UKC

The use of walkie/talkies or any other such method of communication when climbing. I'm interested in just how common these things are.

I'm very much against them and think they sanitise climbing far too much. In climbing, I'm interested in the whole experience (if it was just about the physical act of climbing, hey I'd be a sport climber) So, every thing appeals to me, struggling to find routes from guide descriptions and possibly getting lost (again being sanitised by over descriptive guide books the actual climbing itself of course; sometimes getting hopelessly tangled with crappy 'stance management' and the resulting stress that might ensue; not being able to hear your climbing partner and if on second screaming and shouting for dear life 'fecking taaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!' or wondering, when your partner has run out all the rope, wether it's safe to climb and very nervously setting off, hoping to feck he has got a belay.

Climbing just wouldn't be the same without all these wee things to test you. IMO.

Are you a yay or a nay to walky talky's and other kinds of things that remove stress when climbing?

In reply to lasonj:

I know where you're coming from, but as I think you recognise, it's only a matter of degree, isn't it? If we wnat a 'purer' experience, why not go out without ropes and harness, map and compass, etc.?

In reply to lasonj:
heyho,
Not really for or against, but their not something i'd bother with. Plus I'd feel the need to talk like i'm in Topgun or something down them and risk being shoved off the belay ledge by an irrate partner!

I don't think they would be that effective at reducing stress, cause i'm pretty confident as soon as they would be useful, the battery would die, i'd drop it or something similar....

I'm well into things like ropes, nuts and belay plates to reduce climbing stress though!!

Stu

In reply to lasonj:

I'm just a luddite.

Y.

In reply to lasonj: I am for them in places like sea cliffs where communication is difficult at the best of times and the party climbing haven't figured out how to communicate with the rope. I am against them based on the fact that as a piece of technology, they can go wrong and leave the climbing party in the sh1t.

In reply to lasonj:

I use them quite a lot on multi-pitches, or on crags near roads. It's not just helpful in that you can hear whats going on. But it reduces the amount of screaming and hollering on crags which to me really detracts from the enjoyment of climbing. The number of crags you go to when all you can hear is 'I said SAFE!!!' .... "Johnny - are you safe yet?" 'I SAID I'M SAFE' etc.

In reply to lasonj: A definite nay. Climbed Main Wall on Cyrn Las earlier this year, with a group of 4 climbers behind us communicating by walky talky- continuously. Initially amusing to listen to the constant verbal stream, but ended up climbing faster and faster just to get out of earshot. Bit of tranquillity on the mountains please

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

Try penecillin - it cures most afflictions


On topic - I'm staunchly against.

In reply to lasonj:

I'd carry a phone with me anywhere, climbing or otherwise, just in case.

But, like when driving, it's impossible to use a phone (not to mention illegal) and concentrate on the task at hand.

Best to just concentrate on what you are doing, leave out the walkie-talkies, etc, and then there are no distractions and less accidents happen.

In reply to Jimmy D: Agreed, but where do we draw the line? Answer is, we don't as it's all very personal. That's not what I'm asking. I'm just curious as to how many are for and how many against (and possibly seeing if there is any discernable pattern)

In reply to jam tart:


Rather than listen to the braying jeffries who drive all the way from south of the border, just to clog up popular routes and pollute the tranquil mountains with screams of 'Im SAFE Johnathon...', 'Are you SAFE Raiph?'

I find it bloody annoying when i'm somewhere remote, and all i hear is people screaming 'Im Safe' with no name reference, especially when there is more than one party. Leads to much confusion, and noise pollution.

I would much rather people either knew the correct procdures and don't have to shout, or they use technology to keep things relatively quiet.

In reply to lasonj:

I'm all for them.


I can spend 10 minutes yelling "SAAAAAAAAFE!!! SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAFE!!! OOFFFF BEEEEEELAAAAAY", or I can say 'ok I'm safe, take me off belay' into a walkie talkie. The latter lets me enjoy the crag environment in a peaceful manner, the former makes my throat hurt.

