This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
I was at the upper cave crag today. Painted (apparently in a mixture of chalk and water, easily removed) on a slab below the crag was "Trad only, nae balls, f*** off". Most of the bolts have been chopped: The conventional hangers have, where possible, been sawn off(the first two bolts on both Marlena and Silk Purse remain) The older, largely obsolete hangers have been hammered flat. Only the few newer resin bolts have been left. The chain at the top of Silk Purse and Hamish Teddy has, as far as I could see from the ground, gone, but the Marlena chain is still there. This has happened in the last week and, I suspect, in the last day or two. The original bolting here caused a certain amount of controversy, but I cannot remember anyone seriously suggesting their removal in the last fifteen or twenty years. There is certainly not any sort of consensus for this action, and I cannot think of an occasion when such non-controversial bolts have been chopped in the UK. It certainly kind of messed up a showery day for me - I had hoped for a good workout.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Thats the british for you stuck in the past. Dont get me wrong i cut my teeth on trad but i faced opposition trying to belay bolts at the top of some cliffs as the rock was suspect, so unfortunately a minority still exists that will remove bolts etc. Why go to all that effort after so long.
Hope some good samaritan gets up there and reequipes the crag.
Thats the british for you stuck in the past. Dont get me wrong i cut my teeth on trad but i faced opposition trying to belay bolts at the top of some cliffs as the rock was suspect, so unfortunately a minority still exists that will remove bolts etc. Why go to all that effort after so long.
Hope some good samaritan gets up there and reequipes the crag.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Performance fart. Just arseholes gobbing off.
Is there a bolt fund I can donate to to get them rebolted?
Jonnie
Performance fart. Just arseholes gobbing off.
Is there a bolt fund I can donate to to get them rebolted?
Jonnie
In reply to jonnie3430:
Well, it is not unheard of is it. ....... Harpur Hill in the Peaks was stripped of its bolts, then there is the great Frankie saga at Kilnsey and others.
I've even stripped retro-bolts myself, as well as placing over 300.
Bolts in, bolts out, bolts in, bolts out.
Climbers are generally passionate people with strong opinions.
Some even feel that strongly that they will establish routes with bolts, some even retrobolt (put bolts in trad routes), some even bolt every inch of rock that they see fit to do so (grid bolting), and some take bolts out.
It's they way we are and have been.
If you do take bolts out, for goodness sake learn how to do it properly.
Mick
Well, it is not unheard of is it. ....... Harpur Hill in the Peaks was stripped of its bolts, then there is the great Frankie saga at Kilnsey and others.
I've even stripped retro-bolts myself, as well as placing over 300.
Bolts in, bolts out, bolts in, bolts out.
Climbers are generally passionate people with strong opinions.
Some even feel that strongly that they will establish routes with bolts, some even retrobolt (put bolts in trad routes), some even bolt every inch of rock that they see fit to do so (grid bolting), and some take bolts out.
It's they way we are and have been.
If you do take bolts out, for goodness sake learn how to do it properly.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: That's the first thing that crossed my mind Mick, re the proper removal of bolts.
Now, I've never removed a bolt before so am unsure of how it's done properly. But shouldn't one try to get out the whole thing, filling the hole that is left? Doesn't sawing and hammering leave a bit of a mess?
If the perpetrator's in this instance are going to chop bolts it's a damn shame if they can't do it properly.
Now, I've never removed a bolt before so am unsure of how it's done properly. But shouldn't one try to get out the whole thing, filling the hole that is left? Doesn't sawing and hammering leave a bit of a mess?
If the perpetrator's in this instance are going to chop bolts it's a damn shame if they can't do it properly.
In reply to Robert Durran:
I wonder if they'll have the balls to come forward and justify this, or whether it'll remain the anonymous act of cowards.
> "Trad only, nae balls, f*** off".
I wonder if they'll have the balls to come forward and justify this, or whether it'll remain the anonymous act of cowards.
In reply to SonyaD:
How they've removed the bolts is not the point - this is a recognised sport venue used by some of the strongest, boldest climbers in Scotland. I'm a bumbly, I'll probably never be on these routes but the fact that they are there is inspiring.
The idea that these folk (like Robert the OP for example) don't have the balls for Trad is incredible....pretty sure he has onsighted e5.
Was it not Cubby that placed the first bolts on Marlene?
I wonder who this was? They've just made themselves massivly unpopular with a lot of very good climbers.
Bruce
How they've removed the bolts is not the point - this is a recognised sport venue used by some of the strongest, boldest climbers in Scotland. I'm a bumbly, I'll probably never be on these routes but the fact that they are there is inspiring.
The idea that these folk (like Robert the OP for example) don't have the balls for Trad is incredible....pretty sure he has onsighted e5.
Was it not Cubby that placed the first bolts on Marlene?
I wonder who this was? They've just made themselves massivly unpopular with a lot of very good climbers.
Bruce
In reply to Serpico: > (In reply to Robert Durran) > [...] > > I wonder if they'll have the balls to come forward and justify this, or whether it'll remain the anonymous act of cowards. Aye, speak up bell end! One of the few bits of scottish rock actually worth bolting!
In reply to Robert Durran: Hi Bob, Extremely disappointed to hear this, lets get them rebolted quickly. I firmly believe there is a place for bolted routes in Scotland alongside all the trad we have and Dunkeld is the prime example of how bolts and trad can coexist. I'm also staggered that hangers should simply be flattened, not much in the way of principles there. I hope that the perpetrator will identify themselves and enter into reasoned debate rather than this extreme action.
Neil Morrison
Aberdeen
Neil Morrison
Aberdeen
In reply to Neil Morrison:
Lets get them rebolted quickly.
Hi Neil,I agree. Don't have the gear or expertise myself though. maybe you know who might do the job. I was making the 8a eliminate a rainy day project for the summer, so keen to get back on it soon.....
Lets get them rebolted quickly.
Hi Neil,I agree. Don't have the gear or expertise myself though. maybe you know who might do the job. I was making the 8a eliminate a rainy day project for the summer, so keen to get back on it soon.....
In reply to Hay: Well, I happen to think it's crap that they don't want to see bolted routes there (on a bit of crag that is well suited for them) but are happy to leave a mess. Neither action shows any respect (for other climbers, or for the rock)
In reply to Robert Durran:
>"Trad only, nae balls"
I wonder how the perpetraitor got on with his bolt free leads of these routes! I suspect his trad balls are only of the theoretical type.
>"Trad only, nae balls"
I wonder how the perpetraitor got on with his bolt free leads of these routes! I suspect his trad balls are only of the theoretical type.
1
In reply to Robert Durran:
I think it's a sad day when some a***hole comes along and chops bolts without the concensus of the climbing community. I understand that there was controversy when they went up but that doesn't mean that these people have any right now to destroy what has become a good venue for both sports and trad in the higher grade range.
Egotistical, self righteous idiots!!!
Disgusting.
I think it's a sad day when some a***hole comes along and chops bolts without the concensus of the climbing community. I understand that there was controversy when they went up but that doesn't mean that these people have any right now to destroy what has become a good venue for both sports and trad in the higher grade range.
Egotistical, self righteous idiots!!!
Disgusting.
In reply to Robert Durran: Ah well,they're not called choppers for nothing!
In reply to MelH:
Or on the other hand is it a sad day when someone comes along and puts bolts in without the concensus of the climbing community.
Is that also egotistical, self-righteous, idiotic and disgusting?
Mick
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> I think it's a sad day when some a***hole comes along and chops bolts without the concensus of the climbing community.
>
> I think it's a sad day when some a***hole comes along and chops bolts without the concensus of the climbing community.
Or on the other hand is it a sad day when someone comes along and puts bolts in without the concensus of the climbing community.
> Egotistical, self righteous idiots!!!
>
> Disgusting.
>
> Disgusting.
Is that also egotistical, self-righteous, idiotic and disgusting?
Mick
In reply to Robert Durran:
An absurd act. What did the perpetrator think they might achieve?
And how long does it take someone to do that amount of damage? Long enough for a car at the road-end to be recognised by someone? Maybe we should see if we can narrow down the time of offence, it would be highly desirable to know who is responsible.
An absurd act. What did the perpetrator think they might achieve?
And how long does it take someone to do that amount of damage? Long enough for a car at the road-end to be recognised by someone? Maybe we should see if we can narrow down the time of offence, it would be highly desirable to know who is responsible.
In reply to JLS:
Well said. If you chop bolts, or any fixed gear, then, morally, you've got to lead the route(s) without and not remain anonymous.
> >
> I wonder how the perpetraitor got on with his bolt free leads of these routes! I suspect his trad balls are only of the theoretical type.
> I wonder how the perpetraitor got on with his bolt free leads of these routes! I suspect his trad balls are only of the theoretical type.
Well said. If you chop bolts, or any fixed gear, then, morally, you've got to lead the route(s) without and not remain anonymous.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Mick,
I think, with respect, that you are attempting to muddy the waters here.
It seems a pretty clear issue to me; this is a sport venue that someone is attempting to ruin.
The chances of any of these lines now seeing a lead on hand-placed gear are so slight as to be irrelevant.
Bruce
Mick,
I think, with respect, that you are attempting to muddy the waters here.
It seems a pretty clear issue to me; this is a sport venue that someone is attempting to ruin.
The chances of any of these lines now seeing a lead on hand-placed gear are so slight as to be irrelevant.
Bruce
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
As discussed on previous threads, there is never a true concensus. There is always a possibility that someone will take exception to bolts and chop them, perhaps repeatedly. Sometimes this puts off the equippers, sometimes it doesnt. Self regulation.
If however a crag has been widely used and not chopped for 15 years, it seems reasonable to suggest that it has become established as a sport venue, which does make this attack something of a departure.
> on the other hand is it a sad day when someone comes along and puts bolts in without the concensus of the climbing community.
As discussed on previous threads, there is never a true concensus. There is always a possibility that someone will take exception to bolts and chop them, perhaps repeatedly. Sometimes this puts off the equippers, sometimes it doesnt. Self regulation.
