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Obviously (well maybe not obviously) I make my own judgement on these... which is that they are better than nothing, but I'm not happy unless I've backed them up. (which is often difficult as per the fact that there is a peg there.....)
What do people on here think?
e.g this weekend I came across pegs on Scratch Arete and Meshrach....
What do people on here think?
e.g this weekend I came across pegs on Scratch Arete and Meshrach....
In reply to ClimberEd:
I made the first ascent of Cardiac Arete in December 1980. Through sheer incompetence I 'protected' it with two incredibly bad pegs - one of them, a very thin knife blade, I had to bend down flat against the rock because it stuck out so far. Some time afterwards there was an 'ethical' de-pegging at Tremadog, and my pegs came out. They were then replaced - by someone, (I've no idea who). Instead of two, there are now three, and as far as I could make out at the time they were excellent. BUT they must be more than 25 years old now.
At the same time, Vector was de-pegged (apart from the old peg in the slab) by Phil Thomas. There used to be two protecting the traverse to the cave. I replaced these with one peg. I could have made it a bomber, but in that position it would have been easy to remove again, so I placed it where it was impossible to get a hammer to it. It wasn't brilliant. I've no idea if it's the same peg there now...
I'd say if you can back them up, if you can - however the reason that the Cardiac ones are there is that there are no alternatives...
I made the first ascent of Cardiac Arete in December 1980. Through sheer incompetence I 'protected' it with two incredibly bad pegs - one of them, a very thin knife blade, I had to bend down flat against the rock because it stuck out so far. Some time afterwards there was an 'ethical' de-pegging at Tremadog, and my pegs came out. They were then replaced - by someone, (I've no idea who). Instead of two, there are now three, and as far as I could make out at the time they were excellent. BUT they must be more than 25 years old now.
At the same time, Vector was de-pegged (apart from the old peg in the slab) by Phil Thomas. There used to be two protecting the traverse to the cave. I replaced these with one peg. I could have made it a bomber, but in that position it would have been easy to remove again, so I placed it where it was impossible to get a hammer to it. It wasn't brilliant. I've no idea if it's the same peg there now...
I'd say if you can back them up, if you can - however the reason that the Cardiac ones are there is that there are no alternatives...
In reply to jon:
You might be able to pick out the originals in the shady side of the arete in this photo... http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=104890
You might be able to pick out the originals in the shady side of the arete in this photo... http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=104890
In reply to ClimberEd: It must be about 24 years since I first clipped the peg on Scratch Arete, and it looked pretty old then. It's also pretty much impossible to back up and in a critical position, as in, you fall off the crux and that peg fails, you will get hurt. Anyone know if it has ever been replaced?
In reply to davidoldfart:
We did it around 1970 and it was a few years old then.
The one on Meshach was almost the only runner when we first tried it pre nuts. There was a good runner within six feet last time I did it. Still reckon it is hard for the grade.
We did it around 1970 and it was a few years old then.
The one on Meshach was almost the only runner when we first tried it pre nuts. There was a good runner within six feet last time I did it. Still reckon it is hard for the grade.
In reply to ClimberEd:
I imagine the majority of existing pegs in the UK are doubtful to a some degree...possibly a large degree.
I imagine the majority of existing pegs in the UK are doubtful to a some degree...possibly a large degree.
In reply to jon: I fell onto the first of the final three pegs on cardiac arête in 2004 and it held then, also had a friend the same week fall onto the peg on scratch arête and that also held. back then i was under the belief that all the pegs at trem were bomber unless flaking because of rust or moving in around in there placements.
In reply to davidoldfart:
No idea - I managed to get a small wire in next to it, which I thought was pretty poor but my 2nd seemed to think was quite firm.
Sutty - glad to hear you think it's quite hard for the grade, I thought so to, very doable but no pushover!
No idea - I managed to get a small wire in next to it, which I thought was pretty poor but my 2nd seemed to think was quite firm.
Sutty - glad to hear you think it's quite hard for the grade, I thought so to, very doable but no pushover!
