UKC

Is Stevie Haston right about Britain?

The Brits in the late eighties and early nineties were pretty much on top, but that has changed badly. Living on the continent, especially in France, you are never short of someone to teach you how to climb better. I see some of the best and try to learn. Four years ago on the same cliff as Bam Bam I did two routes they might be E9 and E10, I was only able to do this because my skills continue to develop. I have lost faith in the British grading system. I prefer to think of them as very dangerous 7c+ with some poor rock and a big chance of hitting the ground. The British scene is now very hyped with few elite climbers, the old skills that Brits were famous for are not keeping up with real athletic standards, there are some good climbers operating, but not that many and they are too conceited. You know an E8 in the Peak District can be four meters high! There is a lot of nonsense in the climbing world, not just in Britain. If you taught Ondra to use nuts (and he would obviously learn in about five minutes, he's very clever) he would do most of the hard routes very easily as would any of his contemporaries - I believe the Brits don't want to accept this. Having said that, the climbing available in Britain is still wonderfully varied, with sea cliffs, small mountain crags and some good sport climbing. I would climb there more but the weather and food are terrible. Actually I think that's why we used to be so good, the food is truly poisonous, inedible. It's easy to stay thin!

From a Planet Mountain interview a few days ago.
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=36...

In reply to stp: Yes, except for the food.

In reply to stp: I think what he says is true of the very Sheffield/eastern peak grit centred climbing with all the hype etc but this cant really be said of all British climbing, like in the film Onsight a continental 9a sport climber falls of Strawberries, Nightmayer and probably a few other routes like that (granted all put up in the late eighties/early nineties, as were Indian Face, Masters Wall and other nightmarish lines). I'm presuming Stevie Haston is American? It seems fashionable lately for Americans to criticise British climbing, why do they feel the need? It probably started when Team America came round and found things overhyped, but they didnt go to Wales or Ben Nevis or even Wimburry.

In reply to Red Rover: Oh dear :-s

In reply to Red Rover:

>I'm presuming Stevie Haston is American?

no haven't you heard him swear, Americans can't swear like a brit, (oh yes they can swear alright but different)

In reply to Red Rover:
I'd like to see you tell Stevie that he's american, infact, I'd buy a ticket!!

In reply to lithos: I saw him rip into a french person (his missus) over an upside down slide carousell in stoke-on-trent once....(shudders)

In reply to Red Rover:


Eh? Where's this place on Britain were standards are significantly higher than Sheffield/eastern peak?


They are both less than F8a s hardly cutting edge in physial terms (put easily fall offable when on-sigting even for the talented).


British


Really? Where have you seen this. The only thing I've seen was one piece by some blogger whihc was re-published on here. Any other examples of this widespread criticism of British climbing by Americans?


Again, really? I thought they were unfailingly polite about British climbing. I'm not sure of the point of your last comment, they couldn't go everywhere and given the weather they didn't do too badly.

In reply to liz j: Ah OK my mistake oops dont I look stupid now

In reply to Red Rover:

He's probably the most exceptional ALL ROUND british climber of his generation.

In reply to Tyler: Team America were very polite but I'm sure I read in one of their reports that they fond the routes overhyped, and there might not be places where standards are as high as Sheffield (I dont know) but there are places where the routes are less likely to be highball problems for somebody else (many places like this in the Peak, and on grit).

Anyway sorry Stevie for thinking you were American I jumped to conclusions and put my foot in it (spectacularly). There's nothing wrong with the food though!

In reply to stp:

In reply to stp:
I want to see this 4m E8; I can hit 4m off the deck with a one step wall run and an E8 tick would sound pretty good.

In reply to Red Rover: Oh dear, you really should keep up. Matt Segal (of Team America) has been back to climb in Pembroke and N Wales. And he was very complimentary about both areas.

In reply to Graeme Alderson: OK fair enough, havnt really been following things lately.

In reply to Reach>Talent:

There's an E4 6b route at Stanage called Harvest. I'd like to see you top out on it from the deck!

In reply to Reach>Talent:

"The angel's share" at Black Rocks gets E8 and is about 6 metres high although the route length is 8 metres. I'll buy you a pint if you can do it. ;oP

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Be fair, you've got to climb Terrazza Crack to get to the start of it!

In reply to Red Rover:

Not only insular Brit-centric bollocks but a bad example too! One of the harder routes at Wimberry was done by Kevin Thaw, who has been resident in Bishop (I think) for many years. He might still have a British passport (Mick Ryan would know) but could equally be regarded as american.

In reply to stp:

Spot on about the food.

Enty

In reply to lithos:
I have head hes - Llanench with a twist of smokeise

In reply to Enty:

No it isn't. We have proper chips and pies.
Mmmm

In reply to stp:

I agree, apart from the food.

Food in the UK is very similar to other countries with respect to eating out - if you go to the right places, it's excellent but also easy to find truly awful places.

Eating in is another matter - whilst there are many very able domestic cooks in the UK, sourcing really good, fresh, varied ingredients is hard. Just look at the fish counter of a mainstream Spanish or French supermarket compared to Tesco/Waitrose/Sainsbury/etc. I'm not saying the ingreduients don't exist here, just that they're much harder to get.

Regarding the climbing, I think he's right. The recent Japanese and American visits show that our Peak climbs are not really cutting-edge any longer.

However, if your main purpose in climbing is enjoyment and variety in beautiful places, then it really, really doesn't matter and the UK is fantastic.

So I think he's mostly right, but mostly irrelevant.

J

In reply to stp:
>. You know an E8 in the Peak District can be four meters high!

