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There are a billion tennis elbow threads on here, but none which seem to describe the symptoms (well, there maybe are, but I can't be arsed trawling through a billion posts!) So, does this sound like tennis elbow.
I have my arm bent at the elbow and I go to pick something up and if my palm is facing upwards it's not too bad, if my palm is facing to the inside, like you were going to shake hands with someone, then it's sore, and if I try and pick something up with my palm facing downwards it's really sore and I can't fully bend my elbow as it's too sore. The pain feels deep inside, but not on the elbow itself. When I have my palm facing upwards, the pain is on the outside and underside of my elbow/top of forearm. The pain can radiate down the back of my forearm and into my wrist. My whole elbow area feels all warm and burny inside (inflammed I guess) So, does this sound like lateral epicondilitis/osis?
Been getting wee niggles for ages, but when I say niggles I mean just incy wee aches in my forearm, nothing that worried me. But at the wall a couple of weeks back I was trying an awkward, bridging move and was pressing back with my arm and hand and trying to match with my foot at the same time but kept getting pain in my wrist so couldn't do the move. Also, from around the same time (couple of weeks) when I have been trying to do Side Planks, I can only do one or two before a stabbing pain in my hand stops me. Dunno if this is related. Can you get symptoms of tennis elbow into your wrist and hand?
I have my arm bent at the elbow and I go to pick something up and if my palm is facing upwards it's not too bad, if my palm is facing to the inside, like you were going to shake hands with someone, then it's sore, and if I try and pick something up with my palm facing downwards it's really sore and I can't fully bend my elbow as it's too sore. The pain feels deep inside, but not on the elbow itself. When I have my palm facing upwards, the pain is on the outside and underside of my elbow/top of forearm. The pain can radiate down the back of my forearm and into my wrist. My whole elbow area feels all warm and burny inside (inflammed I guess) So, does this sound like lateral epicondilitis/osis?
Been getting wee niggles for ages, but when I say niggles I mean just incy wee aches in my forearm, nothing that worried me. But at the wall a couple of weeks back I was trying an awkward, bridging move and was pressing back with my arm and hand and trying to match with my foot at the same time but kept getting pain in my wrist so couldn't do the move. Also, from around the same time (couple of weeks) when I have been trying to do Side Planks, I can only do one or two before a stabbing pain in my hand stops me. Dunno if this is related. Can you get symptoms of tennis elbow into your wrist and hand?
In reply to lasonj:
To be serious though, do you get pain on the outside of your elbow when you lift a kettle?
To be serious though, do you get pain on the outside of your elbow when you lift a kettle?
In reply to lasonj:
Hmmmm I'm no expert but the problem I had was with a facing down hand on the outside of the elbow and hurt most when I tried to lift things like a heavy box of soap powder. The tendon on this side joins to a small boney protrusion above the elbow that you can feel with your arm bent.
I'd have a lay off as soon as you notice any progressive injury if you want the best chance of recovery.
Hmmmm I'm no expert but the problem I had was with a facing down hand on the outside of the elbow and hurt most when I tried to lift things like a heavy box of soap powder. The tendon on this side joins to a small boney protrusion above the elbow that you can feel with your arm bent.
I'd have a lay off as soon as you notice any progressive injury if you want the best chance of recovery.
In reply to lasonj: tennis elbow - took me about 18 months to be clear of any pain.
I ended up getting a steroid jab prior to the onset of winter so I could swing my axes again !!
I ended up getting a steroid jab prior to the onset of winter so I could swing my axes again !!
In reply to Bill Davidson: Hah, tell me about it, it's really f*cking frustrating!!! I seem to get one thing recovered and start climbing well again, then something else happens
On the positive side though, at least I will still be able to get out into the hills even if I can't climb for a while.
PS - Aye, it hurts more when I lift a kettle. I can feel it all the time, like a dull, burning ache but when I lift something, it goes sharp.
On the positive side though, at least I will still be able to get out into the hills even if I can't climb for a while.
PS - Aye, it hurts more when I lift a kettle. I can feel it all the time, like a dull, burning ache but when I lift something, it goes sharp.
In reply to CurlyStevo: Yup, just tried to lift a heavy box of soap powder. I can lift it abs no probs whatsoever with my good hand but I can barely get it off the shelf with my bad hand
Yup, just texted my wall partner to say no more wall for me for a good while (f*ck! ar*e! b*gger!)
Yup, just texted my wall partner to say no more wall for me for a good while (f*ck! ar*e! b*gger!)
