UKC

I popped to Manchester Climbing Centre for some indoor action. It was the first time in 2 years I've climbed indoors and I was a little suprised. First thing I noticed lots of lead routes in the 4/4+ grades and these routes seemed quite popular. I couldn't help noticing a leader on a route next to me leading any colour when the easiest grade was 4. And another leader back of the same grade 4 lead at the 3/4 hight mark. Those incidets didn't worry me but I did catch one of these budding leaders later in the evening with a different belayer blissfully unaware of any problems. Their rope went from belayer -> clip 3 -> clip 2 -> clip 1 -> climber struggling at around clip 3! Their ropework problem was pointed out and the leader down climbed the route, the pair then spent quite a while trying to work out what had gone wrong with their rope.

Anyway, I'm wondering if climbing walls should put up such easy lead routes? Yes they allow novice climbers to experience/practice leading, but at what cost? My view is it would be better to set the lowest lead grade at 5 or 5+ to encourge new climber to learn to climb before trying to lead. Or perhaps I'm just getting too old and paranoid.

In reply to jezzer17:

Them and me both. Z clipping is a problem that can be made even by experienced climbers but how do you manage it over 3 clips?

I don't think the problem lies necessarily with easy routes but the fact that people are jumping into with out being properly taught. Setting a higher minimum grade won't help as people will just use any colour hold. Plus it really has nothing to do with grade ability, being able to climb high grades on a top rope does not equate to better leading skills unless you have been taught properly.

In reply to argyle_dude:

presumably they were seconding the route but hadn't unclipped on the way up

In reply to argyle_dude: I imagine one of them backed off and then the next climbed tried but tied into the wrong end of the rope.

In reply to jezzer17:


Why not start at say 6b then everyone would be even better when they started leading, or 7a maybe, 8a anyone?

What you descibed wasn't poor climbing as such, it was poor ropework and poor belaying which are hardly reserved for folk climbing in the 5, 5+ range (have a look around 90% of walls and you'll see poor belaying/ropework is rife). What the incident you describe says more to me is that the wall could do with a few more floor walkers watching beginers!

Theres nothing wrong with "only" leading 4s esp if folk are just starting out on lead where its more important IMO to learn good ropework (both clipping and belying) than it is to be pushing your grade and if your kacking you breeks on something too hard you're not concentrating on the rope work or conversly if your resting every bolt the belayer insn't picking up any real belaying practice

Stuart

In reply to jezzer17:

You know it is possible to lead even easier climbs than that outdoors and you don't even have to sign any disclaimer forms?

Phil

In reply to jezzer17:

If I was ever found on a wall I would use whatever colour hold I wanted, same as outdoors. Once I had got used to the routes I may try using the one colour of hold, then I would improve my climbing.

If beginners want to learn to lead, they can use any sodding thing they want while learning to clip safely. A good second should spot the mistake immediately and tell the leader. Once they are comfortable with what they are doing they will move onto using the routes as laid out.

I went to Leeds wall to try and get some confidence into someone who was frightened of leading. Took them on the easy slab, got them to place runners and then stand in balance with just a fingertip on the wall to show they did not need to hang on and grip tightly to stay on.

Everyone has to start somewhere, fancy being thrown into the sea a mile offshore to learn to swim long distance?

In reply to jezzer17: I think the yanks call this z-clipping or something. We have all done it at some time or other during the early years. Give them a break. I hate these type of posts which are always along the line of "we shouldn't encourage people to climb for their own safety... blah blah blah". No harm came to these fellows. They made a classic mistake and will no doubt learn from it.

In reply to jezzer17:

I noticed (and pointed it out to them) someone Z-clipping going up an F7a the other day, so its not just F4 climbers who are guilty!

In reply to jezzer17:
I have noticed a few odd things recently with people starting to lead although i think it's more that they just needed a bit of a pointer/tuition.
One thing that i did think was quite odd was a group of people on a "how to lead climb" course that could not top rope a 4+.
I spoke to them and recommended that they save their cash on the lead course, get climbing 5+ first, then come back and they would get much better value.
I really don't understand why their tutor hadn't said the same.

In reply to gethin_allen:

That is a very modern viewpoint. Everyone I climb with started leading at VD which is way below F5+ in terms of difficulty.

In reply to GrahamD:
The reason behind my suggestion was that i personally found it quite a step up from top-rope climbing to lead climbing and most of the lead climbs in the indoor walls near me are 5 upwards.
Also, 5+ indoors isn't exactly soloing rhapsody, it just means you have a bit of a chance when you start to lead.

In reply to jezzer17:

Holy crap, take him outside and give him a good kicking, what's the World coming to?


Chris

In reply to gethin_allen:

Did you find it a step up because the easiest leads were 5+, though ? If you had never top roped but got straight onto leading a slabby 3, would you have had the same problem ?

Many people these days get too good at climbing technical ground before starting to lead. When they do eventually lead their grade aspirations are way beyond what they can actually lead. IMO much better to develop all your climbing skills (leading and technical climbing and, ideally trad) in step with each other.

In reply to jezzer17: I have been climbing for many years now, I have good ropework skills. However when it comes to leading I do not feel confident, and therefore would be really annoyed if I went climbing and found there to be no 4 and 4+ routes.

The idea of only having harder lead routes would be a bad one, because you could still get those with the lacking of knowledge trying them (beause they want to have a go at leading) and then falling off where their mistakes could be disastrous.

So in answer to your question yes climbng walls should put up such easy routes.

In reply to jezzer17: there should be MORE easy lead routes at walls (imho), not less! would make sense in helping novices learn ropework so they can get outside more quickly.

good on you for letting them know though. not sure what would have happened when they got to the top otherwise...

In reply to jezzer17:

At Bristol UCR the 4 or 4+ routes are almost exclusively on the top-roping area. The lead routes tend to kick in at 5 minimum.

Not sure what the reason is, though - probably considerations of space. The leading area is already crowded enough with climbers leading 5 and above.

FWIW I dont see how introducing minimum standards of technical difficulty would reduce problems such as back- or z-clipping.