Last Peak guidebook series I worked on a route had to be at least 8mt to be considered a route, before that it's just a boulder problem?

In reply to lithos:

Actually Stevie is Maltese, English by default though.

In reply to stp:

I agree with most of what Stevie is saying, albeit he is doing so in typical explosive fashion and massaging his own achievements more than a little..

It would be something of a surprise if Europeans didnt crank harder overall, given better diet, a more active sports culture, more sun, more acceptance of sports climbing, closer proximity to big inspiring mountains, etc, etc, etc.

But there is no doubt that there is much that is great about British climbing. The recent foreign rampage on the grit tells you two things; firstly that these routes are very accessible for anyone from a hard bouldering/highballing background but also, crucialy, that these are very captivating and attractive challenges to many foreigners. But it's also telling that Macleod and Birkett E9s dont get the same treatment...

To the younger posters, Stevie Haston defo knows what he's talking about; as a top-end performer both here and abroad for the last 30 years he's well-placed to assess the changes which have undoubtedly occurred. He's always been an absolute training monster, a great all-rounder and probably the crucial driving-force in putting modern-style mixed climbing on the map. Respect is due.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


Really? AFAIK there are no decent statistics available but anyone who travels much to climb will know that even the most famed UK climbing areas like Llanberis or the Sheffield side of the Peak have insignificant volumes of foreign climber traffic compared to Yosemite, Font, Ceuse, Siurana, Indian Creek, Squamish, Tonsai, etc

In reply to tobyfk:


Agreed, undoubtedly. But the point was that there is something there which is valued and appreciated.

In reply to Frank4short:

He's certainly up there with the best of them. Just consider his achievements for a second; he's had first ascents of iconic British routes such as Master's Edge, Cenotaph Corner, Indian Face, Echo Wall and The Nose on El Cap; he was the first man to swim the English Channel and, not content with that, he went on to swim La Manche too; he was narrowly beaten by Yuri Gagarin as the first man to orbit Earth on a bike; he was instrumental in the reunification of Germany; he's spent longer at number one than the Beatles AND - as if that little lot wasn't enough - he still commands a first team place in midfield for Liverpool and England! My advice to RedRover would be to take a look at Stevie's face, remember it and in future think things over and get your facts right before spouting your mouth off and making yourself look foolish:

http://tinyurl.com/yhha9xa

In reply to stp:
Bloody hell, D J Viper is unmasked, he really could have done Indian Face.

Seriously nothing really controversial there, just a blokes opinions.
Cheers Beds

In reply to Tyler:


North Wales?

In reply to stp:

There is no sitting on the fence in a Stevie Haston piece, is there ? His articles, when I used to buy the mags, were always readable because there was always some solid opinion.

Just looking at the climbing level by UK climbers this year, he probably has a point. How many F9as have Brits done this year, apart from his ? has Steve Mac done any ? Compare that with reports of French 14 year olds climbing F9a and you can see where he is coming from.

As to the food, well you get what you pay for.

In reply to stp:

Hmmm.

In reply to Graeme Alderson:


I hadn't heard about that but from his blog its sounds like he was very very impressed with Pembroke:
"one of the most inspiring climbing destinations I’ve ever been to: the sea cliffs of Pembroke in South Wales. Its breath taking, absolutely amazing limestone located right over the crashing sea."

Doh. I really have to get there myself now - after it gets lauded by a well travelled foreign climber!

I also like this bit:
"I was also amazed at how much passive gear I used in Pembroke, I think I placed more stoppers on one pitch then I did on all of El Capitan, super funny!"

all at: http://www.mattsegal.com/?p=326

In reply to Enty:


It is like saying that the sum total of French cooking is finding something under a rock and sticking an overpowering sauce on it. British chefs certainly don't fair too badly in the Michelin star stakes.

In reply to stp: Utter dross. Conceited, inflamatory, incorrect, in all respects worthless. The guy should stick to climbing.
He comes across as having a huge pom frit on his shoulder, constantly trying to get UK climbers back for some real or imagined slight. Raging inferiority complex?
Did I really say that? One good flame deserves another

In reply to stp: It's also rather rich of Steve to slate the whole of the UK climbing scene for overhyping, considering the two onsights and hefty downgrade Bam Bam has just recieved. Pot kettle black etc.

The assertion that anyone in their right mind would be in the least bit surprised if Ondra (the world's best climber)were to piss the UK's harder trad routes if he wished to is frankly preposterous. Of course he would, they don't call him the best climber in the world because he's good at lawn tennis!!

In reply to Boy:

I'm intrigued at your suggestion that Stevie Haston might have an inferiority complex. Given his achievements over the years, I suspect he's pretty confident about his abilities.

I'm reminded of Dave MacLeod's comments when he did Blind Vision:
"One thing I can’t understand though after visiting the Climbing Works (well done guys BTW!) during one of the washout days is why routes like Blind Vision haven’t had stacks of ascents. The hardest trad routes in the UK in general really aren’t that hard! There are so many strong lads and lassies kicking around who would mince up the likes of Parthian, Blind Vision, Rhapsody etc etc… At the Climbing Works I saw many many climbers much stronger than me. What has happened to the Mick Fowler attitude of “how hard can it be?” " (http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_archive.html )

There does seem to be an idea that there are some routes which are well-nigh untouchable - and then someone, usually not a local, comes along and touches the untouchable, and all of a sudden it's a bit less special. I wonder if there's an element of preserving myths, in order to attach a certain mystique and drama to the whole exercise of climbing hard routes which in some ways actually holds things back?