In reply to ClimberEd:
I remember clipping the pegs on Scratch Arete and Meshach some years ago and thinking they were ok. But really there is no way of knowing for sure how strong they are inside the crack. Allways a good idea to back it up if possible. We watched someone on Meshach today who opted not to clip the peg and climbed on to the runners above. A friend said to me at Gogarth once that it would slow me down!!
I remember clipping the pegs on Scratch Arete and Meshach some years ago and thinking they were ok. But really there is no way of knowing for sure how strong they are inside the crack. Allways a good idea to back it up if possible. We watched someone on Meshach today who opted not to clip the peg and climbed on to the runners above. A friend said to me at Gogarth once that it would slow me down!!
In reply to ClimberEd:
Following on from my ramble above (I forgot to add) that the pegs you refer to on Meshach and Scratch Arete are almost certainly not the originals due to the de-pegging and subsequent re-pegging of all the routes equipped with pegs. I can't remember the date of it, but I'll have a look in my diary. I'd guess at 25 years unless they've been replaced again since.
Following on from my ramble above (I forgot to add) that the pegs you refer to on Meshach and Scratch Arete are almost certainly not the originals due to the de-pegging and subsequent re-pegging of all the routes equipped with pegs. I can't remember the date of it, but I'll have a look in my diary. I'd guess at 25 years unless they've been replaced again since.
In reply to jon:
Er, I was wrong. I replaced the peg on Vector on 13 October 1979... so, 30 years old!
Er, I was wrong. I replaced the peg on Vector on 13 October 1979... so, 30 years old!
In reply to ClimberEd:
I'd always clip a peg as it may slow me down if I fell on to it.
I'd always try for a back up.
I thought there was a wire somewhere near the peg on Scratch Arete.
I'd always clip a peg as it may slow me down if I fell on to it.
I'd always try for a back up.
I thought there was a wire somewhere near the peg on Scratch Arete.
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet:
There is small wires to be had undre the overlap, and if placed right they are good.
> (In reply to ClimberEd)
>
> I thought there was a wire somewhere near the peg on Scratch Arete.
> I thought there was a wire somewhere near the peg on Scratch Arete.
There is small wires to be had undre the overlap, and if placed right they are good.
In reply to johnnorman:
Yes. That's what I thought but couldn't remember that well.
Haven't done it for probably 15-20 years.
Yes. That's what I thought but couldn't remember that well.
Haven't done it for probably 15-20 years.
In reply to johnnorman:
That's right - two small wires in opposition making a bomb-proof bit of protection. Incidentally, didn't the peg on the last pitch of Leg Slip get stripped a while back? That one always looked OK to me.
>
>
> There is small wires to be had undre the overlap, and if placed right they are good.
>
> There is small wires to be had undre the overlap, and if placed right they are good.
That's right - two small wires in opposition making a bomb-proof bit of protection. Incidentally, didn't the peg on the last pitch of Leg Slip get stripped a while back? That one always looked OK to me.
In reply to Pekkie:
Yeh, with a bit of fiddling those small wires are very safe. Dont remember a peg on Leg Slip so i guess it may have been stripped?? Its agreat top pitch that!
Yeh, with a bit of fiddling those small wires are very safe. Dont remember a peg on Leg Slip so i guess it may have been stripped?? Its agreat top pitch that!
In reply to johnnorman:
Is there a larger nut placement round the RH side of the arete or is my memory wrong? It may have needed a long sling to stop rope drag. We didn't have small wires but there was something below the overlap.
Is there a larger nut placement round the RH side of the arete or is my memory wrong? It may have needed a long sling to stop rope drag. We didn't have small wires but there was something below the overlap.
In reply to sutty:
Not sure about a larger nut round the side but its possible, ive done the route many times now and allways just clipped the peg and placed wires under the overlap. Will try and have a look next time, its a route you just want to do again and again.
Not sure about a larger nut round the side but its possible, ive done the route many times now and allways just clipped the peg and placed wires under the overlap. Will try and have a look next time, its a route you just want to do again and again.
