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In reply to Toby S: I don't think it is necessarily the councils fault. I remember about 10 years ago having to design a road as part of my year in industry placement. The planning guidelines at the time said that all new road development had to include provision for cyclists. The Design Manual for Roads and Bridges then set out the standards to which cycle lanes must conform, but at no point was their any document which gave designers guidence on how to create a useful cycle lane. It would seem that this is still the case.
In reply to 999thAndy:
>I wondered where the planners from Stockport go on their holidays.
Ahh Stocky. Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
OP: I think councils have targets for the number of km of cycle routes they have to provide. I suppose that this adds another few hundred meters to that total.
>I wondered where the planners from Stockport go on their holidays.
Ahh Stocky. Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
OP: I think councils have targets for the number of km of cycle routes they have to provide. I suppose that this adds another few hundred meters to that total.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
<soapbox>
1. The council sees fit to entrust the lives of the most vulnerable group of road users to the student on a placement. That shows where cycle lanes in the council priority list.
2. Whats wrong with educating drivers to give cyclists some of the bit between the gutter and the middle?
Round here there are countless examples of "bike lanes", generally, just green paint on top of a 1/20 scale model of the San Andreas fault. Another thing: when the going gets tough, the bike lane stops.
</soapbox>
and breeeeeathe
> ... I remember about 10 years ago having to design a road as part of my year in industry placement. The planning guidelines at the time said that all new road development had to include provision for cyclists.
<soapbox>
1. The council sees fit to entrust the lives of the most vulnerable group of road users to the student on a placement. That shows where cycle lanes in the council priority list.
2. Whats wrong with educating drivers to give cyclists some of the bit between the gutter and the middle?
Round here there are countless examples of "bike lanes", generally, just green paint on top of a 1/20 scale model of the San Andreas fault. Another thing: when the going gets tough, the bike lane stops.
</soapbox>
and breeeeeathe
In reply to Jon Dittman:
Did you try and find one? I would be surprised if the CTC didn't have some thoughts.
> (In reply to Toby S) I don't think it is necessarily the councils fault. I remember about 10 years ago having to design a road as part of my year in industry placement. The planning guidelines at the time said that all new road development had to include provision for cyclists. The Design Manual for Roads and Bridges then set out the standards to which cycle lanes must conform, but at no point was their any document which gave designers guidence on how to create a useful cycle lane. It would seem that this is still the case.
Did you try and find one? I would be surprised if the CTC didn't have some thoughts.
In reply to Toby S:
which is why these guys have proposed their own solution:
http://www.lightlanebike.com/
which is why these guys have proposed their own solution:
http://www.lightlanebike.com/
In reply to Jon Dittman:
Whilst a 'How to design a good cycle lane' manual might be helpful (and I'm sure the various cycling bodies would be happy to supply one, even if there aren't already DETR guidelines; where's Howard Peel when you need him...?), I think you'd have to be spectacularly stupid to come up with a scheme as linked above.
Brainlessness, pig-headed box-ticking, or deliberate contrariness would be the reasons I'd think of for that scheme design.
Whilst a 'How to design a good cycle lane' manual might be helpful (and I'm sure the various cycling bodies would be happy to supply one, even if there aren't already DETR guidelines; where's Howard Peel when you need him...?), I think you'd have to be spectacularly stupid to come up with a scheme as linked above.
Brainlessness, pig-headed box-ticking, or deliberate contrariness would be the reasons I'd think of for that scheme design.
In reply to 999thAndy:
When I tried to cross that junction the other night I closed my eyes and said a prayer!
> (In reply to Toby S)
>
> I wondered where the planners from Stockport go on their holidays. Now I know.
>
> I wondered where the planners from Stockport go on their holidays. Now I know.
When I tried to cross that junction the other night I closed my eyes and said a prayer!
In reply to Toby S: In Nottingham the contraflow cycle lanes have signs saying no entry except cycles so all the drivers should know to expect cyclists coming the wrong way...apart from the fact that drivers going the right way obviously don't see those signs! To be honest it was the pedestrians who only look in the direction of car traffic who caused more problems for me.