Yep, having epics where you're taken off belay accidentally during the crux move, your ropes jam, you both spend half an hour freezing your nuts off because she thought you were still setting up the belay and you thought she was taking the belay down, you get benighted due to said 'adventures' is all good clean fun, but like dropping half the rack from the third pitch, or getting your ropes stuck because you haven't extended your gear - I like to think I make those mistakes once so I know not to do them again.

minimised faff = more efficient climbing = climbing harder = having a whole new set of terrifying epics

You climb with dynamic ropes and belay plates don't you? Taking the 'adventure' aspect to its logical conclusion, you should by rights be on hemp lines, waist tie-ins and hip belays. Much more stressful and exciting

I might be with you on certain adventure aspects, but the way I see it, planning ahead for what will happen when not being able to hear your partner is forseeable, (be it a system of tugs, clicks and whistles or a walkie talkie) is just minimising faff rather than sanitising the experience.

FYI if you have a walkie-talkie where you need to push a button to talk (which is the only thing practical with wind and sea noise IME) then pretty much the only time you use it is at the belay anyway. (none of this 'placing number 2 rock now' business)

In reply to lasonj:

I don't know about walkie talkies but I could be persuaded into buying a small VHF radio for use in coastal areas. I was climbing at St David's Head in Pemrokeshire with a mate who had one a few years back . He called up the coastguard after we spotted a dinghy disappearing unintentionally towards the Atlantic at a rate of knots and ten mins later we saw two ribs come out and rescue the guy. Might be handy if stranded somwhere tidal with no mobile coverage (Pembrokeshire!)

On the walkies front I think it all feels a bit gimmicky and I would probably quickly regress to tried and tested rope tugs and shouting.

In reply to alj:

how about 2 tugs for safe and 3 tugs for on belay or something similar?

In reply to Morgan Woods:

2 tugs quite easy to mistake for 'give me more slack, I'm just about to do the crux slap' though

In reply to lasonj:



Depends what you're after from your day. You could have the above or you could take your walkie talkies along and climb a big route in very slick style with no mix-ups or struggles and take pleasure in a job well done. Or you could try and make the actual climbing the challenge rather than the ancillaries like comms and stance mannagement.

Walkie talkies can be annoying becase the sound they make carries so everyone can hear them... and it can be pretty annoying if you're halfway up a tough pitch and you can't change channel and some idiots on another route are discussing what they're going to buy from spar later.

In reply to lasonj:

people who are unable to climb without talking or shouting to each other all the time should be encouraged to use them. i was at the roaches on a windy day a couple of weeks ago. my ears were ringing from the people all around me screaming at each other by the end of the day.

personally, have never really felt the need for radios etc under most circumstances

Ok, so far we have 8 against and 3 for (with 2 sitting on the fence and 1 not answering)

Out of the 3 fors, we have 3 young men 30ish and below and all from England...........

So, Rusty's comments of 'braying Geoffries,' may hold some weight, lol!



;oD

In reply to lasonj:

If at a popular crag/face/cliff then I'd use them if I had them as, as someone said above, it helps eliminate confusion when theres a million folk screaming 'safe'. If I was up at Sputan Dearg or the like and we were only party there and someone bought them out, I'd shove them down their throat.

Edited to say: That said, I tend not to climb where theres a million folk..

In reply to lasonj:

out me down on the 'for' side.

Ps, you may not want to climb with me this winter when you find out whats on my lsit to santa

In reply to lasonj:
Against.

Have a mobile in a drybag in the top pocket of your rucksack, switched off, by all means. Only take it out if there is an emergency. Otherwise, mobile phones have no place in the mountains as they cause irritation and annoyance to others. I remember topping out on Ben Nevis on a perfect winter's day, only for the chatter of people on mobiles to drift over the plateau from the shelter. It's an intrusion.