In reply to tony: Wikipedia - Inferiority Complex: "Such feelings can arise from an imagined or actual inferiority in the afflicted person. It is often subconscious, and is thought to drive afflicted individuals to overcompensate, resulting either in spectacular achievement or extreme schizotypal behavior, or both."

In reply to Reach>Talent:


I somewhat suspect Stevie's comments about British food relate more to the likes of food available in the average british caf versus say the typical french bistro, & the same in supermarkets as opposed to in the areas of haute cousine. In such cases on balance there is no doubt the food is better on the continent, it's certainly easier to find better food at least. Just for the record there are approximately two & a half times the number of michelin stars in france than the uk.

In reply to Boy:

I agree, it all sounds like a big load of hot air.

Plenty of euro types could no doubt piss up Echo Wall or some such, **if** they were trad climbers rather than sports climbers.

Isn't that rather the point of sports climbing, so you can push yourself harder physically?

Two different games; it's a bit like moaning about how Colin Macrae wasn't much cop at F1.

In reply to Frank4short:

I'm sure Stevie dines out at Michelin star restaurants all the time!

In reply to Boy:

Don't let it bother you. It's absolutely typical drivel of a certain class of expats. It hasn't changed in the 40 years I've heard it. And to think they get to vote in our elections. Fortunately not all of the British abroad go on like that.

In reply to Tom Briggs: I'd imagine living off of 800 calories a day stevie was more likely living off of the mixed leaves in his garden. Maybe when he's done his 9b project he'll be back in those michelin star restaurants.

In reply to tony: for sure: so many people, myself included, are held back by history and our ever-daunting adjectival grading system. the BMC international meets produce a reasonable number of ascents of routes that rarely get done by those of relatively modest ability. the foreign climbers get up them because, yes, they are good (but not 'that' good) and because they dont have the baggage that goes with E6/7 hanging over them or the hearsay / myth that accompanies the easier hard trad we have...

In reply to stp:

It's interesting to see how quickly people are jumping on the defensive. Based on what? *With notable exceptions*, the general attitude to climbing in the UK doesn't lend itself to top-end physical performance, and that's reflected in the physical difficulty of routes being climbed. There are a few people operating near top-end physically, but really not many - the same names continually crop up.

Leave the protection ethics out of if for a second, and you realise that Brits are pretty weak (in general). How many folk are there in the UK actually training for climbing - and I mean seriously training, in a structured way. Compare that with other sports. Attitudes on the continent are different, as Stevie knows from first-hand experience, with the result that physical standards are higher. That's just a fact.

The "but what's he ever done on grit" mentality is just Brits burying their heads in the sand. The continentals could just as easily say "but what have they ever done on limestone", and in the majority of cases that's about 6a+... http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/graphs.html

Ben

In reply to tony: I remember reading MacLeod's comments at the time, and thinking that what he's missing is that most people aren't all-rounders like him and have little or no interest in climbing these hard trad lines. No doubt they could (the boulder problem part of Blind Vision was repeated several times last winter for example) but they don't have any motivation to.

I don't think people think of these routes as untouchable, rather they think of them as challenges for someone else; most of the good climbers know the difficulties involved in these routes (Parthian pumpy 8a climbing, The Promise 7B+ boulder problem, Equilibrium long 7C+ boulder problem, etc) but aren't motivated by them.

In reply to stp: He may well be right. Who cares? Was this interview by any chance just after his route had been downgraded?

In reply to TimS:

Interesting comment. I thought it had been a pretty good winter with regards to routes on the grit. What with Ryan Pasquill, Jordan Buys, James Pearson etc. and more recently Miles Gibson putting up and/or repeating numerous E9 7a's

Away from grit you've had people like Caff doing Mission Impossible - f8b on trad gear (and Steve McClure going for the onsight of it), I note a new E8 from Dave Birkett in the Lakes, Dave MacLeod himself has put up some E7/8/9's this year.

With regard to sport climbing I think its just so much harder to project the really hard stuff in this country but I have noticed a distinct increase in the number of f8c/+'s being repeated this year (Pete Robins, Paul Smitton, Stu Littlefair, Tom Bolger, Gaz Parry etc. etc.). Of course Steve McClure has done both Hubble and his new stamina-fest link up at f8c+ at Malham too (amongst other things). Certainly seems no shortage of inspiration out there...

In reply to Frank4short:

But France is 2.75 times the size of the UK, (although I do admit, they only have about 4,000,000 more people living there than the UK)

N

In reply to chris_j_s: I took MacLeod's point to be about the Peak in particular, and not that stuff wasn't getting done, but that there were lots of people who could do these things if they were inspired to

Also you say etc etc in your sport list, I can't think of too amny out of that handful that have done 8c/+ this year (what did Gaz do?)

In reply to Nigel R Lewis:


Do you not think that's the more relevant figure considering michelin stars are something that are in effect awarded to people not land masses. This really merits a thread of it's own as opposed to being a tangent on this one.

In reply to Nigel R Lewis: Japan has more Michelin stars than France. Make of that what you will

In reply to chris_j_s:

It seems trendy at the moment to use the E grade system to have a go at UK climbers. There has been some odd use of it but it works, by and large, climbers keep doing harder practiced ascents and on-sight - witness Dave M's near flash of that Welsh route.

In reply to TimS:

Okay, fair point re the number of inspired individuals.

To be clear, when I said 8c/+ I was meaning anything in the ball park of 8c - 8c+ rather than specifically climbs with a split grade. Gaz has done three 8c's this year (according to 8a anyway)

True North Kilnsey / North Buttress
Malsoñando El Bovedon / Cueva
Espacio Tiempo Sella / Wild Side

Of the others on the list Pete R did Liquid Ambar 8c/+, Stu L did Mecca Extension 8c, Paul S did Hajj 8c/+ & Baa Baa Black sheep 8c+.