In reply to jon:
Hi Jon,
I reckon the pegs on Cardiac Arete are still bombers.
Did the route clean last year but, on my third attempt, fell onto the pegs on two previous ocations.
Best route in Tremadog by the way !
Hoping to do Sexual Salami soon, but the pegs on this route definately need backing up !!!
mills
Hi Jon,
I reckon the pegs on Cardiac Arete are still bombers.
Did the route clean last year but, on my third attempt, fell onto the pegs on two previous ocations.
Best route in Tremadog by the way !
Hoping to do Sexual Salami soon, but the pegs on this route definately need backing up !!!
mills
In reply to johnnorman:
I believe the original route at this point did involve an awkward move to the right of the arete, rather than taking the overhang direct. Maybe even standing in a sling on the peg!
I agree that the overhang as now climbed comes into the wonderful category of 'very intimidating, but deceptively easy'. Very satisfying.
CJ.
I believe the original route at this point did involve an awkward move to the right of the arete, rather than taking the overhang direct. Maybe even standing in a sling on the peg!
I agree that the overhang as now climbed comes into the wonderful category of 'very intimidating, but deceptively easy'. Very satisfying.
CJ.
In reply to sutty:
IIRC with modern gear the Meshach peg is a pointless curiosity. I completey fluffed the section by the overlap/peg and found it utterly desperate so yeah, hard at the grade! Would I trust it... not sure, I guess I did a few years ago with less sense, I still would now on the basis it doesn't matter either way. If it were the only gear... maybe but I'd be tempted to pull it and sort it out.
I don't recall any others on routes I've done.
jk
jk
> The one on Meshach was almost the only runner when we first tried it pre nuts. There was a good runner within six feet last time I did it. Still reckon it is hard for the grade.
IIRC with modern gear the Meshach peg is a pointless curiosity. I completey fluffed the section by the overlap/peg and found it utterly desperate so yeah, hard at the grade! Would I trust it... not sure, I guess I did a few years ago with less sense, I still would now on the basis it doesn't matter either way. If it were the only gear... maybe but I'd be tempted to pull it and sort it out.
I don't recall any others on routes I've done.
jk
jk
In reply to ClimberEd:
Certainly on the two routes you mention you don't need to trust them - there is plenty of good gear on both these routes.
Certainly on the two routes you mention you don't need to trust them - there is plenty of good gear on both these routes.
In reply to johnnorman:
Yep. Mine was too good for my second to retrieve.
> (In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
>
> There is small wires to be had undre the overlap, and if placed right they are good.
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
>
> There is small wires to be had undre the overlap, and if placed right they are good.
Yep. Mine was too good for my second to retrieve.
In reply to ClimberEd: While on the subject of Craig Pant Ifan, how is Barbarian these days? There were reports a while back that there had been some kind of landslip causing the whole top bit of the route to move down a bit, suggesting it might be unstable, or was someone pulling my leg?
In reply to ClimberEd:
I clipped the peg on Meshach a few years ago now and remember being extremely grateful for it. Although it was my first multi pitch HVS (and last come to think of it) and so I was absolutely terrified.
I clipped the peg on Meshach a few years ago now and remember being extremely grateful for it. Although it was my first multi pitch HVS (and last come to think of it) and so I was absolutely terrified.
In reply to Eric the Red:
I don't recall there being a lot of alternatives to the peg on Meshach, but perhaps I just wasn't looking for them.
I don't recall there being a lot of alternatives to the peg on Meshach, but perhaps I just wasn't looking for them.
In reply to sutty: Meshach was my first HVS, though I had already led E1 the previous day, it has always seemed ok for HVS (or is it down to VS now?).
In reply to ClimberEd:
I'd just treat each on its own merits (is that the right term?) as I would anywhere else and only use them as a last resort.
I'd just treat each on its own merits (is that the right term?) as I would anywhere else and only use them as a last resort.