In reply to Jem Cowen:
> (In reply to Toby S)
> which is why these guys have proposed their own solution:
> http://www.lightlanebike.com/
Brilliant! Not sure that it would be that effective though?
> which is why these guys have proposed their own solution:
> http://www.lightlanebike.com/
Brilliant! Not sure that it would be that effective though?
In reply to Toby S: it reminds me actually, that i never got an answer as to which side of the road you're meant to be on when cycling (legally) down a one way street!
In reply to Toby S: Aw quit whinging!
If you accept that the signs are ambiguous it pretty much gives you leave to cycle where the hell you want. Since when has having a cycle lane made any difference to the way drivers or padestrians treat cyclists anyhow?
Even though I commute by bike and cycle in a city a lot I still stop in the cyclists box at the lights and all the other bad habits that wind pedantic cyclists up when I'm in the car.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was a deliberate attempt to wind the cyclists up - they're generally a good target.
If you accept that the signs are ambiguous it pretty much gives you leave to cycle where the hell you want. Since when has having a cycle lane made any difference to the way drivers or padestrians treat cyclists anyhow?
Even though I commute by bike and cycle in a city a lot I still stop in the cyclists box at the lights and all the other bad habits that wind pedantic cyclists up when I'm in the car.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was a deliberate attempt to wind the cyclists up - they're generally a good target.
In reply to captain paranoia:
Howard's pages are here if you want them, save it unless you want to google archive org for them in future;
http://web.archive.org/web/20040412204527/www.thebikezone.org.uk/thebikezon...
Howard's pages are here if you want them, save it unless you want to google archive org for them in future;
http://web.archive.org/web/20040412204527/www.thebikezone.org.uk/thebikezon...
In reply to Toby S: Its not rocket science - I've seen em in Copenhagen
Pavement-kerb-cycle lane- kerb- road
Easy innit?
Pavement-kerb-cycle lane- kerb- road
Easy innit?
In reply to Toby S: Masses more planning genius here:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/index.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/index.htm
In reply to Toby S: I'm not sure how many cycle lane planners ever cycle
I wrote recently on my blog "the cycle path system isn't a system as such, but rather a collection of good intentions never clearly thought out from the users' perspectives."
http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/search/label/bad%20cycle%20paths
I wrote recently on my blog "the cycle path system isn't a system as such, but rather a collection of good intentions never clearly thought out from the users' perspectives."
http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/search/label/bad%20cycle%20paths
In reply to Chris Harris:
Let's assume no photoshopping was employed to create the picture for April. Someone in the council should be forced to cycle that road every day until he dies, which would give him a life expectancy of a week, tops.
Let's assume no photoshopping was employed to create the picture for April. Someone in the council should be forced to cycle that road every day until he dies, which would give him a life expectancy of a week, tops.
In reply to Toby S:
Highways (this includes pavements / cycle lanes) are part of the Highways Act, not the Town & Country Planning Act.
Most Highways Departments are very car focussed and full of weirdos, Planners are slightly more normal and a lot more cycle friendly on the whole.
Nick - former Planner.
> Genius. Clearly they don't pay the planners enough:
>
Planners do not design road layouts / cyclelanes, highways engineers do.>
Highways (this includes pavements / cycle lanes) are part of the Highways Act, not the Town & Country Planning Act.
Most Highways Departments are very car focussed and full of weirdos, Planners are slightly more normal and a lot more cycle friendly on the whole.
Nick - former Planner.
In reply to The New NickB:
But the highways engineers are usually 'acting under orders'.
When my local council started applying 'traffic calming measures' for a down-graded A-road near me (bypassed), when it became apparent that these measures would make my life more dangerous as a cyclist (narrow constrictions without cycle bypasses as recommended by DETR guidelines), I complained, and eventually got passed to the engineers implementeing the scheme. They had made exactly the same comments to the planners, but the planners rejected their recommendations and insisted they do what they were told.