Tom B has been on fire this year...
Arresto perpetua, Cadena perpetua, Cadena a Muerte, Fabelita - all 8c
Santa Lena - 8c/+

I also missed Stewart Watson who did Mordor 8c+/9a

In reply to Ben Darvill:

Very nicely put. Must remember that.

In reply to chris_j_s:

Isn't this just his point ? Brits making a song and dance over E8/9s which is a 23 year old grade (remember E9 was also put up on grit by a Japanese kid only just in his teens)! same with F8c. In the global scheme of things these are not as significant as we like to think they are.

In reply to GrahamD:

I'm not saying we're leading the world by any stretch just that I've noticed an increase in the number of brits climbing at that level this year. 8c/+ really isn't that far behind 9a/+ at all (I would know obviously!) and considering how much more difficult it is to project hard lines in this country with the poor weather I don't think we're as rubbish as Stevie makes out.

My perception is that there is a healthy number of climbers in this country operating up to 8b too, and no doubt a number of those will step up a level to join or even surpass the 8c/+ club over the next couple of years or so.

One day I will project Rainshadow followed by Violent New Breed and take the step up to the next level... Then I'll wake up with a start, head downstairs to eat a calorific breakfast and wander up to the crag to work on my 7a+ project!!

In reply to stp: Stevie Haston obviously knows f*ck all about eating out in britain.

In reply to Reach>Talent:

I know, but like others have said - for the 99.99% of daily food which isn't Michelin starred, every country I've visited in Europe has better food than the UK.
I'm talking about everyday stuff - my 3 year old daughter had sauted spuds, ratatouille and a filet of hake for her school dinner today.

When I visit family in Lancashire and they suggest some pub grub I usually decline unless we can go to an Indian - terrible innit?

Enty

In reply to chris_j_s: i dont think the "good weather, inspiring cliffs, abundant partners and generally more forgiving climbing style" thing can be over-estimated; im confident that most people would significantly up their sport grade (onsight and redpoint) with sufficient time (and i dont mean years) surrounded by like-minded, inspired folk in the right environment. so much of our sport is, to put it simply, tricky and often fairly esoteric (with some major exceptions it must be said); our grades are typically more demanding too which, along with the often technical style and other factors mentioned above, combine to make progress less than straightforward.

add to this the fact that we generally value trad over sport (and not without reason but we should all seek a balance for the health of our climbing) and bring a trad mentality to sport we rarely get to push on sport as we should.

lecture over

In reply to Frank4short:

Done.

Enty

In reply to ksjs: and on the subject of food, the UK is very poor but we only have ourselves to blame: the over-priced crap (re-heated, bought-in, defrosted, artificial, dull and homogenous) that gets served by people who cant cook in way too many restaurants (and i use the term loosely) across the land is a shame and an embarassment

In reply to ksjs:

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that folks who have picked up on Haston's complains about British food have missed the real thrust of his comments?


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Not really, we should all make the effort to say something different every once in a while.

Problem is that Stevie doesn't heed this advice, does he?

In reply to Chris Craggs: All I see is the comments from a man who historically likes to stir things up whether for fun or for fiscal reasons and more often than not has been proven right AND wrong over time. I personally find his rants a good laugh, but on the scale of things in life it really isnt worth spending too much time pondering on it. Im sure its no coiincidence that he keeps his rants for when he is climbing at his best.

He is right in some aspects of his rant though, the peak has been exposed for what many people have suspected over the last couple of decades. Grossly hyped and overgraded routes which swamped the media for a long long time.

Jamie Bankhead, the real visionary for modern dry tooling style mixed was Jeff Lowe, but this form of climbing has been shown to be a blind alley and really not that impressive in the 21st century (im not knocking stevie, but I will never forget his attack on scottish winter back in the 90's! and I even lined his pocket by going to his lecture in Glasgow when I was skint)

In reply to Erik B:


Interesting comment. What exactly do you mean, and what kinds of routes are you referring to? Thanks.

In reply to Erik B:

I don't think he meant that the Peak was overgraded within the confines of the UK system, just that the UK system gave us Brits a false impression of how hard these routes really are for top flight climbers from other countries.

In reply to Chris Craggs: i think youre right but in the conext of the "Stevie's just having a go at the UK generally" comments, it is worth pointing out that there are way too many generally awful places in the UK and an almost wilful ignorance, from owners, staff and paying public, that this shouldnt be the default

In reply to Clauso:


LOL

You left out his dicovery of the Missing Link, his humnitarian services in the third world, his brokering of many peace accords and his medical research into finding cures for cancer and AIDS.

In reply to GrahamD: same thing!!!

qwerty, blind alley as in it has become apparent that modern sport mixed isnt the future of winter climbing, eg strong sports rock climber can piss up M12 having had no experience of winter climbing. The future of winter climbing is more along the scottish style of groundup with gear placed on the lead.

In reply to Erik B:

Isthat your opinion, or do you think that's actually a trend worldwide? My main experience of foreign climbing reporting comes from Vertical magazine, and there's probably been far more features to date on big mixed and ice lines than trad winter stuff, although the article they did do on Scotland a while back was very good.

