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Forgive me if some of my questions below are a bit thick - just thought I'd kick off a thread to get some useful feedback.
I had a ball earlier in the year during my first winter season, in Glen Coe and on The Ben - routes like Dorsal Arete, Aonach Eagach, NC Gully, Sron na Lairig, Curved Ridge and Ledge Route - all of which were protected where necessary with wires, hexes, and slings.
I've been reading my guide books in eager anticipation of the coming season, and have vague ambitions to push on to Grade III routes (after a few more at II perhaps). Some of the Grade III routes I'm looking at are described as often containing small ice pitches - so I've been doing a bit of gear shop browsing.
A few questions... ... ...
Ice screws - seem very expensive, but I get the impression it's worth paying a bit for quality gear? How many / what lengths would you suggest for getting started (remember - about Grade IIIish, maybe try IV later if the season goes well).
Pitons / Knifeblades etc - how common are these? I saw a few in situ last year, gully walls etc. Should my Grade III rack include any? Type? Size?
Retailers - any bargain hints / recommendations?
Second hand - advisable or not? Anyone looking to sell?
Anyway, thanks in advance for any help! Jamie.
I had a ball earlier in the year during my first winter season, in Glen Coe and on The Ben - routes like Dorsal Arete, Aonach Eagach, NC Gully, Sron na Lairig, Curved Ridge and Ledge Route - all of which were protected where necessary with wires, hexes, and slings.
I've been reading my guide books in eager anticipation of the coming season, and have vague ambitions to push on to Grade III routes (after a few more at II perhaps). Some of the Grade III routes I'm looking at are described as often containing small ice pitches - so I've been doing a bit of gear shop browsing.
A few questions... ... ...
Ice screws - seem very expensive, but I get the impression it's worth paying a bit for quality gear? How many / what lengths would you suggest for getting started (remember - about Grade IIIish, maybe try IV later if the season goes well).
Pitons / Knifeblades etc - how common are these? I saw a few in situ last year, gully walls etc. Should my Grade III rack include any? Type? Size?
Retailers - any bargain hints / recommendations?
Second hand - advisable or not? Anyone looking to sell?
Anyway, thanks in advance for any help! Jamie.
In reply to J Brown:
What gear you need depends on the routes you will tackle. The guidebooks usually have good advice on this. Still, its worth taking an ice screw or two and a warthog or two on any Scottish route, even if you plan to use nuts and hexes for everything. There's nothing quite so reassuring as getting a warthog into a good bit of frozen turf after a necky lead. I hear good reports of bulldogs for similar uses.
Ice screws - its definately worth paying the money for good ice screws. The quick-placement ones are very expensive, but well worth it. You will realise this as you hang by one axe and footer about trying to get that ice screw in - anything that makes it faster and slicker is worth paying for. And you want them sharp. I wouldn't buy second hand, and I wouldn't buy from an unknown manufacturer. If you're doing lots of ice (eg Beinn Udlaidh) you may want to have especially springy ropes and/or use screamers / ripstops to reduce the shock load on ice gear.
Enjoy!
What gear you need depends on the routes you will tackle. The guidebooks usually have good advice on this. Still, its worth taking an ice screw or two and a warthog or two on any Scottish route, even if you plan to use nuts and hexes for everything. There's nothing quite so reassuring as getting a warthog into a good bit of frozen turf after a necky lead. I hear good reports of bulldogs for similar uses.
Ice screws - its definately worth paying the money for good ice screws. The quick-placement ones are very expensive, but well worth it. You will realise this as you hang by one axe and footer about trying to get that ice screw in - anything that makes it faster and slicker is worth paying for. And you want them sharp. I wouldn't buy second hand, and I wouldn't buy from an unknown manufacturer. If you're doing lots of ice (eg Beinn Udlaidh) you may want to have especially springy ropes and/or use screamers / ripstops to reduce the shock load on ice gear.
Enjoy!