If however a crag has been widely used and not chopped for 15 years, it seems reasonable to suggest that it has become established as a sport venue, which does make this attack something of a departure.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:F.Y.I. The 1st bolts for sport climbing at Dunkeld date back 23 years.The aid bolts much longer.One could argue that is a fair consensus from the community?
In reply to Hay:
Get the bolts back in at the first instant and make sure that they are resin bolts - after cleaning up the mess left by the choppers.
BUT - whether bolts in or bolts out - these are individual actions, not a consensus, until someone sadly legislates.
Long live individual freedom - governed by peer pressure of course ; o ) but not official bodies...
Get the bolts back in at the first instant and make sure that they are resin bolts - after cleaning up the mess left by the choppers.
BUT - whether bolts in or bolts out - these are individual actions, not a consensus, until someone sadly legislates.
Long live individual freedom - governed by peer pressure of course ; o ) but not official bodies...
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I am all for individual action.
If the individual(s) involved front up having led these routes, free of bolts then all power to them. I'm pretty sure, though, that these routes will have been cravenly ruined with no furtherance of any cause.
I am all for individual action.
If the individual(s) involved front up having led these routes, free of bolts then all power to them. I'm pretty sure, though, that these routes will have been cravenly ruined with no furtherance of any cause.
In reply to Robert Durran: what the???!!!!!!
Its a 'sport climbing' venue!!!!!! come on, whats the point in chopping the bolts there, the bolts have been there for years. The routes are amazing as sport routes, the best that scotland has to offer. How much traffic would that face see without the bolts? Not many! I hope its some lone nutcase with a mad agenda. To take so much time over it as well, how could someone have such a big bee in their bonnet? I dont understand. Im upset as I have been spending bit of time on those routes recently, I love that crag. If anyone wants some cash for rebolting let me know!
Its a 'sport climbing' venue!!!!!! come on, whats the point in chopping the bolts there, the bolts have been there for years. The routes are amazing as sport routes, the best that scotland has to offer. How much traffic would that face see without the bolts? Not many! I hope its some lone nutcase with a mad agenda. To take so much time over it as well, how could someone have such a big bee in their bonnet? I dont understand. Im upset as I have been spending bit of time on those routes recently, I love that crag. If anyone wants some cash for rebolting let me know!
In reply to Robert Durran: how? why? What the F*&K?!!!!!!
In reply to Hay:
Yip a totally nihilist action that will only bring pleasure to those who chopped the bolts - pleasure from the reaction they get from other climbers.
Long term, I agree, it will have zero effect. They might as well not have bothered.
Yip a totally nihilist action that will only bring pleasure to those who chopped the bolts - pleasure from the reaction they get from other climbers.
Long term, I agree, it will have zero effect. They might as well not have bothered.
In reply to Robert Durran: Surely anyone has as much right to chop bolts as to place them. I think this is what Mick was saying. Either action will provoke outrage in the other. There was a thread a couple of weeks ago about bolts being placed at Broad Stand in the Lakes. In that the case the phantom bolter chose not to make themselves known either.
Non-controversial bolts? What are they? Someone chopped them and left a message, ergo, controversy.
Non-controversial bolts? What are they? Someone chopped them and left a message, ergo, controversy.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to MelH)
>
> Or on the other hand is it a sad day when someone comes along and puts bolts in without the concensus of the climbing community.
> Or on the other hand is it a sad day when someone comes along and puts bolts in without the concensus of the climbing community.
> Is that also egotistical, self-righteous, idiotic and disgusting?
>
Yes.>
In reply to Pekkie:
Nonsense. If someone bolted an 8c at, say, the Dubh loch, I would be totally justified in chopping it ( even though I would stand no chance of climbing it even with the bolts)and I would be utterly confident that the consensus was with me.
> (In reply to JLS)
> [...]
>
> Well said. If you chop bolts, or any fixed gear, then, morally, you've got to lead the route(s) without and not remain anonymous.
> [...]
>
> Well said. If you chop bolts, or any fixed gear, then, morally, you've got to lead the route(s) without and not remain anonymous.
Nonsense. If someone bolted an 8c at, say, the Dubh loch, I would be totally justified in chopping it ( even though I would stand no chance of climbing it even with the bolts)and I would be utterly confident that the consensus was with me.
In reply to redsulike:
Ok, so clearly there is some degree of controversy - but not much! The important thing is the overwhelming consensus.
> Non-controversial bolts? What are they? Someone chopped them and left a message, ergo, controversy.
Ok, so clearly there is some degree of controversy - but not much! The important thing is the overwhelming consensus.
In reply to Robert Durran: Exactly. I've only been there once and thought it was one of those places, like Malham, where trad and sport co-exist perfectly well. There were a load of people on Hamish Teddies and its neighbours and an equal number on the trad routes. I've heard that Hamish is about the most popular (hard) sport route in Scotland, what a shame that some tw*t has messed it up. Here's a thought for those whose sympathies are kind of on the fence - what would the reaction be if the same eejit turned up in yorkshire and chopped the bolts on Raindogs or Consenting Adults? He or she would probably be buried under the cove. Chopping bolts at an out of the way place like UCC is not a statement of intent, it's an act of cowardice.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Unfortunately, I left Glasgow with my partner last night, only an hour before you posted this. Our destination route was Hamish Ted's at Upper Cave, a route which had been on the wish list for several years. Neither of us had been strong enough to attempt it. After lots of training though, we felt that now, finally, it was time to give it a shot. Perfect timing.
Got to the crag after an almost 2 hour drive and a lovely walk-in but were a little bemused at the lighting yesterday evening.....we just couldn't see some of the bolts which we'd seen two months ago on our initial scoping-out visit. Surely they were still there, just lurking in a shadow or strange colouration of the rock? Nope, not there, gone. We'd seen the daubed message on the block at the foot, now partially scrubbed off, but the penny hadn't quite dropped. Disappointment at not being able to get on what is a classic, long-standing sport route soon gave way to anger at how someone could have taken it into their own hands to chop the bots in question. We ended up walking back down and headed along to Myopics Buttress to have a shot at The Chopping Block.
I sincerely hope that the bolts are replaced soon and as others have offered above, am glad to contribute to cost. The lines there are not new euro-clips, done on a whim, they have existed there in that style for decades now (pretty sure that's correct). Some small-minded idiot, who no doubt will remain anonymous, needs to learn a few lessons.
Unfortunately, I left Glasgow with my partner last night, only an hour before you posted this. Our destination route was Hamish Ted's at Upper Cave, a route which had been on the wish list for several years. Neither of us had been strong enough to attempt it. After lots of training though, we felt that now, finally, it was time to give it a shot. Perfect timing.
Got to the crag after an almost 2 hour drive and a lovely walk-in but were a little bemused at the lighting yesterday evening.....we just couldn't see some of the bolts which we'd seen two months ago on our initial scoping-out visit. Surely they were still there, just lurking in a shadow or strange colouration of the rock? Nope, not there, gone. We'd seen the daubed message on the block at the foot, now partially scrubbed off, but the penny hadn't quite dropped. Disappointment at not being able to get on what is a classic, long-standing sport route soon gave way to anger at how someone could have taken it into their own hands to chop the bots in question. We ended up walking back down and headed along to Myopics Buttress to have a shot at The Chopping Block.
I sincerely hope that the bolts are replaced soon and as others have offered above, am glad to contribute to cost. The lines there are not new euro-clips, done on a whim, they have existed there in that style for decades now (pretty sure that's correct). Some small-minded idiot, who no doubt will remain anonymous, needs to learn a few lessons.
In reply to Fraser:
Agreed Fraser,
I'm on the same boat here, that was a redpoint project... however, this is not why I'm upset.
As a French born climber, I scorn the vast majority of bolts I've sampled in the UK (was even unimpressed on my first visit to malham...I've now accepted it as a good venue but not super venue though ).
Anyhow, Hamish was a cool route which would see little to no traffic on trad... it is not even a line as such with obvious pro.
I'm afraid any rant on here is unlikely to change the Phantom Chopper's mind. I'm also afraid that if I had witnessed such act my usually peaceful frame of mind would have been moved to some illegal extremities.
I'm well happy not to know who it was since no rock is worth ending up in trouble with our justice system.
Phantom Chopper, you are the kind of tw*ts, sir!
Agreed Fraser,
I'm on the same boat here, that was a redpoint project... however, this is not why I'm upset.
As a French born climber, I scorn the vast majority of bolts I've sampled in the UK (was even unimpressed on my first visit to malham...I've now accepted it as a good venue but not super venue though ).
Anyhow, Hamish was a cool route which would see little to no traffic on trad... it is not even a line as such with obvious pro.
I'm afraid any rant on here is unlikely to change the Phantom Chopper's mind. I'm also afraid that if I had witnessed such act my usually peaceful frame of mind would have been moved to some illegal extremities.
I'm well happy not to know who it was since no rock is worth ending up in trouble with our justice system.
Phantom Chopper, you are the kind of tw*ts, sir!
In reply to Robert Durran:
This disgusts me. These routes are beyond me but I have heard they are great. They have been sports climbs for about 20 years? so why change that?
We will never know who and I fear if it gets rebolted then those bolts too will get removed.
I am however not surprised. The general feeling on this forum alone has been getting more anti bolt by the day. I am sick of seeing threads with people asking "why would you bolt this. There is gear...blah blah blah"
Some people feel they are above everyone else and know better. In the UK there should be room for everyone. Not everyone wants to be a trad climber. We as trad climbers are no better people who dont want to be trad climbers. What we need is proper discussions about where and why we can use bolts then let people just enjoy their climbing.
This disgusts me. These routes are beyond me but I have heard they are great. They have been sports climbs for about 20 years? so why change that?
We will never know who and I fear if it gets rebolted then those bolts too will get removed.
I am however not surprised. The general feeling on this forum alone has been getting more anti bolt by the day. I am sick of seeing threads with people asking "why would you bolt this. There is gear...blah blah blah"
Some people feel they are above everyone else and know better. In the UK there should be room for everyone. Not everyone wants to be a trad climber. We as trad climbers are no better people who dont want to be trad climbers. What we need is proper discussions about where and why we can use bolts then let people just enjoy their climbing.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Good post. What we need is discussions before actions. However, you see the person that tries to bolt the big mountain crags in the UK, point them out and stand well back!!!