In reply to stp:
Well, his views may or may not be justified (food aside), but personally I don't particularly care what goes on at his level - I'm not being arsey, it's just that I'm not particularly engaged at that level. Nor do I care whether 'British' climbing is healthier as a sport than 'French' or whatever, because I don't really regard climbing as a national competition (my personal view, obviously). I do care about being able to get out and climb whatever I can haul my lardy arse up, whenever I want to, but if Stevie Haston has reached a level where he no longer finds climbing in Britain satisfactory then I salute his achievement and wish him well. Most of the rest of us have still got a way to go.

In reply to stp:

I think he talks a lot of sense in that interview and it wasn't half as inflammatory as I expected. I like it better when he really gets stirring.
His last few routes have been amazingly inspiring-
He's strong, he's got the head sorted.
Echo Wall now Stevie?

In reply to Enty:


I guess you haven't been to Finland, Sweden or Norway then! Any decent pub grub in the UK is better than what's on offer here outside of downtown Helsinki.

In reply to AJM: It's a feeling that was first put forward in Climbing I think by one of the very strong N. American climbers (sorry can't remember his name or if he was a yank or a Canuck). It's when people like this chap and Gadd stopped using spurs because they said you could just hang off them forever and get rest (albeit, upside down rests!).

I think both you are Erik are both sort of right. Octopussy - Lowe's route that really started the whole M game - was very hard moves across rock to get to some wild ice - and I think the best mixed routes now are still like that: you might need to be able to do M10 but then not get yourself killed on the WI6 or 7 you swing on to. See routes like Jasper's Flying Circus. The bolted caves with no ice involved is maybe the blind alley - it looks silly anyway if impressive - but then climbers are onsighting M7 and M8 on multiday mountain routes now with strength they got from that, but you still need the alpine/Scottish experience as well.

In reply to Erik B:


Agreed, but a bit of M12 mileage does no harm at all for onsighting at the highest level.

In reply to Erik B:

I hold Jeff Lowe in equally stratospheric regard; watching him style M9 in leashed Pulsars is the perfect anecdote to leahless evangelists!

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Who is leah and what's she got to do with it

In reply to stp: the man makes his living by climbing and sponsorship,you know what they say NO PUBLICITY IS BAD PUBLICITY ..

In reply to Al Evans:

It's good to know that if swearing ever becomes an Olympic discipline, Malta will have a chance for a gold medal.

In reply to Rob Davies:

He'll be less arsey once he recovers a bit of weight!

In reply to Red Rover:


Please don't discuss food. Stevie on this is correct - no discussion. Talk about grades and rock, but as far as food is concerned ...

P.S. I now live in Italy and not only that, my wife is from Emilia Romagna, and if that doesn't mean anything - well, you need to visit a civilized country (and eat).

In reply to stp:

Just a detail.

I am always impressed with the great respect that so many Italian climbers have for GB climbing - as soon as say I am from Britain typically their eyes light up with admiration for Scottish ice climbing and Brit clean rock ethics, and most of them say how much they would like to visit and climb in the UK (some have already been and done loads), which is great for me as an old tatty Brit living in Italy, however there are moments when I am talking to people who have soloed some of the hard routes on the S face of the Marmolada and routinely do 300 m euro grade 5 and 6 ice routes and I feel as though I should warn them that that sort of thing simply doesn't exist in Britain ...

Brits are historically among the world's best climbers, but typically their greatest achievements are outside the UK. In more recent times there has been closer interest in what is achieved "at home", on a smaller scale, which is perfectly valid and admirable, but should not lead to blindness to reality. Achivements on the continent and in the USA are simply ahead of anything achieved in the UK.

In reply to Gavin Taylor:


Broadly agree, but cant see anything remotely comparable to Echo Wall anywhere else in the world.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Meltdown?

In reply to stp: he does make me laugh, i think only stevie can get away with a statement like this, and there probably is a fair amount of truth in what he has said.,i know what he means about the grit, i love the stuff to bits, but if i had to choose a necky route anywhere, it would be on the grit rather than anywhere else, i do wonder if you get more bang for your buck on the grit nowadays, anyway thats another subject intirely! keep on going stevie, your good entertainment , and i can only hope i`m climbing to even half your standard when i`m a grandad!
p.s. steve, go to the `lobster pot` if you ever get to anglesey, it might just rekindle your desire for a belly!

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Yes, I was being a bit provocative (full of white wine but also in keeping with the o.p.), Brit climbing has impressive high points, but the island mentality is a reality - perhaps it's better that way?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


The 9a big wall done by the Pou brothers in Spain recently? The gear was preplaced with draws on it (I think), but the pitch was A3 on stacked pegs and copperheads originally, so I doubt it was up to much anyway!

Not approached in an identical way, but certainly got to be up there in the "hard dangerous and unbolted" category. And with another 4-5 pitches in the 8s around that to boot!

In reply to Gavin Taylor:

I can only assume that you and Stevie had mums who were crap cooks

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Similar in what way? The grade the FAers have given them, but that's about it as far as I can see.

In reply to timjones:

I think my old mum was actually above average, but alas, she was trapped within her cultural context.

In reply to Gavin Taylor:

And do you honestly believe that the cultural context is the same today?

In reply to Gavin Taylor: I wish my mum was above average, she is and always has been sh*t at cooking. I had to endure slops for years as a kid. She was always so afraid of giving us food poisoning that everything was cooked to death

In reply to timjones:

No. As far as home cooking goes, my impression is that it is slightly better in some ways, worse in others. I have ranks of relatives in the UK so I am periodically updated.

However, noting the start of a decline even in Italy (the culinary max) I suspect that it's just a question of time before everyone will be eating hideous processed stuff with shockingly strong added flavourings.

In reply to stp:

Yes, Stevie is correct about Britain.

In reply to stp:

Not everything.

