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I've trained for SPA but am unsure on a few points. Could anybody help out please.
When gathering the rigging rope loops from anchor points, what knot is best used to join/equalise them? (large overhand or F8 or other) and how many loops should be formed? Two or sometimes three?
Can you equalise/rig the anchors using slings such as large dyneema?
Should the safety rope be dynamic or static only?
When gathering the rigging rope loops from anchor points, what knot is best used to join/equalise them? (large overhand or F8 or other) and how many loops should be formed? Two or sometimes three?
Can you equalise/rig the anchors using slings such as large dyneema?
Should the safety rope be dynamic or static only?
In reply to Daniel Hunter:
The usual knot is the Double Fisherman's Knot but many people favour the Overhand Knot as it is less likely to snag apparently.
What do you mean by how many loops? If you mean how many bights then you will have one per anchorage.
Of course you can use dyneema slings to equalise your anchors.
It is most unlikey that you will be using static line.
Surely the SPA does not require you to pull your ropes down after you as single pitch crags are easy to escape from and therefore it is easy enough to walk around to the top after an abseil to retrieve the rope.
> I've trained for SPA but am unsure on a few points. Could anybody help out please.
>
> When gathering the rigging rope loops from anchor points, what knot is best used to join/equalise them? (large overhand or F8 or other) and how many loops should be formed? Two or sometimes three?
> Can you equalise/rig the anchors using slings such as large dyneema?
> Should the safety rope be dynamic or static only?
>
> When gathering the rigging rope loops from anchor points, what knot is best used to join/equalise them? (large overhand or F8 or other) and how many loops should be formed? Two or sometimes three?
> Can you equalise/rig the anchors using slings such as large dyneema?
> Should the safety rope be dynamic or static only?
The usual knot is the Double Fisherman's Knot but many people favour the Overhand Knot as it is less likely to snag apparently.
What do you mean by how many loops? If you mean how many bights then you will have one per anchorage.
Of course you can use dyneema slings to equalise your anchors.
It is most unlikey that you will be using static line.
Surely the SPA does not require you to pull your ropes down after you as single pitch crags are easy to escape from and therefore it is easy enough to walk around to the top after an abseil to retrieve the rope.
In reply to Daniel Hunter:
Do you mean what knot do you use to form your 'powerpoint'* in the rigging rope? Big Fig8 or overhand.
Big slings are fine but with rope it's easier to position the belay just where you want it. It's also easier to untie after numerous load cycles.
So far as I recall dynamic belay rope is fine.
jk
*sorry for the awful americanism
Do you mean what knot do you use to form your 'powerpoint'* in the rigging rope? Big Fig8 or overhand.
Big slings are fine but with rope it's easier to position the belay just where you want it. It's also easier to untie after numerous load cycles.
So far as I recall dynamic belay rope is fine.
jk
*sorry for the awful americanism
In reply to Daniel Hunter: I think the previous poster misunderstood you.
I'm assuming your on about equalising the anchors to a single point. Personally I mostly use a fig 8 mostly sometimes with 2 loops (BEK) depending on if I need a second loop. The BEK I find come undone more easily afterwards as well.
A safety should be dynamic.
Yes you can use slings.
I'm assuming your on about equalising the anchors to a single point. Personally I mostly use a fig 8 mostly sometimes with 2 loops (BEK) depending on if I need a second loop. The BEK I find come undone more easily afterwards as well.
A safety should be dynamic.
Yes you can use slings.
In reply to Daniel Hunter:
I tie one end of the rope to large boa crab using a fig8 then make loops out to the gear and back tying them to the boa (wide end) using clove hitches. once all equalised i then tie a fig8 on a bite slightly down the rope and clip that in to the boa (narrow end).
I tie one end of the rope to large boa crab using a fig8 then make loops out to the gear and back tying them to the boa (wide end) using clove hitches. once all equalised i then tie a fig8 on a bite slightly down the rope and clip that in to the boa (narrow end).