> (In reply to Pekkie)
> [...]
>
> Nonsense. If someone bolted an 8c at, say, the Dubh loch, I would be totally justified in chopping it ( even though I would stand no chance of climbing it even with the bolts)and I would be utterly confident that the consensus was with me.
> [...]
>
> Nonsense. If someone bolted an 8c at, say, the Dubh loch, I would be totally justified in chopping it ( even though I would stand no chance of climbing it even with the bolts)and I would be utterly confident that the consensus was with me.
Good post. What we need is discussions before actions. However, you see the person that tries to bolt the big mountain crags in the UK, point them out and stand well back!!!
In reply to pigeonjim:
Are you sure? Because I've seen plenty of posts supporting appropriate bolting.
I'm not. The two biggest threads I can remember on this topic (the Legaston & Dinas Rock debates) have thrown up much interesting discussion and some sensible pro-bolting rationale that's likely to have changed a few minds in these particular cases.
FWIW, I'm no bolt fan and have grave reservations about their placement in many situations, but fully agree that the chopping of the Dunkeld bolts is (at best!) a *seriously* misguided act.
> The general feeling on this forum alone has been getting more anti bolt by the day.
Are you sure? Because I've seen plenty of posts supporting appropriate bolting.
> I am sick of seeing threads with people asking "why would you bolt this. There is gear...blah blah blah"
I'm not. The two biggest threads I can remember on this topic (the Legaston & Dinas Rock debates) have thrown up much interesting discussion and some sensible pro-bolting rationale that's likely to have changed a few minds in these particular cases.
FWIW, I'm no bolt fan and have grave reservations about their placement in many situations, but fully agree that the chopping of the Dunkeld bolts is (at best!) a *seriously* misguided act.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Bet you its Lord Elgin wot done it, disappointed that the bat box trick didn't work...
Bet you its Lord Elgin wot done it, disappointed that the bat box trick didn't work...
In reply to pigeonjim: nail on the head! We do need to make room for everyone. Bouldering is great, trad climbing is great, sport climbing is great. There is a place and a community for every climber, and different communities can and should co-exist in harmony while still retaining their passions and beliefs and respect the passions of others. Im sure most climbers sway one way or the other but to be completly anti one type of climbing is unbelievably closed minded. People that cant accept change and progression in the sport are a lost cause, and its sad. Its the same as the inability to accept foreign immigrants! Its no different to any other extremist behaviour eg racism - generally not tolerated? yes!
In reply to mhairit: however, for the near future, at least I now have an excuse for not being able to climb my project at upper cave!
In reply to Robert Durran: May I nervousley dip a toe in the water?
what size of bolt is used? M16, M20 etc. stainless steel I presume.
Now if you preffered resin (would that be like Hilti resin?) and if so wouldnt it be easier cheaper to use stainless steel threaded bar?
I have access to threaded bar and can cut to length or expansion bolts, Hilti resin and guns, industrial battery operated drills and bits aswell as static ropes full body harness etc etc.
what size of bolt is used? M16, M20 etc. stainless steel I presume.
Now if you preffered resin (would that be like Hilti resin?) and if so wouldnt it be easier cheaper to use stainless steel threaded bar?
I have access to threaded bar and can cut to length or expansion bolts, Hilti resin and guns, industrial battery operated drills and bits aswell as static ropes full body harness etc etc.
In reply to mhairit:
I'm very much one of the anti bolt brigade, however, this bolt chopping does seem pretty pointless. It does seem fair to point out tho, that whenever it is proposed to retro bolt a trad crag (ie Farletter), those of us against are accused of being against progress and any arguments against such bolting are shouted down. In this particular case, it could be argued that the debolter is making a very strong point that any retro bolting elsewhere wont be tolerated (although it is a very extreme measure in this instance). Just playing devils advocate
Cheers
I'm very much one of the anti bolt brigade, however, this bolt chopping does seem pretty pointless. It does seem fair to point out tho, that whenever it is proposed to retro bolt a trad crag (ie Farletter), those of us against are accused of being against progress and any arguments against such bolting are shouted down. In this particular case, it could be argued that the debolter is making a very strong point that any retro bolting elsewhere wont be tolerated (although it is a very extreme measure in this instance). Just playing devils advocate
Cheers
In reply to Chris McDaid:
So are you saying far letter has been bolted?
> (In reply to mhairit)
>
> that whenever it is proposed to retro bolt a trad crag (ie Farletter), those of us against are accused of being against progress and any arguments against such bolting are shouted down
>
> that whenever it is proposed to retro bolt a trad crag (ie Farletter), those of us against are accused of being against progress and any arguments against such bolting are shouted down
So are you saying far letter has been bolted?
In reply to Fawksey:
Generally M10 or M12. Glued in threaded rod has been used in the past, but it isn't ideal when it eventually comes time to replace it (probably no more so than standard resin anchors though). If you do go down the threaded rod option there's certain precautions you have to take (cutting the end at an angle to prevent spinning, de-greasing, pre coating the thread, etc).
Generally M10 or M12. Glued in threaded rod has been used in the past, but it isn't ideal when it eventually comes time to replace it (probably no more so than standard resin anchors though). If you do go down the threaded rod option there's certain precautions you have to take (cutting the end at an angle to prevent spinning, de-greasing, pre coating the thread, etc).
In reply to Robert Durran: a was up there on tuesday climbing on the sport routes, we were the only people there. so it must have been on either wednesday, thursday or friday.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Umm, yes Mick but as I also said in my post I don't know much about the history of when they went up all I know is these routes have been bolted for years and a lot of people enjoy them.
I agree with the point both ways though, I didn't think I had to say that in post as I don't think it was the point of the thread.
> (In reply to MelH)
> [...]
>
> Or on the other hand is it a sad day when someone comes along and puts bolts in without the concensus of the climbing community.
>
>
> [...]
>
> Is that also egotistical, self-righteous, idiotic and disgusting?
>
> Mick
> [...]
>
> Or on the other hand is it a sad day when someone comes along and puts bolts in without the concensus of the climbing community.
>
>
> [...]
>
> Is that also egotistical, self-righteous, idiotic and disgusting?
>
> Mick
Umm, yes Mick but as I also said in my post I don't know much about the history of when they went up all I know is these routes have been bolted for years and a lot of people enjoy them.
I agree with the point both ways though, I didn't think I had to say that in post as I don't think it was the point of the thread.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Didn't some new bolts appear last year, or have i got that wrong? Is this a misguided OTT response to that?
Didn't some new bolts appear last year, or have i got that wrong? Is this a misguided OTT response to that?
In reply to Serpico:
It also means it is easy to remove rge hangers compared to a resin "ring" bolt
> (In reply to Fawksey)
>
> If you do go down the threaded rod option there's certain precautions you have to take (cutting the end at an angle to prevent spinning, de-greasing, pre coating the thread, etc).
>
> If you do go down the threaded rod option there's certain precautions you have to take (cutting the end at an angle to prevent spinning, de-greasing, pre coating the thread, etc).
It also means it is easy to remove rge hangers compared to a resin "ring" bolt
In reply to Robert Durran:
what amazes me here is the apparent lack of interest in this, compared with the almost 300 responses in about 2 days there were to the recent thread on the ethics of bolting a route at Legaston Quarry!!
this act of chopping the bolts at upper cave should be of far more interest to climbers who are concerned in the direction our sport is taking, regardless of whether you are for or against the chopping.
sadly, I think the statistics on the threads are just a reflection of those who are genuinely concerned (like this thread) and those who like to just sound off about how emotional and angry they get when someone mentions bolting (the Legaston thread).
what amazes me here is the apparent lack of interest in this, compared with the almost 300 responses in about 2 days there were to the recent thread on the ethics of bolting a route at Legaston Quarry!!
this act of chopping the bolts at upper cave should be of far more interest to climbers who are concerned in the direction our sport is taking, regardless of whether you are for or against the chopping.
sadly, I think the statistics on the threads are just a reflection of those who are genuinely concerned (like this thread) and those who like to just sound off about how emotional and angry they get when someone mentions bolting (the Legaston thread).
In reply to Robert Durran:
That's an outrage. Let's hope Scotland hasn't got itself its own Ken Nichols:
http://www.rockandice.com/inthemag.php?id=245&type=onlinenews This guy has done exactly what's happened at Dunkeld, systematically for (I'm guessing), more than 15 years...
If you re-bolt the crag, make sure you use glueins, and the biggest, sturdiest at that. On a recent visit to Norway we went to climb at an idyllic crag near Kristiansand called Kanalen only to find EVERY SS staple completely flattened.
That's an outrage. Let's hope Scotland hasn't got itself its own Ken Nichols:
http://www.rockandice.com/inthemag.php?id=245&type=onlinenews This guy has done exactly what's happened at Dunkeld, systematically for (I'm guessing), more than 15 years...
If you re-bolt the crag, make sure you use glueins, and the biggest, sturdiest at that. On a recent visit to Norway we went to climb at an idyllic crag near Kristiansand called Kanalen only to find EVERY SS staple completely flattened.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Have to agree Mick.
It's all very well people getting all upset about bolts being chopped (which i don't approve of!), but then they must remember that some bolts are also put UP without consensus.
It works both ways.
> (In reply to MelH)
> [...]
>
> Or on the other hand is it a sad day when someone comes along and puts bolts in without the concensus of the climbing community.
>
>
> [...]
>
> Is that also egotistical, self-righteous, idiotic and disgusting?
>
> Mick
> [...]
>
> Or on the other hand is it a sad day when someone comes along and puts bolts in without the concensus of the climbing community.
>
>
> [...]
>
> Is that also egotistical, self-righteous, idiotic and disgusting?
>
> Mick
Have to agree Mick.
It's all very well people getting all upset about bolts being chopped (which i don't approve of!), but then they must remember that some bolts are also put UP without consensus.
It works both ways.