In reply to lasonj: try UKB
In reply to Brian: I am going to PRAY to ALL the gods everywhere that ever existed that if I really behave and look after it, do all the icing and ibuprofening (will have to be gel though cos I can't take pills) and stretching and strengthening, that I can nip it in the bud as I simply, simply can't miss another season of winter!
In reply to lasonj: I had a problem with the old tennis elbow and got some accupunture done on ii....worked a treat..along with the 6 weeks rest i gave it and now some strengthing exercises...i have met people who have been suffering on and off for years with this injury....all i can say is get it sorted sooner rather than later.....
In reply to lasonj:
Oh btw the Metolius Grip Saver thingy has specific exercises to help tendonitis. I still do them about once a week. Break a leg!
Oh btw the Metolius Grip Saver thingy has specific exercises to help tendonitis. I still do them about once a week. Break a leg!
In reply to lasonj: Hate to be another bringer of bad news but.... I got golfer's elbow in my left elbow in April 2006, which took no climbing, 3 cortisone injections, physio and the best part of a year to get rid of, only to be almost immediately replaced by golfer's elbow in the right elbow (same recovery scenario). Around Oct last year I got tennis elbow in my right elbow and only now am beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
So, no real climbing for the last 3 summers.
Do everything to nip it in the bud, don't try and keep climbing or go back to it too quickly, it only prolongs the agony.
So, no real climbing for the last 3 summers.
Do everything to nip it in the bud, don't try and keep climbing or go back to it too quickly, it only prolongs the agony.
In reply to lasonj:
my injury wasn't affected by winter climbing (well much - occasionally i took the weekend off if it was sore the next day but that was rare) if that provides any hope for your. In fact I think it helped it!
my injury wasn't affected by winter climbing (well much - occasionally i took the weekend off if it was sore the next day but that was rare) if that provides any hope for your. In fact I think it helped it!
In reply to lasonj:
cardio exercise, gentle weights and the sauna fixed mine. One of the problems with tendons is they don't get much blood supply hence fix slowly. Both the sauna and cardio increase the blood supply.
cardio exercise, gentle weights and the sauna fixed mine. One of the problems with tendons is they don't get much blood supply hence fix slowly. Both the sauna and cardio increase the blood supply.
In reply to lasonj:
Sounds the same as mine - pain on outside of elbow on lifting with palm down eg coffee cup. If you simulate swinging a racket or an axe, do you get pain?
I rested it for about two months with zero climbing, just a couple of courses of profen, stretching.
When I had no discomfort for everyday stuff - soap powder, coffee cup etc, then I did gentle bouldering, traversing, soloing (up to severe), no overhanging stuff, with no adverse effects.
Seems to be getting through it now, though I reckon that it will be vulnerable at any time I'm not climbing for a while.
Sounds the same as mine - pain on outside of elbow on lifting with palm down eg coffee cup. If you simulate swinging a racket or an axe, do you get pain?
I rested it for about two months with zero climbing, just a couple of courses of profen, stretching.
When I had no discomfort for everyday stuff - soap powder, coffee cup etc, then I did gentle bouldering, traversing, soloing (up to severe), no overhanging stuff, with no adverse effects.
Seems to be getting through it now, though I reckon that it will be vulnerable at any time I'm not climbing for a while.
In reply to lasonj:
The classic test is to stretch your arm out in front of you with the palm facing down and fingers slightly spread. Use your other hand to press gently down on the middle finger and try to stop that moving. If it's tennis elbow it will hurt like hell on the outside of the elbow.
I've had it badly in both arms. The first is virtually pain free all the time now after 18 months and the other nearly recovered after a year. It goes through different phases and at the moment exercise like climbing helps but sudden shocks are still bad.
Someone mention the low blood flow affecting the recovery and this seems to be the key. My consultant quoted a large study comparing the use of anti-inflamatories (including steroid injections and non-steroidals like brufen), acupuncture and a pattern of injections around the site.
This showed the anti-inflamatories only provided interim relief and prolonged the overall recovery times. This was thought to be because it reduced inflamation and blood flow to the area reducing the rate of healing.
Acupuncture showed an improvement over no action but not as much as the pattern of injections. In both cases the treatment was thought to increase trauma in the affected area bringing increased blood flow and increasing the healing rate.
I had previously tried physio and acupuncture with little improvement (although the latter did improve things a bit). My consultant then did the injections which involved injecting many times close to the site of the problem in a stippling pattern. There was nothing more than a local anesthetic in the injection itself. Recovery was very rapid after that.