As for radios or walkie-talkies, we saw enough of that from teams on Castor's face chattering into their handsets (presumably to 'base camp' or 'mission control'). I fail to see why it was remotely necessary. Fine, you don't expect the Alps to be quiet or dignified but it added a lot of racket and hassle, particularly as the climbers were concentrating more on their chatter and less on the climb (they were trying to simultaneously negotiate the bergschrund and have a natter with their mates).

In reply to Alex Roddie:
Yours
Major Fotherington-Smythe, Tunbridge Wells

In reply to lasonj:

I'm with you personally but it's up to other people what they do. I don't go multi-pitch climbing for the convenience of it all and working out an effective communication system is one of the err joys of it...for me.

In reply to lasonj:

I am for them, they save a lot of shouting and I only use them for the essentials such as, Safe / Off Belay / Etc, and not for general chitchat.

In reply to Siward: I climb a lot on Swanage, and once you're over the top there's no way you can hear each other, even on a fairly calm day. Rope tugs don't work so well as rope drag destroys the signal.

When seconding last time out I stood around on a ledge for several minutes before my buddy realised that there was 20' of slack in the rope -he hadn't taken in since I got off the ground as there was just too much drag to feel it - and he didn't know I was climbing because I couldn't tell him.

So I'm getting hold of a couple of radios. I don't want a running commentary, I just don't fancy groundfall.

After all, I could climb without a headtorch, but I don't. I can see that it might come in useful.

In reply to lasonj: Don't need it when i climb with 'Bucketmooth' from Dundee.You can hear him on the Etive Slabs when climbing on the Buachaille!

In reply to clipskipper: See, I don't get that. Surely your belayer can feel through the rope when the second is climbing or not, and if there is drag then can pull the rope as tight as poss to pull in that slack till he can't pull anymore (unless on traverse of course, but then the second would probs be glad of a little slack anyway) And, if there is so much drag in the system that the above isn't possible then dare I suggest that getting rope management sussed is more of a priority?

To Rusty: Traitor! See Jo's response to what I'll do with your radios if you bring them out in winter

In reply to dek: Lol, class!

In reply to lasonj:
for it

In reply to lasonj:

Against as, enough noise here, get out to get away from all noise and stuff :o/

Oh forgot...'kkkkkkkkkkkkkkk' over and out!

In reply to lasonj: When the situation dictates - for example trying to shout over the traffic at Avon.

However the two/three tugs thing is useful as long as you have an agreed system. Your belay should be aware of how long the pitch is, how much rope has gone through and use a bit of common sense as to when you are safe or when you need slack. Equally the climber should be aware of how his tugs for slack could be misinterpretted.

I've used the multi pitching and I've multipitched without them. It can be hell of a lot easier with them, however like all electronic devices (radios/gps etc) you've got to have a strategy for when they don't work or you could find your self a in a spot of bother.

In reply to lasonj:

Your just worried i might make inappropriate noises as you reach the crux

paaaaarrrp!

In reply to rusty_nails: Lol! If you did that, it would then be a case of 'BEEEEEEEEELOOOOOOOWWWW' 'Ooooops, sorry about that A,' <as walky talky stots off Rusty's helmet (and aaaaaaarg, that sounds wrong, lol!) and disappears into the depths below, never to be seen till the following summer.

In reply to lasonj:


Your climbing escapades sound wayyy funner than mine somehow!? ;oP

In reply to lasonj:

Im against them, i think they would cause more stress than they remove.

Imagine beeing on a multipitch route with you, and your shouting down wanting directions as you cant figure out where to go.
Without the walkie at least i can pretend i cant hear you, and leave you to sort it out youself

In reply to lasonj: I wouldnt bother, but Im not bothered if someone does, to be honest I really nearly didnt bother having an opinion : )

In reply to lasonj: against, yet more faff in a blizzard, emphasis should be placed on finding a good partner not a piece of electronics

how does SLAAAAAAAAACK OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNN BLYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO JEEEEEEEEFFFFFREYEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! sound on a wee motorola thingy anyway? is it decipherable or inaudible statically charged nonsense?