In reply to dave o:
>"what amazes me here is the apparent lack of interest in this"
I think it may be your measure of intrest that is at fault. Also, I suspect if someone came foward and said they'd done it the thread might heat up a bit, as it is all you can do speculate the culprit is a tw*t, rebolt and move on.
>"what amazes me here is the apparent lack of interest in this"
I think it may be your measure of intrest that is at fault. Also, I suspect if someone came foward and said they'd done it the thread might heat up a bit, as it is all you can do speculate the culprit is a tw*t, rebolt and move on.
In reply to JLS:
my choice of wording was not that good perhaps.
i just thought that the number of posts on this subject was remarkably low so far considering the excitment that had been generated by some of the other recent bolting controversies.
however, as you say, until someone comes forward and explains their motive it seems there is not really that much to discuss.
> (In reply to dave o)
>
> >"what amazes me here is the apparent lack of interest in this"
>
> I think it may be your measure of intrest that is at fault. Also, I suspect if someone came foward and said they'd done it the thread might heat up a bit, as it is all you can do speculate the culprit is a tw*t, rebolt and move on.
>
> >"what amazes me here is the apparent lack of interest in this"
>
> I think it may be your measure of intrest that is at fault. Also, I suspect if someone came foward and said they'd done it the thread might heat up a bit, as it is all you can do speculate the culprit is a tw*t, rebolt and move on.
my choice of wording was not that good perhaps.
i just thought that the number of posts on this subject was remarkably low so far considering the excitment that had been generated by some of the other recent bolting controversies.
however, as you say, until someone comes forward and explains their motive it seems there is not really that much to discuss.
In reply to JLS:
MCofS view posted on Scottish Climbs
http://forums.scottishclimbs.com/index.php/topic,5623.msg39000.html#msg3900...
MCofS view posted on Scottish Climbs
http://forums.scottishclimbs.com/index.php/topic,5623.msg39000.html#msg3900...
In reply to rusty_nails: This thread has nothing to do with bolts being put up without consensus though, it's about the vandalism to the routes at Upper Cave, clearly an established bolted venue in this day.
If you want to spout on about bolting, or retrobolting, then maybe start your own thread about it, instead of having underhand digs at Mel, which is fairly obvious to me what you are doing.
If you want to spout on about bolting, or retrobolting, then maybe start your own thread about it, instead of having underhand digs at Mel, which is fairly obvious to me what you are doing.
In reply to dave o:
(Since you insist - I wasn't going to bother)
Perhaps because it's only those in favour of bolting that are posting, those against have nothing much to say? Personally I think it's encouraging to see that not everyone has been taken in by the bolties and their propaganda... that at least one real honest climber still walks the earth in Britain.
Strength to his elbow whoever he was
> what amazes me here is the apparent lack of interest in this, compared with the almost 300 responses in about 2 days there were to the recent thread on the ethics of bolting a route at Legaston Quarry!!
(Since you insist - I wasn't going to bother)
Perhaps because it's only those in favour of bolting that are posting, those against have nothing much to say? Personally I think it's encouraging to see that not everyone has been taken in by the bolties and their propaganda... that at least one real honest climber still walks the earth in Britain.
Strength to his elbow whoever he was
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Strange... I thought I'd posted a reply that said, 'FWIW, I'm no bolt fan and have grave reservations about their placement in many situations, but fully agree that the chopping of the Dunkeld bolts is (at best!) a *seriously* misguided act.'
And I don't think mine was the only one like that!
> Perhaps because it's only those in favour of bolting that are posting, those against have nothing much to say?
Strange... I thought I'd posted a reply that said, 'FWIW, I'm no bolt fan and have grave reservations about their placement in many situations, but fully agree that the chopping of the Dunkeld bolts is (at best!) a *seriously* misguided act.'
And I don't think mine was the only one like that!
In reply to petestack:
There are a few people expressing satisfaction but most, like you, don't seem to express their approval with much enthusiasm
There are a few people expressing satisfaction but most, like you, don't seem to express their approval with much enthusiasm
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Maybe that's because most, like me, are expressing disapproval. Because it's still possible to be basically anti-bolt (or have considerable reservations about bolting) and regret the vandalism of a genuine bolt venue like this.
> (In reply to petestack)
>
> There are a few people expressing satisfaction but most, like you, don't seem to express their approval with much enthusiasm
>
> There are a few people expressing satisfaction but most, like you, don't seem to express their approval with much enthusiasm
Maybe that's because most, like me, are expressing disapproval. Because it's still possible to be basically anti-bolt (or have considerable reservations about bolting) and regret the vandalism of a genuine bolt venue like this.
In reply to SonyaD:
Playing Devil's advocate sonya.
I too agree that a site like upper cave crag where bolts have been 'accepted' by a majority of climbers is a special case, and the bolts really should not have been damaged. However, what Mick and I were getting at is the apparent disgust at bolts being removed against consent, in comparison to the sometimes less vociferous revulsion when a bolt sneaks in here or there.
> (In reply to rusty_nails) This thread has nothing to do with bolts being put up without consensus though, it's about the vandalism to the routes at Upper Cave, clearly an established bolted venue in this day.
>
> If you want to spout on about bolting, or retrobolting, then maybe start your own thread about it, instead of having underhand digs at Mel, which is fairly obvious to me what you are doing.
>
> If you want to spout on about bolting, or retrobolting, then maybe start your own thread about it, instead of having underhand digs at Mel, which is fairly obvious to me what you are doing.
Playing Devil's advocate sonya.
I too agree that a site like upper cave crag where bolts have been 'accepted' by a majority of climbers is a special case, and the bolts really should not have been damaged. However, what Mick and I were getting at is the apparent disgust at bolts being removed against consent, in comparison to the sometimes less vociferous revulsion when a bolt sneaks in here or there.
In reply to Bruce Hooker: Why don't you take similar action at French crags?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
>"Strength to his elbow"
Yeah, I guess given the fleeting nature of life, it's tantamount to a crime not to stand up for what you believe in, whether that be to address the very important issue of sport style routes at Dunkeld, infecting your dearly held Scottish trad ethic, or human rights issues in distant country of which most of us know very little. What next suicide bombers in Dunkeld tea rooms where sport climbers have been seen to congregate?
>"Strength to his elbow"
Yeah, I guess given the fleeting nature of life, it's tantamount to a crime not to stand up for what you believe in, whether that be to address the very important issue of sport style routes at Dunkeld, infecting your dearly held Scottish trad ethic, or human rights issues in distant country of which most of us know very little. What next suicide bombers in Dunkeld tea rooms where sport climbers have been seen to congregate?
In reply to Papillon:
Waste of time here, it's totally f*cked already.... every single low altitude crag is grid bolted, and the mountains are following.
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker) Why don't you take similar action at French crags?
Waste of time here, it's totally f*cked already.... every single low altitude crag is grid bolted, and the mountains are following.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Interesting argument here Bruce...I have to agree to an extent.
I do not cherish sport but enjoy a well bolted piece of rock that would otherwise be a chop route or solo only. I too disagree with the use of bolts where one can find natural pro, even if scarily spaced.
If you ever come to my local crag at home I would love to see you climb without the said bolts I have tried and managed to bag about 5/6 lines out of the 250 available. I have my limits as to what I can climb, admittedly, but I do not think of myself as a fainthearted climber (pretentious git that I am).
Bolts have been invented for unprotectable rock... yes you may decide to go and solo Hamish if you want, but surely if you chose to do so, whether or not bolts are present would have little to do with your determined mind if you set forth onto doing it?
If someone came with anything resembling bolts or pegs on the Etive slabs, they would deserve to be found feeding the fish in the loch... but surely if the wall is blank? Ever seen anybody climb the central wall of Malham on trad? Can we not think and be reasonable?
Someone earlier said there was a place for all types of climbing. Many climbers I now are real keen on trad but will enjoy their sport... And it's not contradictory (not just addressed to bruce only anymore).
Interesting argument here Bruce...I have to agree to an extent.
I do not cherish sport but enjoy a well bolted piece of rock that would otherwise be a chop route or solo only. I too disagree with the use of bolts where one can find natural pro, even if scarily spaced.
If you ever come to my local crag at home I would love to see you climb without the said bolts I have tried and managed to bag about 5/6 lines out of the 250 available. I have my limits as to what I can climb, admittedly, but I do not think of myself as a fainthearted climber (pretentious git that I am).
Bolts have been invented for unprotectable rock... yes you may decide to go and solo Hamish if you want, but surely if you chose to do so, whether or not bolts are present would have little to do with your determined mind if you set forth onto doing it?
If someone came with anything resembling bolts or pegs on the Etive slabs, they would deserve to be found feeding the fish in the loch... but surely if the wall is blank? Ever seen anybody climb the central wall of Malham on trad? Can we not think and be reasonable?
Someone earlier said there was a place for all types of climbing. Many climbers I now are real keen on trad but will enjoy their sport... And it's not contradictory (not just addressed to bruce only anymore).
In reply to French Erick:
But as you're French you know what's happened there... in a couple of decades everything is bolted, even alongside perfect cracks - even the Aiguille Dibona is bolted! Once started there seems to be no stopping it. Obviously it's more convenient and safer, but is that all there is to life?
As for bits of rock that can't be done without bolts, then for me the answer is simple - leave them unclimbed, someone may come along who can one day, if not, let them be. It's as simple as that. To quote one or two fairly decent climbers, don't murder the impossible and leave a bit for the next man (or woman).
But as you're French you know what's happened there... in a couple of decades everything is bolted, even alongside perfect cracks - even the Aiguille Dibona is bolted! Once started there seems to be no stopping it. Obviously it's more convenient and safer, but is that all there is to life?
As for bits of rock that can't be done without bolts, then for me the answer is simple - leave them unclimbed, someone may come along who can one day, if not, let them be. It's as simple as that. To quote one or two fairly decent climbers, don't murder the impossible and leave a bit for the next man (or woman).
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
it must be a pity Bruce that cutting edge climbing is on bolt protected routes by the likes of Adam Ondra, Chris Sharma et al and not poorly protected (UK) chop routes with high E numbers, which while a valid pursuit are just one area of climbing and not necessarily what most climbers want to climb. If it was a choice between 2 routes of say 8a (and trad eqivalent with high "E").