There are always plenty of anecdotal messages about TE but this guy really seemed to know his stuff and was based on the evidence of a large clinical trial. If he is to be believed then these are the things to do:
1. Complete rest of the affected elbow but maintain your fitness with other exercise.
2. Do not use any anti-inflamatories.
3. Perform the standard strengthening exercises on the arm.
4. Have the stippling injections to speed the recovery time.
5. Don't expect it to clear up quickly even in the best case.
You have my sympathies. It has set back my climbing a great deal but I am now back to where I was before it came on so there is light at the end of the longish tunnel.
The classic test is to stretch your arm out in front of you with the palm facing down and fingers slightly spread. Use your other hand to press gently down on the middle finger and try to stop that moving. If it's tennis elbow it will hurt like hell on the outside of the elbow.
I've had it badly in both arms. The first is virtually pain free all the time now after 18 months and the other nearly recovered after a year. It goes through different phases and at the moment exercise like climbing helps but sudden shocks are still bad.
Someone mention the low blood flow affecting the recovery and this seems to be the key. My consultant quoted a large study comparing the use of anti-inflamatories (including steroid injections and non-steroidals like brufen), acupuncture and a pattern of injections around the site.
This showed the anti-inflamatories only provided interim relief and prolonged the overall recovery times. This was thought to be because it reduced inflamation and blood flow to the area reducing the rate of healing.
Acupuncture showed an improvement over no action but not as much as the pattern of injections. In both cases the treatment was thought to increase trauma in the affected area bringing increased blood flow and increasing the healing rate.
I had previously tried physio and acupuncture with little improvement (although the latter did improve things a bit). My consultant then did the injections which involved injecting many times close to the site of the problem in a stippling pattern. There was nothing more than a local anesthetic in the injection itself. Recovery was very rapid after that.
There are always plenty of anecdotal messages about TE but this guy really seemed to know his stuff and was based on the evidence of a large clinical trial. If he is to be believed then these are the things to do:
1. Complete rest of the affected elbow but maintain your fitness with other exercise.
2. Do not use any anti-inflamatories.
3. Perform the standard strengthening exercises on the arm.
4. Have the stippling injections to speed the recovery time.
5. Don't expect it to clear up quickly even in the best case.
You have my sympathies. It has set back my climbing a great deal but I am now back to where I was before it came on so there is light at the end of the longish tunnel.
In reply to lasonj: Cheers folks, not really after advice on what to do as such as I know how to try and treat it just wanted to make sure that I was correct in thinking it was T.E.
To whoever it was that said about the test with hand down and pushing against resistance on finger, aye that replicates the pain.
Stevo, did you get my email? Am wondering, did you start with the weights straight away, or stretches first until pain and inflammation has settled?
To whoever it was that said about the test with hand down and pushing against resistance on finger, aye that replicates the pain.
Stevo, did you get my email? Am wondering, did you start with the weights straight away, or stretches first until pain and inflammation has settled?
In reply to lasonj:
never got the email.
Did the physio exercises to start with. then once the physio said I could use weights did them to build up strength gradually. Probably after 6-8 weeks.
The cardio/sauna is recommended straight away if your not already doing it.
never got the email.
Did the physio exercises to start with. then once the physio said I could use weights did them to build up strength gradually. Probably after 6-8 weeks.
The cardio/sauna is recommended straight away if your not already doing it.
In reply to lasonj:
PS I could go scrambling with no adverse effects pretty much after a 3 week break.
PS I could go scrambling with no adverse effects pretty much after a 3 week break.
In reply to CurlyStevo: Sent it to your hotmail ad. Aaaaaaaah, wait a mo, I know what the prob is! Tis the battery on my pc, my date says March '02 so the email will have been sent to the bottom of your inbox. Not to worry, was just to ask what I did above. And that's as I expected, stretches first, then weights when after acute phase has passed. Also, did you do any gradeI scrambles? I'm not happy soloing scrambley stuff unless it's grade I ish. If you did do any gradeI scrambles, were any done in the wet?
That's good to know about the winter climbing btw
Actually, just tried to swing my axe and it hurts
Oooh, did you strap up at all? When Tattoo strapped her arm for her elbow prob she was told to strap the wrist and not the actual elbow?
That's good to know about the winter climbing btw
Actually, just tried to swing my axe and it hurts
Oooh, did you strap up at all? When Tattoo strapped her arm for her elbow prob she was told to strap the wrist and not the actual elbow?
In reply to CurlyStevo: Oh, another thing. I'll be out running still and I've started biking again recently to try and get my back used to it again. Not too sure if the biking is ok as I'm holding my arm straight out all the time with my wrist bent. Not sure if the vibration will be good for it either. Were you able to bike ok?