> Planners do not design road layouts / cyclelanes, highways engineers do
But the highways engineers are usually 'acting under orders'.
When my local council started applying 'traffic calming measures' for a down-graded A-road near me (bypassed), when it became apparent that these measures would make my life more dangerous as a cyclist (narrow constrictions without cycle bypasses as recommended by DETR guidelines), I complained, and eventually got passed to the engineers implementeing the scheme. They had made exactly the same comments to the planners, but the planners rejected their recommendations and insisted they do what they were told.
In reply to Toby S:
We should start a campaign on this and lobby coun councillors and speak to head of planning, I know him.
Aarhus in Denmark has some great examples of how it should be done.
There will be choices though and in an urban non dual carriageway/motorway situation I think the car should always come second.
Specifically in Inverness that means NOT completing the road to Milton of Leys apart from for buses and bikes.
We should start a campaign on this and lobby coun councillors and speak to head of planning, I know him.
Aarhus in Denmark has some great examples of how it should be done.
There will be choices though and in an urban non dual carriageway/motorway situation I think the car should always come second.
Specifically in Inverness that means NOT completing the road to Milton of Leys apart from for buses and bikes.
In reply to Donald M:
Round here the council's policies specifically state that all road developments should be made considering the users in the following order of priority.
1) pedestrians
2) cyclists
3) public transport
4) private motorists
Of course they still do exactly the opposite.
Round here the council's policies specifically state that all road developments should be made considering the users in the following order of priority.
1) pedestrians
2) cyclists
3) public transport
4) private motorists
Of course they still do exactly the opposite.
In reply to Toby S:
Frightening! lol
Im a believer of cycling licences and cycle road tax in return of dedicated lanes being put in. until then, guess this is what the uk cyclist has to deal with
Frightening! lol
Im a believer of cycling licences and cycle road tax in return of dedicated lanes being put in. until then, guess this is what the uk cyclist has to deal with
In reply to Toby S:
For contributions from around the country see this
The Cycle Facility of the Month
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/July2009.ht...
For contributions from around the country see this
The Cycle Facility of the Month
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/July2009.ht...
In reply to IanC:
Brilliant! what do you do? pull up get off the bike and it stays there in an upright position?
Brilliant! what do you do? pull up get off the bike and it stays there in an upright position?
In reply to Toby S:
cyclist wins damages over bad cycle lane
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8121447.stm
cyclist wins damages over bad cycle lane
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8121447.stm
In reply to Toby S:
Even worse the Local Authority I work for has withdrawn the cycle to work scheme. Fortunately I got a new road bike and kit last year before they closed the scheme but I was hoping this year to get a new mountain bike this year.
Even worse the Local Authority I work for has withdrawn the cycle to work scheme. Fortunately I got a new road bike and kit last year before they closed the scheme but I was hoping this year to get a new mountain bike this year.
In reply to Toby S:
Am I right in thinking that there is/was EU funding available to authorities that put cycle lanes in.
If I am, then this probably explains all the dangerous, daft and short cycle lanes that have been put in. You know, say you will do this, get the funding but only spend the minimal amount. Or possibly not bother to match it or add to it to set up proper lanes, which was probably how the funding was expected to be used originally.
This way boxes are ticked and authorities can promote themselves as having conformed to guidelines etc. etc.
Am I right in thinking that there is/was EU funding available to authorities that put cycle lanes in.
If I am, then this probably explains all the dangerous, daft and short cycle lanes that have been put in. You know, say you will do this, get the funding but only spend the minimal amount. Or possibly not bother to match it or add to it to set up proper lanes, which was probably how the funding was expected to be used originally.
This way boxes are ticked and authorities can promote themselves as having conformed to guidelines etc. etc.
In reply to Toby S:
Bexhill created a "cycle lane" along one of it's major roads a year or so ago by painting a dotted white line about 3 ft out from the kerb and painted cycle images on it.
Result?
All the residents park their cars on it.