In reply to J Brown:
ice screws are pricey - but you only care about that when you're paying for them. I own six in total, a couple of 20cm ones for belays, a couple of 15 cm's for runners and a couple of 10 cm ones for panic situations.
a couple of warthogs, as Almost Sane says - bomber in turf - always a comfort to get one in
As for pegs, again I tend to carry about 6 in smaller sizes - I'm only looking to place them where a chock won't fit
Generally keep a Deadman in the top compartment of my sack- on the assumption that if I need to place it, it'll be for a belay and I'll be able to take my sack off to do it
Spend as much as you can afford and buy the best you can - you only buy it once, and if you buy the best you only bitch when you pay for it - buy cheap and you bitch every time you use it
hope this helps
ice screws are pricey - but you only care about that when you're paying for them. I own six in total, a couple of 20cm ones for belays, a couple of 15 cm's for runners and a couple of 10 cm ones for panic situations.
a couple of warthogs, as Almost Sane says - bomber in turf - always a comfort to get one in
As for pegs, again I tend to carry about 6 in smaller sizes - I'm only looking to place them where a chock won't fit
Generally keep a Deadman in the top compartment of my sack- on the assumption that if I need to place it, it'll be for a belay and I'll be able to take my sack off to do it
Spend as much as you can afford and buy the best you can - you only buy it once, and if you buy the best you only bitch when you pay for it - buy cheap and you bitch every time you use it
hope this helps
In reply to J Brown:
Remember you only need to get half the gear required on the proviso that your partner gets the other half. A couple of screws plus a couple of pegs and a warthog each would be about right to start. Used warthogs a fair bit but didn't place the bulldog last year. Oh and a deadman between you.
I would also recommend practicing placing all this shiny new stuff whilst not on a climb and then giving it all a good tug. Just consign yourself to a day or morning spent doing this and don't worry about the climbing.
You will then reap the rewards in two ways:
- When you're in a blizzard, sh*ting yourself well above your last gear, fumbling with axes, gloves etc and trying to hammer this new thing in you should have a better idea how.
- Once you've placed it you'll have much greater confidence in the holding power of snow, ice and frozen mud...
This oft-linked article by Andy K is quite good:
http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Winter_Rack_379.html
Remember you only need to get half the gear required on the proviso that your partner gets the other half. A couple of screws plus a couple of pegs and a warthog each would be about right to start. Used warthogs a fair bit but didn't place the bulldog last year. Oh and a deadman between you.
I would also recommend practicing placing all this shiny new stuff whilst not on a climb and then giving it all a good tug. Just consign yourself to a day or morning spent doing this and don't worry about the climbing.
You will then reap the rewards in two ways:
- When you're in a blizzard, sh*ting yourself well above your last gear, fumbling with axes, gloves etc and trying to hammer this new thing in you should have a better idea how.
- Once you've placed it you'll have much greater confidence in the holding power of snow, ice and frozen mud...
This oft-linked article by Andy K is quite good:
http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Winter_Rack_379.html
In reply to J Brown:
I reckon you need
1 medimum to large knife blad (you could get 2 of differing sizes)
1 medium to large angle
1 medium king pin
Ice Screws - eventually you'll need 4 but a couple will see you in good stead if I was getting two I'd get 1 very long one (around 20 cm) for abalkalov threads and good ice and one smallish medium one (16 cm or so). For Scotland I'd err towards Black Diamond Turbo Express as they are light, good and rack easy. I have 4 BD TE one of each size from 13cm up and that has suited me just fine!
I have warthogs but would only really bother taking them out now for climbing in the southern highlands. Bulldogs are slightly more usefull
Deadmans are usefull. They make reasonable protection for cornices and speed up setting snow belays in neve by a massive amount
I reckon you need
1 medimum to large knife blad (you could get 2 of differing sizes)
1 medium to large angle
1 medium king pin
Ice Screws - eventually you'll need 4 but a couple will see you in good stead if I was getting two I'd get 1 very long one (around 20 cm) for abalkalov threads and good ice and one smallish medium one (16 cm or so). For Scotland I'd err towards Black Diamond Turbo Express as they are light, good and rack easy. I have 4 BD TE one of each size from 13cm up and that has suited me just fine!
I have warthogs but would only really bother taking them out now for climbing in the southern highlands. Bulldogs are slightly more usefull
Deadmans are usefull. They make reasonable protection for cornices and speed up setting snow belays in neve by a massive amount
In reply to J Brown:
Thanks for all the comments so far guys. I'll read the Andy Kirkpatrick thing when I get home tonight.
Thanks for all the comments so far guys. I'll read the Andy Kirkpatrick thing when I get home tonight.
In reply to J Brown:
Lots of good sense in the posts above. I would underline the point that gear is really route-specific in Scotland and varies a lot.