In reply to lasonj: I've had bad tennis elbows for many years and they got so bad that I had to stop climbing completely for 12 months. At it's worst I would be in agony picking up a cup.
My good friend and sports coach / nutritionist Mike Weeks suggested trying Celadrin, a fatty acid supplement what was having amazing results with both arthritis and tendinitis.
Within 5 days I had lost the stabbing pain and within a month I no longer had any discomfort whatsoever. I took Solgar branded Celadrin for 30 days (£20) and then stopped until recently. I have started taking it intermittantly again at present as I am building a new bouldering centre and all the drill torque from the screwing is just making them slightly tweaky again.
It worked wonders for me (it was almost a miracle cure) and for £20 I'd recommend anyone with similar problems to give it a go.
Paul
My good friend and sports coach / nutritionist Mike Weeks suggested trying Celadrin, a fatty acid supplement what was having amazing results with both arthritis and tendinitis.
Within 5 days I had lost the stabbing pain and within a month I no longer had any discomfort whatsoever. I took Solgar branded Celadrin for 30 days (£20) and then stopped until recently. I have started taking it intermittantly again at present as I am building a new bouldering centre and all the drill torque from the screwing is just making them slightly tweaky again.
It worked wonders for me (it was almost a miracle cure) and for £20 I'd recommend anyone with similar problems to give it a go.
Paul
In reply to lasonj:
Dont be swinging the axes Sonj, that will aggrevate the problem. Do however do exercises such as press ups & tricep dips, this should help & I do think the exercises shown here http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/grip-handexercises.htm help, maybe worth invesing in. Like the post above I eventually got the steroid jab & it was worth it
Dont be swinging the axes Sonj, that will aggrevate the problem. Do however do exercises such as press ups & tricep dips, this should help & I do think the exercises shown here http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/grip-handexercises.htm help, maybe worth invesing in. Like the post above I eventually got the steroid jab & it was worth it
In reply to Bill Davidson: Aye, I was just having a wee swing dad, honest, to see if I could!
Cheers, will add tricep dips onto my billion other exercises that I have to do. And, oooooooh I have a gripsaver already from when I had wrist tendonitis and I found it really helped for that. Am sure this elbow thing is all connected with having an icky wrist from when I broke it yrs back cos that wrist is alot tighter compared to the other one at the radial side and the muscle that joins there (extensors) are the ones that join to the lateral epicondyle, so if the tendon is tight at one end, tis bound to affect the muscle and hence the tendon at the other end (in theory anyway me thinks)
Cheers, will add tricep dips onto my billion other exercises that I have to do. And, oooooooh I have a gripsaver already from when I had wrist tendonitis and I found it really helped for that. Am sure this elbow thing is all connected with having an icky wrist from when I broke it yrs back cos that wrist is alot tighter compared to the other one at the radial side and the muscle that joins there (extensors) are the ones that join to the lateral epicondyle, so if the tendon is tight at one end, tis bound to affect the muscle and hence the tendon at the other end (in theory anyway me thinks)
In reply to mrjonathanr: Nice article thanks. And helpful re the bracing as it's something I wasn't too sure of. And that Brachioradialis stretch is helpful as that's the muscle that is aching. <if I'm really lucky, this may just be a muscle strain and not proper tendonitis (it's def not osis)>
In reply to mrjonathanr:
There's a lot of poor information out there. Even some physiotherapists have little idea how to treat golfers elbow or tennis elbow. However, the dodgy elbows article which you posted a link to is tops. This guy really knows what he is talking about. The difference between tendonitis and tendonosis seems crucial. I had big problems for a year until starting his exercises (for golfer's elbow) together with the recommended daily massage. Everything began to come together within a week of beginning the twice daily routine. It has saved my climbing life and I'm currently cranking hard and pain free. I still do the exercise regime as a preventive measure and I suspect the problem would reoccur if I stopped.
There's a lot of poor information out there. Even some physiotherapists have little idea how to treat golfers elbow or tennis elbow. However, the dodgy elbows article which you posted a link to is tops. This guy really knows what he is talking about. The difference between tendonitis and tendonosis seems crucial. I had big problems for a year until starting his exercises (for golfer's elbow) together with the recommended daily massage. Everything began to come together within a week of beginning the twice daily routine. It has saved my climbing life and I'm currently cranking hard and pain free. I still do the exercise regime as a preventive measure and I suspect the problem would reoccur if I stopped.
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