I would certainly not be unique in wanting to jump onto the sport one over the other. If we were not bolting routes we would still be holding back climb - you would not be seeing such an expansion of hard routes or so many people achieving goals of more difficult climbing rather than more dangerous climbing.
<ducks for cover>
> (In reply to French Erick)
>
>
> As for bits of rock that can't be done without bolts, then for me the answer is simple - leave them unclimbed, someone may come along who can one day, if not, let them be. It's as simple as that. To quote one or two fairly decent climbers, don't murder the impossible and leave a bit for the next man (or woman).
it must be a pity Bruce that cutting edge climbing is on bolt protected routes by the likes of Adam Ondra, Chris Sharma et al and not poorly protected (UK) chop routes with high E numbers, which while a valid pursuit are just one area of climbing and not necessarily what most climbers want to climb. If it was a choice between 2 routes of say 8a (and trad eqivalent with high "E").
I would certainly not be unique in wanting to jump onto the sport one over the other. If we were not bolting routes we would still be holding back climb - you would not be seeing such an expansion of hard routes or so many people achieving goals of more difficult climbing rather than more dangerous climbing.
<ducks for cover>
In reply to rusty_nails:
Aye great point and why people need to talk before acting. Unlike this eegit who wont come forward.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
>
> Have to agree Mick.
>
> It's all very well people getting all upset about bolts being chopped (which i don't approve of!), but then they must remember that some bolts are also put UP without consensus.
>
> It works both ways.
> [...]
>
>
> Have to agree Mick.
>
> It's all very well people getting all upset about bolts being chopped (which i don't approve of!), but then they must remember that some bolts are also put UP without consensus.
>
> It works both ways.
Aye great point and why people need to talk before acting. Unlike this eegit who wont come forward.
In reply to nz Cragrat:
If they are just interested in technical level they can always boulder or top rope.... but this wouldn't have the same impact. Why be so fixated on the quantitative, what about the qualitative? Is a "great" route just the technically hardest, the one that requires the greatest strength and fitness? As for what's "cutting edge", isn't that very much a subjective judgement too?
Do you really think this is a black and white issue, you are right and others are wrong? If so this same debate (in essence) wouldn't have been going on for nearly a century.
If they are just interested in technical level they can always boulder or top rope.... but this wouldn't have the same impact. Why be so fixated on the quantitative, what about the qualitative? Is a "great" route just the technically hardest, the one that requires the greatest strength and fitness? As for what's "cutting edge", isn't that very much a subjective judgement too?
Do you really think this is a black and white issue, you are right and others are wrong? If so this same debate (in essence) wouldn't have been going on for nearly a century.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
No of course not. It's never black and white but then you have to be open to change. I have put up a fair few climbs - some in old British style - rehearsed with pre placed gear or at least knowledge of the placements, they were good climbs but no one climbed them. When I retro-bolted them they got the traffic they deserved. Years ago I would have and have chopped routes for petty reasons like bolts being where gear could be placed even if marginal. I think that now I have a more balanced view.
Don't think that I don't appreciate all the varied aspects that make up climbing as I have been involved n many aspects over the last 30 years too.
Maybe I have become old and soft but certainly my attitudes and ethics have changed, you will argue for the worse and I think that my actions have provided more people with more and enjoyable climbing experiences.
No of course not. It's never black and white but then you have to be open to change. I have put up a fair few climbs - some in old British style - rehearsed with pre placed gear or at least knowledge of the placements, they were good climbs but no one climbed them. When I retro-bolted them they got the traffic they deserved. Years ago I would have and have chopped routes for petty reasons like bolts being where gear could be placed even if marginal. I think that now I have a more balanced view.
Don't think that I don't appreciate all the varied aspects that make up climbing as I have been involved n many aspects over the last 30 years too.
Maybe I have become old and soft but certainly my attitudes and ethics have changed, you will argue for the worse and I think that my actions have provided more people with more and enjoyable climbing experiences.
In reply to dave o:
Maybe - just maybe there's more people than you'd like to think are looking at this issue long term and are looking at this as a good thing?
Enty
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> what amazes me here is the apparent lack of interest in this,
>
>
>
> what amazes me here is the apparent lack of interest in this,
>
>
Maybe - just maybe there's more people than you'd like to think are looking at this issue long term and are looking at this as a good thing?
Enty
In reply to Enty: I'll come off the fence and say I think it is a good thing and that I have a general disagreement with sport climbing. It's what I think. And no, I didn't chop them myself.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Bruce,
I think that you're missing something here if you are refering to the routes in question. I have not been on them (never will probably) but I have many friends who do (did) climb at UCC. The consensus was that they were of high quality with great moves....not just an exercise in gymnastics like some clip-ups.
Bolting a natural line would be heinous and unacceptable, creating quality routes of great interest out of a (mostly) unprotectable wall that would be otherwise unclimbed is not.
Bruce
Bruce,
I think that you're missing something here if you are refering to the routes in question. I have not been on them (never will probably) but I have many friends who do (did) climb at UCC. The consensus was that they were of high quality with great moves....not just an exercise in gymnastics like some clip-ups.
Bolting a natural line would be heinous and unacceptable, creating quality routes of great interest out of a (mostly) unprotectable wall that would be otherwise unclimbed is not.
Bruce
In reply to Enty:
aye maybe, but would have thought the usually so vocal anti bolt contingent on here would have been straight on here with their thoughts.
by the way....i seem to be giving the impression that i am totally pro bolts. i am not, far from it and very seldom climb them, but think they do have a place, in the right place, and upper cave crag is one of the few in scotland.
therefore i hope it gets rebolted soon, and will happily chip in if anyone here is up for the job and looking for funds.
aye maybe, but would have thought the usually so vocal anti bolt contingent on here would have been straight on here with their thoughts.
by the way....i seem to be giving the impression that i am totally pro bolts. i am not, far from it and very seldom climb them, but think they do have a place, in the right place, and upper cave crag is one of the few in scotland.
therefore i hope it gets rebolted soon, and will happily chip in if anyone here is up for the job and looking for funds.
In reply to pigeonjim:
Exactly the point is was making.
It works for placing AND chopping bolts.
> (In reply to rusty_nails)
> [...]
>
> Aye great point and why people need to talk before acting. Unlike this eegit who wont come forward.
> [...]
>
> Aye great point and why people need to talk before acting. Unlike this eegit who wont come forward.
Exactly the point is was making.
It works for placing AND chopping bolts.
In reply to Bruce Hooker: I am guessing you have never top roped an overhanging route otherwise you would know the problems associated with it.
In reply to boooom: No, only lots of old pegs. They are not spreading onto the trad routes there.
In reply to Dangerous Dave: look closer, i have seen many
In reply to boooom:
Yes, because nobody who sport climbs has any 'bawwsss'...
That'll be why you can typically find more people who have led E7 on the Catwalk at Malham at weekend than at your average 'Trad' crag.
> (In reply to Robert Durran) keep them outtt has nobody noticed the bolt stubs on some of the trad routes at upper cave they are spreading keep them chopped and get some bawwsss
Yes, because nobody who sport climbs has any 'bawwsss'...
That'll be why you can typically find more people who have led E7 on the Catwalk at Malham at weekend than at your average 'Trad' crag.
In reply to dave o:
Perhaps the fact that "they" have not indicates that they would struggle to support the de-bolting. Perhaps they actually disaprove of this action. Perhaps they are actually not as simplistically "anti-bolt" as you think?
> would have thought the usually so vocal anti bolt contingent on here would have been straight on here with their thoughts.
Perhaps the fact that "they" have not indicates that they would struggle to support the de-bolting. Perhaps they actually disaprove of this action. Perhaps they are actually not as simplistically "anti-bolt" as you think?
In reply to boooom: Well nobody else has. Think your speaking pish. Why are you not a registerd user?
In reply to Serpico: yes they can probably also climb 8a and most of those people at malham probably headpoint e7 thats not "climbing" it anybody can climb a hard route if they work it to death
In reply to boooomm:
I'll rephrase that then: E7 onsighters.
I'll rephrase that then: E7 onsighters.
In reply to boooomm:
Really. Well I had better get out there and work on Partheon a bit more. Thanks for the heads up.
> anybody can climb a hard route if they work it to death
Really. Well I had better get out there and work on Partheon a bit more. Thanks for the heads up.
In reply to boooomm:
So did you take it upon yourself to chop them?
> (In reply to Serpico) anyway that wasnt my point its a trad crag and there is no place for bolts there whenever i have been there the majority of people are on the bolts its not right
So did you take it upon yourself to chop them?
In reply to boooomm: You should be glad about that you moron. Keeps the trad lines free for you. It was the one of the best sport crags in scotland and hammering the bolts flat just makes a mess.
You are either a troll or the tw*t who did it.
Either way your a knob
You are either a troll or the tw*t who did it.
Either way your a knob
So a small group of superb Scottish sport routes revert to being a probably-never-re-climbed/virtually unclimbable dribble of steep moss. Sounds a logical step forward.
Carl
Carl
In reply to boooommm: Why?
That area of the crag is for sport climbing they are not trad routes. They were never climbed on trad in the first place.
I too am also a trad climber at heart but I also enjoy sport climbing. Especially at quality venues such as ucc. Why cant trad and sport co-exist on the same crag? Why do you care that the place is busy with people on the sports wall? Saves you queing.
I agree that bolts have there place in Scotland, ucc being one of them but only on the section they are on now.
That area of the crag is for sport climbing they are not trad routes. They were never climbed on trad in the first place.
I too am also a trad climber at heart but I also enjoy sport climbing. Especially at quality venues such as ucc. Why cant trad and sport co-exist on the same crag? Why do you care that the place is busy with people on the sports wall? Saves you queing.
I agree that bolts have there place in Scotland, ucc being one of them but only on the section they are on now.
In reply to boooommm:
While they're out will you be doing the routes trad? Or is it simply that you can't climb them so you don't see why anyone else should be allowed to?
While they're out will you be doing the routes trad? Or is it simply that you can't climb them so you don't see why anyone else should be allowed to?