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet:
It's not as disadvantage-free (another crap phrase but I don't seem to have the gift of the gab today) as it seems to just clip something. Whenever you fall on something your knot tightens, which can make a difference on shock loading on lower gear. Your knot tightening is meant to be equal to 1.5 m of dynamic rope stretch or something like that. Whether this is more useful than being slowed down is down to each individual situation, and obviously if there's no gear clipped beneath you you might as well clip the peg! But in the situation where the gear below the peg is marginal, you may want a spongy knot to absorb force.
I think I've remembered this all right. There was a discussion on it here, in particularly the pdf in the third link http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=304200
> I'd always clip a peg as it may slow me down if I fell on to it.
It's not as disadvantage-free (another crap phrase but I don't seem to have the gift of the gab today) as it seems to just clip something. Whenever you fall on something your knot tightens, which can make a difference on shock loading on lower gear. Your knot tightening is meant to be equal to 1.5 m of dynamic rope stretch or something like that. Whether this is more useful than being slowed down is down to each individual situation, and obviously if there's no gear clipped beneath you you might as well clip the peg! But in the situation where the gear below the peg is marginal, you may want a spongy knot to absorb force.
I think I've remembered this all right. There was a discussion on it here, in particularly the pdf in the third link http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=304200
In reply to Sarah_Clough:
This is all a bit academic. You clip everything. You don't NOT clip a wire because it's not as good as you would like... Often a peg, even a crap one will keep the rope aligned and prevent nuts from pulling out.
This is all a bit academic. You clip everything. You don't NOT clip a wire because it's not as good as you would like... Often a peg, even a crap one will keep the rope aligned and prevent nuts from pulling out.
In reply to Al Evans:
Pfff Al it's definitely not VS - if I'd led it when VS was the top of my grade I would have poo'd my pants and probably retreated fast.....
Pfff Al it's definitely not VS - if I'd led it when VS was the top of my grade I would have poo'd my pants and probably retreated fast.....
In reply to ClimberEd: Just asking, HVS has seemed fine to me each time I've done it, with a definite crux.
In reply to Al Evans:
Sorry, wasn't trying to have a go.
Sorry, wasn't trying to have a go.
In reply to Martin76:
We watched someone climb Meshach the other day and he had runners in below and above the peg but opted not to clip the peg. So he was doing the commiting bit quite high above his gear. He looked comfy enough but then let out a bid sigh of relief on reaching easier ground.
> (In reply to Eric the Red)
>
> I don't recall there being a lot of alternatives to the peg on Meshach, but perhaps I just wasn't looking for them.
>
> I don't recall there being a lot of alternatives to the peg on Meshach, but perhaps I just wasn't looking for them.
We watched someone climb Meshach the other day and he had runners in below and above the peg but opted not to clip the peg. So he was doing the commiting bit quite high above his gear. He looked comfy enough but then let out a bid sigh of relief on reaching easier ground.
In reply to jon:
I didn't clip the peg on Desolation Row because I didn't want it to increase any complacency. It definitely would only just about hold the weight of a quick draw and the rope ran better without it.
> (In reply to Sarah_Clough)
>
> This is all a bit academic. You clip everything. You don't NOT clip a wire because it's not as good as you would like... Often a peg, even a crap one will keep the rope aligned and prevent nuts from pulling out.
>
> This is all a bit academic. You clip everything. You don't NOT clip a wire because it's not as good as you would like... Often a peg, even a crap one will keep the rope aligned and prevent nuts from pulling out.
I didn't clip the peg on Desolation Row because I didn't want it to increase any complacency. It definitely would only just about hold the weight of a quick draw and the rope ran better without it.
In reply to jon:
I'm not sure everyone would agree.
Yep, there are obviously plenty of reasons *for* clipping stuff, was just saying there is actually a reason for not doing so. You've got to weigh up the reasons.
It's down to the individual, but sometimes people don't have all the information they need to make the choice, which is why I posted the link.
> This is all a bit academic. You clip everything. You don't NOT clip a wire because it's not as good as you would like
I'm not sure everyone would agree.