On ice screws, get the best. I've used the BD Turbo Express and they are very good, but streets ahead for me are the Grivel 360s: the big winding handle makes them much easier to place, and they do not have a hanger like the BD TEs, so you can get them into awkward spots that the BD TE won't go into. The Grivel 360s are awkward to rack, but just add a loop (like a split ring or a loop of cord and you're sorted.
Lots of good sense in the posts above. I would underline the point that gear is really route-specific in Scotland and varies a lot.
On ice screws, get the best. I've used the BD Turbo Express and they are very good, but streets ahead for me are the Grivel 360s: the big winding handle makes them much easier to place, and they do not have a hanger like the BD TEs, so you can get them into awkward spots that the BD TE won't go into. The Grivel 360s are awkward to rack, but just add a loop (like a split ring or a loop of cord and you're sorted.
In reply to Eric Herring:
Thanks for that.
Anyone got specific preferences one way or the other:
Black Diamond Turbo Express vs Grivel 360
I guess it's an individual thing, but just trying to glean as much info as possible before I start denting my (HBoS) bank balance.
Thanks.
Thanks for that.
Anyone got specific preferences one way or the other:
Black Diamond Turbo Express vs Grivel 360
I guess it's an individual thing, but just trying to glean as much info as possible before I start denting my (HBoS) bank balance.
Thanks.
In reply to J Brown:
Get both BD Turbo ex + Griv 360s.
Turbos rack better and bit faster to start.
360 go places that turbos won't but a pain to rack easily.
Both top notch screws though.
Get both BD Turbo ex + Griv 360s.
Turbos rack better and bit faster to start.
360 go places that turbos won't but a pain to rack easily.
Both top notch screws though.
In reply to J Brown: IMO don't get 360s get Grivel Helix. I use BDs but when I've used helix they go in easier than anything on the lead, and are easy to rack and blow through. The 360s are harder to rack and very awkward to blow through. Nevertheless, all good screws. Hope this helps.
In reply to J Brown:
Secondhand is only a reasonable option if you have a substantial engineering background and get to look them over first.
I agree with the ideas above about buying a couple now and trying to get your climbing partner to stump up for more. Then persuade favourite Auntie to give you one for Christmas every year.
Secondhand is only a reasonable option if you have a substantial engineering background and get to look them over first.
I agree with the ideas above about buying a couple now and trying to get your climbing partner to stump up for more. Then persuade favourite Auntie to give you one for Christmas every year.
In reply to J Brown:
Most points covered by others. I personally found Grivel screws cut into hard water ice better than anything else (even marginally better than the BD ones). It's easier to rack several BD screws on one karb while Grivel ones can be awkward to rack if you mix with other brands. They are both very well made and designed.
If you want to save £5-10 on each screw the ones without express handles will go in just as fast (if you use your palm to turn). I found the main advantage with the handles is when you get the screw out, you have something to hold on to hence less likely to drop the screw when it suddenly come loose.
If you're just starting to build up your winter rack it's worthwhile to get at least one 22cm one and an ice thread (Abalakov) tool (can be homemade hook out of a clothes hanger/bicycle wheel spoke). If you run out of screws you can always make ice thread runners/belays and they are just as strong as screws if well placed. Besides it's cheaper to abandon a cord (rather than the screw) for an emergency abseil.
I found that for many Scottish winter routes I didn't use many screws unless the condition is very good and the route is a fat gully/ice face. Your most reassuring runners are often a bomber nut/hex/tricam placement. For pitons I normally carry 1 or 2 knifeblade/kingpin plus one channel. The thin knifeblade (medium length) got used most often as you can usually place a chock if the crack is big enough for a channel.
Watch out for cornices as they often make a relatively simple route very risky (and scary!). I carry a small monocular with me in the winter mainly to check out the cornices before I chose a route.
> Black Diamond Turbo Express vs Grivel 360
Most points covered by others. I personally found Grivel screws cut into hard water ice better than anything else (even marginally better than the BD ones). It's easier to rack several BD screws on one karb while Grivel ones can be awkward to rack if you mix with other brands. They are both very well made and designed.
If you want to save £5-10 on each screw the ones without express handles will go in just as fast (if you use your palm to turn). I found the main advantage with the handles is when you get the screw out, you have something to hold on to hence less likely to drop the screw when it suddenly come loose.