In reply to Daniel Hunter:
Q1 The norm is an overhand or figure of eight knot; the strength of the knot isn't really an issue here. And think it through - if youre bringing rigging rope from three anchors you will produce three loops after tying the knot. From four anchors you will produce four. If I understand your question!
Q2 Yes indeed!
Q3 The safety roope wold normally be dynamic; as a general principle if you're going to hang a person on the end of a rope then make that rope dynamic. If they're climbing up, or sliding down, the rope then static is good.
Q1 The norm is an overhand or figure of eight knot; the strength of the knot isn't really an issue here. And think it through - if youre bringing rigging rope from three anchors you will produce three loops after tying the knot. From four anchors you will produce four. If I understand your question!
Q2 Yes indeed!
Q3 The safety roope wold normally be dynamic; as a general principle if you're going to hang a person on the end of a rope then make that rope dynamic. If they're climbing up, or sliding down, the rope then static is good.
In reply to jezb1:
Thanks, and to jk.
Whats a BEK?
So just to clarify... If I put the rigging rope through 3 anchor points and then gather up all the inbetween bights, then tie a huge fig8 or overhand (is an overhand acceptable??) then there will form three loops for the 'powerpoint' as you put it? That's correct isn't it.
Generally only two are required, one for the abseil rope and one for the tie off and safety.
Does that all make sense?
Pimpernel, you lost me somewhere!
Thanks, and to jk.
Whats a BEK?
So just to clarify... If I put the rigging rope through 3 anchor points and then gather up all the inbetween bights, then tie a huge fig8 or overhand (is an overhand acceptable??) then there will form three loops for the 'powerpoint' as you put it? That's correct isn't it.
Generally only two are required, one for the abseil rope and one for the tie off and safety.
Does that all make sense?
Pimpernel, you lost me somewhere!
In reply to Daniel Hunter: I've asssumed you are setting up an ab? Therefore 2 anchor points would mean tieing a normal fig 8 / overhand creating one loop.
If you have 3 anchors = 2 loops.
BEK = bunny ears knot, a fig of 8 tied slightly different to give two loops.
If you have 3 anchors = 2 loops.
BEK = bunny ears knot, a fig of 8 tied slightly different to give two loops.
In reply to Andy Say:
Very helpful. If I tie an overhand or fig8 then all the loops formed can be used independently at same strength... ie. it's not necessay for everything to be clipped to ALL the loops.
Is it true that regardless of overhand or fig8 all the loops after become independent as do all the anchor strands before?
> (In reply to Daniel Hunter)
> Q1 The norm is an overhand or figure of eight knot; the strength of the knot isn't really an issue here. And think it through - if youre bringing rigging rope from three anchors you will produce three loops after tying the knot. From four anchors you will produce four. If I understand your question!
> Q1 The norm is an overhand or figure of eight knot; the strength of the knot isn't really an issue here. And think it through - if youre bringing rigging rope from three anchors you will produce three loops after tying the knot. From four anchors you will produce four. If I understand your question!
Very helpful. If I tie an overhand or fig8 then all the loops formed can be used independently at same strength... ie. it's not necessay for everything to be clipped to ALL the loops.
Is it true that regardless of overhand or fig8 all the loops after become independent as do all the anchor strands before?
In reply to jezb1:
Is that a Double Fig8 ??
> (In reply to Daniel Hunter)
> BEK = bunny ears knot, a fig of 8 tied slightly different to give two loops.
> BEK = bunny ears knot, a fig of 8 tied slightly different to give two loops.
Is that a Double Fig8 ??
In reply to Daniel Hunter: Clipping to the individual loops is fine.
In reply to Daniel Hunter:
Bunny Ears Knot at a guess, a Fig8 on the bight that forms two loops not one. Not quite the easiest way of forming two belay loops in your rigging rope just where you want them but it uses the least rope for sure, handy if you are short of rigging rope.
Overhand is fine (and common). You get as many loops as you have belay pieces on the rope. Use as many or few as you need (2 normally).
Yep.
jk
> Whats a BEK?
Bunny Ears Knot at a guess, a Fig8 on the bight that forms two loops not one. Not quite the easiest way of forming two belay loops in your rigging rope just where you want them but it uses the least rope for sure, handy if you are short of rigging rope.