In reply to Alex Roddie: keep your mobile on your person not in yer rucksack

In reply to lasonj:Seen them in use 3 times in winter:
1 In Sneachda by a couple in plain sight of each other. They seemed to work but so did waving and talking.
2 On Taxus as leaders belay fell apart and he screamed into radio repeatedly for second not to fall off, nothing heard because of wind.
3 Standing on top of the leaning boulder at the end of the Eastern Travese on Tower Ridge in Winter as a couple who had been moving together on a pair of half ropes with a sronger leader tried to explain to him that they weren't climbing because the ropes were snarled in a football sized mass (and that him heaving on them from the top of the Tower wasnt helping). All they got in reply was static and more heaving. After half an hour my wife let me offer to untangle them (they were very pleasant and apologetic) so that we could overtake them by traversing round the Tower. Their indignant leader ranted at my wife as to how 'that wasn't the route' that we'd done as he appeared behind us at Tower Gap. We ran away before he could explain the error of our ways...... or we were forced to help with another cats cradle.
So whenever I've seen them used its been by people with other options or who could have done with focusing on more fundamental climbing skills and the weather has made them largely ineffectual anyway.

In reply to lasonj:

Seems like a good idea to me, I've seen plenty of people using them in Avon when you can't hear a thing from your partner. Just a better communication system than 3 tugs.

As for the idea that "we" go climbing to get away from these things - I don't, I go climbing to climb and anything that lets me just get on with what I enjoy doing is a good thing.

Right,

We have 15 against (I'm putting you in the against camp Jo cos like you said you don't climb at very many popular places and cos it fits better with my theory :oD)

We have 3 sitting on the fence, and we have 8 for (still all young English blokes, apart from Rusty who has defected) Of course, it may be mostly young, English blokes who post on UKC but I say the evidence points to us Scots being more adventurous than you sassenachs

In reply to lasonj: I've carried them on many winter routes.....and never used them. So, I guess they're too much hassle!

In reply to lasonj:

Make that 16 against.

....but then Lochnagar on a good winter day with 2 or 3 "uni" climbing clubs in attendance would be a much quieter place if they were issued freely as they left the bus in the Loch Muick carpark

In reply to lasonj:

> Of course, it may be mostly young, English blokes who post on UKC but I say the evidence points to us Scots being more adventurous than you sassenachs

Or it could be that we just recognise and accept that any conversation between two Scottish climbers (especially in winter) is likely to severely contravene any broadcasting regulations

In reply to jam tart:

Oh no! They drive you mad on trains. Is it still against the law to kill, slowly and painfully, people who yell into mobies on trains and use walkie-talkies in the mountains?

In reply to lasonj:

Yes, but my vote against is the trump card because I will personally strangle, slowly and painfully, anyone who uses a walkie-talkie on a climb near me.

Hang on, you say, how will you get to the perpetrators? And what if they are a gang of hard cases? And you are a big softie. I know all that, but you get my gyst.

In reply to lasonj: before i answer, i will say i have never used a walkie-talkie ( apart from the pair i got for xmas when i was 12) oh, & i am english.

i cant see what is so wrong with using a pair whilst climbing. how can you find them intrusive & no place in the peaceful mountains, yet yelling SAFE, OFF BELAY etc is fine??? i know this has prob been said already.

In reply to davey_briggs: Its a good point you make there Davey. I just dont think a walkie talkie is better than the almost telepathic relationship one can have with ones partner.

lasonj's problem is probably that they dont works so well with clumsy digits and the spittle from too much "ach" gives problems with the circuit boards.

In reply to Fawksey: i have to admit, i did once think about getting a set when i saw a pair of climbers with a pair a couple of seasons ago ( ooh look! i hav`nt got any of that kit!!!) but then thought of the hassle in trying to get them out of my pocket with my hands made useless with "hot-aches" then thought " maybe not" ........ half way through septamber & winter climbing topics again!!!