> Often a peg, even a crap one will keep the rope aligned and prevent nuts from pulling out.
Yep, there are obviously plenty of reasons *for* clipping stuff, was just saying there is actually a reason for not doing so. You've got to weigh up the reasons.
It's down to the individual, but sometimes people don't have all the information they need to make the choice, which is why I posted the link.
In reply to Sarah_Clough:
Sorry Sarah, Not getting at you, if I came over as disgusted of Vallorcine, I apologise. I just can't think of a good reason not to.
Sorry Sarah, Not getting at you, if I came over as disgusted of Vallorcine, I apologise. I just can't think of a good reason not to.
In reply to ClimberEd: apologies for not reading all replies but this is an ongoing issue everywhere. FWIW i share your approach and always seek to back pegs up or at least assure myself that if a peg fails then whats below will catch me.
i find the whole 'we should keep pegs as they are' thing a real anachronism; i imagine that, in many cases, suspect or old pegs can be replaced without much hassle. i just dont see how the FA should benefit from 'perfect' placements while later climbers dont.
many pegs can be backed up but where this is not possible it can seriously erode any enjoyment of a route at your limit. i would choose not to do something at my limit where i was solely depending on questionable fixed gear.
i find the whole 'we should keep pegs as they are' thing a real anachronism; i imagine that, in many cases, suspect or old pegs can be replaced without much hassle. i just dont see how the FA should benefit from 'perfect' placements while later climbers dont.
many pegs can be backed up but where this is not possible it can seriously erode any enjoyment of a route at your limit. i would choose not to do something at my limit where i was solely depending on questionable fixed gear.
In reply to Sarah_Clough: youre right but in practice i reckon there are few routes, if any, where the decision to not clip a peg because the energy absorbed by a tightening knot outweighs the reduction in energy produced by a breaking peg is the 'correct' one.
In reply to jon:
No worries.
I tried to highlight one. Did you read the pdf. I agree it's quite an esoteric reason not to!
> Sorry Sarah, Not getting at you, if I came over as disgusted of Vallorcine, I apologise.
No worries.
> I just can't think of a good reason not to.
I tried to highlight one. Did you read the pdf. I agree it's quite an esoteric reason not to!
In reply to ClimberEd:
If the pegs are still in on trade routes like Meshach & Scratch Arete it should be a pretty good indication that are in reasonable nick. They've looked reasonable enough to me on the numerous times I've dones these routes....but they gotta fail at some point.
I remember leading Grasper back in 1990 and lifting out (very easily, which was a bit diconcerting on lead) one of the pegs in the main pitch - thankfully it gave a bomber wire placement.... <warning, memory may not be reliable!>
If the pegs are still in on trade routes like Meshach & Scratch Arete it should be a pretty good indication that are in reasonable nick. They've looked reasonable enough to me on the numerous times I've dones these routes....but they gotta fail at some point.
I remember leading Grasper back in 1990 and lifting out (very easily, which was a bit diconcerting on lead) one of the pegs in the main pitch - thankfully it gave a bomber wire placement.... <warning, memory may not be reliable!>
In reply to Sarah_Clough:
Well I did read something... but I think you have to be realistic, and not just consider a theoretical case that just MIGHT occur. (Here I think the 'you're going to die mentality' quote that JKarran used somewhere is very apt). I can think of many hundreds of routes where the protection, whether it's pegs or nuts, is really marginal. If you didn't clip this or that because it wasn't what you wanted, you'd either fail on the route or hurt yourself. I really can't think of any insitu gear I'd choose not to clip. (Of course Al has a point if it makes the rope run badly...)
I know I'm wheeling out old photos, but look at this one, then read the comment I've posted against it. http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=106472
The RURP in question clearly won't hold a fall, but the really good small wires all around it stand a really good chance of lifting out if you don't clip it. I know you actually said you can think of plenty of good reasons 'for' clipping, I didn't miss that, but I just don't think anyone is going to not clip for your (actually not yours) reasons.