> So just to clarify... If I put the rigging rope through 3 anchor points and then gather up all the inbetween bights, then tie a huge fig8 or overhand (is an overhand acceptable??) then there will form three loops for the 'powerpoint' as you put it? That's correct isn't it.
Overhand is fine (and common). You get as many loops as you have belay pieces on the rope. Use as many or few as you need (2 normally).
> Generally only two are required, one for the abseil rope and one for the tie off and safety.
> Does that all make sense?
> Does that all make sense?
Yep.
jk
In reply to Daniel Hunter:
http://www.animatedknots.com/fig8loopdouble/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jp...
> (In reply to jezb1)
> [...]
>
> Is that a Double Fig8 ??
> [...]
>
> Is that a Double Fig8 ??
http://www.animatedknots.com/fig8loopdouble/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jp...
In reply to jkarran:
Not understanding this bit. If you are setting up a rigging rope and use two anchors, you tie the rope into both, creating a V. Tie a overhand or whatever and you only get one loop.
If you use 3 anchors, you will create a W shape. Equalise this with your knot and you get 2 loops.
> (In reply to Daniel Hunter)
>
> Overhand is fine (and common). You get as many loops as you have belay pieces on the rope. Use as many or few as you need (2 normally).
>
>
> Overhand is fine (and common). You get as many loops as you have belay pieces on the rope. Use as many or few as you need (2 normally).
>
Not understanding this bit. If you are setting up a rigging rope and use two anchors, you tie the rope into both, creating a V. Tie a overhand or whatever and you only get one loop.
If you use 3 anchors, you will create a W shape. Equalise this with your knot and you get 2 loops.
In reply to jkarran:
It just makes sense to me. Simple and adjustable.
> (In reply to gethin_allen)
>
> Why? <genuine question>
> jk
>
> Why? <genuine question>
> jk
It just makes sense to me. Simple and adjustable.
In reply to jezb1:
That's only if you actually tie off the 'ends' of the rope to the two 'end anchors'. Common practice is to bring the rope back from the last anchor and incorporate that into the big knot so then its one loop per anchor in the system. It doesn't really matter......
> (In reply to jkarran)
> setting up a rigging rope and use two anchors, you tie the rope into both, creating a V. Tie a overhand or whatever and you only get one loop.
>
> If you use 3 anchors, you will create a W shape. Equalise this with your knot and you get 2 loops.
> setting up a rigging rope and use two anchors, you tie the rope into both, creating a V. Tie a overhand or whatever and you only get one loop.
>
> If you use 3 anchors, you will create a W shape. Equalise this with your knot and you get 2 loops.
That's only if you actually tie off the 'ends' of the rope to the two 'end anchors'. Common practice is to bring the rope back from the last anchor and incorporate that into the big knot so then its one loop per anchor in the system. It doesn't really matter......
In reply to Andy Say: Got ya, have never seen that done before.
In reply to Daniel Hunter: Personally the way I set up the rigging rope is to put a loop on one end (normally with a Fig 8 knot) and clip that to the first anchor. I'll then stitch each aditional anchor up with each loop between anchors going to a central point where I want my belay to be. I then balance all my anchors appropriately, this is sometimes easiest done by clipping all the loops to a single crab, or just use your hand/arm. All you then have to do is tie a BFK (Big Knot) ensuring that you include both sides of the bite of rope coming back from your last anchor (supprisingly easy to forget about the return and then your last anchor is a waste of time!). I normally prefer to use an overhand knot as it's easier to tie with 6 or 8 bits of rope but a Fig 8 is also suitable for this. At this point you can clip all the loops below the knot in any manor you wish, either all together or individually for seperate anchor points. As others have said you can use slings to do exactly the same thing or a lash up similar or you can use a long length of static rope, depends what you have to hand really. I'd avoid dynamic rope for rigging though as it makes it harder to work out where everything will be once loaded due to the stretch although I have seen it done.