Bexhill created a "cycle lane" along one of it's major roads a year or so ago by painting a dotted white line about 3 ft out from the kerb and painted cycle images on it.
Result?
All the residents park their cars on it.
In reply to captain paranoia:
Someone has been yanking your chain. It is on the highway so Highways Regulations.
Someone has been yanking your chain. It is on the highway so Highways Regulations.
In reply to The New NickB:
Sorry, I can't keep track of the ever-changing boundaries and responsibilities of Government departments (what a waste of money that is...).
DETR were formerly responsible for roads (Department for the Environment, TRANSPORT and the Regions).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_State_for_the_Environment,_Transp...
reckons that it ought to be DfT these days, having been re-named, merged and split a number of times (splitting out of E to leave DTLR, then splitting L&R out to OotDPM, leaving DfT).
Here's a defunct URL from November 2001 that pointed to the cycle guidelines provided by DETR (after the re-naming, but before they'd got around to re-naming or re-organising the DETR website):
http: //www.roads.detr.gov.uk/roadnetwork/ditm/tal/cycle/index.htm
Don't bother trying to use it, as it's dead (and UKC knows it...). I won't quote the spurious 'Petronius Arbiter' comment on re-organisation, but it's appropriate.
Sorry, I can't keep track of the ever-changing boundaries and responsibilities of Government departments (what a waste of money that is...).
DETR were formerly responsible for roads (Department for the Environment, TRANSPORT and the Regions).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_State_for_the_Environment,_Transp...
reckons that it ought to be DfT these days, having been re-named, merged and split a number of times (splitting out of E to leave DTLR, then splitting L&R out to OotDPM, leaving DfT).
Here's a defunct URL from November 2001 that pointed to the cycle guidelines provided by DETR (after the re-naming, but before they'd got around to re-naming or re-organising the DETR website):
http: //www.roads.detr.gov.uk/roadnetwork/ditm/tal/cycle/index.htm
Don't bother trying to use it, as it's dead (and UKC knows it...). I won't quote the spurious 'Petronius Arbiter' comment on re-organisation, but it's appropriate.
In reply to Toby S:
Until about 40 years ago, many of the pavements around Inverness town centre were Caithness slate and a few granite setts still remained on small street. For much of the intervening period they were replaced by concrete and tarmac. Now we spend millions going back to the materials we abandoned decades ago because it was expensive or had insufficient load-bearing properties. We are subjected to an endless cycle of new streetscapes by second-rate contractors and second-rate traffic designers. It will no doubt be only a few months before they start screwing up our town again and those trying to do business here can be dealt a further blow as their customers pass up opportunities to play a new game of 'dodge the cone' for months on end.
Cycle-ways are half done and those cyclists who ARE interested in obeying the law have no idea what it is. The lorry drivers are in trouble because there are no clear answers about their rights and responsibilities in these ridiculous shared spaces and then there is the load-bearing ability of these half-baked designs. How long before this lot cracks up?
The deaf or the blind have no idea what is going on. The rest of the town are only barely ahead of them.
Meanwhile, the broken paving slab half-way down the south side of Bridge Street that has been tripping up children and old people for the last 15 years has still not been fixed, we have no trunk bypass, and the railway bridge at Millburn remains a serious impediment to traffic flowing in or out of the largest industrial estate in the north.
So long as our streets are in keeping up with the latest fashion, there is plenty space to subdue and cuff all the drunks at night, and most of the traffic in town is parked out of sight (on the SDR and Harbour Road) then surely everything will be fine?
Does vomit permanently stain Caithness slate? Probably not if it's from Caithness I suppose.
Until about 40 years ago, many of the pavements around Inverness town centre were Caithness slate and a few granite setts still remained on small street. For much of the intervening period they were replaced by concrete and tarmac. Now we spend millions going back to the materials we abandoned decades ago because it was expensive or had insufficient load-bearing properties. We are subjected to an endless cycle of new streetscapes by second-rate contractors and second-rate traffic designers. It will no doubt be only a few months before they start screwing up our town again and those trying to do business here can be dealt a further blow as their customers pass up opportunities to play a new game of 'dodge the cone' for months on end.