In reply to boooommm:
They'll be back in before a months up, guaranteed, and they'll be better. It's been needing tidied up for a wee while. Thanks for getting it moving
> (In reply to Dangerous Dave) well i guess im a troll then and im just exprssing my opinion i may just be some old traddy but i think this needs to be discussed more before they are replaced with new bolts. I agree with bolts in shitty little crags and quarries thats where they belong but upper cave is a trad venue
They'll be back in before a months up, guaranteed, and they'll be better. It's been needing tidied up for a wee while. Thanks for getting it moving
In reply to boooommm:
Well they were there for 20 years and didnt 'spread', from what i can gather.
p.s. mind using some punctuation? its quite hard to read your posts without it.
> (In reply to Serpico)allowing bolts at upper cave will just cause them to spread
Well they were there for 20 years and didnt 'spread', from what i can gather.
p.s. mind using some punctuation? its quite hard to read your posts without it.
In reply to boooommm:
People are good enough and brave enough now, mostly because of sport climbing, and they prefer to do their trad elsewhere.
People are good enough and brave enough now, mostly because of sport climbing, and they prefer to do their trad elsewhere.
In reply to rusty_nails: I too agree that a site like upper cave crag where bolts have been 'accepted' by a majority of climbers is a special case, and the bolts really should not have been damaged. However, what Mick and I were getting at is the apparent disgust at bolts being removed against consent, in comparison to the sometimes less vociferous revulsion when a bolt sneaks in here or there.
Fair enough.
But, I think there is much more 'vociferous revulsion' when innapropriate bits of rock are bolted (Broad Stand aye)
Also, think about how long the threads about those bolts at Leggy were getting.
Like Dave o above said, the vandalism of Upper Cave has shown less interest than the bolting of one single route at Leggy.
And to boooooom/troll person. I've only been to Upper Cave once (to do a couple of the trad routes) and whilst there, there was another team on trad routes. And every time I've been to Polney, there's been loads of folk out.
Fair enough.
But, I think there is much more 'vociferous revulsion' when innapropriate bits of rock are bolted (Broad Stand aye)
Also, think about how long the threads about those bolts at Leggy were getting.
Like Dave o above said, the vandalism of Upper Cave has shown less interest than the bolting of one single route at Leggy.
And to boooooom/troll person. I've only been to Upper Cave once (to do a couple of the trad routes) and whilst there, there was another team on trad routes. And every time I've been to Polney, there's been loads of folk out.
In reply to SonyaD:
Aye most people seem to be missing this in all the UKC bolt threads I have seen in the past few months. Blots in or Bolts out; Action should only be taken after discussions with the local climbers.
> (In reply to rusty_nails) I too agree that a site like upper cave crag where bolts have been 'accepted' by a majority of climbers is a special case, and the bolts really should not have been damaged. However, what Mick and I were getting at is the apparent disgust at bolts being removed against consent, in comparison to the sometimes less vociferous revulsion when a bolt sneaks in here or there.
Aye most people seem to be missing this in all the UKC bolt threads I have seen in the past few months. Blots in or Bolts out; Action should only be taken after discussions with the local climbers.
In reply to SonyaD:
Same here Sonj, did Coffin Corner when there were other folks traddin to the right & the sporties to the left. Saw someone on Marlene & it was a pure joy to watch. There's a brilliant pic of Ken Johnson on High Performance in Highland Outcrops. Thing is though you wont see anyone on any routes if you have to sneak up at night to chop the bolts cause you dont have the balls to do it by day! I dont believe there are any bolted routes anywhere that we dont know who bolted them are there?
We were even down on Choppin Block & had some foreign climbers stop by to watch
Same here Sonj, did Coffin Corner when there were other folks traddin to the right & the sporties to the left. Saw someone on Marlene & it was a pure joy to watch. There's a brilliant pic of Ken Johnson on High Performance in Highland Outcrops. Thing is though you wont see anyone on any routes if you have to sneak up at night to chop the bolts cause you dont have the balls to do it by day! I dont believe there are any bolted routes anywhere that we dont know who bolted them are there?
We were even down on Choppin Block & had some foreign climbers stop by to watch
In reply to SonyaD:
Can you tell I was schooled in paisley?!!!
> (In reply to pigeonjim)
>
> Blots in?
>
> Good typo :oD
>
> Blots in?
>
> Good typo :oD
Can you tell I was schooled in paisley?!!!
In reply to Bill Davidson: Yhm!
In reply to SonyaD:
Wont get it till the morning Sonj, goes to the office
> (In reply to Bill Davidson) Yhm
Wont get it till the morning Sonj, goes to the office
In reply to Bill Davidson: Ah no probs. Was just to ask you to pass on my email details to one of the Quickdraw lot. RB was wanting to keep in touch with her, but I lost the bit of paper with her email details.
In reply to Robert Durran:
I was really p*ssed off to read about these bolts being chopped, having tried the routes last year.
Neil Shepperd made an excellent observation on scottishclimbs.com:
"to be honest the sort of knob that does this will probably not be able to keep his (or her) mouth shut for long. They are unlikely to own up on the internet but might confide in a close friend. Some folks may already have a inkling, someone they know been letting off steam recently perhaps or dropping hints that they are going to make a name for themselves (though they maybe well known already!)"
I will buy a pint to person who shops the phantom chopper
I was really p*ssed off to read about these bolts being chopped, having tried the routes last year.
Neil Shepperd made an excellent observation on scottishclimbs.com:
"to be honest the sort of knob that does this will probably not be able to keep his (or her) mouth shut for long. They are unlikely to own up on the internet but might confide in a close friend. Some folks may already have a inkling, someone they know been letting off steam recently perhaps or dropping hints that they are going to make a name for themselves (though they maybe well known already!)"
I will buy a pint to person who shops the phantom chopper
In reply to SonyaD:
Thanks Sonya - it's funny but I thought exactly the same thing when I saw his post, especially as he had completely ignored my response to Mick where I agreed with him!
> (In reply to rusty_nails) This thread has nothing to do with bolts being put up without consensus though, it's about the vandalism to the routes at Upper Cave, clearly an established bolted venue in this day.
>
> If you want to spout on about bolting, or retrobolting, then maybe start your own thread about it, instead of having underhand digs at Mel, which is fairly obvious to me what you are doing.
>
> If you want to spout on about bolting, or retrobolting, then maybe start your own thread about it, instead of having underhand digs at Mel, which is fairly obvious to me what you are doing.
Thanks Sonya - it's funny but I thought exactly the same thing when I saw his post, especially as he had completely ignored my response to Mick where I agreed with him!
In reply to SonyaD:
Spot on. I'm happy to chip in some cash to whoever rebolts the climbs.
> (In reply to Hay) Well, I happen to think it's crap that they don't want to see bolted routes there (on a bit of crag that is well suited for them) but are happy to leave a mess. Neither action shows any respect (for other climbers, or for the rock)
Spot on. I'm happy to chip in some cash to whoever rebolts the climbs.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Surely the best way to establish a consensus here is a good old-fashioned fist fight? Phantom bolt-chopper and supporters versus those in favour of the bolts on Marlina, Hamish Teddies and Silk Purse. No weapons. Last man standing gets to decide on prevailing ethics.
Shall we say 2am on Sunday 28th June in the car park of Perth ASDA?
Of course, if the phantom bolt chopper and his mates fail to turn up we will have to assume that they have 'nae balls'...
Ben
Surely the best way to establish a consensus here is a good old-fashioned fist fight? Phantom bolt-chopper and supporters versus those in favour of the bolts on Marlina, Hamish Teddies and Silk Purse. No weapons. Last man standing gets to decide on prevailing ethics.
Shall we say 2am on Sunday 28th June in the car park of Perth ASDA?
Of course, if the phantom bolt chopper and his mates fail to turn up we will have to assume that they have 'nae balls'...
Ben
In reply to Ben Darvill:
>"Shall we say 2am on Sunday 28th June in the car park of Perth ASDA?"
Good idea, I've posted about this on a Combat 18 forum explaining how you want to spread Johnny Foreigner style Euro climbing across the UK.
See you Sunday.
>"Shall we say 2am on Sunday 28th June in the car park of Perth ASDA?"
Good idea, I've posted about this on a Combat 18 forum explaining how you want to spread Johnny Foreigner style Euro climbing across the UK.
See you Sunday.
In reply to Ben Darvill:
Nah, that's no good. Perth ASDA shuts at 10pm Sat and doesn't open till 8am Sun, where are the spectators going to buy their popcorn?
Nah, that's no good. Perth ASDA shuts at 10pm Sat and doesn't open till 8am Sun, where are the spectators going to buy their popcorn?
In reply to JLS:
From Wikipedia:
See also
* British National Party
* Johnny Adair
* Militia
* Neo-Nazism
* UKClimbing.com
* Skrewdriver
* White power skinhead
* Vlaams Blok
* Bloed, Bodem, Eer en Trouw
* Order of Flemish militants
* Blood and Honour
* Chelsea Headhunters
From Wikipedia:
See also
* British National Party
* Johnny Adair
* Militia
* Neo-Nazism
* UKClimbing.com
* Skrewdriver
* White power skinhead
* Vlaams Blok
* Bloed, Bodem, Eer en Trouw
* Order of Flemish militants
* Blood and Honour
* Chelsea Headhunters
In reply to Ben Darvill:
>"* UKClimbing.com"
Stop it! I just heard a loud bang coming from the Cumbria area, I think it was Mick's patience snapping. We best leave it there.
>"* UKClimbing.com"
Stop it! I just heard a loud bang coming from the Cumbria area, I think it was Mick's patience snapping. We best leave it there.
In reply to JLS: No,he loves it.Always has.That'll be the the first time anyone heard a loud bang from his direction!
In reply to Robert Durran:
This is a very sad turn of events.. I hope the routes are rebolted asap, as this is the overwhelming concensus about climbing on this wall.
If the chopper would care to let us all know who he/she is, and lead the all the routes he/she has chopped in a 'better' style, I would happily watch the ascent and buy them a pint after.