If you're just starting to build up your winter rack it's worthwhile to get at least one 22cm one and an ice thread (Abalakov) tool (can be homemade hook out of a clothes hanger/bicycle wheel spoke). If you run out of screws you can always make ice thread runners/belays and they are just as strong as screws if well placed. Besides it's cheaper to abandon a cord (rather than the screw) for an emergency abseil.
I found that for many Scottish winter routes I didn't use many screws unless the condition is very good and the route is a fat gully/ice face. Your most reassuring runners are often a bomber nut/hex/tricam placement. For pitons I normally carry 1 or 2 knifeblade/kingpin plus one channel. The thin knifeblade (medium length) got used most often as you can usually place a chock if the crack is big enough for a channel.
Watch out for cornices as they often make a relatively simple route very risky (and scary!). I carry a small monocular with me in the winter mainly to check out the cornices before I chose a route.
In reply to J Brown:
I've not done much winter stuff and like you have just started last year. I managed to put together a fairly decent rack pretty cheaply by some serious shopping around.
I got Grivel Helixs somewhere for about £30 each and have been really happy with them. I only bought three and then bought two cheaper, slower, long Mountain Technology screws for belays.
I got a warthog and a bulldog and found both really reassuring when placed. Satisfying too.
'mon the snow!!
Bruce
I've not done much winter stuff and like you have just started last year. I managed to put together a fairly decent rack pretty cheaply by some serious shopping around.
I got Grivel Helixs somewhere for about £30 each and have been really happy with them. I only bought three and then bought two cheaper, slower, long Mountain Technology screws for belays.
I got a warthog and a bulldog and found both really reassuring when placed. Satisfying too.
'mon the snow!!
Bruce
In reply to J Brown:
Some good advice already. The grivel ice screws get my “best in test” vote.
The deadman has fallen out of vogue over the last few years but for those classic badly protected gullies they are essential (imho). I think a lot of people don’t carry them because the feel they are to difficult to place, carry or have an opinion they don’t work (or they place them in there rucksacks thinking they will dig them out when necessary but when that moment comes its to much of a faff or they are too extremes to get the rucksack off, so eventually leave them at home). Well they do work and learning how to place them is not that hard, but needs a little practise, as well as understanding there limitations. Buckets seats, and buried axes again have there place, and again are all subject to limitations, pro’s and con’s and yep snow type.
Really handy thing I’ve got is a snow shovel that can double up as a deadman, but you couldn’t carry it on you harness! Always thought there would be a good market for a deadman, that you could fix your axe to form a shovel. I saw a “Heath Robinson” style thing once, looked okay, home made, but the person trashed there jacket as they kept catching there pick! Not so good….
Avalanche probe as well, great for finding cornices in whiteout! Wave it like a magic wand!
TTFN
Jamie
Some good advice already. The grivel ice screws get my “best in test” vote.
The deadman has fallen out of vogue over the last few years but for those classic badly protected gullies they are essential (imho). I think a lot of people don’t carry them because the feel they are to difficult to place, carry or have an opinion they don’t work (or they place them in there rucksacks thinking they will dig them out when necessary but when that moment comes its to much of a faff or they are too extremes to get the rucksack off, so eventually leave them at home). Well they do work and learning how to place them is not that hard, but needs a little practise, as well as understanding there limitations. Buckets seats, and buried axes again have there place, and again are all subject to limitations, pro’s and con’s and yep snow type.
Really handy thing I’ve got is a snow shovel that can double up as a deadman, but you couldn’t carry it on you harness! Always thought there would be a good market for a deadman, that you could fix your axe to form a shovel. I saw a “Heath Robinson” style thing once, looked okay, home made, but the person trashed there jacket as they kept catching there pick! Not so good….
Avalanche probe as well, great for finding cornices in whiteout! Wave it like a magic wand!
TTFN
Jamie
In reply to J Brown:
Have a look at this clip;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1863958284744514965
interesting finds regarding ice anchors.
would be interesting to know what force the dynamometer was reading!
Have a look at this clip;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1863958284744514965
interesting finds regarding ice anchors.
would be interesting to know what force the dynamometer was reading!