If I'm setting the above up for an abseil then I normally equalise the anchors a short distance back from the point I want the abseil rope to be anchored and then using a large crap and the left over rigging rope run a single length to where I want the abseil anchored and then tie a Bunny's ears Fig 8 with loops of different lengths, one for the abseil rope and the other for the safety. I'll quite often also put my own safety leash onto this single length via a prusic giving me maximum flexability without having to unclip.
This gives you (from the anchor down) the anchor, rigging rope, equalising BFK, large screwgate crab, Fig 8 knot single length of rope, Bunnys ears Fig 8, Abseil rope/safety rope.
If I'm setting the above up for an abseil then I normally equalise the anchors a short distance back from the point I want the abseil rope to be anchored and then using a large crap and the left over rigging rope run a single length to where I want the abseil anchored and then tie a Bunny's ears Fig 8 with loops of different lengths, one for the abseil rope and the other for the safety. I'll quite often also put my own safety leash onto this single length via a prusic giving me maximum flexability without having to unclip.
This gives you (from the anchor down) the anchor, rigging rope, equalising BFK, large screwgate crab, Fig 8 knot single length of rope, Bunnys ears Fig 8, Abseil rope/safety rope.
In reply to gethin_allen:
Major advantage of your system is that you can use one hell of a lot less rope. The equalisation can be done relatively close to the anchors and then the rope coming from the 'narrow' end of your Boa can be used to extend to wherever you want to be.
Major advantage of your system is that you can use one hell of a lot less rope. The equalisation can be done relatively close to the anchors and then the rope coming from the 'narrow' end of your Boa can be used to extend to wherever you want to be.
In reply to Daniel Hunter:
Large figure of 8/9 or bunny ears is best depending on how many anchors points your using. You need to form atleast 2 loops, one for static ab rope and one for dynamic safety rope.
You can rig with slings.
safety rope always needs to be dynamic.
few people have said on here that you can use an overhand, which you could, but why would you? fig 8 is stronger and alot easier to undo when its been loaded all day.
just out of interest when and who did you do training with??
Si
> I've trained for SPA but am unsure on a few points. Could anybody help out please.
>
> When gathering the rigging rope loops from anchor points, what knot is best used to join/equalise them? (large overhand or F8 or other) and how many loops should be formed? Two or sometimes three?
> Can you equalise/rig the anchors using slings such as large dyneema?
> Should the safety rope be dynamic or static only?
>
> When gathering the rigging rope loops from anchor points, what knot is best used to join/equalise them? (large overhand or F8 or other) and how many loops should be formed? Two or sometimes three?
> Can you equalise/rig the anchors using slings such as large dyneema?
> Should the safety rope be dynamic or static only?
Large figure of 8/9 or bunny ears is best depending on how many anchors points your using. You need to form atleast 2 loops, one for static ab rope and one for dynamic safety rope.
You can rig with slings.
safety rope always needs to be dynamic.
few people have said on here that you can use an overhand, which you could, but why would you? fig 8 is stronger and alot easier to undo when its been loaded all day.
just out of interest when and who did you do training with??
Si
In reply to Andy Say:
Just exactly as Dave80 has outlined in detail above!
> (In reply to gethin_allen)
> Major advantage of your system is that you can use one hell of a lot less rope. The equalisation can be done relatively close to the anchors and then the rope coming from the 'narrow' end of your Boa can be used to extend to wherever you want to be.
> Major advantage of your system is that you can use one hell of a lot less rope. The equalisation can be done relatively close to the anchors and then the rope coming from the 'narrow' end of your Boa can be used to extend to wherever you want to be.
Just exactly as Dave80 has outlined in detail above!
In reply to sihills:
As someone said, overhand can be easier to tie with multiple strands of fat static line.
> (In reply to Daniel Hunter)
> [...]
>
> few people have said on here that you can use an overhand, which you could, but why would you? fig 8 is stronger and alot easier to undo when its been loaded all day.
>
> [...]
>
> few people have said on here that you can use an overhand, which you could, but why would you? fig 8 is stronger and alot easier to undo when its been loaded all day.