Grading system - agreed, the E-grade system is nonsense.

Climbing elite - I have no idea... but I have to say most of the comments I hear about UK climbing usually refer to Hard Grit!! How old is that now...!?

Food - don't agree. In London at least, the mid-range food has improved a huge amount in the past 3-4 years. I was very impressed with the offerings when I went back in July. Japanese lunch (sushi, sashimi etc) available as good as many Japanese restaurants out here for about GBP10 as one example.

Weather - well there's not much which can be done about that...

In reply to stp: hello people, just thought I,d clear some points up. I cant believe that a simple interview which is accurate in every way could have stirred up such a hornets nest, perhaps some people should just admit that they dont like me and leave it at that, eh Boy. I cant help it that there are a few very short E8s in the peak, its just a fact, sorry. Equally the food in Britain is not very good (especialy to people who normally would read Planet mountain-they're Italian. Anyway most people seem to agree with what I said, so....
Bam Bam was graded by Leigh Mcginly as was reported on here (so perhaps the moderater boy should read his own firms blurb first) before getting his nickers in a twist. Liegh graded it E8 6b; it may well have for me, without chalk (its plastered in chalk as its so overhanging) it might be found to be very demanding, as Caff said with chalk and much cleaner E7 6b(again why dont you read what is posted as news here Boy). Anyway much ado about nothing, Bam Bam has had 3 ascents all raving about it, I here it might get another ascent, Leigh and I are stoked.
To Wee Dave, Echo Wall looks very good, I,d like to try it, but you know about benighted Scotland and its inclement weather, shame as its a great looking climb.
Oh please keep the silly comments coming, my family and friends nearly had fits when I was accused of having an inferiority complex, try a Napoleon complex, yep that might fit.
Stevie

In reply to Stevie Haston:

Well you're making me laugh on a pish business day so that's very good

Bill

In reply to Stevie Haston:

I reckon the main shift has been away from the Peak over the last 20 years or so, onto more varied locations such as sea cliffs and back to the bigger mountain settings. Maybe this is UK climbers spending more time in the US and Europe.

Would stuff like If 6 were 9 and even Divided Years be a completely differant challenge to a foreign rock star than say Equilibrium? Yes, the Peak has seen a lot of overseas climbers come and blitz some sacred routes, and it is good to see and hear a differant view onthe grading, but the more "esoteric" but no loess improtant routes have been surprisingly off radar.

Our food is alright, I reckon you just don't like fish and can only handle a korma.

In reply to Stevie Haston: NAPOLEON COMPLEX! class, pmsl!!!!!

In reply to Stevie Haston: Like I said, one good flame/shit-stir deserves another. Glad you and family enjoyed reading it. I enjoyed writing it. Stevie, me old fruit, I honestly don't dislike you, I don't know you. From what I know of you I admire your climbing and find your remarks tedious but sometimes amusing, in roughly equal measure. Who would you rage against without critics? The last thing you look like needing is more people queuing up to lick your boots.
"Accurate in every way", you say? What are all these 4m E8s? The shortest one I can think of is Angel's Share which is an 8m route put up and graded 15 years ago by Dawes. Hardly a stick to beat the current generation with! So where are the other short E8s? Surely you have a good breadth of knowledge to be brandishing such accusations.
I'm sure you said you though Bam Bam was roughly 7c and James said roughly 7a+, but could be mistaken. No matter, I only said it to get a rise really.

Moderator boy.

In reply to John Rushby:


Yes, it would be more challenging for them to find them in condition during a short stay

In reply to Stevie Haston: an inferiority complex, try a Napoleon complex


A Napoleon complex is a type of inferiority complex, shortarse

In reply to stp:

Blah blah....Britsh climbing....overgrading....overinflated E grades....Europeans climbers are so much better....so and so from Spain could do every trad route in the British Isles in a day....

I'm bored of this debate, it's trotted out every time someone from a different country comes to Britain and does a climb more easily that a Brit. Who cares? People who argue this should just deal with the fact that some people are going to overhype things and the people who overhype things should just deal with the fact that there are almost always going to be people who are better than them.

I seem to remember hearing about Dave Graham (hasn't he climbed 5.15a more than once?) backing off Ulysees at Stanage despite having a stack of pads.....

In reply to Andrew Barker:


Seems perfectly rational. He's already got the sponsors, the grades and the chicks. Why risk a broken ankle to impress a few whining insular Brits?

In reply to tobyfk: And so thats why you climb is it?

In reply to Boy:
The Promise fits the category pretty well, I think. About 7 metres of climbing and originally graded E10. 4m might be stretching the point a little.

In reply to tobyfk:


....on a Font 6c+

There, done that for you, you seemed not to have finished the sentence

In reply to Tyler:

The relatively lowly grade (for him) proves the point that he would have done it easily had he been motivated.

In reply to stp: Ok today is a rest day, nothing to do, so. Angles Share E8 is firstly very beautiful climbing, secondly the climbing is finished after your feet are 4 meters off the ground( nowadays of course probably 3.8 meters due to health and safety regs and multiple mats) thirdly in wales it would be called a boulder problem. Absolutly no offence intended. The Promise -I have no real knowledge as its after my gritstone time, it looks really short. Now then we know Britain has for the most part not really got very good food, but we also know they no idea what a meter is. In France pitches are often measured just vertically in Britain there are some very generous lengths(bishop to actress and all that). In Font which some of you are very familiar with theres much harder stuff(ofcourse) than A.S or the Promise and higher. No offense intended at all. If you read the peace in Planet Mountain I make it very clear about the fantastic diverity of climbing in UK etc. I would love to come back and try some hard routes but the weather is bad (normally) I hope everybody is out having a good time in the good weather now. Tape measures ofcourse also come in metric nowadays. Ps Jonhy dawes had further to fall(a very graceful slab climber who left a great many routes ) Stevie

In reply to Stevie Haston: They use metres in France, not meters

In reply to Graeme Alderson: No they do use meters, they have them for measuring electricity, water etc (actually that might be a compteur)

Tape measures ofcourse also come in metric nowadays.