In reply to J Brown:
I favour DMM Revolution ice screws meself...can't fault em
I favour DMM Revolution ice screws meself...can't fault em
In reply to Jamie Simpson - Alpine Dragons:
Is your snow shovel deadman a DIY garden shed product or an UIAA approved version? I had the same idea a few years ago and made an aluminum spade with a hole for a removable cable and a tubular slot at the back for the axe handle. Works like a pig on both side unfortunately - it's an awkward shape for a shovel and the tubular slot makes it very difficult to be buried as a deadman. I though gear manufacturers must have had similar ideas and would be able to make something that actually works. However I haven't seen anything like this in the shops. The nearest thing is a Grivel plastic shovel with steel blade and a short handle which can be extended with an axe. Don't think it's strong enough as an anchor though!
http://www.grivel.com/Products/PRODUCT_NEWS.asp
After my failure I bought the yellow BCA snow shovel and use it with my axe (Cassin Extreme) as a handle. It involves some homemade fixing but works well - even better than the original handle. Still wouldn't work as a deadman though. I just have to bury my axes if I need a snow belay.
> Really handy thing I’ve got is a snow shovel that can double up as a deadman, but you couldn’t carry it on you harness! Always thought there would be a good market for a deadman, that you could fix your axe to form a shovel. I saw a “Heath Robinson” style thing once, looked okay, home made, but the person trashed there jacket as they kept catching there pick! Not so good….
Is your snow shovel deadman a DIY garden shed product or an UIAA approved version? I had the same idea a few years ago and made an aluminum spade with a hole for a removable cable and a tubular slot at the back for the axe handle. Works like a pig on both side unfortunately - it's an awkward shape for a shovel and the tubular slot makes it very difficult to be buried as a deadman. I though gear manufacturers must have had similar ideas and would be able to make something that actually works. However I haven't seen anything like this in the shops. The nearest thing is a Grivel plastic shovel with steel blade and a short handle which can be extended with an axe. Don't think it's strong enough as an anchor though!
http://www.grivel.com/Products/PRODUCT_NEWS.asp
After my failure I bought the yellow BCA snow shovel and use it with my axe (Cassin Extreme) as a handle. It involves some homemade fixing but works well - even better than the original handle. Still wouldn't work as a deadman though. I just have to bury my axes if I need a snow belay.
In reply to jamestheyip:
The shovel is made by Voile, and I am not sure it is rated as climbing equipment, but then again neither is the deadman. The shovel has slots that can be used to thread slings through, I am assuming here, as it never came with any bumf stating it could be used as a deadman, I just assumed (assuming in climbing can be very dangerous!).
Years ago the late Eric Langmuir, told me that they tested deadman in snow by the side of the Coire Cas road, by pulling then with a Landrover till they failed. A strain gauge was used to give the whole thing a scientific edge; however Eric as ever seemed more interested in the fun aspect of the experiment and I never found out the forces required to bring the system to fail. He was more interested in the deadman rocketing out of the snow and slamming into the back of the landrover door! He did say, the snow always failed at some point and they never got there homemade deadman to failed. They got the idea from seeing husk’s being tethered to the ground by tying them to frozen meat, that was buried, and he said they never pulled it out.
The shovel is made by Voile, and I am not sure it is rated as climbing equipment, but then again neither is the deadman. The shovel has slots that can be used to thread slings through, I am assuming here, as it never came with any bumf stating it could be used as a deadman, I just assumed (assuming in climbing can be very dangerous!).
Years ago the late Eric Langmuir, told me that they tested deadman in snow by the side of the Coire Cas road, by pulling then with a Landrover till they failed. A strain gauge was used to give the whole thing a scientific edge; however Eric as ever seemed more interested in the fun aspect of the experiment and I never found out the forces required to bring the system to fail. He was more interested in the deadman rocketing out of the snow and slamming into the back of the landrover door! He did say, the snow always failed at some point and they never got there homemade deadman to failed. They got the idea from seeing husk’s being tethered to the ground by tying them to frozen meat, that was buried, and he said they never pulled it out.
In reply to Jamie Simpson - Alpine Dragons:
Cheers, good story. Had a look at the Voile shovel you mentioned I remember I've read someone in the states had used it as a Deadman (the slots are perfect for slings aren't they? Can't think of better purpose for the slots shape). I got the idea when I got my my BCA shovel and asked around whether it can also be used as a Deadman (perhaps after I drill some slots). Most people thought I'm mad...