This is a very sad turn of events.. I hope the routes are rebolted asap, as this is the overwhelming concensus about climbing on this wall.
If the chopper would care to let us all know who he/she is, and lead the all the routes he/she has chopped in a 'better' style, I would happily watch the ascent and buy them a pint after.
In reply to ab tat:
There has been some talk on Scottish Climbs about getting them rebolted in the next few weeks. Lets just hope the same thing doesn't happen again!!!
There has been some talk on Scottish Climbs about getting them rebolted in the next few weeks. Lets just hope the same thing doesn't happen again!!!
In reply to mhairit:
Did you get Silk Purse done before all this madness? Must be so frustrating to put all that work in otherwise. Ryan and I have an SDS drill if anyone wants to team up for rebolting!
Did you get Silk Purse done before all this madness? Must be so frustrating to put all that work in otherwise. Ryan and I have an SDS drill if anyone wants to team up for rebolting!
In reply to Robert Durran: Went up there yesterday without realising this had happened.We managed to get some climbing done, Marlena is safe as long as you take a slim Karabiner for the mutilated/flattened 3rd bolt and don't mind a slightly run out finish, the route to the left is also ok to top rope. Hamish ted's seems to be lacking some bolts near the top. I think these routes can either be re-bolted properly and keep their popularity or climbed as trad E8-E9 chop routes and destined to become green and forgotten about. What would Malham be like after 5 years if all the bolts were removed?
In reply to robert mirfin:
Re-equipped!
Andy F
> What would Malham be like after 5 years if all the bolts were removed?
Re-equipped!
Andy F
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Im sorry but that is utter b*ll*cks, the putting in of bolts does not render the route un-climbable on trad gear, it is then down to your ethics as to whether you use the bolts or not. The chopping of bolts particularly on established sport crags removes the opportunity for people to climb the route in this style, its a totally different league.
I hope this crag can get re-bolted and will not be the victim of chopping again, though sadly I feel that by the sounds of many on this forum that the 'trad fascist' is quite a common and sport climbing is seen as a threat to trad climbing, people with this viewpoint will most likely continue chopping bolts.
> (In reply to MelH)
> [...]
>
> Or on the other hand is it a sad day when someone comes along and puts bolts in without the concensus of the climbing community.
>
>
> [...]
>
> Is that also egotistical, self-righteous, idiotic and disgusting?
>
> Mick
> [...]
>
> Or on the other hand is it a sad day when someone comes along and puts bolts in without the concensus of the climbing community.
>
>
> [...]
>
> Is that also egotistical, self-righteous, idiotic and disgusting?
>
> Mick
Im sorry but that is utter b*ll*cks, the putting in of bolts does not render the route un-climbable on trad gear, it is then down to your ethics as to whether you use the bolts or not. The chopping of bolts particularly on established sport crags removes the opportunity for people to climb the route in this style, its a totally different league.
I hope this crag can get re-bolted and will not be the victim of chopping again, though sadly I feel that by the sounds of many on this forum that the 'trad fascist' is quite a common and sport climbing is seen as a threat to trad climbing, people with this viewpoint will most likely continue chopping bolts.
In reply to clgladiator:
Somehow I knew before looking at your profile that you'd never been trad climbing
> the putting in of bolts does not render the route un-climbable on trad gear, it is then down to your ethics as to whether you use the bolts or not
Somehow I knew before looking at your profile that you'd never been trad climbing
In reply to Toreador:
Yes admit ably I dont trad climb, it just doesn't interest me so much, however I do know that putting in a bolt doesn't remove that crack where you could put a nut.
Yes admit ably I dont trad climb, it just doesn't interest me so much, however I do know that putting in a bolt doesn't remove that crack where you could put a nut.
In reply to clgladiator:
It's not that simple! The presence of bolts changes the head game even if you're not actively using them because the option to clip is always there. Which reduces the challenge in much the same way as dangling a rope down the side of a solo...
The chopping of bolts on established sport crags is wrong, but try extending your argument (bolts are OK anywhere because you can ethically ignore them?) to the whole country for something that's truly in a different league!
> Im sorry but that is utter b*ll*cks, the putting in of bolts does not render the route un-climbable on trad gear, it is then down to your ethics as to whether you use the bolts or not.
It's not that simple! The presence of bolts changes the head game even if you're not actively using them because the option to clip is always there. Which reduces the challenge in much the same way as dangling a rope down the side of a solo...
> The chopping of bolts particularly on established sport crags removes the opportunity for people to climb the route in this style, its a totally different league.
The chopping of bolts on established sport crags is wrong, but try extending your argument (bolts are OK anywhere because you can ethically ignore them?) to the whole country for something that's truly in a different league!
In reply to petestack:
1. If rhapsody or another equally hard trad line was (hypothetically) climbed through a line that had previously been bolted but the bolts where not used, does this actually make it any easier?
If you have established with yourself (and others, if this is important to you!) that you are not going to use the bolts, and ignore the bolts on your ascent, yes the bolts are still present but the head game is still there if you have the will power not cheat yourself and clip a bolt if you get scared.
The way I see, those that are mentally not able to to climb this hypothetical route without clipping a bolt when it gets run out are those that have an issue with bolts and gear co-existing on the same line.
2. I've never suggested that it should be continued to the whole country, I'm not that blinkered, I was merely suggesting how sport and trad could co-exist by taking a middle path. Surely this would benefit UK climbing as a whole and allow more hard sport climbers to develop, as I'm sure most people will agree when compared to Europe with sport climbing, they are on a far superior level.
> (In reply to clgladiator)
> [...]
>
> It's not that simple! The presence of bolts changes the head game even if you're not actively using them because the option to clip is always there. Which reduces the challenge in much the same way as dangling a rope down the side of a solo...
>
> [...]
>
> The chopping of bolts on established sport crags is wrong, but try extending your argument (bolts are OK anywhere because you can ethically ignore them?) to the whole country for something that's truly in a different league!
> [...]
>
> It's not that simple! The presence of bolts changes the head game even if you're not actively using them because the option to clip is always there. Which reduces the challenge in much the same way as dangling a rope down the side of a solo...
>
> [...]
>
> The chopping of bolts on established sport crags is wrong, but try extending your argument (bolts are OK anywhere because you can ethically ignore them?) to the whole country for something that's truly in a different league!
1. If rhapsody or another equally hard trad line was (hypothetically) climbed through a line that had previously been bolted but the bolts where not used, does this actually make it any easier?
If you have established with yourself (and others, if this is important to you!) that you are not going to use the bolts, and ignore the bolts on your ascent, yes the bolts are still present but the head game is still there if you have the will power not cheat yourself and clip a bolt if you get scared.
The way I see, those that are mentally not able to to climb this hypothetical route without clipping a bolt when it gets run out are those that have an issue with bolts and gear co-existing on the same line.
2. I've never suggested that it should be continued to the whole country, I'm not that blinkered, I was merely suggesting how sport and trad could co-exist by taking a middle path. Surely this would benefit UK climbing as a whole and allow more hard sport climbers to develop, as I'm sure most people will agree when compared to Europe with sport climbing, they are on a far superior level.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Sounds like a rather curious and misguided act though hopefully not a counterproductive one. One has to wonder what the folk who stripped the crag thought would happen.
When the crag is re bolted let's hope it's done carefully and considerately.
Sounds like a rather curious and misguided act though hopefully not a counterproductive one. One has to wonder what the folk who stripped the crag thought would happen.
When the crag is re bolted let's hope it's done carefully and considerately.
In reply to clgladiator:
When you are 150-200 ft above your last good runner on a bolted climb you are making the route harder by being dumb, the simple fact is that the route defaults to the safest way of doing it because there is no real objective danger.
If I can climb VS without gear it dosnt make it E2 it makes me an idiot.
When you are 150-200 ft above your last good runner on a bolted climb you are making the route harder by being dumb, the simple fact is that the route defaults to the safest way of doing it because there is no real objective danger.
If I can climb VS without gear it dosnt make it E2 it makes me an idiot.
In reply to clgladiator:
Better ask someone who's climbed Rhapsody or another equally hard trad line?
You're just not getting this, are you? You can't ignore them for the head game, even if you don't 'cheat yourself'!
It's got nothing to do with mental ability, but everything to do with tradition, ethics and values.
You've stated clearly that (in your opinion) chopping bolts from established sport crags is in a totally different league to adding unwanted bolts elsewhere. QED.
> (In reply to petestack)
> 1. If rhapsody or another equally hard trad line was (hypothetically) climbed through a line that had previously been bolted but the bolts where not used, does this actually make it any easier?
> 1. If rhapsody or another equally hard trad line was (hypothetically) climbed through a line that had previously been bolted but the bolts where not used, does this actually make it any easier?
Better ask someone who's climbed Rhapsody or another equally hard trad line?
> If you have established with yourself (and others, if this is important to you!) that you are not going to use the bolts, and ignore the bolts on your ascent, yes the bolts are still present but the head game is still there if you have the will power not cheat yourself and clip a bolt if you get scared.
You're just not getting this, are you? You can't ignore them for the head game, even if you don't 'cheat yourself'!
> The way I see, those that are mentally not able to to climb this hypothetical route without clipping a bolt when it gets run out are those that have an issue with bolts and gear co-existing on the same line.
It's got nothing to do with mental ability, but everything to do with tradition, ethics and values.
> 2. I've never suggested that it should be continued to the whole country, I'm not that blinkered, I was merely suggesting how sport and trad could co-exist by taking a middle path. Surely this would benefit UK climbing as a whole and allow more hard sport climbers to develop, as I'm sure most people will agree when compared to Europe with sport climbing, they are on a far superior level.
You've stated clearly that (in your opinion) chopping bolts from established sport crags is in a totally different league to adding unwanted bolts elsewhere. QED.
In reply to seaofdreams:
Or you are making it harder by doing it in a truer style of ascent, something which people are very quick to point out, but only when it suits their argument it seems.
> (In reply to clgladiator)
>
> When you are 150-200 ft above your last good runner on a bolted climb you are making the route harder by being dumb
>
> When you are 150-200 ft above your last good runner on a bolted climb you are making the route harder by being dumb
Or you are making it harder by doing it in a truer style of ascent, something which people are very quick to point out, but only when it suits their argument it seems.