In reply to lasonj: I'm all for them. It makes things quieter for everyone else, makes things more clear (and in theory safer) for leader and second. However, on things like grit outcrops at the usual 10 - 15m I think they would be overkill (not that it would stop me lol). Sometimes I like laughing at the sounds of people shouting safe or off belyay loud enough that the entire county here it when they are in still weather and 8m from their buddy. Gives the sport a bit of culture, but ultimately if your a ropes length from your partner around an arete and in readonable wind they would prove bloody useful.

In reply to davey_briggs: we use an aerosol air horn underground, one blast and we head out. We also head out if we feel a sudden rush of air (somethings pushing it) or rats run past (they are running from something!)

In reply to lasonj:

Fair point, and I've never been unhappy climbing with him. I think it was the traverse issue that made it difficult to judge how much to take in.

In reply to lasonj:

I would like to be against. However in practice I actually use them quite a lot. I have established problems distinguishing speech from background noise and I find a radio with a headphone easier to comprehend than yelling if it is windy or there is noise from the sea or traffic. That said I keep their use to a minimum, I will avoid using them when I can and when I am forced to use them I restrict their use to climbing calls only rather than chatting away and annoying everyone else on the crag.

I guess you could put me on the fence really....I don't like them but circumstances mean that I often find them useful and on occasion invaluable.

In reply to thomasadixon:

Amen to all of that. I've used them in the past and will use them again, and I don't care what any patronising Scots think of me

(spoken as a young Welshman)

In reply to Alun:


As a Welshman, your opinion doesn't count ;oD

In reply to lasonj:

As long as I'm not counted along with the English, that suits me :P

In reply to Alun: :oD

In reply to lasonj:

How difficult would it be to surgically remove a walky-talky from a human rectum? It might cause a life-threatening loss of blood. Probably best to leave it in. It would make you walk in a funny, John-Wayne-like manner, though. And it would make attending to your ablutions a little bit more difficult.

In reply to lasonj:

I've used them a couple of times & I must say I did find them useful, particularly for getting a quiet word in my ear that I'm running out of rope. We had them round our necks tucked in under clothing & only needed to talk quietly into them. Far better than howling over the wind, etc.

In reply to lasonj:

Not used them (or plan to), but think they're a good idea. I'd rather have people chat away in their radios than do the same but then shouting.
If I would get them I'd probably put them off when climbing (so I don't have to listen to the noise it makes) and only use them on belays.

I've never really used a system of three tugs or whatever, it just doesn't work. When I'm at the top of something but out of shouting distance I just pull very hard for 20sec, then give my partner 30seconds to take me off belay, then repeat...
Then again, I'm becoming more and more of a sport climber, and is the climbing itself also quite important. With minimised faff/worries you can climb a lot harder...

In reply to lasonj:

I'm happy to admit, as a Scottish burd, that I think using radios is a great idea. I can have big enough epics without the added hassle of not being able to communicate with my partner.

In reply to lasonj:
I agree - walkie talkies are just more faff.

If the rope runs out then take the climber off belay and as long as they have some gear in consider starting to dismantle your belay and possibly climbing some easy ground if they need more rope!

When the rope starts to get taken in in short spurts then your on belay and you can start climbing...

In reply to lasonj:

I've not read the thread, so this is just a response to the OP:

I've never used them and have no urge to do so. I reckon they add another dimension of faff, another "essential" bit of kit, and another element to get away from the fundamental act of climbing. A couple of mates use them, but they are instructory types who are more into techniques, gear and fannying about that the actual climbing.

I can't imagine radios would be fun in winter. Apart from the faff of trying to use them with gloves on, sticking them in your hood and trying to keep them free of spindrift etc, winter climbing, especially in gullies, can be very noisy with wind and spindrift howling around. There is already too much fannying about to do in winter without adding these things to the mix.