I'd imagine it will take a while to bury a big curved shovel in hard snow though, not at least it's a very dangerous non UIAA approved practice!
Cheers, good story. Had a look at the Voile shovel you mentioned I remember I've read someone in the states had used it as a Deadman (the slots are perfect for slings aren't they? Can't think of better purpose for the slots shape). I got the idea when I got my my BCA shovel and asked around whether it can also be used as a Deadman (perhaps after I drill some slots). Most people thought I'm mad...
I'd imagine it will take a while to bury a big curved shovel in hard snow though, not at least it's a very dangerous non UIAA approved practice!
In reply to jamestheyip:
Just happened to notice this today
http://www.gear-zone.co.uk/eshop/Dmm-Deadman-Anodised.html
I can't imagine getting any kind of secure fastening between the axe and the deadman, anyone tried it?
Just happened to notice this today
http://www.gear-zone.co.uk/eshop/Dmm-Deadman-Anodised.html
I can't imagine getting any kind of secure fastening between the axe and the deadman, anyone tried it?
In reply to J Brown: Get hold of a copy of Martin Moran's Scottish Winter Mountains - a superb book, tells you everything you'll ever want to know about being out in Scotland in Winter. There are some great chapters on specific gear for specific styles of routes.
I'd echo the advice that having a warthog and a bulldog makes sense. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that Needlesports are now the only place you can get hold of Warthogs, after Mountain Tech going bust.
If you are likely to climb abroad or think you'll get on some of the harder ice routes like The Curtain, Smiths Route or Indicator Wall, then top quality ice screws win 100% of the time.
Unfortunately using ice screws in Scottish the sad fact is that 'bottoming them out' against rock in thin ice is pretty common. It's a great way to trash 40 quids worth of top of the range ice-screw. Also in Scotland you rarely get bullet hard blue ice where the quality of the best screws is most needed. Finally, on grade III/IV you are likely to be placing screws where you are able to stand in balance.
Only you know what you bank balance and your aspirations are so just have a realistic think about what sort of routes you'll be doing before spending hundreds of quid.
HTH
I'd echo the advice that having a warthog and a bulldog makes sense. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that Needlesports are now the only place you can get hold of Warthogs, after Mountain Tech going bust.
If you are likely to climb abroad or think you'll get on some of the harder ice routes like The Curtain, Smiths Route or Indicator Wall, then top quality ice screws win 100% of the time.
Unfortunately using ice screws in Scottish the sad fact is that 'bottoming them out' against rock in thin ice is pretty common. It's a great way to trash 40 quids worth of top of the range ice-screw. Also in Scotland you rarely get bullet hard blue ice where the quality of the best screws is most needed. Finally, on grade III/IV you are likely to be placing screws where you are able to stand in balance.
Only you know what you bank balance and your aspirations are so just have a realistic think about what sort of routes you'll be doing before spending hundreds of quid.
HTH
In reply to OP:
I'd agree with Mark. Screws in scotland are gear of last resort so i'd not go spending loads. For general IIIs carry one just incase. It will spend more time getting blunt on bits of rock etc than being used. Same goes for warhogs & bulldogs - i don't carry them unless i'm doing a turfy route (and have gone over to bulldogs completly now anyway)
For pegs don't go getting big ones - you could fit a wire in the space of a large angle. As a basic set i'd go for one small kifeblade one small king pin and one small angle.
Gear for specific areas :
Gorms - ditch the screws and turf gear unless you have plans for one of the few icey routes (hells lum etc)
Ben - Take the lot but kifeblades can be very useful.
Coe - Ditch the screws & turf gear.
Southern Highlands - Ditch the screws but tkae more turf gear.
Udlaidh - plenty of screws.
I'd agree with Mark. Screws in scotland are gear of last resort so i'd not go spending loads. For general IIIs carry one just incase. It will spend more time getting blunt on bits of rock etc than being used. Same goes for warhogs & bulldogs - i don't carry them unless i'm doing a turfy route (and have gone over to bulldogs completly now anyway)
For pegs don't go getting big ones - you could fit a wire in the space of a large angle. As a basic set i'd go for one small kifeblade one small king pin and one small angle.
Gear for specific areas :
Gorms - ditch the screws and turf gear unless you have plans for one of the few icey routes (hells lum etc)
Ben - Take the lot but kifeblades can be very useful.
Coe - Ditch the screws & turf gear.