In reply to clgladiator:
No because the style has changed.
read the intro to "the games climbers play". the style of a route can be changed (permanently?) in a more positive direction and then never be reversed. if you want to use this argument then you must remove and never use the bolts again after it has been done without.
thus the Nose is not C2 any more its 5.13c
Zodiac is not A2 is C3+
the bat is no longer XS A0 its E2
No because the style has changed.
read the intro to "the games climbers play". the style of a route can be changed (permanently?) in a more positive direction and then never be reversed. if you want to use this argument then you must remove and never use the bolts again after it has been done without.
thus the Nose is not C2 any more its 5.13c
Zodiac is not A2 is C3+
the bat is no longer XS A0 its E2
In reply to clgladiator:
Do plenty of classic trad routes properly first. Then comment. At the moment you are talking a load of utter b@llocks. Apparently climbing's a 'Broad Church' - you should consider of your fellow brethren and worship the rock more.
Do plenty of classic trad routes properly first. Then comment. At the moment you are talking a load of utter b@llocks. Apparently climbing's a 'Broad Church' - you should consider of your fellow brethren and worship the rock more.
In reply to Removed User:
Knowing the person who is talking about re bolting it will be better than before.
> (In reply to Removed UserRobert Durran)
>
> When the crag is re bolted let's hope it's done carefully and considerately.
>
> When the crag is re bolted let's hope it's done carefully and considerately.
Knowing the person who is talking about re bolting it will be better than before.
In reply to MelH:
Whilst he is at it, can you ask him to have a look at the face just round from Ivy Crack?
It looks steep and intimidating, with little obvious protection.
Might be a candidate for another nice sport route (just like mypoics butress just along the face.
Whilst he is at it, can you ask him to have a look at the face just round from Ivy Crack?
It looks steep and intimidating, with little obvious protection.
Might be a candidate for another nice sport route (just like mypoics butress just along the face.
In reply to rusty_nails: Eh? That'll be the wall with Neil's own E5 Sideline crossing it then. Get back under your bridge....
tl;dr
But In reply to seaofdreams:
Assuming the rock is sound, it just makes you someone who is confident of your abilities. And ofc, if you choose to solo something, that doesnt change its grade, vs is still vs whether you trad climb it, solo it or climb it in boxing gloves and roller skates while on fire.
But In reply to seaofdreams:
> If I can climb VS without gear it dosnt make it E2 it makes me an idiot.
Assuming the rock is sound, it just makes you someone who is confident of your abilities. And ofc, if you choose to solo something, that doesnt change its grade, vs is still vs whether you trad climb it, solo it or climb it in boxing gloves and roller skates while on fire.
In reply to Samuel:
Please come out from yours you troll.
Last time i checked, the local guidebook did not mention any thing about an E5 on that wall, but then maybe we are not all as cutting edge as you...
> (In reply to rusty_nails) Eh? That'll be the wall with Neil's own E5 Sideline crossing it then. Get back under your bridge....
Please come out from yours you troll.
Last time i checked, the local guidebook did not mention any thing about an E5 on that wall, but then maybe we are not all as cutting edge as you...
In reply to rusty_nails: Retract your claws. Which wall are you meaning "round from Ivy Crack"? To the left or right? If it's just to the left someone has done an eliminate up it..
In reply to Bill Davidson:
Yeah, saw he was thinking about doing it when he came back from his hols.
Rusty - not entirely sure where you are meaning but you can email him through his website if you have an idea to put to him!!!
> (In reply to MelH)
>
> Not long now either Mel
>
> Not long now either Mel
Yeah, saw he was thinking about doing it when he came back from his hols.
Rusty - not entirely sure where you are meaning but you can email him through his website if you have an idea to put to him!!!
Not any more.....
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
You are Ken Wilson in disguise!
Can I claim my £5 now?
> (In reply to Papillon)
> [...]
>
> Waste of time here, it's totally f*cked already.... every single low altitude crag is grid bolted, and the mountains are following.
> [...]
>
> Waste of time here, it's totally f*cked already.... every single low altitude crag is grid bolted, and the mountains are following.
You are Ken Wilson in disguise!
Can I claim my £5 now?
In reply to clgladiator:
You didn't read my whole post or understand my rhetoric, or perhaps you did.
Chopping bolts in the UK is a rare occurance. Yes of course, UCC will/has been rebolted, and rightly so. These routes are well established. The actions of the original equippers had been accepted by the climbing community by the repetition of these routes, their documentation in publications and the fact they have been in so long - no action (chopping) against them.
However, just as bolts are placed by the action of an individual acting alone with usually no consensus that they should be placed, on the other hand if these bolts are removed they are removed usually by an individual acting alone with usually no consensus.
This is how it has always been.
However that is changing. New climbers are beginning to think that bolts are placed by some higher authority rather than individuals acting alone - good examples are Chedder Gorge and Castleburg at Settle.
That is a very old argument for bolting and its logical conclusion is that we bolt everything and people can then decide whether they clip them or not. Whilst what you say is true, you could decide not to clip the bolts, imagine lines of bolts up the Cromlech in the Lanberis Pass or al over Scafell.
Such actions would be the death of climbing in the UK.
Mick
who has placed hundreds of bolts
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> Im sorry but that is utter b*ll*cks, the putting in of bolts does not render the route un-climbable on trad gear, it is then down to your ethics as to whether you use the bolts or not. The chopping of bolts particularly on established sport crags removes the opportunity for people to climb the route in this style, its a totally different league.
>
> I hope this crag can get re-bolted and will not be the victim of chopping again, though sadly I feel that by the sounds of many on this forum that the 'trad fascist' is quite a common and sport climbing is seen as a threat to trad climbing, people with this viewpoint will most likely continue chopping bolts.
> [...]
>
> Im sorry but that is utter b*ll*cks, the putting in of bolts does not render the route un-climbable on trad gear, it is then down to your ethics as to whether you use the bolts or not. The chopping of bolts particularly on established sport crags removes the opportunity for people to climb the route in this style, its a totally different league.
>
> I hope this crag can get re-bolted and will not be the victim of chopping again, though sadly I feel that by the sounds of many on this forum that the 'trad fascist' is quite a common and sport climbing is seen as a threat to trad climbing, people with this viewpoint will most likely continue chopping bolts.
You didn't read my whole post or understand my rhetoric, or perhaps you did.
Chopping bolts in the UK is a rare occurance. Yes of course, UCC will/has been rebolted, and rightly so. These routes are well established. The actions of the original equippers had been accepted by the climbing community by the repetition of these routes, their documentation in publications and the fact they have been in so long - no action (chopping) against them.
However, just as bolts are placed by the action of an individual acting alone with usually no consensus that they should be placed, on the other hand if these bolts are removed they are removed usually by an individual acting alone with usually no consensus.
This is how it has always been.
However that is changing. New climbers are beginning to think that bolts are placed by some higher authority rather than individuals acting alone - good examples are Chedder Gorge and Castleburg at Settle.
> the putting in of bolts does not render the route un-climbable on trad gear, it is then down to your ethics as to whether you use the bolts or not.
That is a very old argument for bolting and its logical conclusion is that we bolt everything and people can then decide whether they clip them or not. Whilst what you say is true, you could decide not to clip the bolts, imagine lines of bolts up the Cromlech in the Lanberis Pass or al over Scafell.
Such actions would be the death of climbing in the UK.
Mick
who has placed hundreds of bolts
In reply to Robert Durran: Hey! - This is all quite proper! This has been covered in the UKC thread on 'Bolts on Broad Stand'.
It was decided here by some authoritative forum members that individual unilateral action without discourse or consultation, without waiting to consider the implications is to be applauded. The important thing is that they went out and did it!
It was decided here by some authoritative forum members that individual unilateral action without discourse or consultation, without waiting to consider the implications is to be applauded. The important thing is that they went out and did it!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Not sure if I understand this statement Mick; what "higher authority" do new climbers supposedly think is doing the bolting? Are they really that glaikit? And in what way has the bolting at the crags you mentioned been by committee?
Not on yer case, just curious. I largely agree with your description of hitorical bolting/debolting as being largely unilateral.
> However that is changing. New climbers are beginning to think that bolts are placed by some higher authority rather than individuals acting alone - good examples are Chedder Gorge and Castleburg at Settle.
Not sure if I understand this statement Mick; what "higher authority" do new climbers supposedly think is doing the bolting? Are they really that glaikit? And in what way has the bolting at the crags you mentioned been by committee?
Not on yer case, just curious. I largely agree with your description of hitorical bolting/debolting as being largely unilateral.
In reply to clgladiator:
Imagine you're faced with an onsight on a route which is clearly runout in its upper half and also close to your limit. Without the bolts you're faced with significant uncertainty -- if you can't do the moves up there you face a monster fall so the decision to embark on the lead is a big one.
With the bolts in the decision to try becomes insignificant as if you can't go forward or back up there then there is always the option to clip a bolt. You will never decide to take the potentially injurious fall. The element of uncertainty, so important in trad climbing, is nullified.
> The way I see, those that are mentally not able to to climb this hypothetical route without clipping a bolt when it gets run out are those that have an issue with bolts and gear co-existing on the same line.
Imagine you're faced with an onsight on a route which is clearly runout in its upper half and also close to your limit. Without the bolts you're faced with significant uncertainty -- if you can't do the moves up there you face a monster fall so the decision to embark on the lead is a big one.
With the bolts in the decision to try becomes insignificant as if you can't go forward or back up there then there is always the option to clip a bolt. You will never decide to take the potentially injurious fall. The element of uncertainty, so important in trad climbing, is nullified.
In reply to Robert Durran: Has this venue had the bolts replaced yet?
In reply to Alex C:
Respect to you for having the patience to explode this non-argument, when I hear it trotted out I want to go and log on at kalashnikov.com
Respect to you for having the patience to explode this non-argument, when I hear it trotted out I want to go and log on at kalashnikov.com
In reply to Dave Morrison: Yep.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...