Brilliant, hey Stevie, just reading the biography of J.W.Puttrell and in one of his descritions of a 1000ft route there is a line
"Traverse to a ledge about 24 feet to the left".

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

No, they are more likely to use meters, considering the hegemony of American culture around the world.

In reply to Gavin Taylor:

American bouldering has quite a heritage of highball ascents. Forty-seven years ago in 1961, the father of modern bouldering, John Gill, established The Thimble in the Needles of the Black Hills of South Dakota. Gill bouldered out this 30ft granite needle ground-up without roped rehearsal and of course without bouldering pads; in fact there was a wooden guard rail at the base of this needle making any fall very spicey. It weighed in at a highball V4, and may have been the USA's first 5.12 (E4/5).

The evolution in style of how established highball boulder problems are climbed continues at Bishop's Peabody boulders in the Buttermilk Country.

Jason Kehl's Evilution V12, on the 50ft high Grandpa Peabody boulder is described as 'one of the best problems on earth' and its direct version by Tony Lamiche (Evilution Direct V11) is of a similar quality. Until recently many ascents of these hard superblocs or super highballs have involved rehearsal on a top rope before solo, as were the first ascents; with protection provided by a stacked mountain of bouldering pads on the compacted sand at the base.

Wills Young a co-author of the Bishop Bouldering has pondered that these problems to be around English E8. Wills adds to the descriptions, 'bring all the crash pads in Bishop, and a wheelchair.' However he has said that with lots of pads an E-grade is not appropriate for these particular problems.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=45550

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=45530

There are lots and lots of links to highballs in the USA and elsewhere.

In reply to Gavin Taylor:


try saying that to a french


for instance, remember they are (proudly) the only european country outside NATO. not that it is a matter of culture, but it's related somehow

In reply to ghisino:

Guess again...

In reply to ghisino:

This is probably as bizarre as Stevie's comments about British food having a contribution to British climbing standads. It's also not true. France rejoined the NATO military structure earlier this year.

In reply to stp: hello, interesting point Mick. But probably more relavent are the problems done without mats that are harder than the Thimble, theres one at Flag V8 really bad landing about as high as the Promise up a slightly overhanging seem, it got a few ground up ascents befor mats, years ago. Font is full of hard stuff and the early Wako(sp) stuff all pre mat. Hey Graham be careful, you know how insecure I am about my spelling, and as Napolian is my middle name I should defo have not used the USA spelling. But you know theres Grit and Grit, some obvious soft touches, and some nails other stuff, and some of the older Northumberland sandstone must be bold and hard too. A funny story of theory rennault the great french alpinist, is how he always used to say Garbage Edge instead of Burbage, and then innocently hide behind his french accent as the peakies would go red with rage. Theres a few short E8 in wales, too, unless people think I,m being unkind, and some easy ones too. A bit like if you want to do a perf sport climbing you go to Spain or Kali. Stevie

In reply to Gavin Taylor:

The americans use feet and inches.

In reply to graeme jackson:
sometimes they use metre's as well.

sometimes they use both together........

In reply to AJM:
>

Im basing this on comments from the likes of Dave Macleod and the Canadians. To give you an idea of what Macleod thinks the future of winter climbing is, last season he made a remarkeable attempt at climbing a snow,rime and verglas covered E8 6b on Ben Nevis. Im sure he'll get it done this season.I know of another project he has in mind and it is absolutely insane.

In reply to Erik B: You know Erik you bang this arguement out time after time. Modern mixed I am sorry is here to stay, in fact without it boys like Dave Mac wouldnt be using the axes they use, get it. Who designed these axes? Was it Scots people, no Erik, it wasnt. Scotland has what it has -good clasic stuff-a pleasure to climb when its there, Europe has more. Modern mixed is alive and very well, thank you very much, and good routes will be done every where. Anyway back to breakfast with the brother in law, a bacon buttie, which he says is a french invention. Come to my next lecture Eric.Stevie

In reply to Stevie Haston: Bacon butty french? Is that the level of French free thinking? A slice of cooked pig between a couple of bits of bread? Next you're going to tell me that they invented putting an Egg with Bacon too...

In reply to stp: I'm actually starting to like this Haston fella now :-D Still not going to any lectures. I'd prefer to go pick a fight with the crazy man outside the Spar. That's free

In reply to Stevie Haston: believe it or not I am a man of the world, norwegian mother and all that, I am not a parochial Scot. Modern bolted mixed has its place, the euros love it, its civilised, its usually sunny, its safe, its fun (I know I know, your routes where bold with shite pegs) nice axes, tights, Italian ponsey boots with spikes and gymnastic styles of winter climbing evolved as a result. but it isnt the future in terms of winter climbing standards and style. And Scotland isnt the future, far from it. I would say Norway is but I am biased. The scottish style and ethic is though. Shame Jasper bolted that norwegian monster last season.