I also think that some of the old pegs are remarkably solid. Take the old peg on the Ochre Slab of Vector. Who would think that would hold a fall? Yet it must have held hundreds because as far as I know it was JB's original(?) and thus placed in 1960! If, of course, it's no longer there then ignore this para!
Well I did read something... but I think you have to be realistic, and not just consider a theoretical case that just MIGHT occur. (Here I think the 'you're going to die mentality' quote that JKarran used somewhere is very apt). I can think of many hundreds of routes where the protection, whether it's pegs or nuts, is really marginal. If you didn't clip this or that because it wasn't what you wanted, you'd either fail on the route or hurt yourself. I really can't think of any insitu gear I'd choose not to clip. (Of course Al has a point if it makes the rope run badly...)
I know I'm wheeling out old photos, but look at this one, then read the comment I've posted against it. http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=106472
The RURP in question clearly won't hold a fall, but the really good small wires all around it stand a really good chance of lifting out if you don't clip it. I know you actually said you can think of plenty of good reasons 'for' clipping, I didn't miss that, but I just don't think anyone is going to not clip for your (actually not yours) reasons.
I also think that some of the old pegs are remarkably solid. Take the old peg on the Ochre Slab of Vector. Who would think that would hold a fall? Yet it must have held hundreds because as far as I know it was JB's original(?) and thus placed in 1960! If, of course, it's no longer there then ignore this para!
In reply to jon:
Haha, there's an even older, somewhat notorious photo around of Jim Perrin actually pulling on the Meshach peg.
Anyone got a link to it?
CJ.
> (In reply to Sarah_Clough)
>
> I know I'm wheeling out old photos, ..
>
> I know I'm wheeling out old photos, ..
Haha, there's an even older, somewhat notorious photo around of Jim Perrin actually pulling on the Meshach peg.
Anyone got a link to it?
CJ.
In reply to ClimberEd: Not Tremadog, but there used to be a bent peg on Fracticide Wall at Carreg Alltrem
In reply to ClimberEd:
Have come across the same pegs and also the one on the crux of Vector. They all looked dodgy and were also unnecessary with modern gear as there was good cam protection nearby. I hardly ever clip pegs for these reasons, though of course sometimes it's the only thing available and then it's sensible to clip them.
Have come across the same pegs and also the one on the crux of Vector. They all looked dodgy and were also unnecessary with modern gear as there was good cam protection nearby. I hardly ever clip pegs for these reasons, though of course sometimes it's the only thing available and then it's sensible to clip them.
In reply to ClimberEd: I simply clip everything within reach and also back it up. life is for living man
In reply to jon:
Yes, an extraordinary old bent thing, bent down against the slab. It held me when I 'fell' about 4ft on to it on my first attempt at the crux.
> (In reply to Sarah_Clough)
>
>
> I also think that some of the old pegs are remarkably solid. Take the old peg on the Ochre Slab of Vector. Who would think that would hold a fall? Yet it must have held hundreds because as far as I know it was JB's original(?) and thus placed in 1960! If, of course, it's no longer there then ignore this para!
>
>
> I also think that some of the old pegs are remarkably solid. Take the old peg on the Ochre Slab of Vector. Who would think that would hold a fall? Yet it must have held hundreds because as far as I know it was JB's original(?) and thus placed in 1960! If, of course, it's no longer there then ignore this para!
Yes, an extraordinary old bent thing, bent down against the slab. It held me when I 'fell' about 4ft on to it on my first attempt at the crux.
In reply to summo:
Now THAT is tough for the grade, I imagine the peg is extremely well used. (have done easier E2's)
> (In reply to ClimberEd) Not Tremadog, but there used to be a bent peg on Fracticide Wall at Carreg Alltrem
Now THAT is tough for the grade, I imagine the peg is extremely well used. (have done easier E2's)
In reply to ClimberEd: How about the giant piece of ironmongery on Poor Man's Puterey? That could hold a car hehehe
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