french grade)!

late 50s and 8b, or late 60s and E4.....which is more impressive

In reply to Ade: Nick Colton must be over 50 now and lead 8a last year, trust me mate, over 50 isnt old. I'm capable of climbing the same grade as I could in my 30's if I'm on form and in training. I'm expecting to slow up a bit by the time I'm 70 though.
When I was in my 20's and 30's I made a concious decision to save the classic V Diffs and Severes until I was in my 50's, well I'm still leading E2 and now I'm saving them for my 70's

In reply to Al Evans:
Saving the classic Severes, YES.

Should be ANOTHER new thread, classic severes you have saved for later.

some of mine

Manx Wall

Lorraine

Slabs Girdle

All those on Glyder Fach

Several on Craig yr Isfa

I have done a lot at times when the weather has been too bad to do harder routes and had more epics on them as a consequence.
Ian McCallum in the Karabiner Club reckoned for years he could not climb VS, but Severes in the wet held no fears for him. A curious mindset.

In reply to sutty: I'll be after Tophet Wall and a few other things in the Lakes, several routes on Lliwedd and stuff in Scotland (like Agags Groove).
The future still has some bright spots but I think I've done all the grit ones and most of Wales, it will mean more travelling and less climbing, maybe one route a day and retire to the pub. I almost hope I'm not still climbinmg E grades at 70

In reply to sutty: I have saved Stanage as they are not real climbs, only short stuff, only climbed there three times in 45 years.

Stu

In reply to StuT:I am thinking of moving to Sheffield soon, any good area to live in, why is S7 so good?

I will be geting a Photo of Joe Brown soon, taken when he thought he had just done the FA of 5th Ave at Gogarth (with my mate)only to find M.Boysen had done it the day before, I will post it up on the gallery, so that you can see the gear he used (or not) - it was also the day his daughter was born.

Stu

In reply to Al Evans:

As you say the greatest allrounder - still climbing incredibly hard mteering routes e.g an incredible supercouloir thing somewhere in China recently. Yes, Linden was ahead of it's time, and he pushed standards forward on s/e sandstone. And really started all the modern chalk climbing at Beachy Head and Dover - but in terms purely of rockclimbing, standing head and shoulders above everyone else for several years (giving us many classic routes) - not sure if he quite makes the list.

yes, let's remove the qu mark from John Allen!

In reply to Doug:

Yes Cubby should almost certainly be in there. And I wonder about Pete Whillance? But there is this shady border line area where you then feel you'd have to include people like Moffat, Redhead, Bancroft, Pollitt, John Dunne, Seb Grieve, Simon Nadin ... the list just gets longer and longer.

In reply to Chris Shorter:

I stand corrected. I could have sworn I’d read somewhere that he led the whole thing at the age of 60, although I may I suppose be confusing it with Cho Oyu and Suicide Wall.

In reply to Al E: there’s more ways of developing the sport than pushing standards. I’d say both Littlejohn and Fowler expanded it by bringing in new ideas about what was climbable (certainly in their part of the world). If you want pushing standards, I’d say one Ben Moon did as much as anyone, in a different field, agreed.

In reply to sutty:

Here's the link to an article and photos of the 52 year old Italian on an 8b+!
I'm not saying over 50 is old but how many over 50s have done 8anything let alone 8b+ ?

In reply to sutty:

Here's the link to an article and photos of the 52 year old Italian on an 8b+!

http://www.planetmountain.com/English/action.lasso?-database=newseng&-l...

I'm not saying over 50 is old but how many over 50s have done 8anything let alone 8b+ ?

In reply to Al Evans: nick is awesome just go to broughton, crucible of power, and try some of his solid 6c probs he is well capable of climbing harder than 8a. as regards nicks age i think its more like 46.