Cycle-ways are half done and those cyclists who ARE interested in obeying the law have no idea what it is. The lorry drivers are in trouble because there are no clear answers about their rights and responsibilities in these ridiculous shared spaces and then there is the load-bearing ability of these half-baked designs. How long before this lot cracks up?
The deaf or the blind have no idea what is going on. The rest of the town are only barely ahead of them.
Meanwhile, the broken paving slab half-way down the south side of Bridge Street that has been tripping up children and old people for the last 15 years has still not been fixed, we have no trunk bypass, and the railway bridge at Millburn remains a serious impediment to traffic flowing in or out of the largest industrial estate in the north.
So long as our streets are in keeping up with the latest fashion, there is plenty space to subdue and cuff all the drunks at night, and most of the traffic in town is parked out of sight (on the SDR and Harbour Road) then surely everything will be fine?
Does vomit permanently stain Caithness slate? Probably not if it's from Caithness I suppose.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Kendal has a nightmare one way system that takes you right round the centre of town. I have totally lost track as to whether cyclists are allowed straight through the pedestrianisation which is a nonsense anyway because of all the vehicles that are allowed through it!
The shops are gradually dying because parking is bad, strangers don't want to stop because they may not be able to find their way out again and anyone trying to find their way from one end of town to the other can expect long delays if it is a busy period. Kendal is a beautiful town but if the planners keep on messing about and changing the system (each time making it worse) there will be no trade left and visitors won't bother coming.
Kendal has a nightmare one way system that takes you right round the centre of town. I have totally lost track as to whether cyclists are allowed straight through the pedestrianisation which is a nonsense anyway because of all the vehicles that are allowed through it!
The shops are gradually dying because parking is bad, strangers don't want to stop because they may not be able to find their way out again and anyone trying to find their way from one end of town to the other can expect long delays if it is a busy period. Kendal is a beautiful town but if the planners keep on messing about and changing the system (each time making it worse) there will be no trade left and visitors won't bother coming.
In reply to Knitting Norah:
Kendal WAS a nice town, then they did the one way system and it got better. Then they altered it and it got worse as you say. Now if they went back to the original late 60s layout they may get things back on an even keel.
Kendal WAS a nice town, then they did the one way system and it got better. Then they altered it and it got worse as you say. Now if they went back to the original late 60s layout they may get things back on an even keel.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Well I've just had a call from the Inverness Courier asking if they can use comments and photos from the blog for an article they're going to do.
Well I've just had a call from the Inverness Courier asking if they can use comments and photos from the blog for an article they're going to do.
In reply to Toby S: My housemate works for Sustrans & their whole office found it highly amusing so I'm not surprised the local rag is interested
In reply to Jon Dittman:
This is typical.
I have recently had an exchange of letters through an MSP about the original design of the A9 and the plans for a new road. The civil servants say that my interpretation of the 1970s design method is incorrect. However, I know that that interpretation was used by at least one UK roads department during that period. No need for anything to actually work so long as it's in fashion.
> (In reply to Toby S) ... Design Manual for Roads and Bridges then set out the standards to which cycle lanes must conform, ...
>
> ... at no point was their any document which gave designers guidence on how to create a useful cycle lane. ...
>
> ... at no point was their any document which gave designers guidence on how to create a useful cycle lane. ...
This is typical.
I have recently had an exchange of letters through an MSP about the original design of the A9 and the plans for a new road. The civil servants say that my interpretation of the 1970s design method is incorrect. However, I know that that interpretation was used by at least one UK roads department during that period. No need for anything to actually work so long as it's in fashion.
In reply to Toby S:
Great. I have been feeding info to another news organisation on the same matter.
> (In reply to Jim Fraser)
>
> ... had a call from the Inverness Courier ...
>
> ... had a call from the Inverness Courier ...
Great. I have been feeding info to another news organisation on the same matter.
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