Southern Highlands - Ditch the screws but tkae more turf gear.
Udlaidh - plenty of screws.
In reply to Burnsie:
however, if you are heading for a buttress route on Lochnagar for example, I would suggest taking "turf gear".
> (In reply to OP)
>> > Gear for specific areas :
>
> Gorms - ditch the screws and turf gear unless you have plans for one of the few icey routes (hells lum etc)
>
> Gorms - ditch the screws and turf gear unless you have plans for one of the few icey routes (hells lum etc)
however, if you are heading for a buttress route on Lochnagar for example, I would suggest taking "turf gear".
In reply to Scomuir:
I should have added the disclaimer :
* This is all down to personal preference, carry what you think you will use based on the route description .....
I should have added the disclaimer :
* This is all down to personal preference, carry what you think you will use based on the route description .....
In reply to Burnsie:
"Coe - Ditch the screws & turf gear"
Do you mean just take a couple/three screws or ditching the lot?
Couple of screws would generally prove handy on Twisting Gully on SCNL, NW gully on nam Beith in my experience and based on the guidebook SC gully too, all of which are classics that go at III-ish . I think if these are at or about your leading grade and you do them without screws you'd crap yersel' (more than usual).
Have also found carrying a single warthog handy as a last resort in the Coe.
"Coe - Ditch the screws & turf gear"
Do you mean just take a couple/three screws or ditching the lot?
Couple of screws would generally prove handy on Twisting Gully on SCNL, NW gully on nam Beith in my experience and based on the guidebook SC gully too, all of which are classics that go at III-ish . I think if these are at or about your leading grade and you do them without screws you'd crap yersel' (more than usual).
Have also found carrying a single warthog handy as a last resort in the Coe.
In reply to niallk:
see disclaimer above - for gullys formed out of cruddy snow ice i'd rather get a solid rock runner in the walls of the gully than rely on a screw which isn't likely to hold.
Having seen various wingers onto warthogs / screws in neve i think people place too much confidence in them. In solid water ice screws should hold. Warthogs are always dodgy - i did place a solid bulldog a couple of years ago that i was 90% sure would hold - not as good as a nice hex or rock9 though !
see disclaimer above - for gullys formed out of cruddy snow ice i'd rather get a solid rock runner in the walls of the gully than rely on a screw which isn't likely to hold.
Having seen various wingers onto warthogs / screws in neve i think people place too much confidence in them. In solid water ice screws should hold. Warthogs are always dodgy - i did place a solid bulldog a couple of years ago that i was 90% sure would hold - not as good as a nice hex or rock9 though !
In reply to Burnsie:
Yes, I agree. Was just trying to highlight the fact that a Northern Corries buttress route will quite likely be different in nature to a southern Cairngorms buttress route, such as on Lochnagar.
Yes, I agree. Was just trying to highlight the fact that a Northern Corries buttress route will quite likely be different in nature to a southern Cairngorms buttress route, such as on Lochnagar.
In reply to Burnsie:
Aye, saw the disclaimer afterwards - posting mis-matches.
Good points though. I guess I've probably placed too much confidence in the odd screw but certainly look around for rock runners as first preference (most of the time...).
Would be interested to hear others' opinions or general approach to screws in those sort of situations. Obviously if you are placing them it should be in the best ice available, but do people generally completely avoid them?
Aye, saw the disclaimer afterwards - posting mis-matches.
Good points though. I guess I've probably placed too much confidence in the odd screw but certainly look around for rock runners as first preference (most of the time...).
Would be interested to hear others' opinions or general approach to screws in those sort of situations. Obviously if you are placing them it should be in the best ice available, but do people generally completely avoid them?
In reply to Burnsie:
> (In reply to niallk)
>
> see disclaimer above - for gullys formed out of cruddy snow ice i'd rather get a solid rock runner in the walls of the gully than rely on a screw which isn't likely to hold.
>
I would agree with that however having climbed goat track gully in a condition where it took an ice screw on each of 3 pitches and had an icicle thread on it as well, and having needed a screw to protect the first (only) pitch of aladins couloir, all in nice solid water ice. I would have 1 or 2 with me what ever the ground >
> see disclaimer above - for gullys formed out of cruddy snow ice i'd rather get a solid rock runner in the walls of the gully than rely on a screw which isn't likely to hold.
>
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