>
As someone said, overhand can be easier to tie with multiple strands of fat static line.
In reply to sihills: I use the overhand because it's easier to tie multiple belay strands into and I've never had a problem untying it - even after loading it all day. As for strength, it's not an issue that has any realistic implications in this usage.
In reply to gethin_allen: Surely that's going to three way load your krab, or more...
In reply to tipsy:
> (In reply to gethin_allen) Surely that's going to three way load your krab, or more...
Krabs like the Boa are designed to take load across the arc of their wide ends, a couple of clove hitches will be no problem; that's why for their size and weight they are rated as relatively weak.In reply to tipsy:
The stress on the krab depends on your anchors, in some cases it would need to be modified, but, you have to consider that the forces when abseiling are relatively low and that the boa krab is shaped to accommodate this use and is stronger than the average srewgate (12kn across the gate).
The stress on the krab depends on your anchors, in some cases it would need to be modified, but, you have to consider that the forces when abseiling are relatively low and that the boa krab is shaped to accommodate this use and is stronger than the average srewgate (12kn across the gate).
In reply to gethin_allen:
For the abseil rope? I think they quite like a releasable abseil for the SPA so an italian hitch might be a better bet rather than a figure of eight (with plenty of slack to lower to the floor if something gets well and truly jammed).
> (In reply to Daniel Hunter)
> once all equalised i then tie a fig8 on a bite slightly down the rope and clip that in to the boa (narrow end).
> once all equalised i then tie a fig8 on a bite slightly down the rope and clip that in to the boa (narrow end).
For the abseil rope? I think they quite like a releasable abseil for the SPA so an italian hitch might be a better bet rather than a figure of eight (with plenty of slack to lower to the floor if something gets well and truly jammed).
In reply to Daniel Hunter: Totaly argree with most posts here, I would not get to obsessed about which knot as they both reduced rope strength by about the same and asuming you are using a static (corectly named a low stretch rope) you will only be reducing your rope strength to 22kn which if you are working with a large punter of say 100 kg's (1kn) still gives you a static system safety factor of over 20 to 1. So you would have to go some to snap the rope. In practice I have lowered 3 guys and a stretcher (280kg ish) off over hand knots so I think you will be fine!
In reply to Daniel Hunter:
Have a look here:
http://www.chauvinguides.com/Anchoring.PDF
I might quibble over a few details but it's basically sound.
CJ.
Have a look here:
http://www.chauvinguides.com/Anchoring.PDF
I might quibble over a few details but it's basically sound.
CJ.
In reply to Daniel Hunter: You've probably had your answer, but I have just had my training. We were shown a huge overhand (BFK) to give multiple loops for your ab rope, safety rope and your personal cow's tail. Dynamic for the safety is what we used.
In reply to Aly:
> (In reply to gethin_allen)
> [...]
>
> For the abseil rope? I think they quite like a releasable abseil for the SPA so an italian hitch might be a better bet rather than a figure of eight (with plenty of slack to lower to the floor if something gets well and truly jammed).
Nope. This is still the anchor system. Gethin then takes the rope from the fig 8 to where he wants to set up then finishes his anchor system there. THEN attaches the abseil rope.> [...]
>
> For the abseil rope? I think they quite like a releasable abseil for the SPA so an italian hitch might be a better bet rather than a figure of eight (with plenty of slack to lower to the floor if something gets well and truly jammed).
In reply to Andy Say:
That is usually what I would do setting up a top rope rather than an abseil as usually you will be selecting a site for abseiling where the preferred anchor is above waist height and back from the edge allowing clients to easily attach and move to the edge.
Then if you are going to use the same set up site for a top rope (sorry you use bottom roping I gather) you just extend it over the edge as mentioned, remembering to make your extension redundant
That is usually what I would do setting up a top rope rather than an abseil as usually you will be selecting a site for abseiling where the preferred anchor is above waist height and back from the edge allowing clients to easily attach and move to the edge.
Then if you are going to use the same set up site for a top rope (sorry you use bottom roping I gather) you just extend it over the edge as mentioned, remembering to make your extension redundant
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