In reply to lasonj: Curious to hear the rather emotive arguments against radios being put here. They are far less intrusive than people bellowing at the top of their voices (frequently still ineffectively) and much more reliable than rope-tug systems. The idea of them being an extra faff has some truth, but so does any piece of equipment from cams to carrying trainers up a route. Mine are very small, the size of about 6 credit cards put together, and slip round my kneck on a leash.

I use them, especially on sea-cliffs and in Winter, and find them very useful. On somewhere like Swanage, on the mid-cliff belay on Boulder Ruckle, I really, really want to know I am being belayed before I start climbing up a vertical cliff. As for diluting the experience, there is atmosphere and to spare in the Ruckle.

Each to their own, but I can't see why poor communication is any kind of a virtue.

In reply to Simon4:


Yes, I find it odd, too. There's also a bit of strange logic going on; somehow, people who want to use radios to communicate quietly with each other are braying idiots. Surely, the braying idiots are the ones who aren't using radios?

Weird.

I've never used a radio to climb, but I've had times when it would have been useful. I'm also aware that voice-activiated radios overcome many of the objections of faff, cold hands, pockets, blah, blah, blah that have been put forward. They do mean that the leader's curses and mutterings are broadcast to the second. And the second's dark mutterings about faffing are broadcast to the leader...

In reply to lasonj:

I don't think they give you anything that an effectively executed system of tugs doesn't and would never use them myself, but dont really have any issues with others doing so.

In reply to Simon4:

Succinctly put. I agree.

I wouldn't like to use one winter climbing (too many gloves), but for sea-cliff climbing they are great.

In reply to captain paranoia: I think my radios do have voice-activation available, but I have turned it off. Otherwise every time there was a gust of wind, the second would hear meaningless crackling.

Normally I keep them switched off (conserves batteries) and under clothing while climbing anyway, it is on the belays that communication is needed.

In reply to Alun:


They are also useful on any long pitches where there is substantial external noise, like road-noise in Matlock Bath. I used one yesterday on the top of the main pitch of Original Route on High Tor (about 37m pitch), it was quite unambiguous which calls we were trying to pass, no vaguely heard shouting over the distance and traffic. We each knew exactly what the score was, which is pretty comforting on a very imposing cliff.

Actually I do use them for Winter climbing, particulary useful if you have 60m ropes, so that you can be quite a long way away from your partner. Despite my radios being tiny, I have managed to use them successfully with both daschteins and ice-climbing mitts, as the "talk" button is large and obvious.

Addmittedly this is mostly Winter climbing in places like the Ecrins, I haven't tried to use them in a Cairngorm blizzard.

In reply to Erik B:

Like the guys on an Amazon expedition who radio'd base camp and caused endless confusion. Their boats got washed over a waterfall & they asked over a crackly radio for two punts and a canoe..........

Not gonna finish that old and very tasteless joke

In reply to lasonj:

Not sure how you'll score this lot:

1) Borrowed a pair to use new routing in complex terrain in Jordan but found shouting easier (the w-ts only seemed to work in line of sight).
2) Saw a Scottish pair using them on N Buttress on the Buchaille last winter -- made rope management v slick and straightforward for them.
3) The above persuaded my climbing partner to buy a pair but we found it a hassle setting them up when we were on the Ben a couple of weeks later.
4) Used them with a couple of friends (one American, one British) in Yosemite in May. They were very useful: kept the noise down on the crag, made communication unambiguous, but a nuisance when others were on the same channel.
5) I've seen them being used in the alps and felt neutral about them.
6) I was once involved in a rescue where the leader narrowly avoided being killed; had the pair had walkie talkies, things would have been better for them.

In general, it seems to me that A) keeping noise down on crags is a good thing; B) tugs on the rope don't always work and it's important to be able to judge what your partner is doing and act accordingly.

I'd certainly be prepared to give using them a go again.

In reply to Solaris:

Make sure you have a pair that support sub-channels (normally 8 subchannels per channel, 8 channels in total). Note, sub-channels do not provide privacy, but make cross-traffic much less likely.