Your lecture was good, and there was no hostility, the Glaswegians are a pretty tolerant bunch (unless football is involved), but I was hoping for some drunken heckling. If anything your abuse in the 90's spurred on a new generation of scottish winter climbers, so well done. PS your lecture is only 1 of 2 climbing lectures that I have ever attended and I wont be attending any more. Id much rather spend my cash on beer and nicotine. I must add that I am very jealous of your lifestyle and where you live, but please stop reminding us, 21st Century not-so-Great Britain is truely awful.

In reply to Erik B:Hello Eric, just finished sorting out the 15kg of sea Bass, and 5 kg of spider crab, if you were here you could have some?Ok, Norway yes, incredible stuff I have a few slides, wow.Expensive place. The norwegian ethic is a bit strick, I was a bit confused when I was there, about it. The Scotish ethic is a joke, some people have been pure otheres are snow whites covered in coal dust, top roping , pre placed gear, pre placed turf(my favorite), a bit like most climbing really we all abuse and stretch things dont we, oxygen on Everest, you get my point. I,ll buy you a pint, when in Glasgow. The Hastons were once thought to be from Norway, there arent many of us about, but there are an awful loy of Hansens. cheers, Stevie

In reply to Stevie Haston:

Inspired comment about the tools and mixed, I agree.

In reply to Erik B:

Brits love the bolted mixed too, more and more every year.

In reply to Stevie Haston:

I don't care to get into a discussion about the climbing but the food is another thing entirely.

I ask anyone to read this and not start salivating uncontrollably:
http://www.orwell.ru/library/articles/cooking/english/e_dec

Orwell only mentions the half of it. Mushrooms picked from the forest, the game that comes in after the glorious twelfth, homemade steak and kidney pudding, good lobscouse I could go on and on and on.

If you say that English cooking is bad then you're simply not trying hard enough or eating too often in greasy spoons like Pete's Eats.

In reply to Stevie Haston: all ethics are a joke if they are not adhered to, but the truth usually outs with time.

Im sure you live in an outdoorsman's paradise but Im just back from spending some time with my parents at their own wee version of paradise on the beautiful west coast, there are few places on earth which can compete. The autumnal colours reflecting on the sea, the inner hebrides on the horizon, sharp and intense clarity of light, migrating geese and even the first dustings of snow on the high tops are a joy to behold. Ill swap you some of your sea bass for some rather large prawns (or languestines as they pretentiously seem to be called now) from Sandy the fisherman.

By the way, are you related to that now deceased sociopath Dougal?

In reply to Will Hunt:

I agree with you that great Brit dishes exist and are hypothetically possible (although wheeling in George Orwell is a bit of a stretch as regards contemoporary culinary standards), but the observations in the thread, alas, are simply empirical: being invited to somebody's home for a nosh, eating out cheap, eating out posh. Repeat the cycle often enough to be statistically relevant (which probably means living in, or at least visiting, a place for a few years) and then list in order of satisfaction.

A "cold" test is simply comparing the goods on sale in the supermarket. I remember a friend telling me how he walked around an American supermarket for half an hour before he found something he had the courage to eat.
Britain is better than that, but if things like tinned spaghetti, tinned ravioli are actually on sale, then people must be eating them. And the chemical flavoured crisps ... I used to eat all those things too, and enjoy them (like I used to enjoy listening to the Yes) - seems impossible now, almost like a racial memory of horror.

In reply to Gavin Taylor:


It's a rubbish test. There's plenty of quality stuff in supermarkets even in Northumberland and I recall plenty of crap in supmarkets in deepest rural France (Charente). There are loads of KFC's in Paris. etc etc

The bottom line is that there's plenty of quality food in the UK, as in all other European countries, it's just that it takes a bit more effort to get hold of it than it does to get hold of the crap.

We should have a separate thread for chemically poisoned foods being eaten by millions of children and it's effect on their behaviour.

Nowt wrong with Yes BTW. In small doses.

In reply to JDal:

Can you get Yes in small doses ? sorry - off topic.

In reply to GrahamD:

Good point. There are small doses of it which are very, very good IMHO.

This thread thundered off topic ages ago.

In reply to Moacs:

Hit the nail on the head for me!

In reply to Frank4short:

It seems to be a frequent misconception on here that food is better and cheaper on the continent. A group of 10 ate at our local Indian, dips, main course, side veg and rice, drinks and coffee for under £20 a head. if you want to eat cheaply try Whetherspoons, if you want to pay more there are plenty of middle/expensive restaurants.
As for fresh food, they may have bigger supermarkets but most of the goods are non food. the fresh veg sections are very small compared to Tesco/Asda over here and we have had great difficulty buying broccoli, spinach, squash, sweet potatoes in Spain and France.

In reply to stp:

my 2 cents:

haston and twight are both the grumpy old bastards of high-end english speaking climbing. outspoken, outraged, outright but never out of contact.

yep, theyre brash but they have the results to back up every word. id never want to fight the f*ckers, but id pay to be out there with them.

hastons totally got a point. british climbing is so bogged down 'ethics' and 'morals' that its forgotten how breaking the 'ethics and morals' are all part of evolution.
damn right dry tooling, bolting and mega-commitment are here to stay - and they will turn into other stuff eventually too.
the yanks seem to know this. the euros seem to know this. the japanese know it. jesus even the australians know it and they dont have mountains!

of course theres fine british climbers - but not a generation of them like there was before the mid-90s.
its not lack of exposure or fitness etc.
its rampant conservatism now that climbing is so accessible. twights punk attitude of climbing as expression has given way to climbing as a sport.

simple remedy is to simply refuse top sell gear to anyone too boring. get haston to write up the criteria, every gear shop gets a copy, you dont match up? shuffle over to the trekking section.

In reply to ice.solo:

They have bigger mountains than the UK